vesica tempestas.1563 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > a non meter user do not complain about meter users because they dont use meters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you mean because the do use meters right? > > > > > > > If so, you are wrong ( just read this thread or any other thread about dps meter and elitism related stuff ). > > > > > > > > > > > > no i meant what i said (its pretty obvious) if you don't use a meter you patently don't care about them or feel the need to try and quantify other players gameplay choices. > > > > > > > > > > It seemed that the one who didn't use the dps meters were the dps meter used, that why i asked. > > > > > Btw as said before, just feel free to browse the forum. > > > > > > > > > > Also the part i edited before you replied > > > > > > > > > > >If people don't care to play with those who instead would like to use a dps meter, there won't be a problem at all. > > > > > But instead here we are, and the fact that the topic is still a problem only shows hypocrisy. > > > > > > > > > > And you can't deny it. > > > > > There's no effort nor respect in what i see ( not you obviously, but those who put blame on elitists ). > > > > > > > > well no, because a (bad) meter user 'may' abuse others 'more' based on a quantification through a tool which will have interpretation in bad spirit. A Bad non meter user will still be a bad user but they wont have access to a tool that deliberately measures the performance of other people that have no interest in being measured (and lets knock the strawman to the head and say all the players are equally skilled) > > > > > > > > > > But since, hypothetically speaking, those who don't use dps mater play with the same kind of players, there won't be a problem. > > > > > > * 5% of the playerbase use dps meter. > > > * that small part advertise in their LFG that they use dps meter and what class/build are they looking for. > > > * In order not to waste time and effort, they also ask for a currency link ( LI )or equip link ( ascended socketed equip ). > > > > > > I mean, how could the 2 worlds collide? > > > Obviously there's no way they can, but the fact to see the whole LFG full of > > > > > > * Sellers > > > * Elitists > > > * Wanna be Elitists > > > > > > discourages the casual, who accuses the elitists because they have tools to find what they search in order to save time. > > > > I agree, but yes it does happen because badly behaved players join pugs with no requirements. **Furthermore, badly behaved players who abuse meters disproportionately negatively impact the experience of others, we have all seen it** > Yeah, that's the point. then we agree. I think meters should be strictly opt-in only because it 'could' trigger a disproportional negative effect which is win win, those that want meters can advertise as such and vice versa. But key is that one cannot be forced apon another - but thats just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > then we agree. I think meters should be strictly opt-in only because it 'could' trigger a disproportional negative effect which is win win, those that want meters can advertise as such and vice versa. But key is that one cannot be forced apon another - but thats just my opinion. Yeah. I am just against removing features just because the majority of players use them in a wrong way ( or else, why would I to limit good elitists with good behavior? ), though sometimes a fix seems to be needed. In my opinion, also, selling raids is not something which helps new players ( or casual with no guild / group of friends ) to start raids ( though it is useful for those who don't want to raid and prefer to pay ). But that's a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaddynnStarr.5201 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 ABSOLUTELY NOT.... if you want to know what skin another is wearing, you can view ALL armors and weapons in the wardrobe of your bank. we do not need another troll tool to encourage elitist play styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingK.9720 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Equipment inspection is pretty much starting to be needed, with the addition and expansion of punishing fractals and raids there really does need to be a proper way to weed out the players that just aren't ready for the content before they cause problems. Every other game that I've played, even NCSoft's other games like BnS and Wildstar had to incorporate things like dps meters and equipment inspection to deal with the preparation needed for content designed to be difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 > @"FlyingK.9720" said: > Equipment inspection is pretty much starting to be needed, with the addition and expansion of punishing fractals and raids there really does need to be a proper way to weed out the players that just aren't ready for the content before they cause problems. Every other game that I've played, even NCSoft's other games like BnS and Wildstar had to incorporate things like dps meters and equipment inspection to deal with the preparation needed for content designed to be difficult. no what we need to weed out are people who think its appropriate to 'weed out' other strangers rather then enjoying good gameplay regardless of wether its a farm fest or hard work because there are players learning or struggling. Failure to defend against this crap and you will end up with WOW 2 where performance > simple pleasure of player with other peopl online. Put it this way, if you were playing a RPG board game with a group of people, you wouldn't tell someone to get out of your house because he is a bad player. Online 'should' be no different if your a decent person. PS it has not been needed in the GW universe for the last decade+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KronosBaelfire.6289 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 > @"Gaellus.6081" said: > Maybe i'm spoiled in other games but i'm quite used to the possibility to see the equipment of other players. With this I mean the hero screen of other players. > Because sometimes I see people with cool looking gear and then it is impossible for me to know what it is. Of course I can ask, which is not a problem and this is what i'm doing at the moment, but it would be handy if we could just right click a player and "view equipment". > I think if someone wants to know what gear I'm wearing they can just ask me. I don't like the idea of someone poking their nose into what I have on my toon whether I'm wearing all ascended, all legendary, or all greens is none of anyone's business. Anytime there's something like this in a game I always shut it off because it opens the door to judgement if your gear doesn't "qualify". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 No thank you for all the very legitimate reasons given above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaeys.3102 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I actually like how things are now. I find it neat when someone asks what a particular skin is or where it came from. Nice bit of social interaction centered around a little flattery. That wouldn't happen if people could just right click and inspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverielle.3972 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Asking I find is much nicer, as it also lets the other player know that you appreciate their look which is always a nice thing to give/receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingK.9720 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"FlyingK.9720" said: > > Equipment inspection is pretty much starting to be needed, with the addition and expansion of punishing fractals and raids there really does need to be a proper way to weed out the players that just aren't ready for the content before they cause problems. Every other game that I've played, even NCSoft's other games like BnS and Wildstar had to incorporate things like dps meters and equipment inspection to deal with the preparation needed for content designed to be difficult. > > no what we need to weed out are people who think its appropriate to 'weed out' other strangers rather then enjoying good gameplay regardless of wether its a farm fest or hard work because there are players learning or struggling. Failure to defend against this crap and you will end up with WOW 2 where performance > simple pleasure of player with other peopl online. Put it this way, if you were playing a RPG board game with a group of people, you wouldn't tell someone to get out of your house because he is a bad player. Online 'should' be no different if your a decent person. > > PS it has not been needed in the GW universe for the last decade+ It has not been needed because the content used to not be demanding, now that the content is becoming more stringent, players are equally demanding of each other. Successful runs are fun; failure, especially constant failure, is not fun. Performing at a high level is fun, being unable to complete the run is grueling and off-putting. GW2 isn't the same game it launched as and for it to continue down the road of being a game with punishing content, it will have to adopt the very same tools available in other games that produce the same content. To throw your example back at you, if your friends are low performing players you don't find the hardest pre-made adventure and try to play through it unmodified. You would instead tailor the content to the players by easing encounters or artificially boosting player stats and health pools. That way the adventure can be completed without everyone being dead in every encounter and constantly feeling frustrated and inept. In the case of GW2, the players don't control the content so we should have the tools at hand to effectively work with what we can control which is party composition and personal performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham.8209 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"FlyingK.9720" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"FlyingK.9720" said: > > > Equipment inspection is pretty much starting to be needed, with the addition and expansion of punishing fractals and raids there really does need to be a proper way to weed out the players that just aren't ready for the content before they cause problems. Every other game that I've played, even NCSoft's other games like BnS and Wildstar had to incorporate things like dps meters and equipment inspection to deal with the preparation needed for content designed to be difficult. > > > > no what we need to weed out are people who think its appropriate to 'weed out' other strangers rather then enjoying good gameplay regardless of wether its a farm fest or hard work because there are players learning or struggling. Failure to defend against this crap and you will end up with WOW 2 where performance > simple pleasure of player with other peopl online. Put it this way, if you were playing a RPG board game with a group of people, you wouldn't tell someone to get out of your house because he is a bad player. Online 'should' be no different if your a decent person. > > > > PS it has not been needed in the GW universe for the last decade+ > > It has not been needed because the content used to not be demanding, now that the content is becoming more stringent, players are equally demanding of each other. Successful runs are fun; failure, especially constant failure, is not fun. Performing at a high level is fun, being unable to complete the run is grueling and off-putting. GW2 isn't the same game it launched as and for it to continue down the road of being a game with punishing content, it will have to adopt the very same tools available in other games that produce the same content. > > To throw your example back at you, if your friends are low performing players you don't find the hardest pre-made adventure and try to play through it unmodified. You would instead tailor the content to the players by easing encounters or artificially boosting player stats and health pools. That way the adventure can be completed without everyone being dead in every encounter and constantly feeling frustrated and inept. In the case of GW2, the players don't control the content so we should have the tools at hand to effectively work with what we can control which is party composition and personal performance. the faces of proism and elitism right their in its fullest . that is what makes the game so bad in so many ways !! and what makes the game that is left of it another wow clone with out all the high end stuff to it more like the stripped down guild wars its self sad to say it but it is the truth !! oh guild wars 2 how you really have fell down and fallen from your once great game name maker guild wars. their are other things that add to this as well . but that is another topic all by its self !! but when this vet sees posts like this well just like i said oh guild wars 2 how you really have fallen from your place in years gone bye . :# :# :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulf.3098 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"FlyingK.9720" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"FlyingK.9720" said: > > > Equipment inspection is pretty much starting to be needed, with the addition and expansion of punishing fractals and raids there really does need to be a proper way to weed out the players that just aren't ready for the content before they cause problems. Every other game that I've played, even NCSoft's other games like BnS and Wildstar had to incorporate things like dps meters and equipment inspection to deal with the preparation needed for content designed to be difficult. > > > > no what we need to weed out are people who think its appropriate to 'weed out' other strangers rather then enjoying good gameplay regardless of wether its a farm fest or hard work because there are players learning or struggling. Failure to defend against this crap and you will end up with WOW 2 where performance > simple pleasure of player with other peopl online. Put it this way, if you were playing a RPG board game with a group of people, you wouldn't tell someone to get out of your house because he is a bad player. Online 'should' be no different if your a decent person. > > > > PS it has not been needed in the GW universe for the last decade+ > > It has not been needed because the content used to not be demanding, now that the content is becoming more stringent, players are equally demanding of each other. Successful runs are fun; failure, especially constant failure, is not fun. Performing at a high level is fun, being unable to complete the run is grueling and off-putting. GW2 isn't the same game it launched as and for it to continue down the road of being a game with punishing content, it will have to adopt the very same tools available in other games that produce the same content. > > To throw your example back at you, if your friends are low performing players you don't find the hardest pre-made adventure and try to play through it unmodified. You would instead tailor the content to the players by easing encounters or artificially boosting player stats and health pools. That way the adventure can be completed without everyone being dead in every encounter and constantly feeling frustrated and inept. In the case of GW2, the players don't control the content so we should have the tools at hand to effectively work with what we can control which is party composition and personal performance. A good group leader already has all the tools available to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmoredVehicle.2849 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I've seen this in asian MMO's, the terrible experience I had with it made me lose interest in the game very fast. Everyone kept asking for exact build xyz which at the time I didn't have, it's already bad enough seeing people asking for specific classes in non-challenge mode fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I support equipment view, as long it shows the gear skin only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaellus.6081 Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 I really poked an interesting discussion point I see. But more or less I agree with the arguments given that it would not be a good idea. Did not put any thought in the whole "judgement" factor it would cause for raids/fractals etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said: > It would make the situations worse in this game. > Especially High-end Fractals and Raids. > > One game I play have it that people used to look at people equipment and stats (which honestly is nice for me as when I see someone with a shirt or pants or hat or earrings or whatever I might want I can look for the name of it and then look up the item in the store to buy), but when they do and it's an event or boss or something specific... people would either kick those in their party or leave the map to go to a better one because "Horrible gear, this mission will fail." or something. Honestly, you don't need to see other peoples' gear to see that it's a bad stat combination for their class and playstyle. When you have two scourges in your fractal group and one does 5 times as much dps than the other, you know the low dps scourge doesn't know anything about how stats work in this game and has mixed gear, probably healing, toughness, etc. each piece of gear with a different combination. I didn't understand how runes work in the first weeks here and just ignored them completely, I'm not blaming people for not knowing. I would use a gear-checker to help people out, and I'm not unique with that attitude. I already message people from time to time after a run, to find out what kind of gear they use. I have never received negative responses, it's all about how you communicate. Unfortunately, communication is a skill lost on so many MMO game players. They rather kick people or leave without a single word. I know from my dps meter that the majority of players in open world content uses bad stat combinations (or just doesn't fight or only hits autoattack). In any squad, no matter if 20 people or 50 people, 80% of the damage comes from 20% of the players. It's an educated guess that this majority has bad gear, no gear-check needed at all. A gear-check would only reveal more details about something we already know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"Gaellus.6081" said: > I really poked an interesting discussion point I see. But more or less I agree with the arguments given that it would not be a good idea. Did not put any thought in the whole "judgement" factor it would cause for raids/fractals etc. Without full visibility of players build and equipement you are already experiencing false judgement in fractals and raids as people who do not use 3rd party gearchecking will judge you based on assumptions not facts. This may result in wrong conclusions and kicking innocent players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipso.8653 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I don't see the need for it, But I mean it doesn't make a difference either way. If you're concerned about raiding, your performance will let them know after the first pull anyway. If anything I wish there was a way to view how much toughness each raid member has so you can ask someone to swap pieces if their toughness is gonna go over the designated tank. But as far as dps goes, i don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said: > > It would make the situations worse in this game. > > Especially High-end Fractals and Raids. > > > > One game I play have it that people used to look at people equipment and stats (which honestly is nice for me as when I see someone with a shirt or pants or hat or earrings or whatever I might want I can look for the name of it and then look up the item in the store to buy), but when they do and it's an event or boss or something specific... people would either kick those in their party or leave the map to go to a better one because "Horrible gear, this mission will fail." or something. > > Honestly, you don't need to see other peoples' gear to see that it's a bad stat combination for their class and playstyle. When you have two scourges in your fractal group and one does 5 times as much dps than the other, you know the low dps scourge doesn't know anything about how stats work in this game and has mixed gear, probably healing, toughness, etc. each piece of gear with a different combination. I didn't understand how runes work in the first weeks here and just ignored them completely, I'm not blaming people for not knowing. > > I would use a gear-checker to help people out, and I'm not unique with that attitude. I already message people from time to time after a run, to find out what kind of gear they use. I have never received negative responses, it's all about how you communicate. Unfortunately, communication is a skill lost on so many MMO game players. They rather kick people or leave without a single word. > > I know from my dps meter that the majority of players in open world content uses bad stat combinations (or just doesn't fight or only hits autoattack). In any squad, no matter if 20 people or 50 people, 80% of the damage comes from 20% of the players. It's an educated guess that this majority has bad gear, no gear-check needed at all. A gear-check would only reveal more details about something we already know. You're not unique because I would try and help too and wouldn't kick/leave. The problem isn't uniqueness, it's a majority. Earlier today I was on a new account. I decided to do Twilight Arbor for the daily as that account never did it. Went to the area and saw no one making parties and no LFG so I made one. The moment I made one I had 4 people quickly join and 3 left. I put it back up in LFG and 3 joined and they left right away again. Did this 2 more times until I started to say in the chat "Are people honestly leaving because this account don't have "259" near my name because I'm a new account and not my main?" THAT'S when the few that joined that was cautious to get into the dungeon decided to get in. The issue as you said is communication. Most don't care for that. All they look is "Ew, newb/noob/beginner/lame stats/armour/gear" and want to leave or kick. This is the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra.3246 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > It would make Raiding even worse, so no thanks. > > > > > > > > It would make it better, because you will know if your team mates are really able to raid instead about just lying about their gear and getting carried in the raid. > > > > > > No it would make it an even more toxic cesspool than it already is. > > > > > > And this is coming from someone with full legendary armour. > > > > Toxic people will be toxic and salty under any circumstance. But I can see your point, there is a lot of salt already in general in raiding, pvp and wvw. > > I honestly find it more amusing watching someone die quickly in a raid than gear checking them. Makes it a more fun scene when your Commander loses his kitten over it. > > *Sips tea* Lmao :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaxTheGreatOne.9472 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 We were on the subject of gear checks. Not DPS meters. I'm able to ping any gear piece at will, or combined. It is perfectly posible to show ppl your stats provided you have non selectable gear. This said: Legendaries will not show stats at all, nor will infusions show. This also shows you should have a measure of faith in some at this time, and I honestly wouldn't mind having and option to render my stats , runes and infusions visible or invisible in pings. I prefer to choose if I ping if needed (like when asked on a LFG). The choice if I do so or not is my own. I normally run meta or former meta builds and ppl who played with me also know I have some personal builds for fun / utility or other gamemodes. This said I have used my minstrel ele in raids and used a lot of non meta builds in content. and I find the liberty of choosing my builds important enough to have stopped raiding, even though I have legendary armor, I have stopped playing t4 fractals with ppl asking for meta or strict classes for certain goals. I'm not going to argue with a group with 2 legendary clad warriors wanting a druid for buffs & heals. The fact people cannot see past the meta and forget former meta instantly tends to be a real let down in this game. It destroys social interaction in favor of rotation robots often with inflatable ego's, who cannot think for themselves (, nope, no AI). This tends to get so bad ppl will reject replacing their renegade runes for their runes of the noble cause they feel they need a druid instead of allowing a person to come in on a auramancer and kicking and accepting they need a couple (or more) minutes to wait to start/continue, often with ticking boosters. It shows the inability, ineptness and inflexibility of the "near mandatory system" I do not wish to be bothered any further with people forcefeeding the community the mandatory control of gear, mostly because they seem to find the checks vital to their (in)ability to complete content and am against any mandatory / forced or secretive gear checks and the ensuing toxicity and elitism. I find the ability, if used on 3rd party tools, a reason to report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korunos.4758 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I'm still for a wardrobe viewer without stats. This would solve everyone's problem. No stat = no elitism Fashion wars would get a nice improvement. I got a ignored a lot of times actually when asked what item he/she's wearing D: So yes please WITHOUT stats!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 All for a character window myself. Including everything from gear to achievements, kill counter, ranks and more. Allow people to display as much or as little of the information as they wish. Not having stats would not solve half of the issues. Unless you prefer for the community to demand potential members to spam link gear or random KPs since that is the only way to know they aren't using chat links. I certainly do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"PaxTheGreatOne.9472" said: > We were on the subject of gear checks. Not DPS meters. > > I'm able to ping any gear piece at will, or combined. It is perfectly posible to show ppl your stats provided you have non selectable gear. > > This said: > Legendaries will not show stats at all, nor will infusions show. This also shows you should have a measure of faith in some at this time, and I honestly wouldn't mind having and option to render my stats , runes and infusions visible or invisible in pings. > > I prefer to choose if I ping if needed (like when asked on a LFG). The choice if I do so or not is my own. I normally run meta or former meta builds and ppl who played with me also know I have some personal builds for fun / utility or other gamemodes. This said I have used my minstrel ele in raids and used a lot of non meta builds in content. and I find the liberty of choosing my builds important enough to have stopped raiding, even though I have legendary armor, I have stopped playing t4 fractals with ppl asking for meta or strict classes for certain goals. > > I'm not going to argue with a group with 2 legendary clad warriors wanting a druid for buffs & heals. > The fact people cannot see past the meta and forget former meta instantly tends to be a real let down in this game. It destroys social interaction in favor of rotation robots often with inflatable ego's, who cannot think for themselves (, nope, no AI). This tends to get so bad ppl will reject replacing their renegade runes for their runes of the noble cause they feel they need a druid instead of allowing a person to come in on a auramancer and kicking and accepting they need a couple (or more) minutes to wait to start/continue, often with ticking boosters. It shows the inability, ineptness and inflexibility of the "near mandatory system" > > I do not wish to be bothered any further with people forcefeeding the community the mandatory control of gear, mostly because they seem to find the checks vital to their (in)ability to complete content and am against any mandatory / forced or secretive gear checks and the ensuing toxicity and elitism. > > I find the ability, if used on 3rd party tools, a reason to report. The comparison of DPS meters is absolutely relevant to this discussion. The same rationalizations they use to allow players to spy others without their knowledge or consent with dps meters have their use when talking about player inspection. Technical posibility of reading game memory is already there as we know. Anet already allows 3rd party hacks to read information not available via game client directly, so why limiting this to dps meters? Gearcheck has the same justification. Anet should just go all in and allow it already. Clearly they don't care about player privacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 > @"Randulf.7614" said: > I'd prefer not to see an inspect equipment feature due to the misuse of it in team situations. I don't think we need more avenues to exclude players than are already cropping up. A social inspect function however I'm sure would be welcomed I agree completely. Idk if its just this mmo but man the community really shames you if you don’t have the right armor on. If you do fractals and pvp and raids. As much as I would be like idc which armor you use. But the community is toxic there. Now me and few people are chill, there’s always at least one guy a day who’s just salty. I would also include raids however you can’t even fight if you don’t show your build to them. Maybe open world and dungeons to see people’s armor would be ok. But those other places Have them block it. Specially since some people use dps meters during zergs. They will kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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