Is Fractals changed? Extremely difficult today.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

They could solve struggling by removal of mechanics and breakbars and make everything weaker and more vurnable with lower health

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> They could solve struggling by removal of mechanics and breakbars and make everything weaker and more vurnable with lower health

 

That is exactly what we don't want to do.

 

Our metrics are showing Twilight Oasis as an outlier right now, along with Shattered Observatory, with long completion times and above average failure rates, with the average failure taking 45 minutes, meaning people beat their head against the fractal for 45 minutes before giving up. This change isn't going to nerf the difficulty or change the experience at all for experienced groups. All it does is make it more accessible to learn and less frustrating when you have some bad pugs that keep dying on Balthazar.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > They could solve struggling by removal of mechanics and breakbars and make everything weaker and more vurnable with lower health

>

>

>

> All it does is make it more accessible to learn and less frustrating when you have some bad pugs that keep dying on Balthazar.

 

Can you elaborate - isn't that a good thing? Being more accessible to learn is precisely what some of us want

 

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > They could solve struggling by removal of mechanics and breakbars and make everything weaker and more vurnable with lower health

> >

> >

> >

> > All it does is make it more accessible to learn and less frustrating when you have some bad pugs that keep dying on Balthazar.

>

> Can you elaborate - isn't that a good thing? Being more accessible to learn is precisely what some of us want

>

 

When I say "This Change" I am referring to the checkpoint after Melandru, which will make it more accessible to learn since you will get to retry the hard bits without slogging through the easy bits over and over. If I was to remove mechanics and make everything weaker, that does more than making it more accessible, it makes it less enjoyable for experienced players. The checkpoint does not do that.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

This is similar to what we do in the Molten Boss fractal, where if you get past the first phase and wipe, you get to start at the last phase.

[Vinceman.4572]

" the average failure taking 45 minutes"

 

So much to non-meta pugs need 40 minutes to beat daily t4 consistently. Holy crxp!

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> " the average failure taking 45 minutes"

>

> So much to non-meta pugs need 40 minutes to beat daily t4 consistently. Holy crxp!

 

You do know what an "Outlier" is, right?

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > They could solve struggling by removal of mechanics and breakbars and make everything weaker and more vurnable with lower health

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > All it does is make it more accessible to learn and less frustrating when you have some bad pugs that keep dying on Balthazar.

> >

> > Can you elaborate - isn't that a good thing? Being more accessible to learn is precisely what some of us want

> >

>

> When I say "This Change" I am referring to the checkpoint after Melandru, which will make it more accessible to learn since you will get to retry the hard bits without slogging through the easy bits over and over. If I was to remove mechanics and make everything weaker, that does more than making it more accessible, it makes it less enjoyable for experienced players. The checkpoint does not do that.

 

Ok I understand a bit better now, thanks.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > " the average failure taking 45 minutes"

> >

> > So much to non-meta pugs need 40 minutes to beat daily t4 consistently. Holy crxp!

>

> You do know what an "Outlier" is, right?

 

yes, of course but TO is the outlier not the 45 minutes of average failure.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > Tell me that this is a premature April's fool.

> >

> > Come on! Amala is easy if you get used to the mechanics.

>

> Same could be said about quantum mechanics ^^

>

> T4 fractals are not easy, the fact that many people cannot do them or fail or struggle while doing them proves that they are not easy content. If they were easy, we wouldn't have this discussion. We would have threads where people ask for more challenging content.

 

To be fair, if you can't finish T4 is because you didn't prepare.

If you have AR, Food, Utilities and Fractal potions, plus a decent enough build (not even meta). If you played T1-T3 to learn mechanics, T4 won't be much of a change.

BUT if you buy AR and jump into T4 without at least having someone experienced to walk you through it. Then yeah you'll fail.

[Vinceman.4572]

...and quantum mechanics is easy if you read & learn properly.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > " the average failure taking 45 minutes"

> > >

> > > So much to non-meta pugs need 40 minutes to beat daily t4 consistently. Holy crxp!

> >

> > You do know what an "Outlier" is, right?

>

> yes, of course but TO is the outlier not the 45 minutes of average failure.

 

No, Twilight Oasis is where players leave after 45 minutes on average.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> No, Twilight Oasis is where players leave after 45 minutes on average.

 

Yes, that's what I was saying. People leave after 45 on average failing there so the average 40 minute run isn't true at all only for T4 dailies if TO is not part of it.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

The average success time for TO is also second highest, currently right below Shattered Observatory. We want it to be in line with most of the other fractals.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Dunno whether the checkpoint was really needed, but then it won't matter anyway to a groups that knows how to play the encounter. Dwayna and Balthazar are the real killers, not Lyssa and Melandru. As a side note, could you maybe have a look at the lighting on the balconies, Ben? It's highly annoying that ground AoEs (especially Balth/Dwayna priests) are close to invisible when playing on medium to high settings.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> Dunno whether the checkpoint was really needed, but then it won't matter anyway to a groups that knows how to play the encounter. Dwayna and Balthazar are the real killers, not Lyssa and Melandru. As a side note, could you maybe have a look at the lighting on the balconies, Ben? It's highly annoying that ground AoEs (especially Balth/Dwayna priests) are close to invisible when playing on medium to high settings.

 

Not a trivial fix I am afraid, but I as a condi berserker I am acutely aware of the issue.

[Malediktus.9250]

at least add T5 and T6 fractals if you want T4 to be easy. Currently T4 fractals are a joke and feel easier than lvl 50 fractal before HoT

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> at least add T5 and T6 fractals if you want T4 to be easy. Currently T4 fractals are a joke and feel easier than lvl 50 fractal before HoT

Must be subjective, because my memories are telling me something exactly opposite. I don't remember anything then that was on difficulty level comparable with current t4 nightmare, observatory or oasis, much less harder than those.

 

[Malediktus.9250]

Mai Trin lvl 50 was definitely harder than Mai Trin t4 now. Feels like she hits like a wet noodle compared to the old days despite being about 50 levels higher

Cant compare the new fractals because they did not exist back then, but I they are probably not harder than the lvl 50 in the old days. The challenge modes maybe like an imaginary lvl 60.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

 

> Our metrics are showing Twilight Oasis as an outlier right now, along with Shattered Observatory, with long completion times and above average failure rates, with the average failure taking 45 minutes, meaning people beat their head against the fractal for 45 minutes before giving up.

Do you know for a fact it's the end-boss? Imo the trash mobs are the biggest annoyance in the fractal. Not their knock-down or anything, but their aggro range and leash range. It's unnatural and they follow you everywhere, forcing you to kill them if you don't stealth-skip

[Eramonster.2718]

It's expected for S.O and T.O takes more time than other fractals...more like a dungeon run than a fractal blitz.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> Do you know for a fact it's the end-boss? Imo the trash mobs are the biggest annoyance in the fractal. Not their knock-down or anything, but their aggro range and leash range. It's unnatural and they follow you everywhere, forcing you to kill them if you don't stealth-skip.

 

T.O lv87 is extremely long especially for inexperienced group (really wish the players will inform that they're new to something when they join). Pulling mobs to bosses (I usually don't mind but prefer not to w mistlock vindicators), players left behind because of mistlock hamstrung, and the roof navigation (those inexperienced usually will not be able to find their way back if they fall off and the streets is crawling with sunspears).

 

> Mai Trin lvl 50 was definitely harder than Mai Trin t4 now.

 

:smiley: Same goes for Snowblind 86(toxic trail) vs 93(vindicators).

 

 

[Zlater.6789]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

>

> > Our metrics are showing Twilight Oasis as an outlier right now, along with Shattered Observatory, with long completion times and above average failure rates, with the average failure taking 45 minutes, meaning people beat their head against the fractal for 45 minutes before giving up.

> Do you know for a fact it's the end-boss? Imo the trash mobs are the biggest annoyance in the fractal. Not their knock-down or anything, but their aggro range and leash range. It's unnatural and they follow you everywhere, forcing you to kill them if you don't stealth-skip

 

agreed, this is super frustrating

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > No, Twilight Oasis is where players leave after 45 minutes on average.

>

> Yes, that's what I was saying. People leave after 45 on average failing there so the average 40 minute run isn't true at all only for T4 dailies if TO is not part of it.

 

No, that is not what you said, you said:

 

> yes, of course but TO is the outlier not the 45 minutes of average failure.

 

The 45 minutes average for fails **makes** it an outlier. Also, this information doesn't tell us anything about success rates and their total time (we got that info in a later post). Even if only 1% of groups failed Oasis, you could say the average time before people leave is 45 minutes. It doesn't even tell if meta groups fail or non-meta groups fail. Your conclusions cannot be drawn from the information we got.

[Eramonster.2718]

> .... way more important - was not part of my conclusions. He/they (Ben/Anet) change/s it so there must be a valid reason (for him/them) to do it although I don't agree to that change. Even if it's only 1 group failing the average failure time would be 45 minutes.

 

Agree, alas. 45mins...included time to look for replacement for players etc.? The new fractals S.O and T.O is actually pretty fun. I think more players would've accepted the content if it's a seperate entity challenge like a "dungeon". Could be wrong, but from my understanding of dev point of view; an outlier for fractal because of time constraint(?)

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> Mai Trin lvl 50 was definitely harder than Mai Trin t4 now. Feels like she hits like a wet noodle compared to the old days despite being about 50 levels higher

> Cant compare the new fractals because they did not exist back then, but I they are probably not harder than the lvl 50 in the old days. The challenge modes maybe like an imaginary lvl 60.

 

That has more to do with elite specialisations than with the encounter. If you want it harder, use core professions only. No fancy chrono for example. Nor a druid or any kind of healer.