Vieux P.1238 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > Mesmer > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > Necromancer > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > Guardian > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > Thief > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > Ranger > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > Elementalist > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > Revenant > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > Warrior > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falan.1839 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 This is actually a good player who knows what the current meta is about and posts meaningful suggestion on how to improve the pvp instead of just making another whine thread or just troll around like most players currently do. So yeah, Anet is probably going to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link.1049 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Menyus.4610" said: > People really want to see thief gettin nerfed again wth? Why the hell it would need a nerf? Ever played it? Do you now how bad larceneous strike, and flaking strikeare? -it has 130 range but feels like 50 if you get cripple or any condi you gonna basically hit the air if u dont have a gap closer skill on cd, and what is this core madness? All i saw in past season was sindrener, sizer wanna be guys contributing nothing to the enemy team i think i aint lost a single match when a core thief was in the enemy team, it deal some damage then its auto invulnerable pops and panic away all the time. Daredevil d/p + s/d is far superior to core thief, but sure lets just nerf thieves damage, but seriously if u have problem with s/d thief what u do against a holo? that class deals more damage then a thief from further away more cc more survivability and thanks to superspeed it nearly catches up with its mobility oh and it deals aoe It's not a balance patch if thief hasn't been nerfed. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Soulbeast or deadeye not even mentioned, and weaver needs condi cleanse in its weaver trait line without relying on water, other than that it's fine. Wonder where are all the "LOL JUST DODGE THE MINES L2P ISSUE" engi mains at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikki.7891 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > > > Mesmer > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > > > Necromancer > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > > > Guardian > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > > > Thief > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > > > Ranger > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > > > Elementalist > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > > > Revenant > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > > > Warrior > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. What is his main? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"aniratac.7159" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"NotoriousNaru.1705" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > Be careful what you suggest as changes. Try to look at balance game-wide, not just for spvp. Right now players should be focusing on the major issues and not the minor ones. AKA: OP Firebrand Support - OP Scourge Condi which is mainly due to mass AoE boon conversions - OP Mirage Condi pressure in 1v1s considering its wide variety of utility and high survivability. > > > > > > > > Nothing else even begins to compare to the problems that the above 3 are causing in terms of balance/match making/diversity in choice of what to play. > > > > > > People like you are so narrow minded and stupid. WAHHH OP this OP that when you're SUPPOSED to look at the bigger picture. This post is just that. People like you complain about the meta not being balanced but all they think about is "gut op stuff" but what you don't realize is the consequence of that. Things need to get toned down yes but it needs to be relative to every other class to avoid something else being broken. Read this post and maybe you'll realize how nerfs to FB effect scourge, or how nerfs to S/D effect FB or how nerfs to scourge effect holo etc. Educate yourself on the meta before you start crying OP OP OP. I hope anet never listens to people like you. > > > > > > > mm hrm > > > > FORUM WARRIORING IS ITS OWN GAME MODE BRO LETS TRY HARD > > > >  > > > > Let me guess what you'll do next: > > * Sign into a few forum alts and post in this thread to make it look like people agree with you > > * Call in some buddies on their accounts to post in this thread to make it look like people agree with you > > * Feel a sense of gratification after manipulating a given scenario into a situation that makes it look like you are winning > > I'm not one of his "buddies" and I agree with him while disagreeing with what you said. Nerfing scourge and firebrand would only result in holo, mirage, s/d thief and spellbreaker being the new "scourge and firebrand". It would possibly just limit the ammount of viable meta builds. As it was said to you already, it's important to look at the bigger picture. A good balance patch should be aimed at adjusting the meta classes, because changing one will affect all the others. There's more to it in this game than just scourge and firebrand. Anet devs should listen to more experienced pvp players with good ingame knowledge. Oh, hello there alt account with only 1 discussion posted ever. Damn man, you can't get anything done without attempting to manipulate a situation and make it look like something that it isn't. If you want to hide alt activity, don't enter a thread with obvious attention grabbing disclaimers like: "I'm not one of his buddies". Either way Naru, I didn't say to neuter Firebrand/Scourge and I understand how intra-class dynamics change when something gets nerfed. I know you main Scourge but in all seriousness, if a better intra-class dynamic is to be achieved, they cannot simply ignore the current state of Firebrand/Scourge. Good feedback, keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieux P.1238 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > > > > > Mesmer > > > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > > > > > Necromancer > > > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > > > > > Guardian > > > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > > > > > Thief > > > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > > > > > Ranger > > > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > > > > > Elementalist > > > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > > > > > Warrior > > > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. > > > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. > > What is his main? If you don't read the whole thing , how can you figure that out? hahaha read it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > > > > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > > > > > > > Mesmer > > > > > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > > > > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > > > > > > > Necromancer > > > > > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > > > > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > > > > > > > Guardian > > > > > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > > > > > > > Thief > > > > > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > > > > > > > Ranger > > > > > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > > > > > > > Elementalist > > > > > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > > > > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > > > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > > > > > > > Warrior > > > > > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. > > > > > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. > > > > What is his main? > > If you don't read the whole thing , how can you figure that out? hahaha read it! I know the answer, but I am curious what you think it is since your original statement doesn't make much sense considering what was written and what the answer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"aniratac.7159" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"NotoriousNaru.1705" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > Be careful what you suggest as changes. Try to look at balance game-wide, not just for spvp. Right now players should be focusing on the major issues and not the minor ones. AKA: OP Firebrand Support - OP Scourge Condi which is mainly due to mass AoE boon conversions - OP Mirage Condi pressure in 1v1s considering its wide variety of utility and high survivability. > > > > > > > > Nothing else even begins to compare to the problems that the above 3 are causing in terms of balance/match making/diversity in choice of what to play. > > > > > > People like you are so narrow minded and stupid. WAHHH OP this OP that when you're SUPPOSED to look at the bigger picture. This post is just that. People like you complain about the meta not being balanced but all they think about is "gut op stuff" but what you don't realize is the consequence of that. Things need to get toned down yes but it needs to be relative to every other class to avoid something else being broken. Read this post and maybe you'll realize how nerfs to FB effect scourge, or how nerfs to S/D effect FB or how nerfs to scourge effect holo etc. Educate yourself on the meta before you start crying OP OP OP. I hope anet never listens to people like you. > > > > > > > mm hrm > > > > FORUM WARRIORING IS ITS OWN GAME MODE BRO LETS TRY HARD > > > >  > > > > Let me guess what you'll do next: > > * Sign into a few forum alts and post in this thread to make it look like people agree with you > > * Call in some buddies on their accounts to post in this thread to make it look like people agree with you > > * Feel a sense of gratification after manipulating a given scenario into a situation that makes it look like you are winning > > I'm not one of his "buddies" and I agree with him while disagreeing with what you said. Nerfing scourge and firebrand would only result in holo, mirage, s/d thief and spellbreaker being the new "scourge and firebrand". It would possibly just limit the ammount of viable meta builds. As it was said to you already, it's important to look at the bigger picture. A good balance patch should be aimed at adjusting the meta classes, because changing one will affect all the others. There's more to it in this game than just scourge and firebrand. Anet devs should listen to more experienced pvp players with good ingame knowledge. 100% correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikki.7891 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > > > > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > > > > > > > Mesmer > > > > > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > > > > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > > > > > > > Necromancer > > > > > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > > > > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > > > > > > > Guardian > > > > > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > > > > > > > Thief > > > > > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > > > > > > > Ranger > > > > > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > > > > > > > Elementalist > > > > > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > > > > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > > > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > > > > > > > Warrior > > > > > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. > > > > > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. > > > > What is his main? > > If you don't read the whole thing , how can you figure that out? hahaha read it! Weaver? How are you going to call someone out for bias of a class but can't state which one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMonty.3719 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 The stupidest design ever is that the necro can use the ground that *everyone has to walk on* as a weapon. And that weapon is way to powerful which is pretty much 8 of the ten skills that make the ground un usable... Really now, whos stupid idea was that? Doesn't anet realize how much of an advantage that is against every class in the game?... Until that is 100% nerfed there is never going to be balance in pvp.. 1 sure way to balance this game is to completely delete scourge.... (yea its not gonna happen)... Anyhow, pretty much no way to counter scourge except with ranger bow or dead eye though there is no garauntee to get one in the pvp selection of team mates... Now add in the 2 and 3 scourge fights dilema.... (un believable pathetic unbalance when this happens)..... how is it ya can not que 3 of the same class in ranked, but when in the match you can re-log to have a 3rd and 4th of same class? How has this not been addressed as well as beyond totally nerfing the ground weapon aspect of scourge, how about adding that there is no way to have more then one necro on a team?... I have a feeling anet does not even test these balances... they leave it up to us and the insane unbalanced pvp in this game could also be looked at like this, It is obviously used for one thing... *To make people think they are good, then they start to buy things from the gem store* its a manipulation and from what i can tell, this has been going on since the creation of this game... Every other pvp class game ive played is balanced very well and its fair to a certain limit where this game is not fair or balanced at all, not even close, its so bad that it must only be a sales technique to manipulate fools into spending money. Those who do not see this as the only way it can be so un-balanaced just can not think from a perspective of being the owner of the game.. The game isnt about balance and fun fair play, to the owners its all about profit... for the most part the players are suckers who buy things from the gemstore feeling they are a good player due to the new specs put out... But the reality is that Its a design to make sales... Really growing tired of the absolute ignorance to balance a game... Its obvious they are not balancing it on purpose. As for other classes... Wow, Revenant has not had any water skills for years? They cant seem to fix this? Revenant is so weak its pathetic... There are maybe 2 legendary pvp revenant players. Scourge its like 80% of the lengendary peolple and then engi are about 15%... Cant figure that out huh? Every class except warrior have a ton of spells to pick from. The revenant has only one set. Ya get what ya get and thats it? Engi can just fly away, Engi gets invulnerable at 10% life? Once caught in the engi trap, usually your dead and no way to get away from the knockback holo attacks.. Trap ranger, same thing, they can use combos to basically take over, knock ya down and your dead in 3 buttons.. Revenant cant do that to any class, not even close.. Every class seems to have counter to revenants but revenants have no counter to anything? Ele when played right can be very good, I think complaints here are just those who can not play ele effectivly. Thiefs have a ton of spells to pick from... Thief seems to have a great set of options Warrior works well, i do not hear many complain about warrior being unbalanced. Scourge, Ele, Ranger... almost no class can counter them except warrior. Anyhow, my words may not be the best here, but its easy to tell Anet is not really concerned about balance, they go from one Over Powered build to the next, nerfing one to the other, creating more as time goes by in order to sell people things... Its the finale of my post here is that they are trying to sell things, not balance the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieux P.1238 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer > > > > > > > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > > > > > > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > > > > > > > > > Necromancer > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > > > > > > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > > > > > > > > > Guardian > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > > > > > > > > > Thief > > > > > > > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Ranger > > > > > > > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > > > > > > > > > Elementalist > > > > > > > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > > > > > > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > > > > > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior > > > > > > > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. > > > > > > > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. > > > > > > What is his main? > > > > If you don't read the whole thing , how can you figure that out? hahaha read it! > > Weaver? > > How are you going to call someone out for bias of a class but can't state which one. ;) plz send him gems...winner. At least someone read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossun.2046 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"JayAction.9056" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands > > > > > > Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally. > > > > Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said. > > > > Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double. > > > > Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao > > God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you. You main weaver now?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieux P.1238 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Bossun.2046" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > @"JayAction.9056" said: > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands > > > > > > > > > Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally. > > > > > > Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said. > > > > > > Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double. > > > > > > Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao > > > > God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you. > > You main weaver now?!?!?! is nt guard? or druid? or warrior or mirage or perhaps if you guys watch his stream you might be suspecting thief or something like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Shaogin.2679" said: > So far for Druid suggestions I've seen . . . > * Nerf Longbow 3 > * Nerf Troll Unguent > * Nerf Celestial Shadow > * Buff Verdant Etching > * Nerf Signet of Stone > > Can we please not punish Ranger and Soulbeast just because Druid has issues? Is anyone really thinking Ranger and Soulbeast are OP and in need of nerfing? If Druid stealth is the problem, then nerf Celestial Shadow. > > As for Troll Unguent though, I wouldn't argue against increasing the cast time. It is a strong heal when traited, and a 1.25 sec cast time wouldn't kill it, but it would provide better counterplay. Nerfing the healing is completely unnecessary though. Tf are people asking for Signet of Stone nerfs again??? It's on a 80 sec cooldown. Are people still bad even they can only use stone every 80 and not only the fact that the ranger is already gimping themselves if they run double stone. Marksman Rangers/druids are bad. This is not meta. It's a gimmick at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilence.2859 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > Agree with most of OPs post, with one exception to point out: > Warrior > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. Spellbreaker is in a better spot after some of it's most overtuned abilities were toned down, but it's survivability against everything that isn't specifically high condi damage + boonstrip is still a bit too high. It's fine to have good 1v1 classes, or bunker classes that can hold out 1v2 or even 1v3 for a while, but not as long as SB currently can, and not while still being able to dish out very high damage and be hyper mobile. The amount of sustain a good SB has from it's low cooldown counter/block/immunity rotation against physical damage classes is still a bit too much, and just completely invalidates many potential physical damage builds if your team doesn't happen to have the necessary condi pressure. It's a similar issue to Druid's sustain via stealths and regen, but with considerably more damage due to SB's sustain not requiring healing power, and having high enough base HP to use Demolisher's amulet for both good armor and high damage, instead of Mender's or Avatar's. At least fighting a Druid, they can't contest the point while in stealth, whereas an SB still contests even while blocking or damage immune. I'm all for tuning down Druid's 1v1/1v2+ abilities slightly, but SB's deserve similar treatment for similar reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > @"Ikki.7891" said: > > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed. > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer > > > > > > > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst. > > > > > > > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully. > > > > > > > > > > Necromancer > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts. > > > > > > > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once. > > > > > > > > > > Guardian > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against. > > > > > > > > > > Thief > > > > > > > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Ranger > > > > > > > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. > > > > > > > > > > Elementalist > > > > > > > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some. > > > > > > > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive. > > > > > > > > > > Revenant > > > > > > > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior > > > > > > > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything. > > > > > > > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle. > > > > > > What is his main? > > > > If you don't read the whole thing , how can you figure that out? hahaha read it! > > Weaver? > > How are you going to call someone out for bias of a class but can't state which one. Maybe you should look at the links in my description and see what class i clearly main LUL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 thats just the difference between someone who comes in here with a personal agenda, and one who comes in with a wordly agenda, you guys are all looking for your class to be op. I don't give a fuck if my class is op, I played thief when it was considered unplayable right after rev came out. I want the game to be good, not my class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > thats just the difference between someone who comes in here with a personal agenda, and one who comes in with a wordly agenda, you guys are all looking for your class to be op. I don't give a kitten if my class is op, I played thief when it was considered unplayable right after rev came out. I want the game to be good, not my class. People are always going to be bias unfortunately. It is rare to actually see someone wanting to make everything balance, and not gutting classes just because they have been strong for a season or two. Gonna be honest folks, a lot of you thought process is short-term and not long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian.9103 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Vallun is one of the few remaining high tier players that actually cares for the game. I won't say that everything he says is perfect, but he made a serious, thoughtful post here and deserves a serious, open minded discussion. About Druid: I understand that a nerf should best only hit Druid. What do you think could be a nerf to druid sustain, that does not leave the spec useless and also does not affect core ranger / sb? Celestial Avatar adds soo much to the survivability, but ut is such an important mechanic, that it needs to be touched carefully. Maybe increasing the cooldown of CA form could do the trick to give enemies more opportunities to kill the druid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalt.8937 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"Meridian.9103" said: > Vallun is one of the few remaining high tier players that actually cares for the game. I won't say that everything he says is perfect, but he made a serious, thoughtful post here and deserves a serious, open minded discussion. > > About Druid: > I understand that a nerf should best only hit Druid. > What do you think could be a nerf to druid sustain, that does not leave the spec useless and also does not affect core ranger / sb? Celestial Avatar adds soo much to the survivability, but ut is such an important mechanic, that it needs to be touched carefully. Maybe increasing the cooldown of CA form could do the trick to give enemies more opportunities to kill the druid? Either make pets scale with player stats so that druids cant be all sustain with some damage while pets do lots of damage. Or/and put an icd on celestal shadow, since its being kinda abused . Perhaps remobe the superspeed it provides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menyus.4610 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"zalt.8937" said: > > @"Meridian.9103" said: > > Vallun is one of the few remaining high tier players that actually cares for the game. I won't say that everything he says is perfect, but he made a serious, thoughtful post here and deserves a serious, open minded discussion. > > > > About Druid: > > I understand that a nerf should best only hit Druid. > > What do you think could be a nerf to druid sustain, that does not leave the spec useless and also does not affect core ranger / sb? Celestial Avatar adds soo much to the survivability, but ut is such an important mechanic, that it needs to be touched carefully. Maybe increasing the cooldown of CA form could do the trick to give enemies more opportunities to kill the druid? > > Either make pets scale with player stats so that druids cant be all sustain with some damage while pets do lots of damage. Or/and put an icd on celestal shadow, since its being kinda abused . Perhaps remobe the superspeed it provides. An increase to smokescale knockdown would be good, also they could make celestial form more of a support like glyphs u heal less to yourself but increased outgoing healing or something like this, so they would loose a bit of their tankiness but they would be more compensated at midfights.(They cele heals can be easily interrupted by thieves, and also in this current meta poision is like a must have condi). These are just rough ideas tho not really a druid expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraitan.8476 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Beside that 1 change on ranger LB3, how about making soulbeast at least semi-viable? It's been months since PoF released and it's still trash tier.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anduriell.6280 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 About the Druid: me a main ranger I can say the proposition to nerf the core ranger skills can’t be more wrong. Increasing the cd in LB3 would hurt other builds from core ranger and soul beast and would do nothing to balance the stealth time from the Druid. What it should be done is: * remove super speed from celestial shadow. * Move Druidic clarity to master so it competes with celestial shadow. * Place verdant etching in adept. * Seeds of life to remove one condition on cast another condition two second later (when the fungus disappear and the heal applies) * maybe to balance the lack of superspeed to reposition increase 1 second the stealth in celestial shadow. That way we acomplish many balances with the Druid: * seeds of life becomes an important team support to cleanse on point. Because of the delay it’s not an useful skill just for dueling. * The incredible sustain is chipped because Druid has to choose between stealth or cleanses/stun break. * the stealth capabilities is chipped because when the stealth they can’t outrun damage unless other means. And in the meanwhile core ranger skills are not touched so a nerf doesn’t destroy other builds which are balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 > @"witcher.3197" said: > I'd make guardian tomes into 3 elite skills, like they used to be. Giving them 15 extra buttons to faceroll is too much and makes them too versatile. Make them decide between damage, healing and damage mitigation. Bam you have build diversity and a more balanced spec. Oh and take away the mantra elite obviously. > > For scourge, shade skills shouldn't be usable in a stunlock. Disagree with the Guardian change, agree with scourge (and i play scourge). If you're stunned only stun-breaks should work (in all classes btw)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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