What city will be attacked first?

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> That's what's so hard to believe, quite a bit more than "Joko somehow got spies [through Tyria's attempt to prevent travel from Elona since he took over](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sparking_the_Flame#Dialogue), beyond [blockaded passageways](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Gate_Guard), and without [notifying a group still in contact with Elona](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Order_of_Whispers)."

 

I think the Tyrian lockdown was made to prevent people from Tyria to go to Elona rather than keep the elonians from going to Tyria (the influx of elonian refugees is a proof of this), after all how would you prevent a ship from elona from landing in some quiet and unguarded beach in Tyria? no matter if it is difficult, I think its quite possible for joko to bring spies to Tyria

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The lockdown seemed to be more of a trade embargo act against Elona, which meant that most Tyrians did not go but they did not explicitly prevent all travel to and fro.

 

However, the fact that the Desert Gate got locked down is proof that at some point, Tyrians did prevent all travel access. Furthermore, in Ghosts of Ascalon Kranxx makes a comment about how hard it is to cross the Crystal Desert to reach Elona, and hinted that he knew only the Order of Whispers knew how to, which implied that for quite some time (e.g., the current generation's time), access was prevented.

 

As to the point of the refugees: Refugees ceased coming in 50 years prior to the game, give or take, and that was the last official known contact from Elona. I'd be sure that they would have a screening process of some kind for the refugees. And it'd be hard to believe that whatever spies Joko had sent over with the refugees would be 1) alive and able to send messages back (they'd have to have been adults more than likely, to avoid allowing "Tyrian falsities" to influence their state of mind, so we're talking 70+ years old here), 2) have kids that would be willing to fulfill those duties, and/or 3) not be caught in such an expansive timeframe.

 

So any spies Joko has in Tyria now likely came from Elona well after the last set of refugees, had managed to learn enough about Tyrian customs to not be called out and caught, managed to get information back to Elona through a blockade, *and* be privy to details that the closest allies of the Order of Whispers would know. And most importantly: not be "undoctrinated" after seeing how different the two rulings are.

 

This... is an amazing feat when you really look at it. Questionably so.

 

It's also a bit strange how Elonians use New Krytan alphabets in Amnoon, Vabbi, and even Istan.

[Durzlla.6295]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" well it would appear Jokos school do teach more than just the alternative history of Tyria lol.

 

Is it possible that instead of having new spies Joko actually has awakened mesmers serving as his spies? I personally didn’t notice any mesmers in his ranks of mobs in GW2, but that doesn’t mean he’s lacking a handful of elite awakened mesmers to serve in espionage, especially given the fact we only ever see the one or two awakened Dervishes.

 

Also, Zhaitan used Mesmer magic to disguise some of his risen as members of the pact before, so I wouldn’t be too surprised if Joko hasn’t been doing it before then, and if they weren’t trying to jeopardize the pact, but mearly observe it’s unlikely they’d raise suspicion.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I did consider that, but could such mesmers maintain their illusions at all times, avoid any foul smell, never once get mistaken as a risen, and/or actually manage to fool the Order of Whispers who would undoubtably be paying attention to, and themselves using, active mesmeric magic? If the Mesmer Collective could figure out the krait raised an illusionary veil, I'm sure the Order of Whispers could figure out there's someone else spying on who they're spying on.

 

Those risen members didn't remain disguised very long, for that matter. They were figured out within days if not hours.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The lockdown seemed to be more of a trade embargo act against Elona, which meant that most Tyrians did not go but they did not explicitly prevent all travel to and fro.

>

> However, the fact that the Desert Gate got locked down is proof that at some point, Tyrians did prevent all travel access. Furthermore, in Ghosts of Ascalon Kranxx makes a comment about how hard it is to cross the Crystal Desert to reach Elona, and hinted that he knew only the Order of Whispers knew how to, which implied that for quite some time (e.g., the current generation's time), access was prevented.

>

> As to the point of the refugees: Refugees ceased coming in 50 years prior to the game, give or take, and that was the last official known contact from Elona. I'd be sure that they would have a screening process of some kind for the refugees. And it'd be hard to believe that whatever spies Joko had sent over with the refugees would be 1) alive and able to send messages back (they'd have to have been adults more than likely, to avoid allowing "Tyrian falsities" to influence their state of mind, so we're talking 70+ years old here), 2) have kids that would be willing to fulfill those duties, and/or 3) not be caught in such an expansive timeframe.

>

> So any spies Joko has in Tyria now likely came from Elona well after the last set of refugees, had managed to learn enough about Tyrian customs to not be called out and caught, managed to get information back to Elona through a blockade, *and* be privy to details that the closest allies of the Order of Whispers would know. And most importantly: not be "undoctrinated" after seeing how different the two rulings are.

 

If joko does have spies in Tyria, I don't think they were sent recently, even more I believe he's been sending spies ever since he conquered Elona as a way to keep informed on the movements of the Tyrians Goverments, and he doesn't need to send people posing as refugees, they could just be trained spies pretending to be adventures and thats it, no one would question them because until last year joko was inactive (at least in Tyria) for hundreds of years. Only recently Joko came back to the show and everyone will start being cautious about him, but by now he must already have spies with roots and backgrounds in Tyria, or even worse... a spy who is a high ranking officer in one of the goverments, the orders or even the pact itself.

 

Now, the question about how does joko and these informants communicate is indeed a mystery, maybe joko deviced a way to do this? like some spell bound to the spy that can show him what the spy has seen or heard? (it could explain how joko managed to get such precise information, but this is just theory)

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I did consider that, but could such mesmers maintain their illusions at all times, avoid any foul smell, never once get mistaken as a risen, and/or actually manage to fool the Order of Whispers who would undoubtably be paying attention to, and themselves using, active mesmeric magic? If the Mesmer Collective could figure out the krait raised an illusionary veil, I'm sure the Order of Whispers could figure out there's someone else spying on who they're spying on.

>

> Those risen members didn't remain disguised very long, for that matter. They were figured out within days if not hours.

 

To be honest i think it’d really depend on the quality of Mesmer, if it were a Mesmer on the level of say, Kasmeer, or even the Mesmer equivalent of a Warden Amala I feel like they’d be able to.

 

The real question is would they need to be able to pose as a pact member 24/7 or not, because with the info we KNOW Joko has it wouldn’t require someone whose super high ranked in the pact, even someone who was more of a freelance adventurer who helps out the pact a lot would have this sort of knowledge and detail. Which may give the Mesmer some much needed leeway in their abilities.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> My suspicion is that Joko isn't after a military victory at all. Even if he managed to take a city and plunder it, he'd never be able to _hold_ it, and that being the case, in the medium-term it'd only provoke a given race to throw its whole weight behind the war. Joko's a long-term thinker; he wouldn't do that to himself unless he had an ace up his sleeve.

>

> My bet is that these incursions, scattered and at random, are just a distraction. Tie the enemy down, keep them concerned and preoccupied and on the defensive to buy time for the real plan. From what we saw in Fahrunur, smart money is that he's staking his victory on reviving the Scarab Plague and releasing it on Core Tyria. If it turns out that his Awakened troops are immune to it, then he'd be able to sit back and let it devastate us before moving in to mop up whatever he wishes to.

>

> (It also, potentially, could solve his issues at home, if he's willing to kill off ~a third of his living subjects. Istan would make a great warning as to the price of defiance, it'd give his armies a surge of new manpower before the Core Tyria campaign... and, honestly, he strikes me as the type who'd appreciate the irony of history repeating itself under his hand.)

 

1) He's after a military victory- to prove that we- the Commanders - are to blame for his attack, he wants us to see the destruction, he wants us to see how our friends die or are about to die (like Taimi). Also why would he suddenly change his tactic that worked for centuries? And his tactic is to fear people and then use this fear to control others. Also look at Amala, the High Priestess that was very powerful bowed before Joko, controlled with a single stick touch.

 

2) For example he controlled Palawadan (was Kamadan first) and it seems he holds it and his army isn't retreating. Why wouldn't it happen to Divinity's Reach or Rata Sum? (I'd not be surprised if they would be renamed for Palawa's Reach or Joko Sum). Also Tyria is not as united as it used to be in like Season 2, and the Pact is just starting to rebuild its strenght. Also if you go fight against Awakened in Queensdale or Caledon Forest, only one race fights for their own. You can say that Charr were eager to help Human in the Battle for Divinity's Reach, or more commonly for Lake Doric, but it was just a small percent of charr, only few wanted to defend alliance built on Claw of the Khan-Ur. Sylvari are also unwelcome after what happened in the Jungle. Joko may take everything if he wants, and the fact that Kralky flies freely over Tyria (I mean planet) may be his only chance to make people more scared and then use this fear for his purpose.

 

3) The problem is that Logan already knows, so the Pact, that's been rebuilding since the Crash, is being prepared for attack at any time, I mean Logan is a great warrior and he knows his tactics, so he also knows he cannot treat this situation lightly. And as Awakened Asura said, he declarated the war against Tyria, because of our actions in Elona and leaving him in the Mists.

 

I don't know why everybody is talking about this Scarab Plague so much, he didn't need scarabs to control Istan or Elona or Vabbi, so why would he make distractions before the plague, and not just send the scarabs and check if it worked, I mean everyone died? We should find out it in Episode 2, hopefully, and find out what he's really up to.

 

But if he would take control over one city, then that would make a real distraction, and then he would be able to lie waste all over Tyria. He, as we can't fight for everything and we and he need one target, because that's how you can win- you need to be united to beat your enemy.

 

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > My suspicion is that Joko isn't after a military victory at all. Even if he managed to take a city and plunder it, he'd never be able to _hold_ it, and that being the case, in the medium-term it'd only provoke a given race to throw its whole weight behind the war. Joko's a long-term thinker; he wouldn't do that to himself unless he had an ace up his sleeve.

> >

> > My bet is that these incursions, scattered and at random, are just a distraction. Tie the enemy down, keep them concerned and preoccupied and on the defensive to buy time for the real plan. From what we saw in Fahrunur, smart money is that he's staking his victory on reviving the Scarab Plague and releasing it on Core Tyria. If it turns out that his Awakened troops are immune to it, then he'd be able to sit back and let it devastate us before moving in to mop up whatever he wishes to.

> >

> > (It also, potentially, could solve his issues at home, if he's willing to kill off ~a third of his living subjects. Istan would make a great warning as to the price of defiance, it'd give his armies a surge of new manpower before the Core Tyria campaign... and, honestly, he strikes me as the type who'd appreciate the irony of history repeating itself under his hand.)

>

> 1) He's after a military victory- to prove that we- the Commanders - are to blame for his attack, he wants us to see the destruction, he wants us to see how our friends die or are about to die (like Taimi). Also why would he suddenly change his tactic that worked for centuries? And his tactic is to fear people and then use this fear to control others. Also look at Amala, the High Priestess that was very powerful bowed before Joko, controlled with a single stick touch.

>

> 2) For example he controlled Palawadan (was Kamadan first) and it seems he holds it and his army isn't retreating. Why wouldn't it happen to Divinity's Reach or Rata Sum? (I'd not be surprised if they would be renamed for Palawa's Reach or Joko Sum). Also Tyria is not as united as it used to be in like Season 2, and the Pact is just starting to rebuild its strenght. Also if you go fight against Awakened in Queensdale or Caledon Forest, only one race fights for their own. You can say that Charr were eager to help Human in the Battle for Divinity's Reach, or more commonly for Lake Doric, but it was just a small percent of charr, only few wanted to defend alliance built on Claw of the Khan-Ur. Sylvari are also unwelcome after what happened in the Jungle. Joko may take everything if he wants, and the fact that Kralky flies freely over Tyria (I mean planet) may be his only chance to make people more scared and then use this fear for his purpose.

>

> 3) The problem is that Logan already knows, so the Pact, that's been rebuilding since the Crash, is being prepared for attack at any time, I mean Logan is a great warrior and he knows his tactics, so he also knows he cannot treat this situation lightly. And as Awakened Asura said, he declarated the war against Tyria, because of our actions in Elona and leaving him in the Mists.

>

> I don't know why everybody is talking about this Scarab Plague so much, he didn't need scarabs to control Istan or Elona or Vabbi, so why would he make distractions before the plague, and not just send the scarabs and check if it worked, I mean everyone died? We should find out it in Episode 2, hopefully, and find out what he's really up to.

>

> But if he would take control over one city, then that would make a real distraction, and then he would be able to lie waste all over Tyria. He, as we can't fight for everything and we and he need one target, because that's how you can win- you need to be united to beat your enemy.

>

>

 

your explanation of how to use fear fits perfectly.

 

About Scarab, that's what I mentioned in other posts, Joko's forces are not enough to face the pact + regular forces of the realms outside of Elona.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > My suspicion is that Joko isn't after a military victory at all. Even if he managed to take a city and plunder it, he'd never be able to _hold_ it, and that being the case, in the medium-term it'd only provoke a given race to throw its whole weight behind the war. Joko's a long-term thinker; he wouldn't do that to himself unless he had an ace up his sleeve.

> >

> > My bet is that these incursions, scattered and at random, are just a distraction. Tie the enemy down, keep them concerned and preoccupied and on the defensive to buy time for the real plan. From what we saw in Fahrunur, smart money is that he's staking his victory on reviving the Scarab Plague and releasing it on Core Tyria. If it turns out that his Awakened troops are immune to it, then he'd be able to sit back and let it devastate us before moving in to mop up whatever he wishes to.

> >

> > (It also, potentially, could solve his issues at home, if he's willing to kill off ~a third of his living subjects. Istan would make a great warning as to the price of defiance, it'd give his armies a surge of new manpower before the Core Tyria campaign... and, honestly, he strikes me as the type who'd appreciate the irony of history repeating itself under his hand.)

>

> 1) He's after a military victory- to prove that we- the Commanders - are to blame for his attack, he wants us to see the destruction, he wants us to see how our friends die or are about to die (like Taimi). Also why would he suddenly change his tactic that worked for centuries? And his tactic is to fear people and then use this fear to control others. Also look at Amala, the High Priestess that was very powerful bowed before Joko, controlled with a single stick touch.

> 2) For example he controlled Palawadan (was Kamadan first) and it seems he holds it and his army isn't retreating. Why wouldn't it happen to Divinity's Reach or Rata Sum? (I'd not be surprised if they would be renamed for Palawa's Reach or Joko Sum).

 

> ...I don't know why everybody is talking about this Scarab Plague so much, he didn't need scarabs to control Istan or Elona or Vabbi, so why would he make distractions before the plague, and not just send the scarabs and check if it worked, I mean everyone died? We should find out it in Episode 2, hopefully, and find out what he's really up to.

 

All of this comes down to one very, very good reason. He conquered Elona after a _century_ of building up his forces, and he did it by imposing a country-wide drought. He has no Elon River to dam this time, and his forces are critically weak and already fighting a war on the home front with the Branded. Moreover, everything we know about Joko tells us that he'd know this, and wouldn't pick a fight he couldn't win. He's too patient for that, and a Lich-King can afford to be. So, if he's striking now, that tells us that he's either A.) bluffing, or B.) has something besides an army up his sleeve.

 

As for Palawadan, we're talking about a city held occupied solely by his supporters and soldiers, facing a mob of starving half-trained villagers wielding scavenged weapons... and that mob _still_ did a very thorough job of sacking the place. In Divinity's Reach he'd be facing a fortress-city garrisoned by a veteran army with every reason to oppose him and who knows how many magical safeguards on their side, and even if he managed to overcome them, he'd still have the rest of that army converging on him to take it back.

 

>Also Tyria is not as united as it used to be in like Season 2,

I'm not sure why you say that. There've been changes sure, but as many for the better as for the worse.

 

>Also if you go fight against Awakened in Queensdale or Caledon Forest, only one race fights for their own.

Yeah, but these are early days. The first responders are obviously going to be the people who live there. It's also worth noting that the asura Peacemaker extends his offer and works with you regardless of your race, so the cooperation is already starting.

 

>You can say that Charr were eager to help Human in the Battle for Divinity's Reach, or more commonly for Lake Doric, but it was just a small percent of charr, only few wanted to defend alliance built on Claw of the Khan-Ur.

That's... not how the Legions work. They're an army, all of them, and they go where they're ordered. There's no way Sentinels (which is still weird) got deployed to Kryta without at least the head of the Iron Legion signing off on it.

 

>Sylvari are also unwelcome after what happened in the Jungle.

Possibly, possibly not. It's been three years now, and as far as we know, the various official governments never turned against them.

 

>Joko may take everything if he wants, and the fact that Kralky flies freely over Tyria (I mean planet) may be his only chance to make people more scared and then use this fear for his purpose.

The fact that Kralkatorrik flies freely over **his country** and is slowly turning it into a monster-infested crater is exactly why he can't be sending his full forces into Tyria. A few probing attacks is one thing, but an entire campaign, after we've been told that the Forged and Branded already have the Awakened at a dangerous low, shouldn't be in the cards.

 

> 3) The problem is that Logan already knows, so the Pact, that's been rebuilding since the Crash, is being prepared for attack at any time, I mean Logan is a great warrior and he knows his tactics, so he also knows he cannot treat this situation lightly. And as Awakened Asura said, he declarated the war against Tyria, because of our actions in Elona and leaving him in the Mists.

Yeah, but this isn't the Pact's fight. Their thing is dragons (that might have to change, but it hasn't yet). Scarlet also declared war on Tyria, and the Pact responded by sending a single airship to investigate after the battle was over, and that only because they heard a dragon wake up.

 

 

[thewaterguy.4796]

Hmmm, if he was going to attack somewhere I would bet Hoelbrak would be his main target, Braham left with a lot of the Norn's best warriors so Hoelbrak is running low on defenses, but as many have pointed out...I'm not sure Joko is playing the conquering game, the forged did a real number on his troops, my gold's on him having another plan and he's trying to keep us busy

[Ardid.7203]

If Joko has a minimum amount of functional brain in his little dead head, he'll infiltrate and seize Rata Sum first. Specifically the Asura Gates control center. That way he'll be the only one free to open portals and teleport his forces around in big numbers.

I don't think Asura even expect to be attacked in their house. The failure on Inquest security, leading to give teleport tech to the Awakened is a MAJOR breach for their entire status, military, cultural and scientific, something so extremely unbalancing, dangerous and humiliating that I would qualify it as the single most horrible thing to happen to the Asura since Primordus.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> If Joko has a minimum amount of functional brain in his little dead head, he'll infiltrate and seize Rata Sum first. Specifically the Asura Gates control center. That way he'll be the only one free to open portals and teleport his forces around in big numbers.

> I don't think Asura even expect to be attacked in their house. The failure on Inquest security, leading to give teleport tech to the Awakened is a MAJOR breach for their entire status, military, cultural and scientific, something so extremely unbalancing, dangerous and humiliating that I would qualify it as the single most horrible thing to happen to the Asura since Primordus.

 

Agreed. But it's not because he is stupid, he just knows that all Tyria is more or less controled by Asura's tech like waypoints and portals. It was very intelligent to use the Inquest for his purpose.

[Torolan.5816]

I suspect asura are more open to turn traitor at some point anyway. If the scientific program is big enough, morale or old allegiances has no room for them.

 

I also can´t really share the point of view that the black citadel is hard to attack. It is heavily armed and fortified, but its legions are a bunch of grassroot militia under a single flag and not a full, trained to walk and fight army like the seraph. Charr who lose their warband sink both in morale and regard of their former comrades, and the benefit of laying together largely decimated units into one new unit is a point of view that is contested among military leaders since basically forever, so charr would be their own worst enemies in this question. Their main point of defense is probably that they make really bad neighbors(raiders and junkyarders) and don´t have much worth conquering anyway(flintlock level gunpowder, animal training, cat food, litter sand ^^ ) so they are a bad target by the lack of something rather than the employment of something.

Still it would be a bad place to attack right now. Hostilities with humans have basically been ended with the death of Caudecus, so they are not hard pressed on many fronts anymore and could throw their hillbilie troopers against the undead.

 

The grove and Hoelbrak are a little bit wildcardish in defensive and offensive capabilities, so it seems unlikely Joko would attack there first.

 

Divities reach has Queen Jenna and the seraph. I would still rank it as high priority because of that, Joko surely can´t stand the thought that there could be someone more powerful than him. I can see him attacking and taking a beating there.

[Ardid.7203]

Charr are three full, trained to walk and fight armies...

Queen Jenna and the Seraph are only important to humans, really. Since Joko is also a human, as are his awakened, yes, It is very likely he sees Divinity's Reach as a main objective for conquest.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Charr are three full, trained to walk and fight armies...

> Queen Jenna and the Seraph are only important to humans, really. Since Joko is also a human, as are his awakened, yes, It is very likely he sees Divinity's Reach as a main objective for conquest.

 

Charr are not an united and standing army. Only because you call yourself legion does neither make yourself Roman or as organized as a legion. Would you grade paramilitary forces that love to patrol the woods and wait for the Russians to attack the USA as a real army? Contrary to the belief of these people, they are only dangerous when they fight as guerilla forces. Even when they have an old howitzer standing around somewhere these guys are toast in the open field.

 

Edit: after thinking a little bit about it, it would be a city combat and therefore good terrain for a skirmisher force.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> If Joko has a minimum amount of functional brain in his little dead head, he'll infiltrate and seize Rata Sum first. Specifically the Asura Gates control center. That way he'll be the only one free to open portals and teleport his forces around in big numbers.

 

That's not how asura gates work.

 

Normal asura gates - not like the ones somehow created nearly a decade ago even though such technology's prototype was fundamentally world-changing half a decade ago which Joko already has access to - requires *both* sides to be attuned to each other.

 

In other words, any city can cut off gate access so long as one side of the gate is misaligned.

 

Of course, when misalignment happens, we get potential mishaps like the gate to Fractals of the Mists - that's how we first got access to that area, after all. The Consortium tried to attune a gate in LA to the gate on Southsun Cove, without knowing the latter had never been finished being made. This attempt resulted in an anomaly that connected the gate in LA to the gate in the fractal copy of Dessa's lab.

 

What this means, ultimately, is that Divinity's Reach can connect to Lion's Arch, The Grove, Hoelbrak, Ebonhawke, or elsewhere without Rata Sum's assistance. Though due to the asura's greediness they ensure that only the gatekeeper asura on task knows how to run those specific gates (and know the schedules for swapping attunement - as presented in NPC dialogue in DR, as well as Ghosts of Ascalon novel, the cities connect to each other already, but on a limited schedule; after the events of GoA, a second asura gate was funded in DR so that the older one in Rurikton could permanently connect to Ebonhawke, the new one, placed in the Upper City, connects to LA, Rata Sum, and The Grove regularly).

 

So taking down Rata Sum would do absolutely nothing to the asura gate network.

 

Of course, if we were talking asura gates during GW1's time period, you'd be correct. But unlike the Flame Legion, the asura learned from their mistake of having a permanently attuned gate network - once the Central Transfer Chamber fell, the asura gate network was almost completely compromised. So they make sure that such wouldn't happen again - even if the new gate network hub (Rata Sum) fell, the network would still work fine.

[Rodzynald.5897]

I bet Joko would love to tap some of those norn corpses. Imagine the boost to his troops, that would be actually terrifying if Anet decided to stay true to strength and combat capabilities of the norn race in lore terms. Just as they were introduced in EoTN.

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"Rodzynald.5897" said:

> I bet Joko would love to tap some of those norn corpses. Imagine the boost to his troops, that would be actually terrifying if Anet decided to stay true to strength and combat capabilities of the norn race in lore terms. Just as they were introduced in EoTN.

 

I wonder how a norn would feel with becoming an awakened? Norn dislike normal necromancy because you ruin someone elses legend to further your own, but normal necromancy also turns you into a mindless shambling husk, Awakened on the other hand are quite intelligent though...

[videoboy.4162]

Instead of spies, couldn't Joko have just started snatching various members of the Risen? Especially after they became Unchained? It wouldn't take much effort on his part to cross over to Orr and grab some and Zhaitan managed to raise members from every important group in central Tyria, excluding Sylvari. That's a ton of usual information right there.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

It depends on whether he'd be able to get them to cooperate. There's no way of telling whether or not Risen can be Awakened, at least not until the game decides to touch upon it.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > @"Rodzynald.5897" said:

> > I bet Joko would love to tap some of those norn corpses. Imagine the boost to his troops, that would be actually terrifying if Anet decided to stay true to strength and combat capabilities of the norn race in lore terms. Just as they were introduced in EoTN.

>

> I wonder how a norn would feel with becoming an awakened? Norn dislike normal necromancy because you ruin someone elses legend to further your own, but normal necromancy also turns you into a mindless shambling husk, Awakened on the other hand are quite intelligent though...

 

Depends on what or on whom necromancy is used. Havroun of Raven is a necromancer but the art of this magic is rather meant for guidance and perservance to the afterlife in norn culture. Anyway, I would be more than happy to see an awakened norn confused about his/her forced allegiance to Joko.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"videoboy.4162" said:

> Instead of spies, couldn't Joko have just started snatching various members of the Risen? Especially after they became Unchained? It wouldn't take much effort on his part to cross over to Orr and grab some and Zhaitan managed to raise members from every important group in central Tyria, excluding Sylvari. That's a ton of usual information right there.

 

Most risen are mindless, so they'd be useless. He'd have to at least grab a weak lieutenant. But there'd be no reason they'd cooperate - even post-Zhaitan's death, those who had any amount of intelligence remained loyal to Zhaitan and his cause, acting as if Zhaitan would return.

 

On top of that, they'd not know anything about Mordremoth in the current era since Mordy rose well after Zhaitan's death.

[videoboy.4162]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > Instead of spies, couldn't Joko have just started snatching various members of the Risen? Especially after they became Unchained? It wouldn't take much effort on his part to cross over to Orr and grab some and Zhaitan managed to raise members from every important group in central Tyria, excluding Sylvari. That's a ton of usual information right there.

>

> Most risen are mindless, so they'd be useless. He'd have to at least grab a weak lieutenant. But there'd be no reason they'd cooperate - even post-Zhaitan's death, those who had any amount of intelligence remained loyal to Zhaitan and his cause, acting as if Zhaitan would return.

>

> On top of that, they'd not know anything about Mordremoth in the current era since Mordy rose well after Zhaitan's death.

 

That's not what mindless means.

 

Zhaitan always seemed to be able to absorb the knowledge of the people he raised and Joko has shown to be able to absorb at least small amount. All he'd need to do would kill off a few Pact members during the Mordremoth activity and piece together any new information on their part. It seems like a far simpler answer than trying to figure out how he'd get spies into Central Tyria to gain some much information AND get it back with no one the wiser.

 

I do wish the story was a bit more clear on just how thorough Joko's powers/skills are.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > > Instead of spies, couldn't Joko have just started snatching various members of the Risen? Especially after they became Unchained? It wouldn't take much effort on his part to cross over to Orr and grab some and Zhaitan managed to raise members from every important group in central Tyria, excluding Sylvari. That's a ton of usual information right there.

> >

> > Most risen are mindless, so they'd be useless. He'd have to at least grab a weak lieutenant. But there'd be no reason they'd cooperate - even post-Zhaitan's death, those who had any amount of intelligence remained loyal to Zhaitan and his cause, acting as if Zhaitan would return.

> >

> > On top of that, they'd not know anything about Mordremoth in the current era since Mordy rose well after Zhaitan's death.

>

> That's not what mindless means.

>

> Zhaitan always seemed to be able to absorb the knowledge of the people he raised and Joko has shown to be able to absorb at least small amount. All he'd need to do would kill off a few Pact members during the Mordremoth activity and piece together any new information on their part. It seems like a far simpler answer than trying to figure out how he'd get spies into Central Tyria to gain some much information AND get it back with no one the wiser.

>

> I do wish the story was a bit more clear on just how thorough Joko's powers/skills are.

 

Where was it even *hinted* that Joko could absorb even the tiniest fraction of knowledge of those he raised? I've never seen such so if there is something, I'd love to know.

 

I'm pretty sure however that if this was true he wouldn't have needed to threaten Taimi with undeath to get her to teach him how to operate the holographic walls and asura gates in Fahranur given that he had an army of Awakened Asura who worked that technology. The fact he needed Taimi proves that he couldn't get that information out of the other asura before, during, or post-Awakening.

 

This shows that any information he would get out of Awakened is done via post-Awakening interrogation (given that he can command them to do anything - with only one exception - this is very likely) and not during the process of making them Awakened. But this shows to be an unreliable process as proven by the aforementioned Fahranur dialogue and situation.

 

We do know that he can make Awakened who remember their past - Koss Dejarin and Tahlkora are proof of this - but at the same time we know there are Awakened who have forgotten who they were when alive, whether intentionally or not is unknown, as proven by ambient dialogue in The Bone Palace (where two guards are talking about how things will go back to normal when Joko returns, and one asks the other who they were before being Awakened, to be told they forgot and asked the same who replies with the same answer). If this wasn't an intentional event, then not all Awakened can tell Joko what he would want, which explains why Joko would want Taimi to be alive to tell him, besides the whole "watch Taimi die" (honestly, having to fight an Awakened Taimi would be just as horrifying from Joko's viewpoint, I'm sure).

 

Also, Zhaitan isn't unique in "absorbing" the knowledge of the people he corrupted - every Elder Dragon has this hive mind with their minions. They receive the Elder Dragon's will, and the Elder Dragon receives their knowledge. We see this happening with destroyers, icebrood, and branded and are told such with risen. It isn't an aspect of necromancy that gives this mental link, but one of the common aspects of what "dragon corruption" instills.

[videoboy.4162]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > > > Instead of spies, couldn't Joko have just started snatching various members of the Risen? Especially after they became Unchained? It wouldn't take much effort on his part to cross over to Orr and grab some and Zhaitan managed to raise members from every important group in central Tyria, excluding Sylvari. That's a ton of usual information right there.

> > >

> > > Most risen are mindless, so they'd be useless. He'd have to at least grab a weak lieutenant. But there'd be no reason they'd cooperate - even post-Zhaitan's death, those who had any amount of intelligence remained loyal to Zhaitan and his cause, acting as if Zhaitan would return.

> > >

> > > On top of that, they'd not know anything about Mordremoth in the current era since Mordy rose well after Zhaitan's death.

> >

> > That's not what mindless means.

> >

> > Zhaitan always seemed to be able to absorb the knowledge of the people he raised and Joko has shown to be able to absorb at least small amount. All he'd need to do would kill off a few Pact members during the Mordremoth activity and piece together any new information on their part. It seems like a far simpler answer than trying to figure out how he'd get spies into Central Tyria to gain some much information AND get it back with no one the wiser.

> >

> > I do wish the story was a bit more clear on just how thorough Joko's powers/skills are.

>

> Where was it even *hinted* that Joko could absorb even the tiniest fraction of knowledge of those he raised? I've never seen such so if there is something, I'd love to know.

>

> I'm pretty sure however that if this was true he wouldn't have needed to threaten Taimi with undeath to get her to teach him how to operate the holographic walls and asura gates in Fahranur given that he had an army of Awakened Asura who worked that technology. The fact he needed Taimi proves that he couldn't get that information out of the other asura before, during, or post-Awakening.

>

> This shows that any information he would get out of Awakened is done via post-Awakening interrogation (given that he can command them to do anything - with only one exception - this is very likely) and not during the process of making them Awakened. But this shows to be an unreliable process as proven by the aforementioned Fahranur dialogue and situation.

>

> We do know that he can make Awakened who remember their past - Koss Dejarin and Tahlkora are proof of this - but at the same time we know there are Awakened who have forgotten who they were when alive, whether intentionally or not is unknown, as proven by ambient dialogue in The Bone Palace (where two guards are talking about how things will go back to normal when Joko returns, and one asks the other who they were before being Awakened, to be told they forgot and asked the same who replies with the same answer). If this wasn't an intentional event, then not all Awakened can tell Joko what he would want, which explains why Joko would want Taimi to be alive to tell him, besides the whole "watch Taimi die" (honestly, having to fight an Awakened Taimi would be just as horrifying from Joko's viewpoint, I'm sure).

>

> Also, Zhaitan isn't unique in "absorbing" the knowledge of the people he corrupted - every Elder Dragon has this hive mind with their minions. They receive the Elder Dragon's will, and the Elder Dragon receives their knowledge. We see this happening with destroyers, icebrood, and branded and are told such with risen. It isn't an aspect of necromancy that gives this mental link, but one of the common aspects of what "dragon corruption" instills.

 

That's my bad. I didn't mean to use the word "absorb" in regards to Joko, just Zhaitan (I also know he isn't unique in absorbing info). I was thinking the same as what you explained, he just orders them to give what information they can recall after Awakening. My theory was that, after Awakening them or otherwise gaining control over the Risen Pact Members (or even snatching some living ones from Orr to turn into Awakened) he just forced them to give him information.