Remove mystic coins from Wintersday rune and sigil promotion forge recipes

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"OneYenShort.3189" said:

> > you'll say the TP has plenty and people have trees in their home instance to keep the market supplied. Well if a sample of 25,000 wintersday gifts only resulted in 2 runes dropped, that is a pretty kitten low way to supply the market with only one of the sigils needed.

> >

>

> One thing people are forgetting is that the demand for sigils is relatively low and diminishes each year. @"OneYenShort.3189" is perfectly correct that a few runes/sigils per 25k gifts is a really, really low volume faucet. But any given person only needs 50 of each once. After the collection is completed, they will never need any more again. So the question is more along the lines of:

> * How many people are still working on the sigil/rune parts of the collection?

> * How many people are still opening presents?

> * What price are hoarders/speculators willing to accept? What price are achievement hunters willing to spend?

>

> In short: It doesn't matter if the supply (from gifts & hoarding) is decreasing, _as long as the demand is decreasing at a similar pace_.

>

> The best evidence we have that the demand is decreasing is that the price of drinks has tanked: it's barely half what it was in previous years. Clearly, the drinks are easier to obtain, but we need more of them. Currently, _Masterful Toast_ costs 190 gold; in past years it was over 700 gold. This year, _Essence of Mischief_ costs 440g & _Snowfall_ 280g; in previous years, those were much less.

>

> Current cost of making the skin: under 1000g. Previous year costs: 900-1300g, depending on when.

>

> In short, the cost of making the skin hasn't changed much over time (it's a bit cheaper right now than in other years, during Wintersday). It might turn out later that costs go way up, because maybe ANet made a mistake estimating how quickly the rune & sigil supply would dry up. But maybe not. It's too soon to say that there is a problem. At worst, there _might_ be a problem and only if there's a series of unfortunate events.

 

It took me a lot less than 900g because I took my time with it and ended up doing each part when that part was at its cheapest.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

 

> It took me a lot less than 900g because I took my time with it and ended up doing each part when that part was at its cheapest.

 

I did most of WP when it was released in 2015, the cost of the Essence of Snowfall/Mischief back then was about 15g/each of them roughly.

I left the drinks until this year because;

1 - I was not clicking 40 stacks of drinks individually for the Masterful Toast. I was not going to punish myself haha xD Plus, it cost the 900g + just for Masterful Toast at the time.

2- Consume all was added, I just had to wait for WD for prices to plummet.

 

So, it took me 2 years to finish Winter's Presence, but it only cost me about 300-ish gold, because I waited 2 years. I traded cost for time and it paid off.

[Wormy Slyme.2913]

I didn’t participate in Wintersday last year and I honestly don’t remember whether I did it the year before (I’ve been much more casual since grinding a couple PS4 games). This year I figured I’d participate since I had a great time with Mad King. One of my goals was to get WP. I wasn’t sure the requirements (because I haven’t been around) and figured it would be a difficult but acheiveable challenge much like the Mad King backitem. Great! I start grinding events. Ok! 10,000 boozy drinks? Man, that’s a lot and it’s around 200g (depending on my grind) but I’m willing to consider it. Maybe I should look at what else is required before I make that sink. Hmm, Sigils and runes that will cost a combined 600g-ish? And mystic coins? Ponder, ponder, ponder. I can afford it but it will require me to dig into my bank and sell items that I plan to sell to fund my kid’s college education. I’ve been saving mystic coins since day one so that’s not an issue. But, in the end, it will leave me with not much savings (liquid or otherwise) that I might be able to use on a mount or other fun thing in the future. And it’s an item that I can’t picture using on more than one toon.

 

Yeah, I think I’ll pass! Aurora would get much more use from my toons so I’ll focus on that instead!

 

At this point in my life, I can’t justify any purchase that will get very limited use. If anyone wants to spend that kind of cash for something that will give them that much happiness, then all the more power to them.

 

If they release a mount package of drunken leprechaun mounts for St. Patty’s Day, then I’m all in!

[Evil Octopi.8253]

People seem to have opinion that Winter's Presence we designed to be expensive, and I don't think that's true. It was designed to be festive, and players made it expensive because of the components tradable nature. That means it was not designed to always be expensive, it could cost 100g, or it could cost 2000g. So the argument it needs to always cost a 1000g is flawed. Now my problem, which the topic is about, is the rune and sigil promotion recipe requiring mystic coins. They destroyed the drop rate of the runes and sigil when they introduced the promotion recipe. I don't know if you folks have seen the data on the 100,000 gift boxes opened (thanks to sutgon.5402), but it provided 24 sigils, and no runes. It seems the rune is not a drop any more. As a side note, enough drinks dropped that you could complete the Festive Imbiber at least 8 times. Now I completed the drinks last year, and I can tell you I did not spend 1000g on them. I grinded them out of presents. Now I think I bought some presents, but not a lot. I did the achievements everyday, the events everyday, I bought with karma, I bought with commendations, I ran around the open world getting presents. I remember having like 2 stacks everyday to open. My point being, that it was something that could be done and worked towards. The sigils and runes don't fit that. I am forced to promote them.

 

So why is it mystic coins???? A timed gated, high demand item, that is has a player controlled price, and is the component in a 100 other recipes already. Why are they not similar to other promotion recipes in the mystic forge, using Philosopher's Stones or Mystic Crystals? If the point is gold sink, why not using ascended bricks, ingots, or stars? Stars make sense since they are Wintersday Drops. That's 15s a star if you make them, and if its supposed to be big gold sink, make it 100 stars per promotion that's 1.5g. So the skin is supposed to be expensive??? Why not Bottles of Elonian Wine, Mystic Runestones, or Icy Runestones. The cost is static always keeping its cost high, and these items are hard sinks, 100% of its cost out of the system versus 10% out via trading post. A hard gold sink is better for the game than a wealth transfer, and the promotion recipe is a perfect candidate for that inflation control. If one of the considerations was to give players the some feeling of participation in the economy, why not ecto as a component instead of mystic coins? Those are used 100 other recipes too. Those are player controlled too.

 

Hmm, as an alternative suggestion, how about adding NPC version of Zommoros that I can buy non-time gated mystic coins from? I hear he has a lot of coins piled up from clover recipes.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> The coins are adding value to the Skin.

> Making Winter’s Presence came with the ~1100g price tag, when introduced, the 10k Drinks were the bulk of that, now it’s these runes/sigils. You will not get it cheap either way if a rework were to happen.

 

And people not after Winter's Presence get shafted because of one item? More things than Winter's Presence require Superior Sigils of Mischief you know. Quip III achievement requires four Superior Sigils of Mischief (100 Mystic Coins for a collection), Eggnog Helmet requires one (20 Mystic Coins), Winter's Presence requires fifty (1,000 Mystic Coins - but other parts add up to a total of 1,450 Mystic Coins).

 

Superior Rune of Snowfall is nowhere near as bad as the upgrade recipe for Superior Sigil of Mischief either, as the former requires 2 Mystic Coins per upgrade, and only 2 Major Runes to make a Superior (so a total of 6 Mystic Coins per Superior Rune); however, Sigils of Mischief require 4 Mystic Coins per upgrade, with 4 Major Sigils to make a Superior (so a total of 20 Mystic Coins per Superior Sigil).

 

And that's "okay?"

 

Winter's Presence doesn't need to be continuously 1,100g price tag. Everything devalues over time. And even then, it has plenty of Mystic Coin requirement in the direct recipes rather than from Superior Sigils of Mischief.

 

TBH, in general, Mystic Coins need looked at. [This entire page of recipes are not worth the cost](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Coin/Feast_of_food), and [almost all of these recipes](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Coin/Other) are even worse. Take the non-legendary/Winter's Presence recipes from those two pages, and change the use of 5 Mystic Coins to 1 Anthology of Heroes (10 spirit shards) or even 1 Augur's Stone (20 spirit shards). Hell, I'd even take 1 Bloodstone Shard (200 spirit shards).

 

That would go a long way to quelling the Mystic Coin complaints without making a critical alteration to the coins, since most complaints end up stemming from the lesser recipes being abhorrently overpriced because of the Mystic Coins.

 

Hell, this thread's issues would disappear if they made the Sigil of Mischief's recipes the same as the Rune of Snowfall's recipes, even if it meant upping the Magnanimous Obsidian Crystal, Essence of Mischief, and Essence of Snowfall recipes to 100 Mystic Coins each.

 

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

>

> > It took me a lot less than 900g because I took my time with it and ended up doing each part when that part was at its cheapest.

>

> I did most of WP when it was released in 2015, the cost of the Essence of Snowfall/Mischief back then was about 15g/each of them roughly.

> I left the drinks until this year because;

> 1 - I was not clicking 40 stacks of drinks individually for the Masterful Toast. I was not going to punish myself haha xD Plus, it cost the 900g + just for Masterful Toast at the time.

> 2- Consume all was added, I just had to wait for WD for prices to plummet.

>

> So, it took me 2 years to finish Winter's Presence, but it only cost me about 300-ish gold, because I waited 2 years. I traded cost for time and it paid off.

 

I find it funny you argue that the recipes should be untouched because "The coins are adding value to the Skin" that the ale loss, while also saying you wait for the ale to cheapen so that you don't pay as much. Kind of sounds hypocritical.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

>Quip III achievement requires four Superior Sigils of Mischief (100 Mystic Coins for a collection)

 

I know that the whole point of crafting a precurser is to have a non-RNG way to get one. But when you can buy Chaos Gun for 90g, why spend 200+ Gold crafting it, unless you wanted the achievements for crafting it?

 

>Eggnog Helmet requires one (20 Mystic Coins).

21g52s for 20 Coins (at the time of typing), or you could just buy one sigil for 8g. Plus, if you're willing to put in 40g for the Gift of Wood the EXOTIC helm requires, then 8g is also fine.

 

Both of which are damn good deals *if you really think about the options*.

 

 

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

> I find it funny you argue that the recipes should be untouched because "The coins are adding value to the Skin" that the ale loss, while also saying you wait for the ale to cheapen so that you don't pay as much. Kind of sounds hypocritical.

 

Difference is, I ‘Paid’ by waiting 2 years to finish it. Most people whining about this want to start and finish it in 3 weeks.

 

Value is determined by players. Since auras have become a big thing, WP is highly desirable. The best alteration one can hope for (and I advocate) is that Superior runes of Snowfall be added to Wintersday gifts.

 

As more people complete Masterful Toast, more drinks enter the TP, there’s no reason for one whom has completed it, to continue consuming them. It was obvious the price would fall, they’re almost guaranteed each gift that is opened. That is probably why the Sigils have been rare, to keep the value of the item up, when the drinks started falling in price, the runes and sigils bolstered the value. I don’t think that is coincidence, I think it is intentional, so I wouldn’t expect to see Snowfall in the drop tables until next year.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> That is probably why the Sigils have been rare, to keep the value of the item up, when the drinks started falling in price, the runes and sigils bolstered the value. I don’t think that is coincidence, I think it is intentional, so I wouldn’t expect to see Snowfall in the drop tables until next year.

 

I actually doubt it.

 

The recipe to upgrade runes of snowfall and sigils of mischief were added in 2014, same year that the runes and sigils were added. Back then, the Mystic Coins were much, much cheaper than they are now and ArenaNet was looking to add sinks for it to raise the demand/lower supply.

 

The drop rates for sigils and runes were nerfed in 2016, when they were flooding the marketplace - in 2015, we got the orphans who were used to reduce the amount of toy weapon skins and, in this year, wintersday foods which flood the market. Drop rates for both have also been nerfed over the years. Unlike Halloween items, ArenaNet has been actively adding methods to reduce the supply of wintersday items.

 

Even the new snowflake change ultimately reduces the amount of overall snowflakes. 32 Tiny Snowflake made 1 Flawless Snowflake, but 1 Flawless Snowflake makes 10 Snowflakes. Both 1 Tiny Snowflake and 1 Delicate Snowflake (which takes 2 Tiny Snowflakes to make) becomes 1 Snowflake. In short, we get fewer new snowflakes for upgraded older snowflakes.

 

So again: ArenaNet has been continuously putting in methods to reduce the supply of wintersday items in the marketplace.

 

Meanwhile, since that recipe - which takes **20 Mystic Coins for a single superior sigil** - has not changed since 2014. The nerf on the droprate for runes of snowfall and sigils of mischief was the same. But the recipes between the two differ drastically (again, 6 mystic coins versus 20!).

 

Even if the nerf was for the sake of Winter's Presence, they have not only did not account for the difference in recipe, but they **added more uses for superior sigils of mischief!**

 

# This discussion isn't only about Winter's Presence! (EDIT: Or Mystic Coins!)

 

I'm lucky in that I got the superior sigils of mischief and runes of snowfall before their drop rate got massively nerfed, but I still recognize that such one-placed rarity is insane.

 

And if - and I'd argue that's a big if - the purpose of the drop rate nerf was to keep Winter's Presence cost high, then swapping the recipe numbers for runes of snowfall and sigils of mischief will result in the cost not changing, and on top of that the cost of other things not suffering because of the price for superior sigils of mischief.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

The suggestion:

> Remove mystic coins from Wintersday rune and sigil promotion forge recipes

 

The primary arguments:

* Superior Sigil of Mischief & Superior Rune of Snowfall should be obtainable outside of the TP.

* The mystic forge recipes aren't meaningful alternatives, because (a) mystic coins are similarly unfarmable and (b) the recipes compound the amounts of m-coins used.

* The price is too high as a result of above.

 

The primary counter-arguments:

* There are precedents for TP-only supply of mats for prestige items, including-collection based ones (e.g: treasure hunter).

* The mystic forge recipes aren't necessary because there's sufficient supply of the superior versions.

* The costs are variable: it's high during Wintersday and drops by 50-80% by Summer's end. Plus the overall costs comparable to other shinies and are designed to be substantial. At the moment, impatience is driving the cost, not a supply shortage (especially with the rune: the TP supply doubled since last month and the demand has declined a tad).

 

The issue of whether to revisit all recipes requiring mystic coins is worth discussing. But that's outside the scope of the OP's simple request: to change just the recipes for this one sigil and one rune.

 

And just in case it's unclear: I don't think it would be bad for the game to make the change (or to consider it for all non-legendary, non-mystic weapon recipes). I also don't think it's all that important or urgent. To me it's good that the game has some collections and some shinies that are so expensive or so rare that only some of us will obtain them. Things start to lose their sense of meaningful value when they are too easily obtained. It would be bad if most things were like W's Presence; it's good to have a few like this.

 

_edit: removed a side comment. @"Konig Des Todes.2086" convinced me that what I wrote wasn't germane to the overall discussion. (the relevant quote remains below)_

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Evil Octopi.8253" said:

> My point really, is that mystic coins should have never been the added to the promotion recipes in the first place. I cant think of any other promotion recipe that uses mystic coins. They reduced the drop rate of the sigils and runes to almost nothing, forcing the promotion recipe or trading post for progress on the collection. They just didn't adjust the coin component to compensate. If they were looking for the promotion recipe to be a sink, mystic coins is terrible choice. A hugely better choice would have been Bloodstone Bricks, Dragonite Ingots, Empyreal Stars. Solid gold sinks, and a solid mat sink for those ascended mats. You know, the mats so many people were drowning in that they had to add like 10 eaters just to deal with them.

 

I don't get that reasoning. I think the idea that they are the only promotion recipe that has them is a reason to keep them, not take them out. You can't assume they were looking for a sink in the first place. We don't know why those coins are in there, so it's hard to justify taking them out.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> I wish you hadn't added that bit of fluff. I was nodding my head and reconsidering my view up until then. The OP's concern is literally and exactly about Winter's Presence. There are existing threads that are about mystic coins in general and just because many people support both ideas isn't reason enough to hijack this particular conversation to make it about something broader than Winter's Presence.

 

I'm not talking about Mystic Coins. This discussion isn't about Mystic Coins in general, though it's very easy to go that route.

 

The OP might be talking about this due to Winter's Presence, but that doesn't change the fact that the Superior Sigil of Mischief - the main issue here - is used in more than just Winter's Presence, and artificially inflating the price of that one item will affect those other uses.

 

The discussion is, ultimately, *about the price of Superior Sigils of Mischief* (and to a lesser extent, the Superior Rune of Snowfall); OP, and many others, point out the main factor to this: cost of Mystic Coins. Op, and many others, point out the main use of Superior Sigils of Mischief: Winter's Presence. But the discussion is ultimately not about Winter's Presence or price of Mystic Coins, it is about the methods to get Superior Sigils of Mischief and Superior Runes of Snowfall. The others are just cause of interest in the topic.

 

I am not hijacking this thread to talk about Mystic Coins. I was trying to prevent people from being narrow in their talks, focusing solely on Winter's Presence's cost rather than the cost of the sigils (and runes) in general.

 

I was trying to remind people that Superior Sigils of Mischief shouldn't be jacked up in price just to make Winter's Presence a costly endeavor, because it harms other aspects of the economy.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The OP might be talking about this due to Winter's Presence, but that doesn't change the fact that the Superior Sigil of Mischief - the main issue here - is used in more than just Winter's Presence, and artificially inflating the price of that one item will affect those other uses.

Fair enough. I admit I was distracted because I kept seeing "mystic coin" over and over again. I'll remove my side comment above (I had actually intended to cut and message you privately, since it's not directly germane to the OP's suggestion or the rest of your comment.)

 

****

 

> ...the discussion is ultimately not about Winter's Presence or price of Mystic Coins, it is about the methods to get Superior Sigils of Mischief and Superior Runes of Snowfall. The others are just cause of interest in the topic.

You have convinced me that it's a fair digression, but don't you agree that OP was interested in the shiny, not the components? They wrote...

> I am speaking from a Winter's Presence point of view right now

 

****

> I was trying to remind people that Superior Sigils of Mischief shouldn't be jacked up in price just to make Winter's Presence a costly endeavor,

Sure, that's a reasonable point of view, in the context that the sigils have other uses.

 

> because it harms other aspects of the economy.

Well, it changes costs of other items; that doesn't necessarily mean other markets are "harmed"

 

Again, I'm not against ANet revisiting the acquisition methods for the components of Winter's Presence nor any of the side issues associated with that. All the same, I don't agree that it ought to be a priority. (Full disclosure: I haven't made one myself. 1000g seems to much to me for a skin; I'd be willing to spend that if it were a removable infusion.)

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

however, Sigils of Mischief require **5 Mystic Coins per upgrade**, with **5 Major Sigils to make a Superior** (so a **total of 20 Mystic Coins** per Superior Sigil).

 

5 x 5 = 20

 

aye

[Titan.3472]

I hoard loads of MC since game release in bank I bought that many bank slots to store them all and It was NOT FREE so I am against anything that will bring down their price and would even ask to make it mandatory to craft anything beyond (and including) exotic rarity.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> You have convinced me that it's a fair digression, but don't you agree that OP was interested in the shiny, not the components? They wrote...

 

OP might have brought up the topic due to interest in shiny, but that doesn't necessarily mean the topic OP brought up was the shiny. That said, OP also doesn't always dictate the direction of a discussion. ;)

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Well, it changes costs of other items; that doesn't necessarily mean other markets are "harmed"

 

It changes the cost in the manner of greatly increasing the cost to obtain them from what the price was originally conceived to be.

 

This makes it harder to get those items.

 

Whether this harms the situation is ultimately a matter of perspective, and what an individual gains or loses out of the change, but overall I would argue this is more harmful than beneficial.

 

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>> however, Sigils of Mischief require **5 Mystic Coins per upgrade**, with **5 Major Sigils to make a Superior** (so a **total of 20 Mystic Coins** per Superior Sigil).

>

> 5 x 5 = 20

>

> aye

 

I fixed my comment. 4 coins per upgrade; 4 major sigils. It's 4 * 5 (making 4 major sigils then making 1 superior sigil) = 20.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Evil Octopi.8253" said:

> > These recipes are outdated and the mystic coins are a completely unnecessary component.

>

> I dont think the recipes are outdated because both got adjusted this wintersday, switching from the old snowflakes to the new ones.

 

There's a difference between updating a recipe to reflect a changing market (like what happened with HoT launch), and updating a recipe because an item that it required is no longer possible to obtain.

[Despond.2174]

It's not expensive if you buy the runes/sigils outside of the December-early Feb bracket. The drinks this year cost about 150-200g max, if you bought the rest before December 12th you'd have only paid all up about 450-500g, which is quite a reasonable price for such a visual - you have infusions selling up to 2k for example.

 

But yes, if you want it right NOW, you're going to pay around 800g+. I have to wait it out too, I am all done except the mischief part but I am not paying 400g for 50 runes, so I have to wait a few months before they come down a lot. If by any chance they don't come down like they normally do then I'll still get it because I am so close.

 

And prestige isn't just about accomplishment it IS about rarity and price as well. People want expensive flashy visuals to show-off, whether you like to yourself or not, that's the bulk of this games end content, that's their way of being flashy where as other MMOs have constant gear grinds to be showy - and yes you can buy carries/gear in these types of MMOs as well.

[John.8507]

If they changed it, it's hardly fair to everyone who has got the Winter's Presence already.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"John.8507" said:

> If they changed it, it's hardly fair to everyone who has got the Winter's Presence already.

 

Bohoo, cry me a river.

1) when it came out wintersday Runes and Sigils would drop frequently. Now they don't drop AT ALL.

2) When i crafted Mawdrey it costed an arm and a leg to make it, Foxfire clusters were 4gold. Now you can't sell them on the TP because they're being bid below their minimum price of 57copper.

3) When i crafted my Spinal Blades pack each power core was upwards of 10 gold. Now it's a few silver.

Stuff devalues. Them inflating an item's cost because they forgot to add an item to a loot table is beyond incompetent.