Balance patch considerations

[aelska.4609]

Three days are left to the balance team to _start_ working on tuesday's balance patch. There is a lot of work to do, yet the short deadline imposes a very short amount of fixes. Path of fire sold out so it is time to first "hot-fix" the elites.

 

**Firebrand**:

_The healing potential of this elite is too strong. The changes here should allow the ennemy team to stomp a downstate player more easily, despite the healbot spam_

- Restoring reprieve and rejuvenating respite (heal skills) do not grant aegis anymore.

- Rejuvenating respite has now a 1/4 s cast time.

- Merciful intervention no longer heals the downstates by 20% (changes reverted).

 

**Mirage**:

_This elite safely deals a lots of conditions while being extremely hard to neutralize. The changes here will punish the mirage if it fails to properly dodge the CC preceding a burst._

- Elusive Mind no longer break stun

- Dodging gets prohibited when the player is immobilized

- Jaunt no longer inflicts confusion

 

**Scourge**:

_This elite deals an insane amount of condition damage from AoE skills, which also locks the ennemy team inside by crippling them. The access to barrier, weakness and the base health of this elite make this elite even stronger, by offering it an insane sustain. The changes here should give a chance to the ennemy team to position themselves out of the AoE, and also to burst down the scourge._

- Removed the access to weakness (skills/corrupt table)

- Desert shroud do not follow the scourge anymore

- Manifest Sand Shade do not cripple anymore

 

**Spellbreaker**

_This elite does not bring much compared to the core warrior, and should undergo severe changes to provide a new way of playing the class. In the current state, this elite is chosen almost entirely because of a single skill that has a tooltip longer than my arm. The changes here will keep the spellbreaker almost untouched in 1v1 (so it keeps its supremacy over nearly all the builds), while reducing its efficiency in teamfights._

- Full counter now only affects the ennemy having triggered the attack, and do not negate the incoming damage anymore.

 

**Holosmith**

_This class has huge burst potential but the animations are obvious. However, the damage output from dodging (traits) is too high and has no counter._

- Self-Regulating Defenses will no longer grant invulnerability, but will reduce all incoming damage (condi or power) by 50% for 3s

- Mine trail trait has now a 6s internal cooldown. The mines will no longer trigger if the ennemy is already standing inside them when they have been dropped.

 

**Deadeye**:

_This class does what it is suppose to do: snipe the ennemy from a safe zone. The gameplay is trash and this elite is not especially taken, so the change here is only for the roleplay._

- Free Action has now 1 initiative cost

 

**Soulbeast**:

???

 

**Weaver**:

???

 

**Renegade**:

???

[NotoriousNaru.1705]

Terrible changes

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"NotoriousNaru.1705" said:

> Terrible changes

 

i know we've been here before; at least give some suggestions to the Op post??

[Crinn.7864]

> @"aelska.4609" said:

> **Scourge**:

> - Removed the access to weakness (skills/corrupt table)

 

So basically you want to midly inconvience Scourge, while absolutely destroying Core necro and Reaper's defensive capabilities. All three of your suggested Scourge changes would still leave Scourge meta. (it'd just be more support dependent.) Yet your first change manages to gut core necro. Necros have been applying weakness since 2012, deal with it.

 

I'm sick and tired of all the "Scourge nerf suggestions" that always manage to destroy core necro, while barely slapping Scourge on the wrist. If you want to nerf Scourge, [here is a better way to do it.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19073/how-to-balance-scourge)

 

[Lilyanna.9361]

 

> > **Holosmith**

> _This class has huge burst potential but the animations are obvious. However, the damage output from dodging (traits) is too high and has no counter._

> - Self-Regulating Defenses will no longer grant invulnerability, but will reduce all incoming damage (condi or power) by 50% for 3s

 

 

Yes, let's try to put Holosmith in line, while gutting the only semi-useful trait in that part of the alchemy line and say: destroy scrapper and core Engie even more.

 

Do people even consider other specs, or do they simply not care? I can understand it's annoying, but damn scrapper and core likes those things so they can have a remote chance of a fight you know.

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"aelska.4609" said:

> > **Scourge**:

> > - Removed the access to weakness (skills/corrupt table)

>

> So basically you want to midly inconvience Scourge, while absolutely destroying Core necro and Reaper's defensive capabilities. All three of your suggested Scourge changes would still leave Scourge meta. (it'd just be more support dependent.) Yet your first change manages to gut core necro. Necros have been applying weakness since 2012, deal with it.

>

> I'm sick and tired of all the "Scourge nerf suggestions" that always manage to destroy core necro, while barely slapping Scourge on the wrist. If you want to nerf Scourge, [here is a better way to do it.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19073/how-to-balance-scourge)

>

 

You'd be surprised at how many here are willingly to destroy anything just to keep safe their gimmick...just go the ranger forum where they propose to nerf core ranger to...nerf druid, when explained them that their idea doesn't make sense...guess their answer?

[Mr Godlike.6098]

,,nerf everything that I don't play"

[Rodzynald.5897]

In PvP merciful heals for 5% and in PvE it is 20% soo... yeah that shows how much you don't know about firebrands.

It has to be strong so that FB's team doesn't melt to condi and power damage that PoF's power creep introduced. Besides, FB has obvious weaknesses, it is power damage pressure and lack of mobility. If you focus a firebrand well it is not IF are you going to kill it but WHEN are you going to kill it. It's not a druid that will pop ancestral grace, go invisible, heal up and get back into the fight multiple times.

Firebrand doesn't need any changes and before someone claims bias, I don't play firebrand.

[Vague Memory.2817]

I'm not sure why people even suggest improvements any more. They haven't been listening to players for 3 years. I doubt they will start now.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

I see only nerf here .... It's not a "nerfing patch" but a "balancing patch" Almost all your "nerfs" will make the build go directly to the forgotten zone. (traduction : not playable anymore)

 

And making "the work" only on stronger classes actually is kinda lazy ! If you wanted more attention and more seriousness about your post you should have been gone to the end of it and not letting the post semi-finished.

 

And yeah nerfing the core specs is "stupid" when it's only usefull/OP in the elite spec! then you should look at the elite (not the core) what could be improved (nerfed/buffed)

 

And since you don't give ways to improve revenant and elementalist - then I can't take that discussion too seriously :-1:

[aelska.4609]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> I see only nerf here .... It's not a "nerfing patch" but a "balancing patch" Almost all your "nerfs" will make the build go directly to the forgotten zone. (traduction : not playable anymore)

>

> And making "the work" only on stronger classes actually is kinda lazy ! If you wanted more attention and more seriousness about your post you should have been gone to the end of it and not letting the post semi-finished.

>

> And yeah nerfing the core specs is "stupid" when it's only usefull/OP in the elite spec! then you should look at the elite (not the core) what could be improved (nerfed/buffed)

>

> And since you don't give ways to improve revenant and elementalist - then I can't take that discussion too seriously :-1:

 

Yup, all the changes proposed here are nerfs, because I do not think the game can reach a balance state by buffing before nerfing, especially in a context where people are complaining about "powercreep". If build A is not taken over build B because B is too powerful, build B has to be toned down to reach the same efficiency as build A, otherwise it will be a constant bid about "which skill has the longest tooltip".

 

Renegade has a flawed mechanic and will have to undergo severe changes, while my knowledge about weaver and soulbeast is too low to be able to propose any change :)

 

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

>

> > **Holosmith**

> > _This class has huge burst potential but the animations are obvious. However, the damage output from dodging (traits) is too high and has no counter._

> > - Self-Regulating Defenses will no longer grant invulnerability, but will reduce all incoming damage (condi or power) by 50% for 3s

>

>

> Yes, let's try to put Holosmith in line, while gutting the only semi-useful trait in that part of the alchemy line and say: destroy scrapper and core Engie even more.

>

> Do people even consider other specs, or do they simply not care? I can understand it's annoying, but kitten scrapper and core likes those things so they can have a remote chance of a fight you know.

>

>

A buff to the core and scrapper should follow, but atm these traits are really the problem with holo. You will notice that the "self-regulating defenses" is a change more than a nerf: instead of having a passive invulnerability trigger (that still allows you to rekt you by condis), now it is a passive damage reduction that will act on both the incoming damage and condi and will still allow you to use your skills. I don't see much of a nerf in there: it will, indeed, make you vulnerable from an incoming burst; but you will no longer see your heal interrupted when you reach the threshold and you will still be able to use your skills (damage/defense). A more active gameplay.

@"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"aelska.4609" said:

> > **Scourge**:

> > - Removed the access to weakness (skills/corrupt table)

>

> So basically you want to midly inconvience Scourge, while absolutely destroying Core necro and Reaper's defensive capabilities. All three of your suggested Scourge changes would still leave Scourge meta. (it'd just be more support dependent.) Yet your first change manages to gut core necro. Necros have been applying weakness since 2012, deal with it.

>

> I'm sick and tired of all the "Scourge nerf suggestions" that always manage to destroy core necro, while barely slapping Scourge on the wrist. If you want to nerf Scourge, [here is a better way to do it.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19073/how-to-balance-scourge)

>

It will still be time to adjust core and reaper afterwards. But yeah, I would prefer a change to weakness itself that would not transform the ennemy into a running potato.

 

[Endorphin.9147]

This game has had a great combat system, it was intuitive and it made players think about the game. There is a lot of interesting interactions and mechanics in the game I enjoyed over time. I hope the balance team is listening to at least the veterans of the game, theres probably a lot of good ideas out there. I have heard a few just from some PvP friends. There are some things that need to be tuned. (they dont really need to be nerfed completely to the ground, just maybe reworked. EX: turn a condition trait into another condition source so the stacking isnt as overwhelming. Or turn a corrupt trait into just a condition application so it)

 

Right now it seems like a couple classes became focused on evade based builds while still landing damage during invuln/evade. Or others classes are rewarded for not as intuitive playing where they just have to land the same 2 skills over and over til the enemy dies. Maybe these mechanics were the intended direction for these classes. Who knows? I just know a lot of the good players are as good as they are is because they got good during an old meta where you had to think about your skill management and trying to keep track of your enemies's skill management. I know you still have to do that in the current state of the game but it feels like it isn't as important as it used to be.

 

Also on a side note, Engi mines trait.. that going off during a dodge roll while being invulnerable from elixir is kind of a dumb. Why are we rewarding players to overlap an evade with an invuln?

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Endorphin.9147" said:

> This game has had a great combat system, it was intuitive and it made players think about the game. There is a lot of interesting interactions and mechanics in the game I enjoyed over time. I hope the balance team is listening to at least the veterans of the game, theres probably a lot of good ideas out there. I have heard a few just from some PvP friends. There are some things that need to be tuned. (they dont really need to be nerfed completely to the ground, just maybe reworked. EX: turn a condition trait into another condition source so the stacking isnt as overwhelming. Or turn a corrupt trait into just a condition application so it)

>

> Right now it seems like a couple classes became focused on evade based builds while still landing damage during invuln/evade. Or others classes are rewarded for not as intuitive playing where they just have to land the same 2 skills over and over til the enemy dies. Maybe these mechanics were the intended direction for these classes. Who knows? I just know a lot of the good players are as good as they are is because they got good during an old meta where you had to think about your skill management and trying to keep track of your enemies's skill management. I know you still have to do that in the current state of the game but it feels like it isn't as important as it used to be.

>

> Also on a side note, Engi mines trait.. that going off during a dodge roll while being invulnerable from elixir is kind of a dumb. Why are we rewarding players to overlap an evade with an invuln?

 

out of ALL the things that possible going horrible in Spvp with other classes such as Necros, Mesmers and Druid your one side note is a complain about a "engi mine trait" which is use to bait idiots that likes to chase hard? I agreed with 75% of your post however the mine trait line is the last thing we should be worried about and focus on complaining when we have mirages who has almost stupid amount of up time with vigor/ bursting almost any class down easily depending on your spec.... now that's pretty dumb.

[Henrik.7560]

Engi changes sound good, I mean the double invul nonsense is just so irritating to fight, they fight and do not need to disengage because their auto invul will save them, then they kite away, invul again or stealth if they have to and come back full health. The mine trail change sounds decent, constant mine spam that you have to dodge or tank while they're invul or retreating sucks.

The mesmer nerfs look a bit too far, it's more one or the other, I feel nerfing Jaunt and that trait would destroy the spec, especially giving nothing in return. Make it cleanse two condi if you are taking their stunbreak away, and increase Jaunt range if you're taking its confusion away.

Bunker firebrand clearly needs some fixing, it's way too powerful and capable of carrying mid fights for the skill cap. The cleanse, healing and stability output is too much.

Scourge shouldn't be hit too hard because it's weak without a team and can be focused down easily, but that F5 does hrut alot. Removing its effect from the player would be too rough I feel though.

Deadeye? dead class, idk.

Spellbreaker, full counter has been nerfed several times already, and the two changes the OP listed can devastate the spec in PvP, once again only one of them is neccessary.

Weaver, buff sword damage, buff dagger damage, allow the vitality trait to affect not just sword but all other weapons too, however the focus should be on tempest since that is even more dead than weaver.

Renegade? no idea, seems good in pve but not for conquest.

Soulbeast, can do some insane damage but doesn't bring much to the team. Has lovely boonsharing options for self sustaining on a point but in a midfight a scourgew ill run over you. Reduce its sustain and give it access to resistance maybe, not sure.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Henrik.7560" said:

> Engi changes sound good, I mean the double invul nonsense is just so irritating to fight, they fight and do not need to disengage because their auto invul will save them, then they kite away, invul again or stealth if they have to and come back full health. The mine trail change sounds decent, constant mine spam that you have to dodge or tank while they're invul or retreating sucks.

> The mesmer nerfs look a bit too far, it's more one or the other, I feel nerfing Jaunt and that trait would destroy the spec, especially giving nothing in return. Make it cleanse two condi if you are taking their stunbreak away, and increase Jaunt range if you're taking its confusion away.

> Bunker firebrand clearly needs some fixing, it's way too powerful and capable of carrying mid fights for the skill cap. The cleanse, healing and stability output is too much.

> Scourge shouldn't be hit too hard because it's weak without a team and can be focused down easily, but that F5 does hrut alot. Removing its effect from the player would be too rough I feel though.

> Deadeye? dead class, idk.

> Spellbreaker, full counter has been nerfed several times already, and the two changes the OP listed can devastate the spec in PvP, once again only one of them is neccessary.

> Weaver, buff sword damage, buff dagger damage, allow the vitality trait to affect not just sword but all other weapons too, however the focus should be on tempest since that is even more dead than weaver.

> Renegade? no idea, seems good in pve but not for conquest.

> Soulbeast, can do some insane damage but doesn't bring much to the team. Has lovely boonsharing options for self sustaining on a point but in a midfight a scourgew ill run over you. Reduce its sustain and give it access to resistance maybe, not sure.

 

HOW is that breaking Jaunt?

It does not need to confusion.

It's literally just a blink, and people use it as a blink.

 

And the Engie shrink literally makes them helpless compared to warrior and ranger who can still burst you. Literally, people are only whining about shrink and mine is because Holosmith had gotten some popularity.

 

Where were you when scrapper was using this trait or Core Engie with pistol/shield was using this trait? You people are only complaining with it ONLY Holosmith because Holosmith had somehow gotten the attention of the public.

[Endorphin.9147]

@"zoopop.5630" oh that was more of an example, I know there is a lot wrong with the game. a lot of the builds play themselves. I play mirage sometimes, it is broken as fuck. I just have to dodge, land an ambush, then jaunt+shatter to kill someone. A Necro walks by you and has your whole boon bar corrupted. they just need to redesign a trait or 2 to be condi application instead of corrupts.

 

The ending statement that I said more of ending on a funny note than anything. Most the builds in this game play themselves. even the not as meta ones like S/D thief. It's not really intuitive and it has traits to make up for huge mistakes. (Miss steal? thats okay, theres a trait that will refresh your cooldown of steal so you can instantly cast it again.)

 

At the end of the day all these old good players got good cause the game required more thought. I was not around for long before HoT, but after that expansion released a lot became dumbed down, even rotations are a lost art.