What do you think makes Scourge strong?

[KrHome.1920]

To some extent it's a L2P issue. I don't know why but a lot of players can't deal with condition damage. They don't get the mechanics for some reason.

 

Allies are dying like flies around me when we face a Scourge and I am still fighting him when they are back from respawn just to watch them dying instantly again. That's super frustrating.

 

Yesterday a few randoms of my server lost a 5v2 vs. a Scourge+Hammer/Staff Revenant. The FB dropped first. It was ridiculous. When I roam with a competent fellow we destroy Scourge+FB teams no matter what composition we run. That does not mean that Scourge+FB is a weak composition. It just shows that there is a lot of room for personal skill improvement for most players.

 

I am aware of Scourge+FB in Conquest. If this comp can camp the node, you have a problem - a problem a LB-Ranger won't solve. But in every other scenario Scourge is totally dealable - even weak to say the least.

[Orangensaft.7139]

Good Boon Corruption

Which is also instant

and AOE

[vicious.5683]

People who can't adapt.

[ReaverKane.7598]

The problem with Scourge is that it controls points easily without much counter. Scourge himself minus the shades would be an good class, but the shades makes it too strong in PvP modes due to zone controls.

Also, the game has gotten to a point where people just ooze boons. The focus on corruption from scourge (but also core necro) criple people a lot.

[Malafaia.8903]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> The problem with Scourge is that it controls points easily without much counter. Scourge himself minus the shades would be an good class, but the shades makes it too strong in PvP modes due to zone controls.

> Also, the game has gotten to a point where people just ooze boons. The focus on corruption from scourge (but also core necro) criple people a lot.

 

"Scourge himself minus the shades would be an good class"

Lol, so you take the mechanic that defines the class, drop a torch in the hands of a necro without shroud and everything is ok?

AWESOME!

[DeadlySynz.3471]

What makes the Scourge strong is players unwillingness to play classes capable of taking them out. As long as players avoid classes like Ranger or thief like the plague, the Scourge will continue to reign supreme.

 

The second however players start playing Ranger's and thieves, Scourges will likely become non-existent.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > The problem with Scourge is that it controls points easily without much counter. Scourge himself minus the shades would be an good class, but the shades makes it too strong in PvP modes due to zone controls.

> > Also, the game has gotten to a point where people just ooze boons. The focus on corruption from scourge (but also core necro) criple people a lot.

>

> "Scourge himself minus the shades would be an good class"

> Lol, so you take the mechanic that defines the class, drop a torch in the hands of a necro without shroud and everything is ok?

> AWESOME!

Did i say that?

I'm actually a scourge player. What i'm saying is that scourge in itself isn't imbalanced. The problem is lack of ways to counter shades. The rest mostly comes out of people just having too many boons on them. And a lot of the corruption can be achieved to a certain extent with core necro and reaper, since scourge itself only corrupts into torment and cripple.

 

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> What makes the Scourge strong is players unwillingness to play classes capable of taking them out. As long as players avoid classes like Ranger or thief like the plague, the Scourge will continue to reign supreme.

>

> The second however players start playing Ranger's and thieves, Scourges will likely become non-existent.

In a way the fact that firebrand is also very dominant in PvP is also due to scourge, and how Firebrand at least helps sustain vs scourges. There's couter-play potential, but yeah, it's not like there aren't any counters, unlike the unkillable chronos and tempests in the early days of HoT.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"vicious.5683" said:

> People who can't adapt.

 

Exactly this.

 

Its like:

I heard scourge is op.

I lost to scourge. So it must be op.

 

And not:

I lost to scourge. Ok, maybe i have to chance my playstyle against scourges.

 

Facetanking all dmg doesnt work at this point of the game. It doesnt work against any of the classes

[TamX.1870]

> @"arenta.2953" said:

> the thing that makes scourge so strong, is not scourge itself. but condition mechanics conditions ignore all armor. and theres very few traits that directly reduce dmg from condition dmg(and i beleive only 3 classes have them).

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> Scourges are strong because they prey on boon spam builds by design, and those are _everywhere_.

 

Although I am not that experienced player, I would agree with these two reasons. Conditions are good to cripple opponents and deal damage, in such way that during my short career it has even been preferred way to DPS. Seemingly also the game has shifted to boon stacking, in such extent that trying to strip down the boons you apply is shooting to one's own leg. When you sum these up, and add a class who can mass-convert boons to conditions, you get very strong class: not because of the class and its mechanics itself (boon corruption itself sounds a very interesting mechanism), but because fighting revolves so much around boon & condition stacking.

 

[RabbitUp.8294]

I don't play pvp a lot, but I do think boon corrupts in wvw need to be looked at, especially when it comes to stability. When a boon is designed to counter and be countered by CC, having something like boon corrupt remove all stacks instantly AND apply a hard CC on top of that is problematic.

 

Boon removal/corruption should remove only 1 stack of stability. That makes it as valuable as a hard CC at countering stability, and even then, they are a lot more accessible and spammable than CC.

[Nimon.7840]

Well for wvw. Anet could just put an icd on the f2 corrupt like... 7seconds. That wouldnt hurt any pve nec and would give good necro players a chance to shine.

But also we need to get that obstructed thingi fixed rlly badly. On some points of the map i cant even portal with flat ground. Cause its obstructed!?!

And even worse with the shades. Rlly. Take that back and let us bomb walls.

I mean, every other class can do that as well but necro isnt allowed to?

 

If they cant come up with an idea the next balance patch i guess i might throw gw2 to the bin.

 

Its really damn annoying. If you design a class, make it worth playing, else you can delete the class.

 

Maybe we should all stop playing necro, then anet might do something about this mess

[Crinn.7864]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The second however players start playing Ranger's and thieves, Scourges will likely become non-existent.

 

Because expecting everyone who isn't a Scourge to reroll to 1 one of 2 classes is obviously reasonable. But hey we didn't need those other 6 classes anyways.

 

Also neither rangers or thieves are capable of shutting down a Scourge in a teamfight.

[vicious.5683]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > The second however players start playing Ranger's and thieves, Scourges will likely become non-existent.

>

> Because expecting everyone who isn't a Scourge to reroll to 1 one of 2 classes is obviously reasonable. But hey we didn't need those other 6 classes anyways.

>

> Also neither rangers or thieves are capable of shutting down a Scourge in a teamfight.

 

Then is not scourge's fault.

If you nerf the cannon part of a glass cannon profession, you ruin that profession.

Why would you defend a scourge if they can't kill anything?

Scourges can't protect allies likes guardians do either, so if you wanna delete a complete class from game, just say it.

 

[Anchoku.8142]

One thing I find interesting about condi Scourge is that it punishes people for getting into melee combat against it. Reaper was the same before the chill duration nerf.

[silent killer.5732]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Ziooo.8932" said:

> > > @"dceptaconroy.7928" said:

> > > People unable to change their playstyle when expecting all necro forms to be ez kill, then melting on the spot. Thats what makes them especially deadly.

> >

> > Someone give this guy a medal, this is by far the best answer we will ever get in this thread.

> > If only people used at least half a brain and treated scourge as they should (and played accordingly) we wouldn't get this stupid necro hate every xpac.

>

> So your logic is that despite Scourge being the most prolific class in pvp for over 4 months now, people somehow haven't "adjusted" to Scourge? Do you not realize how preposterous that conclusion is?

 

People only hating on necros because they always saw them as easy kills

Its not like they didn't adjusted to scourge

They want the free kill back.

#Fax

[Sarrs.4831]

Scourge seems strong to me because they have low investment, high effect skills that can produce big condi spreads. A properly-done F2 can cause half a dozen conditions while also providing the Scourge with defensive benefit. You could look at it as a Signet of Spite just for picking Scourge.

 

They also can produce a lot of outgoing power without much time investment or setup. We saw this with Condi Reaper in WvW while WvW still had 3bleed/5sec; Reaper Runes would let you push up to 20 bleeds with very little effort. A charged-up Scourge can mash the f-row and cause a ton of strike effects.

 

I don't think they're necessarily unreasonably strong (though they're almost certainly going to get nerfed). Scourge strengths just happen to do well in an environment with lots of boons, and Necromancer's traditional predators have been melee classes which is a less effective strategy against Scourge.

[Avigrus.2871]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Well for wvw. Anet could just put an icd on the f2 corrupt like... 7seconds. That wouldnt hurt any pve nec and would give good necro players a chance to shine.

> But also we need to get that obstructed thingi fixed rlly badly. On some points of the map i cant even portal with flat ground. Cause its obstructed!?!

> And even worse with the shades. Rlly. Take that back and let us bomb walls.

> I mean, every other class can do that as well but necro isnt allowed to?

 

Regarding the "Obstructed" bug - that was a bug, but it has now become a feature of the Scourge.

 

A-net posted about it on Reddit or something - does anyone have a link?

 

 

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Avigrus.2871" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > Well for wvw. Anet could just put an icd on the f2 corrupt like... 7seconds. That wouldnt hurt any pve nec and would give good necro players a chance to shine.

> > But also we need to get that obstructed thingi fixed rlly badly. On some points of the map i cant even portal with flat ground. Cause its obstructed!?!

> > And even worse with the shades. Rlly. Take that back and let us bomb walls.

> > I mean, every other class can do that as well but necro isnt allowed to?

>

> Regarding the "Obstructed" bug - that was a bug, but it has now become a feature of the Scourge.

>

> A-net posted about it on Reddit or something - does anyone have a link?

 

What was never a bug. Anet flat stated that they intentionally introduced the LoS requirement to try and prevent Scourge from breaking WvW and sPvP anymore than it already was.

 

 

[Avigrus.2871]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Avigrus.2871" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > Well for wvw. Anet could just put an icd on the f2 corrupt like... 7seconds. That wouldnt hurt any pve nec and would give good necro players a chance to shine.

> > > But also we need to get that obstructed thingi fixed rlly badly. On some points of the map i cant even portal with flat ground. Cause its obstructed!?!

> > > And even worse with the shades. Rlly. Take that back and let us bomb walls.

> > > I mean, every other class can do that as well but necro isnt allowed to?

> >

> > Regarding the "Obstructed" bug - that was a bug, but it has now become a feature of the Scourge.

> >

> > A-net posted about it on Reddit or something - does anyone have a link?

>

> What was never a bug. Anet flat stated that they intentionally introduced the LoS requirement to try and prevent Scourge from breaking WvW and sPvP anymore than it already was.

>

>

 

A stealth nerf then - it was never mentioned in patch notes.

[stormwings.8329]

> @"Avigrus.2871" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > Well for wvw. Anet could just put an icd on the f2 corrupt like... 7seconds. That wouldnt hurt any pve nec and would give good necro players a chance to shine.

> > But also we need to get that obstructed thingi fixed rlly badly. On some points of the map i cant even portal with flat ground. Cause its obstructed!?!

> > And even worse with the shades. Rlly. Take that back and let us bomb walls.

> > I mean, every other class can do that as well but necro isnt allowed to?

>

> Regarding the "Obstructed" bug - that was a bug, but it has now become a feature of the Scourge.

>

> A-net posted about it on Reddit or something - does anyone have a link?

>

>

 

Btw i think that theres still no answer for Abrasive Grit and, if the things will go like the obstructed bug (feature only for Anet), well never see a fix.

Is so stupid to see obstructed on a open field fight in wvw on your MSS cast especially when all the other skills can hit without any problem

[Anchoku.8142]

Necromancer would not play the same without pathing issues.

[Lexan.5930]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> To some extent it's a L2P issue. I don't know why but a lot of players can't deal with condition damage. They don't get the mechanics for some reason.

>

> Allies are dying like flies around me when we face a Scourge and I am still fighting him when they are back from respawn just to watch them dying instantly again. That's super frustrating.

>

> Yesterday a few randoms of my server lost a 5v2 vs. a Scourge+Hammer/Staff Revenant. The FB dropped first. It was ridiculous. When I roam with a competent fellow we destroy Scourge+FB teams no matter what composition we run. That does not mean that Scourge+FB is a weak composition. It just shows that there is a lot of room for personal skill improvement for most players.

>

> I am aware of Scourge+FB in Conquest. If this comp can camp the node, you have a problem - a problem a LB-Ranger won't solve. But in every other scenario Scourge is totally dealable - even weak to say the least.

 

in sPvP if there is a FB + scourge combo, all you ahve to do is focus the FB and cleave the scourge in a 2v2 and the FB wont be able to buff and heal the scourge and you should be fine. As long as you have a lot of unblockable skills, boon strip and burst.

 

SO many times i see people complain about scourge, but really, we have such little mobility and sustain options that when we use up our CD's they have such a long CD that you can burst right after that. Just ask any smart holosmith with their 4 stuns/knock downs, that scourge is super easy to burst down.

[ToPNoP.2493]

Stop giving thief so much exhaustion, that will be enough fix for me.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

in terms of nerfs I think a good place to start would be to give unending corruption / desert empowerment an icd (3sec maybe), remove cripple from manifest sand shade, and remove cripple from some other skills as well (mainly the conversion from ghastly breach).