Deadeye, Damage and Boonwalls

[kash.9213]

> @Sypher.8975 said:

> As I said above, all nice on paper.

 

Iron Sites and Resilience of Shadows is a nice combo. Normally I can CnD my way through most aoe bursts and I haven't felt the need to have more than DE's Mark and Shadow Meld to get through being pulled or locked down, usually with the second Shadow Meld to mask direction once I have distance. Good thieves are counters, not Daredevils specifically, I don't get that angle. Core Steal at the moment makes core and DD counter to anyone ahead of DE and having better trait combos like DA,Trick,? is good padding in general.

[Sypher.8975]

Resilience of shadows was never that great. Shadow Arts was always a subpar traitline. What's 25% dmg reduction (not even sure if it works against condi dmg) when other classes have access to full immunity? Add another 10% to Iron Sites and we might have a decent build. 15% is just bullcrap. I disagree with daredevils not being a specific counter. Deadeye casts almost every skill, while daredevil has access to a floads of interrupts combined with impacting disruptor. That alone makes deadeye the worst possible choice against a daredevil.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Sypher.8975 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > @Sypher.8975 said:

> > > Theory is theory and doesn't apply at all in a real life/gameplay environment. Deadeye suffers from something big and that's being an immobile buffer that, when exposed by enemies, is dead in seconds (or well, in under a secdond tbh). Stealth won't help you at all, and just running away takes away your role as a "squad buffer". You try to explain to the people not to compare daredevil to deadeye - which is fine. Yet daredevil is probably deadeye's biggest counter. So there's absolutely no need to play deadeye over daredevil. If you wanna argue with "oh but deadeye buffs your squad" - so what? Heralds, Druids, Tempests or Eles in general, Engis and so on also buff your squad. Not to mention that at the moment, as far as pvp goes, buffs are a killer. Scourges and Spellbreakers are just gonna laugh at your 25 might stacks you try to apply.

> > >

> > > EDIT: I just saw that this post is over 2 weeks old. I guess your point on the deadeye matter changed by now.

> >

> > To being stealthed will not save you.I think you should try it. Trait Iron sights. Get your protection running via steal or perfectionist. Take Shadows rejuv OR CIS (I prefer CIS)

> >

> > you have a source of 33 percent reduction one of 15 percent one of 25 percent nd one that prevents any attack from doing a crit. You can eat a whole lot of damage. I have had Daredevils swing away where they saw me stealthed, Knelt and pulled off a DJ on them as i ate the damage. The Daredevil damage plummets when it can not crit and when it faces all that damage reduction and daredevil has no reveal.

>

> As I said above, all nice on paper. That's why stuff like [this](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft "http://") exist. You won't be able to keep up your protection against any daredevil - except if you dodge his steal. Even if you do that, daredevil (or rather d/p weaponset) has access to basically perma blind. Even if you can avoid all the blinds and whatever, daredevil has access to stealth (again d/p weaponset). Even then, daredevil can potentially dodge 6 times in a row (even more with the right food+sigils) and make you waste initiative. And if all that isn't enough: since all your abilities have a casttime - well, have fun being interrupted throughout the whole fight and eating 3-4k impacting disruptor procs.

>

> I ate a lot of burst by deadeye's in the last couple days (mostly WvW), just to see how much they can burst. I usually ended up to like 2-3k hp, healed up to around 8k, stole on them and oneshotted them in a matter of 2 seconds. Let me tell you that deadeye just doesn't work in a pvp environment at all.

>

> So now tell me, where does deadeye shine? By having 1500 range? Laughable.

 

You can say that about pretty much anything when you put them in a situation where they get hardcountered by someone who knows what they are doing. However, a daredevil can't permablind, permaevade, stealth with BP+HS and constantly interrupt the DE all in the same fight, even if the daredevil blew their utilities. The situation you posted is unrealistic.

 

Where the Deadeye shines over the Daredevil is in self buffing, steal usage and stealth spam, aside from range using rifle. You also mentioned Bountiful Theft, which is a core trait. Mark can be reset in two ways (three if you are running sword), either through the death of the marked target or by Mercy. This means that the deadeye will always have +1 Mark uses in combat and therefore +1 steal trait uses. So the Daredevil may steal the boons off the DE but it isn't like the DE could get them back eventually.

 

And as a counter to your experience, I have gone to wvw and have put plenty of tanky guards on their ass. I have kited d/p daredevils into blowing their initiative and cooldowns before bursting them down at times when they notice me and straight blew them up when they haven't. And I am more use to a zerg with Fire For Effect and my burst damage than as a d/p thief. Last time I was in a zerg, I had people hugging me for might stacks. You can't do that with a Daredevil.

[kash.9213]

I would only add more to iron sites in spvp, that would get stupid in wvw or raids. DD counters DE directly if DE is using Rifles, but rifle is struggling to find any players to champion it so far and that's pretty telling of it's design. I just thought I'd add that those two traits go together well if you're bunkering a bit, but I can't bunker for long without wanting to change back to core Steal, aside from it being instant, it's combos so well with certain weapon skills that it just feels natural.

[Tinnel.4369]

If you're capable of doing the theory then you surely understand that it's only valuable if the practice or experiment validates it. We don't fight on paper in a vacuum, unfortunately. Insisting that because the theory is sound the practice will follow suit just makes it, well, propaganda. What is useful here is the conversation that's emerging which is amounting to the experimental practice by some.

 

What I'm finding the most challenging is being able to be in position and range to get something even remotely resembling a good shot down range, let alone enough shots to get a kill. It may very well be a learn to play issue, but we only get better experimental evidence through evaluation.

 

My frustration with landing damage can be summed up in three areas, if someone has feedback on overcoming them it'd be rad.

 

1. By the time I'm set they're out of range. As a result I'm burning initiative, mobility, and stealth skills to get in range again.

2. By the time I'm set they're on me. This is particularly challenging if they've already been out of range and now I'm starved for mobility, stealth, and initiative. Oh, and I'm trapped cause I'm kneeling and it's a klunky mechanic.

3. I'm set, I've got malice, I've got initiative, slow deep breath, natural respiratory pause, clear front sight tip, slow steady trigger squeeze and........evade/blocked/barrier. Now I'm back to 1. or 2. because I've given myself away and have to re-position or get defensive.

 

These issues seem even more pronounced when trying to pick on a zerg. They're either mobile, tons of projectile hate, or they're gonna turn around and run you over. I feel like if any movement broke kneel and gave a short swiftness boon we'd have a little better jump on re-positioning, chasing, or getting evasive without blowing other valuable resources.

 

When I can land some good shots I'm not all that disappointed with the damage. CS, DA, DE can put the smack down. However, the evidence I'm seeing is that we're farm league compared to LB Soulbeast with superior (unblockable) damage, superior survivability, and superior mobility while maintaining the same range.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.

Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

 

>The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

 

The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.

Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.

> Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

>

> >The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

>

> The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.

> Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

 

Just fyi, this was made in September right before launch in response to players in-game who predicted that the Deadeye was not going to work in PvP, thus calling it a pve spec. They were dead wrong, as complaining about the spec started two days after launch in regards to pvp. Afterwards, it was mixed reviews varying from trash to "scary".

 

And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/sniper1.htm

>When there is no specific objective, a sniper will look for targets of opportunity. By tracking enemy movements, snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers to present the opportunity for a perfect shot. An officer taking a break to smoke a cigarette, a pilot flight-checking his helicopter, an armed guard on patrol -- these are all targets of opportunity.

 

Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

[Tinnel.4369]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

 

> And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

> http://science.howstuffworks.com/sniper1.htm

> >When there is no specific objective, a sniper will look for targets of opportunity. By tracking enemy movements, snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers to present the opportunity for a perfect shot. An officer taking a break to smoke a cigarette, a pilot flight-checking his helicopter, an armed guard on patrol -- these are all targets of opportunity.

>

 

"incredibly long distances" - Or in GW2 speak, the same distance as a Longbow.

 

"The main battlefield role of the sniper is reconnaissance. Because snipers are masters of stealth, they are perfectly suited to sneak behind enemy lines to provide command with information about the enemy's size, strength and location." - Thief didn't need a "sniper" spec to do this.

 

"With deadly shots that kill without warning, military snipers break both the enemy's will and ability to fight." - Except a single shot can't kill most classes and just like in real life the shot gives you away, but in real life they don't have longbows that can track and hit you with 100% accuracy at your incredibly long range even though they can't see you.

 

"snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers to present the opportunity for a perfect shot." - I can do this with a well placed ballista. Deadeye has very limited resources with which to do this successfully. To come even remotely close you'd need stellar positioning and cover which are hardly readily available, you're not gonna one shot them, they're gonna run away or pop an invuln/block. You can maximize stealth, but at the cost of damage, lowering the chances you're gonna pull off a kill before they're blocking or gone.

 

I'm gonna go with kinda failed as a sniper concept.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.

> > Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

> >

> > >The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

> >

> > The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.

> > Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

>

> Just fyi, this was made in September

 

Ah crap, someone dug it out, didn't pay attention to the date it was posted.

 

 

>And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

 

Yeah, they do... but the whole thing that makes it possible is being unnoticed, as in their target can't be aware of their presence. Sooo not really wrong.

 

And jesus, linking to the sniper definition as an argument aside... Even by that standard you contradict yourself:

You LITEREALLY just quoted this:

>snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers

 

And then commented with this:

 

>Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

 

Once you apply malice, you're no longer able to be unnoticed by your desired target.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > > First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.

> > > Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

> > >

> > > >The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

> > >

> > > The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.

> > > Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

> >

> > Just fyi, this was made in September

>

> Ah crap, someone dug it out, didn't pay attention to the date it was posted.

>

>

> >And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

>

> Yeah, they do... but the whole thing that makes it possible is being unnoticed, as in their target can't be aware of their presence. Sooo not really wrong.

>

> And jesus, linking to the sniper definition as an argument aside... Even by that standard you contradict yourself:

> You LITEREALLY just quoted this:

> >snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers

>

> And then commented with this:

>

> >Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

>

> Once you apply malice, you're no longer able to be unnoticed by your desired target.

 

You must have not been playing Deadeye in PvP. Most don't realize they are being targeted. And those that do usually have trouble finding the a deadeye that's 1/4th competent in maneuvering.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > > First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.

> > > Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

> > >

> > > >The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

> > >

> > > The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.

> > > Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

> >

> > Just fyi, this was made in September

>

> Ah crap, someone dug it out, didn't pay attention to the date it was posted.

>

>

> >And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

>

> Yeah, they do... but the whole thing that makes it possible is being unnoticed, as in their target can't be aware of their presence. Sooo not really wrong.

>

> And jesus, linking to the sniper definition as an argument aside... Even by that standard you contradict yourself:

> You LITEREALLY just quoted this:

> >snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers

>

> And then commented with this:

>

> >Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

>

> Once you apply malice, you're no longer able to be unnoticed by your desired target.

 

How am I contradicting myself? The sniper waits. The Deadeye waits.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Sypher.8975 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

> >

> > Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

> >

> >

>

> All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

 

The spec does not force you to use rifle. I can get that protection for 20 seconds and put 20 srtacks of VULN on the engineer whether I am using rifle, D/P ,D/D ,or any other weapon outide staff. Just because you play daredevil does not mean the players you face can not longer gap close. Indeed many of those things that close gaps require a target meaning the skill can not be used when you stealth. Daredevil does not allow more damage here, it allows more dodges.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Sypher.8975 said:

> Resilience of shadows was never that great. Shadow Arts was always a subpar traitline. What's 25% dmg reduction (not even sure if it works against condi dmg) when other classes have access to full immunity? Add another 10% to Iron Sites and we might have a decent build. 15% is just bullcrap. I disagree with daredevils not being a specific counter. Deadeye casts almost every skill, while daredevil has access to a floads of interrupts combined with impacting disruptor. That alone makes deadeye the worst possible choice against a daredevil.

 

You do not look at a skill on its own. Resilience of shadows is in the minor GM slot the same as exposed weakness. On its own exposed weakness with 10 percent more damage is not all that great. It becomes much more then that when it used in conjunction with other damage modifiers.

 

Shadows reslience used with Iron sights can cut damage incoming by about 40 percent while stealthed. It better then protection. In WvW just as people take foods that add damage (sigil of force) you can use the 10 percent mitigated incoming damage food. Thats close to half damage mitigated as it comes in (I understand it mulpicative this just generalizing)

 

Now you Take CIS and while stealthed you can niot be critted. No D/P thief is going to Steal any of those things from you and while he can steal protection when you do get it THAT will be his only source for the next 25 seconds and you can just steal it back. So now you got 15% less damage, 10 percent less damage, 25 less percent damage ,33 percent less percent damage. All of the D/P daredevils traits that boost damage are neutralized when you stealth.

 

Now take CIS. He can not crit you. When you are stealthed the Daredevil will lose better then half his damage output and be unable to land any crits. You can pull this off against a thief FAR more frequently then those other classes can get full immunity. its not once every 60 seconds like an endure pain and when you are getting this mitigation you are stealthed.

[Saraneth.6021]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> > @Sypher.8975 said:

> > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

> > >

> > > Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

>

> The spec does not force you to use rifle.

 

Sick of hearing this shit. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole fucking idea of the deadeye was rifle!

[babazhook.6805]

> @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > @Sypher.8975 said:

> > > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

> > > >

> > > > Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

> >

> > The spec does not force you to use rifle.

>

> Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

 

If you want to argue as to why Daredevil superior then stick to arguing about staff and only staff.

 

The reason you are sick of hearing about the ability to use other weapons in teh SPEC called DE is you are unable to counter those arguments .

[Barzah.8019]

@Zacchary.6183: Saw many thief out there that finally able to utilize deadeye potential, yet this situation only occur on any weapon but rifle. Yes in perfect situation, rifle could unleash huge damage by using DJ but there are many problem out there like range inconsistency (get 1200 range while kneeling), obstruction bug, shooting blank when the enemy is under 400 range (mostly occur on PvP), lower malice gain rate compared to other power spec weapon, less than 10 second shooting window time when inside the hot zone (5 second at full passive), and a necessity to take sniper cover and hidden malice trait to make your rifle worth using.

 

If this "hindrance" can be addressed by @net, rifle is definitely going to shine. Otherwise, this weapon only fit type of player that seek extreme challenge in order to perform regularly when compared to other meta spec out there.

[Saraneth.6021]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > @Sypher.8975 said:

> > > > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > > Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

> > > > >

> > > > > Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

> > >

> > > The spec does not force you to use rifle.

> >

> > Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

>

> If you want to argue as to why Daredevil superior then stick to arguing about staff and only staff.

>

> The reason you are sick of hearing about the ability to use other weapons in teh SPEC called DE is you are unable to counter those arguments .

 

What? Not talking about DD staff, talking about DE rifle. Seriously, are you stoned?

[babazhook.6805]

> @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > > @Sypher.8975 said:

> > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > > > Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

> > > >

> > > > The spec does not force you to use rifle.

> > >

> > > Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

> >

> > If you want to argue as to why Daredevil superior then stick to arguing about staff and only staff.

> >

> > The reason you are sick of hearing about the ability to use other weapons in teh SPEC called DE is you are unable to counter those arguments .

>

> What? Not talking about DD staff, talking about DE rifle. Seriously, are you stoned?

 

The thread is labled DE , Damage and Boonwalls. It is not labeled rifle. Boons come from th Spec DE and not from Rifle. The OP started the thred by pointing out how boons can be spread to allies. This does not need a rifle. Apparently some are unaware of that.

[knyy.6427]

PvE: with perma revealed being a thing on some raidbosses d/d is not viable on those and with sword dmg being low, the only hope is/was rifle dmg being meta. That's what you "normally" wanna play if you choose DE (yes, that's my assumption). As I just said, other weapon specs are not really viable.

 

You could say "hey d/d is viable on all bosses where there is no perma reveal. But that's like Anet introduces some destroyer bosses which are immune to burning. Then you will see the outcry of fb etc. That this can't be in the game.

But hey, they could just spec into DH or whatever as well. This won't be happening, but just as an example.

 

Perma reveal has to go away.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Ok I read the back & forth and it all started with being a sniper. The idea that Malice will compromise your presence is valid, however due to it's 1500 range, you are not compromising your position. You can apply Malice and Kneel to stealth and no one can see where you are until it's too late. Just like any sniper, even if their presence is known, the target can still not able to locate them. As long as that is the case, you can kneel in the same place and wait for Malice to build up. Even if your position is compromise, Shadow Meld can ensure your escape. So I don't think that there's a contradiction anywhere as one claims and it sounds like trolling to me.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Ok I read the back & forth and it all started with being a sniper. The idea that Malice will compromise your presence is valid, however due to it's 1500 range, you are not compromising your position. You can apply Malice and Kneel to stealth and no one can see where you are until it's too late. Just like any sniper, even if their presence is known, the target can still not able to locate them. As long as that is the case, you can kneel in the same place and wait for Malice to build up. Even if your position is compromise, Shadow Meld can ensure your escape. So I don't think that there's a contradiction anywhere as one claims and it sounds like trolling to me.

 

\o/ Thank you!

It was that simple.

[Sobx.1758]

It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before (in case you forgot about that post already)- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

 

Overally DE is crap in pve and doesn't work in pvp like it should because of the limitations that pretty much "make that class" in the world of mobility based game like this.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

> You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before (in case you forgot about that post already)- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

> And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

 

The very existence of DE already made everyone vigilant even though DE aren't around. Even if someone choose to run, it wouldn't matter much, but if they choose to fight, the DE has the element of surprise. Silent Scope puts the DE in stealth when kneeling and you can extend that stealth with Shadow Meld and remain hidden while the Malice build up. If the DE screwed up their surprise, they can just reset the fight and try again. DE has a lot of escape and it seems that you're not familiar with it because you have not played DE at all, you're basing your argument on what you read on paper. Well, I can tell you this, there's a lot of things on paper that don't work or works differently in game. Besides, you don't need full Malice to deal 20k in 2 seconds if you build your DE the right way. I was on the receiving end of Zacchary.6183's burst when we're testing DE out and I'm telling you even with my Reaper's 22k HP and 2300 armor, I received 20k damage in 2 seconds -- just imagine someone wearing berserkers.

 

The point is, Zacchary.6183 is talking from experience while you're just arguing for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

It's a simple thing to do to *explain your point* which was something I have been trying to get you to do for the past few days. You did not explain it well and it took someone jumping into the conversation to clarify what you said in order for that to happen.

> You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

Yet, like SirVincent said, even if your presence is known your position isn't compromised and you can still build up malice without having to get into major conflict. At that point, if someone wants to fight or run away, they best hurry up because the DE can put out significant numbers in a short amount of time.

> And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

And you have yet to explain how that is contradictory.

 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

> > You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before (in case you forgot about that post already)- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

> > And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

>

> The very existence of DE already made everyone vigilant even though DE aren't around. Even if someone choose to run, it wouldn't matter much, but if they choose to fight, the DE has the element of surprise. Silent Scope puts the DE in stealth when kneeling and you can extend that stealth with Shadow Meld and remain hidden while the Malice build up. If the DE screwed up their surprise, they can just reset the fight and try again. DE has a lot of escape and it seems that you're not familiar with it because you have not played DE at all, you're basing your argument on what you read on paper. Well, I can tell you this, there's a lot of things on paper that don't work or works differently in game. Besides, you don't need full Malice to deal 20k in 2 seconds if you build your DE the right way. I was on the receiving end of Zacchary.6183's burst when we're testing DE out and I'm telling you even with my Reaper's 22k HP and 2300 armor, I received 20k damage in 2 seconds -- just imagine someone wearing berserkers.

>

> The point is, Zacchary.6183 is talking from experience while you're just arguing for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.

 

"existence of DE already made everyone vigilant"? What? That's seriously new to me, frmo my experience nobody cares. When I see DE while I play DD, I don't really care because I can pop him off and if I don't want to fight for one reason or another, he can't catch me anyways. Who (and why) is so "vigilant" solely because of DE existance? I don't see where that came from at all. And "DE aren't around" for a reason.

DE has to use malice to start a fight, which pretty much -AGAIN- negates any and all "element of surprise" arguments. The whole point is that there is no element of surprise and you pretty much won't start a fight without letting your target know that you intend to fight him.

Also I know DE and I've played it enough, so yo can stop trying to patronizingly "explain to me what his traits do".

 

It's not "on paper", at the current state DE doesn't work like it should and it's a fact.

 

> I was on the receiving end of Zacchary.6183's

 

And theeeeere it is, I suspected you're connected to that guy in one way or another and that's why you "mysteriously appeared" in this thread all of a sudden.

Well, not a surprise.

 

____________________________________________________

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

> It's a simple thing to do to *explain your point* which was something I have been trying to get you to do for the past few days. You did not explain it well and it took someone jumping into the conversation to clarify what you said in order for that to happen.

 

The thing is, I already did and you just failed to understand it. Why? I already told you, so I'll just stop repeating myself.

Now you say "it was so easy to explain my point", meanwhile all I did was water down my first 2 posts in this thread. Suddenly you claim that's enough? Well... ok?

 

> > You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

> Yet, like SirVincent said, even if your presence is known your position isn't compromised and you can still build up malice without having to get into major conflict. At that point, if someone wants to fight or run away, they best hurry up because the DE can put out significant numbers in a short amount of time.

 

Either way it's not a "surprise engage" anymore when your presence in the area is obvious. You can't "catch someone off guard" when you scream at him that you'll start a fight soon.

 

> > And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

> And you have yet to explain how that is contradictory.

 

Yup, I did.