Elusive Mind

[Carighan.6758]

> @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

 

Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

>

> Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

>

 

Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

 

[Musty.3148]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

> >

> > Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

> >

>

> Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

>

 

What "similar functioning traits" are those? I'm curious.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Musty.3148" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

> > >

> > > Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

> > >

> >

> > Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

> >

>

> What "similar functioning traits" are those? I'm curious.

>

 

Not here to hold your hand scroll up you will see it mentioned a few times in this thread, and all the others mentioning EM.

[Musty.3148]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > > > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

> > > >

> > > > Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

> > >

> >

> > What "similar functioning traits" are those? I'm curious.

> >

>

> Not here to hold your hand scroll up you will see it mentioned a few times in this thread, and all the others mentioning EM.

 

Way to be a kitten about it. So you mean the one trait then Unhindered Combatant?

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Musty.3148" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > > > > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

> > > > >

> > > > > Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What "similar functioning traits" are those? I'm curious.

> > >

> >

> > Not here to hold your hand scroll up you will see it mentioned a few times in this thread, and all the others mentioning EM.

>

> Way to be a kitten about it. So you mean the one trait then Unhindered Combatant?

>

 

Yeah UC, not being a kitten, all the information is in this thread and within the last few pages, if you took the effort to comment then it would do well to read most of what has been said recently to get context and then you wouldn’t have to ask the question in first place, saving yourself and others time and energy.

[Musty.3148]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > > > > > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What "similar functioning traits" are those? I'm curious.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Not here to hold your hand scroll up you will see it mentioned a few times in this thread, and all the others mentioning EM.

> >

> > Way to be a kitten about it. So you mean the one trait then Unhindered Combatant?

> >

>

> Yeah UC, not being a kitten, all the information is in this thread and within the last few pages, if you took the effort to comment then it would do well to read most of what has been said recently to get context and then you wouldn’t have to ask the question in first place, saving yourself and others time and energy.

 

Fair enough I read most but it's a lot. :)

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have to ask you if you think UC's 10% damage reduction, 10% Condi damage reduction, 10 seconds of swiftness, extra 150 dodge distance, and stun break is equal to EM's stun break, condi clear and tiny speed boost (if you are going forward only). Correct me if i missed anything please. If you want to add exhaustion to EM then it needs to be brought up to the same caliber of UC imho.

[Blue.1207]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> Elusive mind is a good grand master trait. Grandmaster traits should be powerful. I don't think it needs to be changed at all. I do feel that certain mirage builds needs to be toned down in pvp, but i think that comes more from it's damage application, not stunbreaks of cleanses.

 

EM is arguably (and I will argue it), the most powerful trait in the entire game from a PvP perspective. Remember when ANET nerfed Rev's stab on dodge trait? Well this is that but on roids. No class, NO CLASS should have access to a double stun break on a 10 second cooldown that doubles as an evade, a condi cleanse AND a skill modifier.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Musty.3148" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > > > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > > > > > > In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Haha, that was my point exactly. Being bound to dodge, it is already on a CD, you can use it twice at maximum charge, and it has a per-charge cooldown. Works **exactly** like the ammo-based skills which are all over the place since PoF. No difference.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What "similar functioning traits" are those? I'm curious.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not here to hold your hand scroll up you will see it mentioned a few times in this thread, and all the others mentioning EM.

> > >

> > > Way to be a kitten about it. So you mean the one trait then Unhindered Combatant?

> > >

> >

> > Yeah UC, not being a kitten, all the information is in this thread and within the last few pages, if you took the effort to comment then it would do well to read most of what has been said recently to get context and then you wouldn’t have to ask the question in first place, saving yourself and others time and energy.

>

> Fair enough I read most but it's a lot. :)

>

> I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have to ask you if you think UC's 10% damage reduction, 10% Condi damage reduction, 10 seconds of swiftness, extra 150 dodge distance, and stun break is equal to EM's stun break, condi clear and tiny speed boost (if you are going forward only). Correct me if i missed anything please. If you want to add exhaustion to EM then it needs to be brought up to the same caliber of UC imho.

 

 

First UC wasn’t a Stunbreak, it cleared movement impairing Conditions ie Soft CCs. And he main complaint about UC was its Movement impairing removal, no one cared too much about the other effects.

 

You seem to be downplaying how powerful a Stunbreak on a 5-10 sec CD that’s also a Condi cleanse is, let’s look at recent history of the game, everyone cried about a 15 sec CD Stun Break it was nerfed to 20 secs, they cried about an 8 sec stunbreak it was nerfed to 12 secs.

[viquing.8254]

>Sorry but a Stun Break on a 5 to 10 Sec “CD” should not exist

What is worst, easy breakstunt access or easy stability access ?

Just to add salt because half whinner probably miss that their main had plenty cheesy mecanics against cc ?

[Carighan.6758]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

 

OTOH, plenty ammo-based effects **can already** be used back-to-back. So this isn't a universal trait of all of them.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Now thy just have to add Exhaustion to it When used and it breaks a CC, to keep it on parity to similar functioning traits.

>

> OTOH, plenty ammo-based effects **can already** be used back-to-back. So this isn't a universal trait of all of them.

>

 

Fun fact EM isn’t a trait that uses the Ammo System, another fun fact no trait uses the Ammo System only skills do, another fun fact Dodges aren’t Skills, any more false equivalencies for me to correct?

 

 

Again for the sake of parity they need to give exhaustion to EM for the same reason it was given to UC.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Fun fact EM isn’t a trait that uses the Ammo System, another fun fact no trait uses the Ammo System only skills do, another fun fact Dodges aren’t Skills, any more false equivalencies for me to correct?

 

And the factual differences are? A trait triggering from a dodge is a non-CD effect based on a regenerating resouces which in itself has a limited regeneration speed. # of dodges = # of charges. Each dodge/charge regenerates after X seconds. You can have Y dodges/charges stacked up and available.

 

In fact, compare Bolstered Elements: It gives Stability when activating a stance. Stances are in fact ammo-based skills, and from the perspective of the trait firing, it functions equivalent to one firing from dodges.

 

So for sake of parity, there is no parity. There is a case for EM just being too strong, flat out. That is true. But there's no real comparability becaues while UC was nerfed to provide lower endurance regen after firing, it was on a completely different class in a different context in a different era of elite specs. The only real comparability is if we only look at abstracted functionality, and as I said, we're looking at traits affecting ammo-skills on top of dodges then because functionally they're the same type of trigger.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm against your fix (EM is stupid, remove it, and for that matter, **scrap and redo Mirage** because the current spec is insulting to the class as a whole :anguished: ), but I definitely don't think EM is a good trait either.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Fun fact EM isn’t a trait that uses the Ammo System, another fun fact no trait uses the Ammo System only skills do, another fun fact Dodges aren’t Skills, any more false equivalencies for me to correct?

>

> And the factual differences are? A trait triggering from a dodge is a non-CD effect based on a regenerating resouces which in itself has a limited regeneration speed. # of dodges = # of charges. Each dodge/charge regenerates after X seconds. You can have Y dodges/charges stacked up and available.

>

> In fact, compare Bolstered Elements: It gives Stability when activating a stance. Stances are in fact ammo-based skills, and from the perspective of the trait firing, it functions equivalent to one firing from dodges.

>

> So for sake of parity, there is no parity. There is a case for EM just being too strong, flat out. That is true. But there's no real comparability becaues while UC was nerfed to provide lower endurance regen after firing, it was on a completely different class in a different context in a different era of elite specs. The only real comparability is if we only look at abstracted functionality, and as I said, we're looking at traits affecting ammo-skills on top of dodges then because functionally they're the same type of trigger.

>

> Don't get me wrong, I'm against your fix (EM is stupid, remove it, and for that matter, **scrap and redo Mirage** because the current spec is insulting to the class as a whole :anguished: ), but I definitely don't think EM is a good trait either.

 

 

Dodges are not an ammunition system or even close, neither are stances, they are completely separate mechanics, common sense shows this, again traits don’t use he ammunition system, and yes EM and UC are almost identical and are causing identical complaints, so yes for parity’s sake they need to add exhaustion to EM, a kindergartner can see that.

 

Again just because it seems that certain people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts, Dodges and traits aren’t similar or even close to the ammunition system again common sense shows that, just because certain people think that they are the same doesn’t make them so.

[viquing.8254]

>UC are almost identical and are causing identical complaints, so yes for parity’s sake they need to add exhaustion to EM, a kindergartner can see that.

i can also see that we live 2 years with UC untouched, this comparison is meh.

I don't care about nerfing EM or somewhat, but what make me feels bad is that people who want nerf probably play a profession with auto break stunt or auto stab or somewhat cheesy like everyone. (if not we probably see more lock down builds...)

[Carighan.6758]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Again just because it seems that certain people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts, Dodges and traits aren’t similar or even close to the ammunition system again common sense shows that, just because certain people think that they are the same doesn’t make them so.

 

If "Dodge" was a skill on your hotbar, with an ammo of 2, a recharge of 10s and a CD of 0, what changed? Nothing.

Alacrity mimics Vigor, effects partially refunding CD (these already exist aplenty) mimic effects which grant endurance. Seriously, if not for the unique input method and the unique GUI element, we wouldn't be having this discussion as no one would know Dodge as anything **but** an ammo-skill.

 

So yeah, I agree, something needs to be done about Elusive Mind. But please consider that the whole secondary argument makes no sense, dodge/endurance is **exactly** like skills/ammo. In fact, half the point was to apply the very-well working ammo-system Dodge uses to other skills to facilitate better balance.

 

---

 

But, back to the point, I stick with my opinion about EM: **Scrap it**. And while they're at it, please also scrapy ... I wanted to write a bunch of things, but frankly, just "Mirage" does it. I hate the spec. I hate that it exists, I hate how utterly soulless it has been implemented, I hate how nonsensical its elements are, I hate how nothing fits together, I hate how it exaggerates the innate Mesmer problems (which, to be fair, are part of the core class - but they could have made an elite spec which doesn't highlight them as much, look at Chrono!), I hate even the name/theme, considering how all they managed to do with it was that I have some voice quips which don't even fit *what I'm doing* and the weak graphics on False Oasis.

If this is all we could do from "Mirage", then sorry, out with it. Try something else. It can't really be any worse :cry:

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Again just because it seems that certain people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts, Dodges and traits aren’t similar or even close to the ammunition system again common sense shows that, just because certain people think that they are the same doesn’t make them so.

>

> If "Dodge" was a skill on your hotbar, with an ammo of 2, a recharge of 10s and a CD of 0, what changed? Nothing.

> Alacrity mimics Vigor, effects partially refunding CD (these already exist aplenty) mimic effects which grant endurance. Seriously, if not for the unique input method and the unique GUI element, we wouldn't be having this discussion as no one would know Dodge as anything **but** an ammo-skill.

>

> So yeah, I agree, something needs to be done about Elusive Mind. But please consider that the whole secondary argument makes no sense, dodge/endurance is **exactly** like skills/ammo. In fact, half the point was to apply the very-well working ammo-system Dodge uses to other skills to facilitate better balance.

>

> ---

>

> But, back to the point, I stick with my opinion about EM: **Scrap it**. And while they're at it, please also scrapy ... I wanted to write a bunch of things, but frankly, just "Mirage" does it. I hate the spec. I hate that it exists, I hate how utterly soulless it has been implemented, I hate how nonsensical its elements are, I hate how nothing fits together, I hate how it exaggerates the innate Mesmer problems (which, to be fair, are part of the core class - but they could have made an elite spec which doesn't highlight them as much, look at Chrono!), I hate even the name/theme, considering how all they managed to do with it was that I have some voice quips which don't even fit *what I'm doing* and the weak graphics on False Oasis.

> If this is all we could do from "Mirage", then sorry, out with it. Try something else. It can't really be any worse :cry:

 

But see Dodge is its own mechanic that predates the ammo system by years, also where is the Dev statement stating that The Ammo system was inspired by Dodges and Endurance? Oh is it just what you feel and want to believe inspired the ammo system? Again they completely different mechanics with different design space, also my proposed change would only effect Dodges if EM is slotted and used while being CC’ed a conditional mechanic already in game on a Dodge modifying trait that fills a similar role, Ammo system skills don’t have such a Conditional mechanic tied to them.

 

One last time just because you feel or think something doesn’t make it true, I’ll wait for you to provide the statement from the Dev team stating that Dodges are ammo system and that the Ammo system was inspired by Dodges/Endurance. Oh wait devs Stated the Ammunition System was inspired by the Mantra skill mechanics, and was a more polished version of that mechanic that allowed them a better way to balance certain skill types.

 

Come back with actual facts about the different mechanics in game especially when you make claims on Dev intent and design inspiration.

 

Again my proposal is all about parity between similar traits and is also inline with Anets capabilities and history of action taken, and is more likely to be done than a complete rework, so it is a more realistic proposal that would be implemented based on the history of Dev action on class balance/design.

[viquing.8254]

So we can bring back on death traits ?

Carighan will be happy with the remplacement of mirage and BlaqueFyre will be happy too because the evade effect will be similar to thief/engi/war on evade effects.

And mesmers mecanic will stop blew up

[Carighan.6758]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> So we can bring back on death traits ?

> Carighan will be happy with the remplacement of mirage and BlaqueFyre will be happy too because the evade effect will be similar to thief/engi/war on evade effects.

> And mesmers mecanic will stop blew up

 

Yay, pet bomber! #Animist

 

I'd love that. Reshuffles summons so that all phantasm skills are instead low-CD and just spit out single-attack phantasms which afterwards run off to explode, has on-death traits, and tons of summons and shatter CD reductions, just a constant barrage of clones and phantasms going kaboom. Even if you try to nuke them down first!

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> > Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

> >

> > I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

> >

> > Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

> >

> > This is the general issue.

> >

> > **Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.**

>

> Wrong. The only way to win vs mes atm on any prof is to hope that he will make quite few heavy mistakes. Good mes shouldn't lose to anything atm (despite how good enemy is).

 

Oh be fair here, quite a few of the PoF elite specs are like that as well. Mesmer, and mirage specifically, do have things that need toning down for sure. But its far from the only class in this situation.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> > > Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

> > >

> > > I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

> > >

> > > Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

> > >

> > > This is the general issue.

> > >

> > > **Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.**

> >

> > Wrong. The only way to win vs mes atm on any prof is to hope that he will make quite few heavy mistakes. Good mes shouldn't lose to anything atm (despite how good enemy is).

>

> Oh be fair here, quite a few of the PoF elite specs are like that as well. Mesmer, and mirage specifically, do have things that need toning down for sure. But its far from the only class in this situation.

 

Never claimed mirage is only good/borderline broken spec from PoF but it is only spec right now that has all the tools to outplay and win vs the enemy, no matter what they face. They ARE king of 1v1 atm.

Let's take scourge that is stupidly stong atm, they do have weakness to long range burst dmg. What is mirage weakness? In all honesty?

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> > > > Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

> > > >

> > > > I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

> > > >

> > > > Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

> > > >

> > > > This is the general issue.

> > > >

> > > > **Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.**

> > >

> > > Wrong. The only way to win vs mes atm on any prof is to hope that he will make quite few heavy mistakes. Good mes shouldn't lose to anything atm (despite how good enemy is).

> >

> > Oh be fair here, quite a few of the PoF elite specs are like that as well. Mesmer, and mirage specifically, do have things that need toning down for sure. But its far from the only class in this situation.

>

> Never claimed mirage is only good/borderline broken spec from PoF but it is only spec right now that has all the tools to outplay and win vs the enemy, no matter what they face. They ARE king of 1v1 atm.

> Let's take scourge that is stupidly stong atm, they do have weakness to long range burst dmg. What is mirage weakness? In all honesty?

 

I've taken a several month break, so I don't remember exactly where every spec is at currently, but I do know that pre-nerf spellbreakers were in the exact same situation mirage is in, and even after the nerf it seemed like a well played spellbreaker was all but unkillable (though I might be mis-remembering that). Mirage has a ton of tools, but I do think EM is the biggest problem with the spec.