A lot of classes and builds are not wanted in parties/squads

[Vault Girl.6792]

Here is a screenshot from lfg for T4 fractals, that's something I see everyday. Almost everyone wants a party that consists of 3 BS, one mesmer and one druid. Well, some parties are just looking for dps, but even they aren't really happy when a thief or a necro joins them. Often parties wait for more than 30 minutes just because they don't want to start without a mesmer/druid, though it can be done even without these classes.

In WvW rangers, engineers and thieves sometimes get kicked from squads when there is not enough space for guards and scourges.

2 years ago it was a problem only for raids (something I don't even want to mention here), and now almost everything is affected.

 


 

What's the point in adding new specializations, when most of them are not needed anyway?

It doesn't look like balance changes can fix this, it's only getting worse. Do you see any solutions to this problem?

 

(I apologize for any mistakes, English isn't my first language.)

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

What is a BS and what is a KP?

[Seteruss.4058]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> What is a BS and what is a KP?

 

 

BS is warrior bannerslave and kp is killproof from bosses

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

While that's a bit weird to ask and yeah that's starting to look/sound like Raids and not Fractals...

...either way, it's a bit funny as you said they might wait 30 minutes for those specific things, yet would go faster if they just had allowed certain classes in.

Like if you have 2 Mesmers and a Druid in your party already then yeah I can see being picky or something as you don't need so many of one class coming in.

[Timo.1065]

I hate this as well.

I blame Anet for this. Look on new and old fractals.

Old fractals can be done by any class, if you know mecanic and dodge properly.

Last 3 fractals can be done by every class as well, but it's much more harder if you don't have special classes in team.

When i start to play in this game it was so weard for me that in GW2 you don't have to play TRIO (tank, heal, dps).

The main problem is that new content is prepared for TRIO, and Anet don't bring variation of classes that can take partr in this.

Chrono and Druid is "must have" in teams. Cuz of this two its much easier and safer doing fractals. So fractals and little raids now.

Players in fractals dont care abiut dodge and hp or mecanic. Heal is so strong that can outheal damage from bosses.

This chrono, druid, BS, etc. start to make borring this game.

[Death.9268]

Just create your own group. I'm happy with any class as long as people know what they are doing. The meta is more for speed runs.

[Timo.1065]

> @"Death.9268" said:

> Just create your own group. I'm happy with any class as long as people know what they are doing. The meta is more for speed runs.

 

"Create your on group" This become remedy for every ploblem in this game.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> It doesn't look like balance changes can fix this, it's only getting worse. Do you see any solutions to this problem?

The practical solution is rather simple: make your own lfg. Works fine and does not take 30 min to fill up.

 

On a broader scale, some small balance changes like the ones we have seen in the past indeed will not be able to alleviate this issue. A lot of it comes from the community's attitude, since non-CM T4s don't require a lot _and_ it's a lottery mostly whether you get good players or people who just think they are good. However, the general game design also encourages some rather strict group compositions, because of unique class properties that are too strong and concentrated in certain classes. Druids still eclipse any other class as healers (although the gap is smaller than it used to be) because of spirits/spotter/might, chronos can hardly be beaten as quickness/alacrity/utility bots, warrior banners+EA are also extremely strong. Imho, there should be a complete paradigm shift in class design by removing the uniqueness of certain buffs, always having multiple classes that can bring a certain effect and properly distributing buffs so we don't have a few classes that bring all.

 

 

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Death.9268" said:

> Just create your own group. I'm happy with any class as long as people know what they are doing. The meta is more for speed runs.

 

Yes, but how would "just creating my own group" solve the problem of certain classes being better/more wanted than others?

[Klipso.8653]

> @"Death.9268" said:

> Just create your own group. I'm happy with any class as long as people know what they are doing. The meta is more for speed runs.

 

The picture is literally a screenshot of that not being a solution.

[Haleydawn.3764]

Seems that people forget this part on a particular build/benchmark website;

“Don’t be a class nazi. Every class can do the job if played correctly. You don’t need the highest possible damage to kill a boss.” ~Qtfy.

 

It’s not necessary to take a chrono or a warrior or a Druid, they give unique buffs as do a lot of professions, but you can’t take every profession into a 5man.

Also the Spellbreaker variant for Warrior with banners is better for 100cm than bs berserker.

 

That being said, this is a community problem not a game mechanic problem.

[Kal Bhairav.6589]

 

> That being said, this is a community problem not a game mechanic problem.

 

Love this line. In a sense, it is true. But, who cares about all other variables.

 

Playing field condition is never the problem. It's always players. LOL lol

 

[Danikat.8537]

This isn't new. Before HoT it was mainly seen in dungeons and PvP but it's been going on since shortly after launch, and the only reason it didn't happen at launch is people hadn't worked out what they wanted in their parties yet.

 

As someone who has mained a ranger since day 1, including back when dungeon groups would kick you so fast you wouldn't even have time to say "I'll swap chars" my advice is to find other groups. Make your own LFG listing with your own requirements, whatever those may be. Maybe say "everyone welcome" or "profession & build doesn't matter" or if you have your own ideas on what makes a good group ask for those. You'd be surprised how often it fills up, especially the ones that let anyone in.

 

I suspect a lot of people get stuck at that point - they look at the LFG tool, don't see any groups they can join and assume that means there aren't any. I'm guilty of it myself. But the important thing to remember is that the LFG tool doesn't actually show everyone who is looking for a group, only those who have taken the extra step of advertising one. So if there aren't any for you to join all it means is no one has taken the initiative yet, there may well be 4 or 10 or 50 other people just like you waiting for someone to do that and all it takes is 1 person advertising to kick things off.

 

Alternatively see if you can do them with your guild (or find a guild to join them with if not). Guilds are often a lot more forgiving because they're doing it for fun or to help each other out rather than doing speed clears for the rewards. So they're more likely to be flexible about not just what profession and build you use but also people not knowing where to go or what to do and getting downed/dying. They're often more fun as well IMO because it's a group of people who know each other, a little bit at least, and have something in common beyond wanting to finish the run.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Kal Bhairav.6589" said:

>

> > That being said, this is a community problem not a game mechanic problem.

>

> Love this line. In a sense, it is true. But, who cares about all other variables.

>

> Playing field condition is never the problem. It's always players. LOL lol

>

 

So, Anet should fix something that isn’t broken because parties formed on lfg are classist? Right.

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> Seems that people forget this part on a particular build/benchmark website;

> “Don’t be a class kitten. Every class can do the job if played correctly. You don’t need the highest possible damage to kill a boss.” ~Qtfy.

>

> It’s not necessary to take a chrono or a warrior or a Druid, they give unique buffs as do a lot of professions, but you can’t take every profession into a 5man.

> Also the Spellbreaker variant for Warrior with banners is better for 100cm.

>

> That being said, this is a community problem not a game mechanic problem.

 

This is also a community problem, yes, but it is caused by problems with the game mechanic. People just take classes that are the most beneficial for the group, and I can't blame them for that. What can a necro give to the group? A thief? An engineer? A core ranger? A revenant? They can neither heal the group as well as a druid can, nor provide 25 stacks of might. Of course people prefer other classes.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > Seems that people forget this part on a particular build/benchmark website;

> > “Don’t be a class kitten. **Every class can do the job** if played correctly. You don’t need the highest possible damage to kill a boss.” ~Qtfy.

 

I bolded the point you missed.

 

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

>What can a necro give to the group?

AoE weakness, blinds, CC AoE Protection.

A thief? High damage, CC, Stealth.

An engineer? Pinpoint Precision

A core ranger? Spirits

A revenant? Assasins Precense.

 

There’s a few unique buffs outside of the professions you are complaining about.

 

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> > @"Death.9268" said:

> > Just create your own group. I'm happy with any class as long as people know what they are doing. The meta is more for speed runs.

>

> Yes, but how would "just creating my own group" solve the problem of certain classes being better/more wanted than others?

 

Because the problem isn't that the content is so difficult and the mechanics so precise that only one specific combination of professions all using exactly the right skills is able to complete it. With the possible exception of raids any combination of builds can complete anything.

 

The problem is that the majority of people using the LFG tool aren't simply looking to finish it - they're doing speed clears where they want to get in and get finished as quickly as possible. And for that they need everything to go right on the first try and for fights to be over as soon as possible. That is much more demanding that simply finishing the content. But even then the professions they're asking for aren't necessarily the only way to do it, or even the best, they're just the format that is currently the most popular (usually, but not always, because the players who decide these things think it's the best anyone has come up with so far).

 

So no, making your own listing won't change anything overall. The people doing speed clears are not going to have a sudden epiphany where they remember that it is possible for other professions to complete the content. But what it will do is enable you to find enough like-minded people to complete the content with. So the problem of popular builds is no longer your problem - you can leave the speed clear groups to it and do things your own way instead.

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> AoE weakness, blinds, CC AoE Protection.

> A thief? High damage, CC, Stealth.

> An engineer? Pinpoint Precision

> A core ranger? Spirits

> A revenant? Assasins Precense.

>

> There’s a few unique buffs outside of the professions you are complaining about.

 

Are these things as beneficial as those that BS, mesmers and druids can provide? I doubt it. But if so, why don't people want these classes? Maybe the community has a reason to be classist?

 

[Rhiannon.1726]

There will always be a meta.

We already had that during the dungeon times. There were lots of complaints on the forum from rangers that they got kicked as soon as they joined a group.

 

Four of the six lfgs are CMs. When you run with strangers you want to minimize the risk to fail and therefore you want to have the best possible group compisition.

One lfg asks for dps and that could be any profession.

The other lfg already has two dps (guard and necro), so of course it makes sense to ask for support. When you only have dps in your group, everyone has to be really good, or you'll be in downstate most of the time.

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

The guy above said it best.

 

There will always be a meta.

/topic

[Danikat.8537]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> The guy above said it best.

>

> There will always be a meta.

> /topic

 

Agreed.

 

If in doubt look at what happens with other games. There are people who will meta-game single player RPGs where what you do affects no one but you - and they have the same attitude - insisting that one build is better than therefore everyone should use it.

 

There are games (typically RTS games) where the developers have gone out of their way to make sure every side, or even every unit, is utterly identical and have told players that. So players find the tiniest differences to choose between - one has brighter colours so it's easier to see your units, one has duller colours so it's harder for the enemy to see your units. One has shorter animations so they will move 0.2s sooner and therefore everything you do is faster. One has shorter file paths for their sound effects so it takes less time for the computer to load them...etc.

 

Some people always want there to be a 'best' way or a right way to do things. They want to be able to do it faster and better than average. It's similar logic to the superstitious around RNG - that if you do things in a particular way you'll get better results, even if it makes no sense (and in some cases it's actually anything to do with the game - I know someone who always closes her eyes when opening a Black Lion Chest because she says the results are better if she does). And just like RNG superstitions because they want there to be one they will find it, whether it's there or not.

 

You can argue till the cows come home that they're wrong and shouldn't do it that way. You can ask for everything to be made absolutely equal and identical so there can't be a best way. And you'll get no where. Or you can leave them to it and play the way you want to play with like-minded people.

[Takoyakii.2146]

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > Seems that people forget this part on a particular build/benchmark website;

> > “Don’t be a class kitten. Every class can do the job if played correctly. You don’t need the highest possible damage to kill a boss.” ~Qtfy.

> >

> > It’s not necessary to take a chrono or a warrior or a Druid, they give unique buffs as do a lot of professions, but you can’t take every profession into a 5man.

> > Also the Spellbreaker variant for Warrior with banners is better for 100cm.

> >

> > That being said, this is a community problem not a game mechanic problem.

>

> This is also a community problem, yes, but it is caused by problems with the game mechanic. People just take classes that are the most beneficial for the group, and I can't blame them for that. What can a necro give to the group? A thief? An engineer? A core ranger? A revenant? They can neither heal the group as well as a druid can, nor provide 25 stacks of might. Of course people prefer other classes.

 

So what should Anet do? Make T4 frac super faceroll easy that every comp can farm it ? Or have every class be able to give perma boon and have same specific buff so no one will be left out anymore? That kinda silly.

 

Those "left out" class actually can bring something for a group but it just not those speedclear group want. And you can pretty much clear t4 with those classes.

 

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Takoyakii.2146" said:

> So what should Anet do?

 

Well, that's exactly the question I'm asking.

 

> @"Takoyakii.2146" said:

> Make T4 frac super faceroll easy that every comp can farm it ? Or have every class be able to give perma boon and have same specific buff so no one will be left out anymore? That kinda silly.

 

What is _not_ silly then? To pretend that everything is ok and that all classes are equally useful?

[Raizel.8175]

The main problem is that they added the "'holy' trinity" by including Chrono-Tank and Druid-Cleric to a game which is and should be action-based, a game which should support damage-mitigation/avoidance by the correct use of dodges and iFrames, a game where people should work on their own skill rather than dumbing mechanics down due to some spank-'n-tank-playstyle which will always be favoured in games which feature a "'holy' trinity". Using a holy-trinity-composition is always the easiest and safest way to do things.

[Odokuro.5049]

The reason why people build groups like this, is everyone is obsessed with killing speed and ease, if you put in some safety nets like heals and boons, then some heavy dps, that's what people want. It all started way way back when everyone was like, "Hey you full zerker?".