What "Raid locked" means.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > pug all my raids every week. never really complain a bit since day one.

> > > when you play the game, you find all the ways around to get yourself into it. .. just play the game

> >

> > Or don’t play the game? Whatever floats the old tug boat.

>

> You can't tell people to not play the game or leave or uninstall.. :p bcos thats not helpful right.. if they really want to be part of it.. then the best advice from exp players are.. try harder and don't give up. No point complaining. Just play the game if you really want to be part of it.

 

I actually have great respect for you, Talindra. Pugging Raids is really tough sometimes, physically, mentally and emotionally. I had some really hard days, where I had to turn the game off afterwards. Especially with some of the groups out there.

[JamesT.3645]

For me, the sheer amount of waiting around is the hardest part to raiding. Having recently relocated to Asia, LFG is very very quiet most of the time, and while I pug 5 to 10 bosses per week, I have to dedicate maybe 75% of my playing time to raiding (2+ hours per day) to do this. Once I get my first Deimos kill, I'll probably knock it back and refocus on other things. A greater number of active raiders would definitely help OP as there'd be more people at every skill level and learning stage. Not sure how to do this though. I think that part of the problem is that most of the bosses have one or two high skill roles and professions that are difficult to fill (tank, kiter, chrono etc), and beginner only groups will particularly struggle with this. In my opinion, something like Samarog would be perfect as the first boss of a wing as party composition isn't too important yet there's a nice balance of mechanics and personal responsibility without the single mistake equals wipe potential of say Sloth and VG.

[Joxer.6024]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

>> I actually have great respect for you, Talindra. Pugging Raids is really tough sometimes, physically, mentally and emotionally. I had some really hard days, where I had to turn the game off afterwards. Especially with some of the groups out there.

 

And that is why I don't pug, not worth it to me but then again I am in a few guilds that do them and are not hard core, so that's a plus.

 

"Go play the Witcher series or something."

Its actually a great game, and books!!! But I think if you look around you will be right.....don't give up.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> So you picked the only door that is usless?

> The Complain in the forums instead of actually trying?

> Because, son, A LOT of guilds do raids and don't ask for Li.

> What they usually ask is, learn the encounters, read about it, and have a build that isn't utterly useless. Having 200 Li is a way to verify that when people are in a hurry (ie. LFG).

> If you're being recruited by a guild asking for Li (never really saw that happening), there's 10 guilds that don't for every one that does.

> kitten, i'm tired of people like this...

> It's a MMORPG, if you want to play these things alone, IT'S THE WRONG GENRE! There's a metric ton of better games, with better graphics, better story, a ton of hours of play, that are made for you! Go play the Witcher series or something.

> Now if you want to play an MMORPG, get a group of friends, if you don't have one, find one, join a guild, have fun with them, try raids. If you fail it's ok, you had fun.

> The first day Raids got out, i grabbed the 6 guys that were on at the time, and we just went into the raid knowing it was hard, that it was hard for 10 guys and that we wouldn't make anything of it. So we did the first 3 elites, got to VG wiped 3 times, and just went back to playing fractals, knowing that next time we at least knew a bit more of the mechanics that we did before.

> Now there's a lot less active guys on my guild, but we still try raids, mostly with pugs filling the holes, and we fail a lot, but at least it's fun even when it's not frustrating. And there's always the weekly escort.

>

 

It is a simple and empirically tested truth that playing with others is not exclusively a static experience with the same people over and over again at the same place and in the same time. Playing as a human desire predates culture, so the one true form of group play can´t be one dictated by your or my cultural preference.

To see if I am right, enter any organization that houses juveniles and children and ask the most conservative teacher, kindergarten teacher or educator for a sociogram of a given peer group, a single class or just 5 pupils from the same class. You will still find a center of attention, the cool kids so to say. You will find an orbit of less cool kids who drop in and out of the circle of the cool kids. You will find children that walk only to their own drum from a very young age, and you will find kids that nowhere fit in at the first glance. No matter of cultural education will change that and at the end of a given group life cycle, the people will fall back into the roles they feel most comfortable with if left alone.

 

tl;dr : Your desire to play a MMO with friends is not the only valid one.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > So you picked the only door that is usless?

> > The Complain in the forums instead of actually trying?

> > Because, son, A LOT of guilds do raids and don't ask for Li.

> > What they usually ask is, learn the encounters, read about it, and have a build that isn't utterly useless. Having 200 Li is a way to verify that when people are in a hurry (ie. LFG).

> > If you're being recruited by a guild asking for Li (never really saw that happening), there's 10 guilds that don't for every one that does.

> > kitten, i'm tired of people like this...

> > It's a MMORPG, if you want to play these things alone, IT'S THE WRONG GENRE! There's a metric ton of better games, with better graphics, better story, a ton of hours of play, that are made for you! Go play the Witcher series or something.

> > Now if you want to play an MMORPG, get a group of friends, if you don't have one, find one, join a guild, have fun with them, try raids. If you fail it's ok, you had fun.

> > The first day Raids got out, i grabbed the 6 guys that were on at the time, and we just went into the raid knowing it was hard, that it was hard for 10 guys and that we wouldn't make anything of it. So we did the first 3 elites, got to VG wiped 3 times, and just went back to playing fractals, knowing that next time we at least knew a bit more of the mechanics that we did before.

> > Now there's a lot less active guys on my guild, but we still try raids, mostly with pugs filling the holes, and we fail a lot, but at least it's fun even when it's not frustrating. And there's always the weekly escort.

> >

>

> It is a simple and empirically tested truth that playing with others is not exclusively a static experience with the same people over and over again at the same place and in the same time. Playing as a human desire predates culture, so the one true form of group play can´t be one dictated by your or my cultural preference.

> To see if I am right, enter any organization that houses juveniles and children and ask the most conservative teacher, kindergarten teacher or educator for a sociogram of a given peer group, a single class or just 5 pupils from the same class. You will still find a center of attention, the cool kids so to say. You will find an orbit of less cool kids who drop in and out of the circle of the cool kids. You will find children that walk only to their own drum from a very young age, and you will find kids that nowhere fit in at the first glance. No matter of cultural education will change that and at the end of a given group life cycle, the people will fall back into the roles they feel most comfortable with if left alone.

>

> tl;dr : Your desire to play a MMO with friends is not the only valid one.

 

You can't play a soccer match without 2 teams of 11 players each.

 

Doesn't mean that sport is broken and needs fixing.

 

This is a MMORPG and an online multiplayer game. Having no multiplayer content goes against its very core design idea.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > So you picked the only door that is usless?

> > > The Complain in the forums instead of actually trying?

> > > Because, son, A LOT of guilds do raids and don't ask for Li.

> > > What they usually ask is, learn the encounters, read about it, and have a build that isn't utterly useless. Having 200 Li is a way to verify that when people are in a hurry (ie. LFG).

> > > If you're being recruited by a guild asking for Li (never really saw that happening), there's 10 guilds that don't for every one that does.

> > > kitten, i'm tired of people like this...

> > > It's a MMORPG, if you want to play these things alone, IT'S THE WRONG GENRE! There's a metric ton of better games, with better graphics, better story, a ton of hours of play, that are made for you! Go play the Witcher series or something.

> > > Now if you want to play an MMORPG, get a group of friends, if you don't have one, find one, join a guild, have fun with them, try raids. If you fail it's ok, you had fun.

> > > The first day Raids got out, i grabbed the 6 guys that were on at the time, and we just went into the raid knowing it was hard, that it was hard for 10 guys and that we wouldn't make anything of it. So we did the first 3 elites, got to VG wiped 3 times, and just went back to playing fractals, knowing that next time we at least knew a bit more of the mechanics that we did before.

> > > Now there's a lot less active guys on my guild, but we still try raids, mostly with pugs filling the holes, and we fail a lot, but at least it's fun even when it's not frustrating. And there's always the weekly escort.

> > >

> >

> > It is a simple and empirically tested truth that playing with others is not exclusively a static experience with the same people over and over again at the same place and in the same time. Playing as a human desire predates culture, so the one true form of group play can´t be one dictated by your or my cultural preference.

> > To see if I am right, enter any organization that houses juveniles and children and ask the most conservative teacher, kindergarten teacher or educator for a sociogram of a given peer group, a single class or just 5 pupils from the same class. You will still find a center of attention, the cool kids so to say. You will find an orbit of less cool kids who drop in and out of the circle of the cool kids. You will find children that walk only to their own drum from a very young age, and you will find kids that nowhere fit in at the first glance. No matter of cultural education will change that and at the end of a given group life cycle, the people will fall back into the roles they feel most comfortable with if left alone.

> >

> > tl;dr : Your desire to play a MMO with friends is not the only valid one.

>

> You can't play a soccer match without 2 teams of 11 players each.

>

> Doesn't mean that sport is broken and needs fixing.

>

> This is a MMORPG and an online multiplayer game. Having no multiplayer content goes against its very core design idea.

 

Because people did not want to have 11 guys per team exclusively and play it only outside when the weather was ok, futsol and indoor football were invented. Video evidence was included recently. League modes frequently change.

All these measures did not attack the game itself, it did attack the rules of the game.

 

There are no static rules for playing an MMO. You can play an MMO without grouping, you always could. So you can´t say that one way is more right than another one. What you see as mandatory I think of as optional. GW2 was a very optional game until HoT. Today the focus has shifted more into the mandatory direction if you want to be on equal standing with the defendants of hardcore gaming in the eyes of Anet.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > So you picked the only door that is usless?

> > > > The Complain in the forums instead of actually trying?

> > > > Because, son, A LOT of guilds do raids and don't ask for Li.

> > > > What they usually ask is, learn the encounters, read about it, and have a build that isn't utterly useless. Having 200 Li is a way to verify that when people are in a hurry (ie. LFG).

> > > > If you're being recruited by a guild asking for Li (never really saw that happening), there's 10 guilds that don't for every one that does.

> > > > kitten, i'm tired of people like this...

> > > > It's a MMORPG, if you want to play these things alone, IT'S THE WRONG GENRE! There's a metric ton of better games, with better graphics, better story, a ton of hours of play, that are made for you! Go play the Witcher series or something.

> > > > Now if you want to play an MMORPG, get a group of friends, if you don't have one, find one, join a guild, have fun with them, try raids. If you fail it's ok, you had fun.

> > > > The first day Raids got out, i grabbed the 6 guys that were on at the time, and we just went into the raid knowing it was hard, that it was hard for 10 guys and that we wouldn't make anything of it. So we did the first 3 elites, got to VG wiped 3 times, and just went back to playing fractals, knowing that next time we at least knew a bit more of the mechanics that we did before.

> > > > Now there's a lot less active guys on my guild, but we still try raids, mostly with pugs filling the holes, and we fail a lot, but at least it's fun even when it's not frustrating. And there's always the weekly escort.

> > > >

> > >

> > > It is a simple and empirically tested truth that playing with others is not exclusively a static experience with the same people over and over again at the same place and in the same time. Playing as a human desire predates culture, so the one true form of group play can´t be one dictated by your or my cultural preference.

> > > To see if I am right, enter any organization that houses juveniles and children and ask the most conservative teacher, kindergarten teacher or educator for a sociogram of a given peer group, a single class or just 5 pupils from the same class. You will still find a center of attention, the cool kids so to say. You will find an orbit of less cool kids who drop in and out of the circle of the cool kids. You will find children that walk only to their own drum from a very young age, and you will find kids that nowhere fit in at the first glance. No matter of cultural education will change that and at the end of a given group life cycle, the people will fall back into the roles they feel most comfortable with if left alone.

> > >

> > > tl;dr : Your desire to play a MMO with friends is not the only valid one.

> >

> > You can't play a soccer match without 2 teams of 11 players each.

> >

> > Doesn't mean that sport is broken and needs fixing.

> >

> > This is a MMORPG and an online multiplayer game. Having no multiplayer content goes against its very core design idea.

>

> Because people did not want to have 11 guys per team exclusively and play it only outside when the weather was ok, futsol and indoor football were invented. Video evidence was included recently. League modes frequently change.

> All these measures did not attack the game itself, it did attack the rules of the game.

>

> There are no static rules for playing an MMO. You can play an MMO without grouping, you always could. So you can´t say that one way is more right than another one. What you see as mandatory I think of as optional. GW2 was a very optional game until HoT. Today the focus has shifted more into the mandatory direction if you want to be on equal standing with the defendants of hardcore gaming in the eyes of Anet.

>

 

So your argument is: indoor soccer requires 6 people, not 11?

 

True, yet it remains a team sport and indoor soccer, while similar has a completely different set of rules. The one common thing though is: it remains a team sport.

 

Actually untrue, there was and still is multiple MMOs where you never could progress without grouping in the past (DAoC, FFXI, etc.) and many activities in MMOs to this day are group only (dungeons, raids, open world bosses (in many MMOs), challenging open world areas, etc.).

 

The move to a more single player experience came with WoW and the market trying to appeal to a bigger more casual crowd. Now some might argue this was one of the first steps to the end of MMORPGs, I'm not quite that dramatic. It was the move to a less community centric and less interactive experience though. Case in point: you can level in most modern MMORPGs without ever speaking to a single person or interacting with any one. That's actually the slow poison which kills the genre. Might as well just play a single player game in that case.

[Tyson.5160]

What was that slogan they used... if you like mmos you should check out gw2 if you hate mmos you definitely want to check out gw2, ahhhhhh memories.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > So you picked the only door that is usless?

> > > > > The Complain in the forums instead of actually trying?

> > > > > Because, son, A LOT of guilds do raids and don't ask for Li.

> > > > > What they usually ask is, learn the encounters, read about it, and have a build that isn't utterly useless. Having 200 Li is a way to verify that when people are in a hurry (ie. LFG).

> > > > > If you're being recruited by a guild asking for Li (never really saw that happening), there's 10 guilds that don't for every one that does.

> > > > > kitten, i'm tired of people like this...

> > > > > It's a MMORPG, if you want to play these things alone, IT'S THE WRONG GENRE! There's a metric ton of better games, with better graphics, better story, a ton of hours of play, that are made for you! Go play the Witcher series or something.

> > > > > Now if you want to play an MMORPG, get a group of friends, if you don't have one, find one, join a guild, have fun with them, try raids. If you fail it's ok, you had fun.

> > > > > The first day Raids got out, i grabbed the 6 guys that were on at the time, and we just went into the raid knowing it was hard, that it was hard for 10 guys and that we wouldn't make anything of it. So we did the first 3 elites, got to VG wiped 3 times, and just went back to playing fractals, knowing that next time we at least knew a bit more of the mechanics that we did before.

> > > > > Now there's a lot less active guys on my guild, but we still try raids, mostly with pugs filling the holes, and we fail a lot, but at least it's fun even when it's not frustrating. And there's always the weekly escort.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It is a simple and empirically tested truth that playing with others is not exclusively a static experience with the same people over and over again at the same place and in the same time. Playing as a human desire predates culture, so the one true form of group play can´t be one dictated by your or my cultural preference.

> > > > To see if I am right, enter any organization that houses juveniles and children and ask the most conservative teacher, kindergarten teacher or educator for a sociogram of a given peer group, a single class or just 5 pupils from the same class. You will still find a center of attention, the cool kids so to say. You will find an orbit of less cool kids who drop in and out of the circle of the cool kids. You will find children that walk only to their own drum from a very young age, and you will find kids that nowhere fit in at the first glance. No matter of cultural education will change that and at the end of a given group life cycle, the people will fall back into the roles they feel most comfortable with if left alone.

> > > >

> > > > tl;dr : Your desire to play a MMO with friends is not the only valid one.

> > >

> > > You can't play a soccer match without 2 teams of 11 players each.

> > >

> > > Doesn't mean that sport is broken and needs fixing.

> > >

> > > This is a MMORPG and an online multiplayer game. Having no multiplayer content goes against its very core design idea.

> >

> > Because people did not want to have 11 guys per team exclusively and play it only outside when the weather was ok, futsol and indoor football were invented. Video evidence was included recently. League modes frequently change.

> > All these measures did not attack the game itself, it did attack the rules of the game.

> >

> > There are no static rules for playing an MMO. You can play an MMO without grouping, you always could. So you can´t say that one way is more right than another one. What you see as mandatory I think of as optional. GW2 was a very optional game until HoT. Today the focus has shifted more into the mandatory direction if you want to be on equal standing with the defendants of hardcore gaming in the eyes of Anet.

> >

>

> So your argument is: indoor soccer requires 6 people, not 11?

>

> True, yet it remains a team sport and indoor soccer, while similar has a completely different set of rules. The one common thing though is: it remains a team sport.

>

> Actually untrue, there was and still is multiple MMOs where you never could progress without grouping in the past (DAoC, FFXI, etc.) and many activities in MMOs to this day are group only (dungeons, raids, open world bosses (in many MMOs), challenging open world areas, etc.).

>

> The move to a more single player experience came with WoW and the market trying to appeal to a bigger more casual crowd. Now some might argue this was one of the first steps to the end of MMORPGs, I'm not quite that dramatic. It was the move to a less community centric and less interactive experience though. Case in point: you can level in most modern MMORPGs without ever speaking to a single person or interacting with any one. That's actually the slow poison which kills the genre. Might as well just play a single player game in that case.

 

The more amateur a sport like football gets, the more are the rules softened. How many sport lessons in school had football as content, and how many of them ran according to the full rules of the FIFA or just had even teams because not enough players or players with the will to play were available? The last time I checked, GW2 has not been a sport. Not even a competitive ESport or a school lesson.

 

I can´t speak for FF or Ultima. I did not play FF and am too young for Ultima, although an older friend told me that it was a very good and addictive game for the tools of its time. He is a medical doctor and kills monsters in Asian grinders because he wants to vent when he returns from the thankless work of a hospital doctor, still he mastered all Ultimas and the puzzlebox game Myth like a pro if he wanted. I never heard him complain once about how he felt alone and could not play X.

 

I can speak for DAoC. Classic, Shrouded Isles and ToA at least. DaoC had no instanced raids, dungeons like Mithra and Stonehenge were open grounds where you could come and go as you pleased. Stonehenge for example had a limited number of spots to farm alone or with a group. If you did not have a buffbot or were a necromancer, an orange mob was a really serious thread that could do you in if a blue added. Both the raids in the shrouded isles and in classic DAoC were skrittholes of an environment, badly programmed and seldomly used. I lividly remember how I wasted a full sunday in the shrouded island raid area with countless restarts for the dungeon of the four horsemen for a really meager loot. Mind you that all this took place without TS, we devided loot by dice rolling.

I am and was a very big admirer of DAoC, I love the Arthur saga. But the idea that you could not play it alone or that it was a milestone of dangerous mobs and razorsharp players everywhere is simply wrong. My necromancer killed yellow mobs before they could raise a hand against him. It was a long winded grind then, but it was a casual fun you could do with one eye aimed at the general direction of the screen.

 

Like it or not, a game like GW2 does not work without a casual player base, not even first person shooters do. The first time i came into contact with organized gaming for the sake of playing on a higher level it was in Team Fortress Classic. A true blooded first person shooter on a very small map. In DAoC, I was a veteran member of the Knights of arctic Circle, one of the top 5 guilds of the biggest Camelot alliance on Salisbury. I had a lot of very nice guild members who were quite competetive, but joining them when a place was free was never a problem for them, equipment was never the question. Bring that back, then you also have a point in asking for more competitive activities.

[Joxer.6024]

Oh Camelot...the joy of that game and the lore was so cool! Final Fantasy was and always will be a classic with story, music and gameplay as well. But......where the heck have you guys taken this thread!!!! Wholly moley Batpeoples!!! The OP struggles with getting in raids, that's all. We all did at some and a lot still do. They (the OP) will be fine if they persevere and follow some of the advice given.

All this deep thinking though would scare anyone away.....lol, did my head in but I'm old so maybe that's it but yea.....kinda off track whilest trying to make a point perhaps?

Then again I could be way off.....been known to be many times :p

OP, just hang in there and you be right!

[Turin.6921]

> @"Belorn.2659" said:

> Seems like an advertisement issue if you feel like there is no training guilds.

>

> Know one guild on Na that usually run training at 2am, 4am and 9:30 am (server time), spread out during the week.

 

It is an "I am too lazy to google issue". Training guilds and communities are everywhere. If you just google "guild wars 2 raid training" the first 4 results have everything you need no matter where you are.

 

Even the snowcrows have it on their page:

 

https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/

 

But the OP and everyone else are either too lazy you do a simple google search or just want to pretend to be victims, thus they just ignore whatever exits that invalidates their complain.

 

If you are new DO NOT PUG a raid. There is no need to go through that process if you cannot handle the few toxic groups and there is no need to lie about your experience. Just join a community. There are literally thousands of ppl like you there and for ppl that do not want to create ties with others these communities have enough of a population that you can keep everything impersonal if you really want to. It is that easy. No need for drama, poems or imaginary dialogs.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > So you picked the only door that is usless?

> > > > > > The Complain in the forums instead of actually trying?

> > > > > > Because, son, A LOT of guilds do raids and don't ask for Li.

> > > > > > What they usually ask is, learn the encounters, read about it, and have a build that isn't utterly useless. Having 200 Li is a way to verify that when people are in a hurry (ie. LFG).

> > > > > > If you're being recruited by a guild asking for Li (never really saw that happening), there's 10 guilds that don't for every one that does.

> > > > > > kitten, i'm tired of people like this...

> > > > > > It's a MMORPG, if you want to play these things alone, IT'S THE WRONG GENRE! There's a metric ton of better games, with better graphics, better story, a ton of hours of play, that are made for you! Go play the Witcher series or something.

> > > > > > Now if you want to play an MMORPG, get a group of friends, if you don't have one, find one, join a guild, have fun with them, try raids. If you fail it's ok, you had fun.

> > > > > > The first day Raids got out, i grabbed the 6 guys that were on at the time, and we just went into the raid knowing it was hard, that it was hard for 10 guys and that we wouldn't make anything of it. So we did the first 3 elites, got to VG wiped 3 times, and just went back to playing fractals, knowing that next time we at least knew a bit more of the mechanics that we did before.

> > > > > > Now there's a lot less active guys on my guild, but we still try raids, mostly with pugs filling the holes, and we fail a lot, but at least it's fun even when it's not frustrating. And there's always the weekly escort.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It is a simple and empirically tested truth that playing with others is not exclusively a static experience with the same people over and over again at the same place and in the same time. Playing as a human desire predates culture, so the one true form of group play can´t be one dictated by your or my cultural preference.

> > > > > To see if I am right, enter any organization that houses juveniles and children and ask the most conservative teacher, kindergarten teacher or educator for a sociogram of a given peer group, a single class or just 5 pupils from the same class. You will still find a center of attention, the cool kids so to say. You will find an orbit of less cool kids who drop in and out of the circle of the cool kids. You will find children that walk only to their own drum from a very young age, and you will find kids that nowhere fit in at the first glance. No matter of cultural education will change that and at the end of a given group life cycle, the people will fall back into the roles they feel most comfortable with if left alone.

> > > > >

> > > > > tl;dr : Your desire to play a MMO with friends is not the only valid one.

> > > >

> > > > You can't play a soccer match without 2 teams of 11 players each.

> > > >

> > > > Doesn't mean that sport is broken and needs fixing.

> > > >

> > > > This is a MMORPG and an online multiplayer game. Having no multiplayer content goes against its very core design idea.

> > >

> > > Because people did not want to have 11 guys per team exclusively and play it only outside when the weather was ok, futsol and indoor football were invented. Video evidence was included recently. League modes frequently change.

> > > All these measures did not attack the game itself, it did attack the rules of the game.

> > >

> > > There are no static rules for playing an MMO. You can play an MMO without grouping, you always could. So you can´t say that one way is more right than another one. What you see as mandatory I think of as optional. GW2 was a very optional game until HoT. Today the focus has shifted more into the mandatory direction if you want to be on equal standing with the defendants of hardcore gaming in the eyes of Anet.

> > >

> >

> > So your argument is: indoor soccer requires 6 people, not 11?

> >

> > True, yet it remains a team sport and indoor soccer, while similar has a completely different set of rules. The one common thing though is: it remains a team sport.

> >

> > Actually untrue, there was and still is multiple MMOs where you never could progress without grouping in the past (DAoC, FFXI, etc.) and many activities in MMOs to this day are group only (dungeons, raids, open world bosses (in many MMOs), challenging open world areas, etc.).

> >

> > The move to a more single player experience came with WoW and the market trying to appeal to a bigger more casual crowd. Now some might argue this was one of the first steps to the end of MMORPGs, I'm not quite that dramatic. It was the move to a less community centric and less interactive experience though. Case in point: you can level in most modern MMORPGs without ever speaking to a single person or interacting with any one. That's actually the slow poison which kills the genre. Might as well just play a single player game in that case.

>

> The more amateur a sport like football gets, the more are the rules softened. How many sport lessons in school had football as content, and how many of them ran according to the full rules of the FIFA or just had even teams because not enough players or players with the will to play were available? The last time I checked, GW2 has not been a sport. Not even a competitive ESport or a school lesson.

 

You brought up rules. I merely obliged by showing that group activities (using the most popular one world wide) have a set of rules and as social activities are not questioned. I could pick a random number of popular board games (or card games) if you'd like which require a minimum number of players to even work.

 

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

>

> I can´t speak for FF or Ultima. I did not play FF and am too young for Ultima, although an older friend told me that it was a very good and addictive game for the tools of its time. He is a medical doctor and kills monsters in Asian grinders because he wants to vent when he returns from the thankless work of a hospital doctor, still he mastered all Ultimas and the puzzlebox game Myth like a pro if he wanted. I never heard him complain once about how he felt alone and could not play X.

>

> I can speak for DAoC. Classic, Shrouded Isles and ToA at least. DaoC had no instanced raids, dungeons like Mithra and Stonehenge were open grounds where you could come and go as you pleased. Stonehenge for example had a limited number of spots to farm alone or with a group. If you did not have a buffbot or were a necromancer, an orange mob was a really serious thread that could do you in if a blue added. Both the raids in the shrouded isles and in classic DAoC were skrittholes of an environment, badly programmed and seldomly used. I lividly remember how I wasted a full sunday in the shrouded island raid area with countless restarts for the dungeon of the four horsemen for a really meager loot. Mind you that all this took place without TS, we devided loot by dice rolling.

> I am and was a very big admirer of DAoC, I love the Arthur saga. But the idea that you could not play it alone or that it was a milestone of dangerous mobs and razorsharp players everywhere is simply wrong. My necromancer killed yellow mobs before they could raise a hand against him. It was a long winded grind then, but it was a casual fun you could do with one eye aimed at the general direction of the screen.

 

Necromancers were added way later in the game with expansions. Many if not all the high level areas required group play and leveling was near impossible without a group or it would literally take ages.

 

The quality of the content does not matter, the fact that it was forced group content does. You seem to have joined DAoC at a very late stage and after many revamps and adjustments to its declining playerbase. The game was definately not solo friendly. I'm also not saying that all steps are bad to encourage a bigger part of the player market to play MMORPGs. If that were the case I would be against any type of solo content, which I am not. I simply object to this notion that EVERYTHING needs to be soloable in a game which at its core is designed for many players (hence the name massively multiplayer).

 

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

>

> Like it or not, a game like GW2 does not work without a casual player base, not even first person shooters do. The first time i came into contact with organized gaming for the sake of playing on a higher level it was in Team Fortress Classic. A true blooded first person shooter on a very small map. In DAoC, I was a veteran member of the Knights of arctic Circle, one of the top 5 guilds of the biggest Camelot alliance on Salisbury. I had a lot of very nice guild members who were quite competetive, but joining them when a place was free was never a problem for them, equipment was never the question. Bring that back, then you also have a point in asking for more competitive activities.

 

No one is asking for the casual playerbase to be removed. Can you really argue that not the majority of the games content is designed for casual players (over 90%)? Want me to make a list of how much content and what type of content was added only between the last 2 raid wings? This approach is both reflected in the amount of developers working on different parts of the game as well as the amount of content released.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > Seems like an advertisement issue if you feel like there is no training guilds.

> >

> > Know one guild on Na that usually run training at 2am, 4am and 9:30 am (server time), spread out during the week.

>

> It is an "I am too lazy to google issue". Training guilds and communities are everywhere. If you just google "guild wars 2 raid training" the first 4 results have everything you need no matter where you are.

>

> Even the snowcrows have it on their page:

>

> https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/

>

> But the OP and everyone else are either too lazy you do a simple google search or just want to pretend to be victims, thus they just ignore whatever exits that invalidates their complain.

>

> If you are new DO NOT PUG a raid. There is no need to go through that process if you cannot handle the few toxic groups and there is no need to lie about your experience. Just join a community. There are literally thousands of ppl like you there. It is that easy. No need for drama, poems or imaginary dialogs.

>

Is this helpful comments or hurtful comments?

 

 

[Turin.6921]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > Seems like an advertisement issue if you feel like there is no training guilds.

> > >

> > > Know one guild on Na that usually run training at 2am, 4am and 9:30 am (server time), spread out during the week.

> >

> > It is an "I am too lazy to google issue". Training guilds and communities are everywhere. If you just google "guild wars 2 raid training" the first 4 results have everything you need no matter where you are.

> >

> > Even the snowcrows have it on their page:

> >

> > https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/

> >

> > But the OP and everyone else are either too lazy you do a simple google search or just want to pretend to be victims, thus they just ignore whatever exits that invalidates their complain.

> >

> > If you are new DO NOT PUG a raid. There is no need to go through that process if you cannot handle the few toxic groups and there is no need to lie about your experience. Just join a community. There are literally thousands of ppl like you there. It is that easy. No need for drama, poems or imaginary dialogs.

> >

> Is this helpful comments or hurtful comments?

>

>

 

Not mutually exclusive...But it depends on a person's mentality i suppose.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > Me: Other ways?

> > Man: You could try to find 9 other people like you and smash the door in.

> > Me: And this works?

> > Man: Never seen it work, but many tried it.

> > Me: So i cant enter.

> > Man: Looks like it.

> > Me: Well thank you for your time.

> > Man: Oh one last thing. Next time it will be 300 Li.

>

> So how did all the current raiders start out?

>

> Stop trying to skip ahead of the line. You have no experience so wanting to join experienced groups obviously won't work.

>

> Join training runs or normal guilds that raid (no applying to Snow Crows, Quantify or some other high skill raiding guild does not qualify as "trying to join a guild").

>

> Your problem is not that people are wanting 200 LI. Your problem is that you are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually gain experience but instead want to leech off of other people carrying through the raid getting taken along for a ride on their work.

 

When current raiders started out nobody asked for 100 LI. People just asked to bring class XY and the right gear.

[Torolan.5816]

You can play the largest majority of board or cardgames with two people. Most get better when you are around 3 or 4 players. Laying cards for example is a one man card game, and it is a socially accepted game.

 

After a quick glance into DAoC wiki I remembered how mad I was when labyrinth of the minotaur came out and how I was astounded by champion levels in Darkness Rising.

I started with classic DAoC out only, although I wasn´t a first hour player. Still I leveled my first character, a paladin of all available classes, in Stonehenge and Lyoness, the swampy wasteland map that was the place to level in before Shrouded Isles came out. I always leveled alone or with random groups as I don´t believe in working my guildmates until they level with me to shut me up. Maybe you remember the phrase that two people meet, one is a paladin and the other does no damage too.^^

Generous senior members of your guild would pick you up and escort you to a dungeon for some time and level you up then and when, I did too when I became a senior member.

You could jump from the horse and run straight to Avalon City where you asked in map chat for group, so easy was grouping then. Beginners stayed close to the entrance to have the option to escape when the group wiped, the Bold and the Beautiful went left or right a little above the entrance and mass farmed there with a paladin, a cleric with battery ready and some damage dealer like a mercenary with two social places.

 

I am not against challenging content. i am against instanced challenging content because that always lands in the hands of maxers, elitists and speedrunners in the end. As I already said, DAoC raid areas were a really bad programmed cesspool but they were open for anyone that was tough enough to fight his or her way through the respawned guardians. Give me Caer Sidi or City of Avalon or just Krondon and I will fight at your side for guts and glory.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > Seems like an advertisement issue if you feel like there is no training guilds.

> > > >

> > > > Know one guild on Na that usually run training at 2am, 4am and 9:30 am (server time), spread out during the week.

> > >

> > > It is an "I am too lazy to google issue". Training guilds and communities are everywhere. If you just google "guild wars 2 raid training" the first 4 results have everything you need no matter where you are.

> > >

> > > Even the snowcrows have it on their page:

> > >

> > > https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/

> > >

> > > But the OP and everyone else are either too lazy you do a simple google search or just want to pretend to be victims, thus they just ignore whatever exits that invalidates their complain.

> > >

> > > If you are new DO NOT PUG a raid. There is no need to go through that process if you cannot handle the few toxic groups and there is no need to lie about your experience. Just join a community. There are literally thousands of ppl like you there. It is that easy. No need for drama, poems or imaginary dialogs.

> > >

> > Is this helpful comments or hurtful comments?

> >

> >

>

> Not mutually exclusive...But it depends on a person's mentality i suppose.

 

We should probably try to support one another better, instead of going down other routes.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > Me: Other ways?

> > > Man: You could try to find 9 other people like you and smash the door in.

> > > Me: And this works?

> > > Man: Never seen it work, but many tried it.

> > > Me: So i cant enter.

> > > Man: Looks like it.

> > > Me: Well thank you for your time.

> > > Man: Oh one last thing. Next time it will be 300 Li.

> >

> > So how did all the current raiders start out?

> >

> > Stop trying to skip ahead of the line. You have no experience so wanting to join experienced groups obviously won't work.

> >

> > Join training runs or normal guilds that raid (no applying to Snow Crows, Quantify or some other high skill raiding guild does not qualify as "trying to join a guild").

> >

> > Your problem is not that people are wanting 200 LI. Your problem is that you are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually gain experience but instead want to leech off of other people carrying through the raid getting taken along for a ride on their work.

>

> When current raiders started out nobody asked for 100 LI. People just asked to bring class XY and the right gear.

 

Untrue, why are people always assuming that there was 1 generation of raiders and now the entire player base is split into 2 groups, the can and the can nots.

 

There is varying degrees of experience especially in the raiding community. Not to mention varying degrees of player skill.

 

What about people who started out 3 months ago and are now close to 50-100 LI?

 

What about people who started 6 months ago?

 

What about people who started 9 months ago?

 

Etc.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > Me: Other ways?

> > > Man: You could try to find 9 other people like you and smash the door in.

> > > Me: And this works?

> > > Man: Never seen it work, but many tried it.

> > > Me: So i cant enter.

> > > Man: Looks like it.

> > > Me: Well thank you for your time.

> > > Man: Oh one last thing. Next time it will be 300 Li.

> >

> > So how did all the current raiders start out?

> >

> > Stop trying to skip ahead of the line. You have no experience so wanting to join experienced groups obviously won't work.

> >

> > Join training runs or normal guilds that raid (no applying to Snow Crows, Quantify or some other high skill raiding guild does not qualify as "trying to join a guild").

> >

> > Your problem is not that people are wanting 200 LI. Your problem is that you are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually gain experience but instead want to leech off of other people carrying through the raid getting taken along for a ride on their work.

>

> When current raiders started out nobody asked for 100 LI. People just asked to bring class XY and the right gear.

 

in the first week, absolutly, but not completly true. there were already "<50% exp" requirements on lfg on release day.

requirements change over time, which is only logical.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> You can play the largest majority of board or cardgames with two people. Most get better when you are around 3 or 4 players. Laying cards for example is a one man card game, and it is a socially accepted game.

 

True, but those games that are designed for multiple people are played just like that: with multiple people.

 

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

>

> After a quick glance into DAoC wiki I remembered how mad I was when labyrinth of the minotaur came out and how I was astounded by champion levels in Darkness Rising.

> I started with classic DAoC out only, although I wasn´t a first hour player. Still I leveled my first character, a paladin of all available classes, in Stonehenge and Lyoness, the swampy wasteland map that was the place to level in before Shrouded Isles came out. I always leveled alone or with random groups as I don´t believe in working my guildmates until they level with me to shut me up. Maybe you remember the phrase that two people meet, one is a paladin and the other does no damage too.^^

> Generous senior members of your guild would pick you up and escort you to a dungeon for some time and level you up then and when, I did too when I became a senior member.

> You could jump from the horse and run straight to Avalon City where you asked in map chat for group, so easy was grouping then. Beginners stayed close to the entrance to have the option to escape when the group wiped, the Bold and the Beautiful went left or right a little above the entrance and mass farmed there with a paladin, a cleric with battery ready and some damage dealer like a mercenary with two social places.

>

> I am not against challenging content. i am against instanced challenging content because that always lands in the hands of maxers, elitists and speedrunners in the end. As I already said, DAoC raid areas were a really bad programmed cesspool but they were open for anyone that was tough enough to fight his or her way through the respawned guardians. Give me Caer Sidi or City of Avalon or just Krondon and I will fight at your side for guts and glory.

 

That's a matter of personal preference. Personally I find challenging instanced content easier to manage and adjust. Challenging open world content ends in exactly 3 ways:

 

- either it gets shunned

- is way to easy

or

- it requires massive amounts of organization locking out single player players

 

We have 1 such event: it's called Triple Wurm

 

It's great fun, and I assure you a big majority of players have never completed it.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > Seems like an advertisement issue if you feel like there is no training guilds.

> > >

> > > Know one guild on Na that usually run training at 2am, 4am and 9:30 am (server time), spread out during the week.

> >

> > It is an "I am too lazy to google issue". Training guilds and communities are everywhere. If you just google "guild wars 2 raid training" the first 4 results have everything you need no matter where you are.

> >

> > Even the snowcrows have it on their page:

> >

> > https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/

> >

> > But the OP and everyone else are either too lazy you do a simple google search or just want to pretend to be victims, thus they just ignore whatever exits that invalidates their complain.

> >

> > If you are new DO NOT PUG a raid. There is no need to go through that process if you cannot handle the few toxic groups and there is no need to lie about your experience. Just join a community. There are literally thousands of ppl like you there. It is that easy. No need for drama, poems or imaginary dialogs.

> >

> Is this helpful comments or hurtful comments?

>

>

 

Helpful if you’re actuallt interested into getting into raids. Hurtful if you have determined that raids are inaccessible and toxic without even trying, as the fact of accessibility is hurting your image of being a victim.

 

 

[Torolan.5816]

I agree that many people probably never played 3headed worm despit its very high quality and that this is a a shame.

 

I also agree when you say that it requires organisation, but I see a glaring difference in the organisation aspect:

If i want to join a 3 headed, I can do it with the stuff I am currently clad in. My class makes the difference, not my equipment. Nobody asks me for anything except my class, the organisation the TS you participate with gives you a general skill direction and asks for able people to block eggs. Nobody cares if you have experience or Li or whatever, the fine people who organize stuff there explain it to even the most meatheaded bruiser. And the most delighting aspect about that event is that people who are on the chosen map by chance can join and never set foot in TS, you don´t even need to understand the language as you can just jog along with one of the three crews . I joined many of such runs, some on a whim.

 

If Anet would have stayed on that course, instanced hard content would have been completely unnecessary. But somehow they failed or someone high in the ranks thought that it would be neat to have the same hardcore mentality like in so many cloned games that people call MMOs. You know, the kind of people that can´t stand to share with those who are not as good as they are, even when they have nothing at stake.

[Joxer.6024]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> I agree that many people probably never played 3headed worm despit its very high quality and that this is a a shame.

>

> I also agree when you say that it requires organisation, but I see a glaring difference in the organisation aspect:

> If i want to join a 3 headed, I can do it with the stuff I am currently clad in. My class makes the difference, not my equipment. Nobody asks me for anything except my class, the organisation the TS you participate with gives you a general skill direction and asks for able people to block eggs. Nobody cares if you have experience or Li or whatever, the fine people who organize stuff there explain it to even the most meatheaded bruiser. And the most delighting aspect about that event is that people who are on the chosen map by chance can join and never set foot in TS, you don´t even need to understand the language as you can just jog along with one of the three crews . I joined many of such runs, some on a whim.

>

> If Anet would have stayed on that course, instanced hard content would have been completely unnecessary. But somehow they failed or someone high in the ranks thought that it would be neat to have the same hardcore mentality like in so many cloned games that people call MMOs. You know, the kind of people that can´t stand to share with those who are not as good as they are, even when they have nothing at stake.

 

Blizzard did that, with their LFR (Looking for Raid). All you did was check a box, tank/healer/dps and the game put you in a group of either 10 or 25, again, your choice, and off you went. Now the only "limits" they set was the gear score (ilvl) set up in the game that stopped level 10 folks from getting such rewards but overall it was a decent system that got rid of the elitism that so often comes from raids and raiding. eventually it killed a lot of raid guilds/teams as people could just join up at any time, do the raid and be done, no pressure.

GW2 might benefit from something like that, where its the game and not individual people making the groups. But with the raid mechanics and group makeup needs for the raids in GW2 I doubt it. Even though its been said many times "any" class can raid you do need to hit certain criteria if you hope to succeed. Throwing together 10 completely random classes would go over like a fart in a space suit in this game. But with some tweaking perhaps ANET could design something that took it out of the hands of the people, or have it be another option instead of the easy mode people are crying for?

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> I agree that many people probably never played 3headed worm despit its very high quality and that this is a a shame.

>

> I also agree when you say that it requires organisation, but I see a glaring difference in the organisation aspect:

> If i want to join a 3 headed, I can do it with the stuff I am currently clad in. My class makes the difference, not my equipment. Nobody asks me for anything except my class, the organisation the TS you participate with gives you a general skill direction and asks for able people to block eggs. Nobody cares if you have experience or Li or whatever, the fine people who organize stuff there explain it to even the most meatheaded bruiser. And the most delighting aspect about that event is that people who are on the chosen map by chance can join and never set foot in TS, you don´t even need to understand the language as you can just jog along with one of the three crews . I joined many of such runs, some on a whim.

>

 

I disagree, if you are already fine with people joining voice chats you are way past the state of what most experienced PUG raid groups require. The difference is, personal accountability in open world events is non existent. While for raids it is essential. Individual skill is almost of no consequence, just numbers in open world events.

 

That's unhealthy motivation wise and going by Triple Wurm and the amount of players successfully completing it, I highly doubt making more such events would be a popular decision. Just look at the outrage about original HoT meta events, all of which were drastically reduced in difficulty.

 

If you want the game to remain casual friendly, difficult open world events is not the way to go. That's been sufficiently established in this game in the past.

 

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> If Anet would have stayed on that course, instanced hard content would have been completely unnecessary. But somehow they failed or someone high in the ranks thought that it would be neat to have the same hardcore mentality like in so many cloned games that people call MMOs. You know, the kind of people that can´t stand to share with those who are not as good as they are, even when they have nothing at stake.

 

I keep seeing this argument made and I keep thinking:"What kind of nonsense is this?" This is not a debate about the have and have nots. The raid fights are not that difficult. The community offers vast amount of opportunities for new players to join raids. The mere fact that people have to link to simple google searches, popular training discord servers, training guild websites just shows 1 thing: the utter lack and/or disinterest by certain individuals to invest even the absolute minimum of effort into actually raiding.

 

There is some legitimate issues with raids for a fraction of the player base:

- time constraints for people who have absolute no time for gaming

- disabilities

- disorders or very severe cases of introverse people

- age

 

I feel for all of them, I disagree that the challenging content needs to get balanced around those factors though. Everyone else is more than capable to raid. The question if they want to or not is for each individual to decide.

[Torolan.5816]

And that brings me to two questions:

Why should I be personally held accountible for progress in my free time and for doing an activity that I do for fun? i don´t get paid, I don´t prepare for a contest.

Why is raid difficulty held in high esteem on one side and downplayed on the other side? It has to be hard vs it isn´t that hard does not make much sense to me. The only solution I personally see for this dilemma is bragging rights and the unwillingness to share with strangers.