Is Fractals changed? Extremely difficult today.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Ben specifically said that T2 fractals are supposed to be similar to core Tyria dungeons. And they are. Ben further said that T4 are supposed to be the hardest 5-person content _in the game_, behind fractal CM, which are close to raid difficulty.

> He also said, in that very same quote, the one that has been already posted in this thread, that t4, while remaining the hardest 5-person content in the game (below CM's, of course), should be "notably easier than raids". So, basically, only CMs should approach (but never equal) raid difficulty. Everything else should be easier.

>

>

 

If you did raids you'd see that t4s are nothing like raids. And i personally dont see an issue with cms being on par if not harder than some wings. Simply because w4 is a joke doesnt mean cms should be help by that low standart of a raid.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > Fractals are hard...if you run with the wrong players. Otherwise they are easy.

> >

> > To answer to the OP: No nothing has changed. It's the players you meet from time to time. I reran several fracs including 53 and 87 since you opened that thread. It's definitely the players.

>

> wow what a wise statement, almost like Paris Hilton saying "Poor people should stop being poor"

 

No, the OP had the impression that something could have been changed via patch (hidden change or anything like that). But this wasn't the case. It's very likely he got bad pugs so it felt kind of changed. I also think that way from time to time if I'm in a bad group like yesterday when I had not much time to play and joined the next best "T4 dailies".

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Ben specifically said that T2 fractals are supposed to be similar to core Tyria dungeons. And they are. Ben further said that T4 are supposed to be the hardest 5-person content _in the game_, behind fractal CM, which are close to raid difficulty.

> He also said, in that very same quote, the one that has been already posted in this thread, that t4, while remaining the hardest 5-person content in the game (below CM's, of course), should be "notably easier than raids". So, basically, only CMs should approach (but never equal) raid difficulty. Everything else should be easier.

>

>

 

And thus far the only thing that comes close is 100 CM.

 

So please explain why just because a fight has mechanics people instantly go crazy and claim its a raid ? I'd also like some very real explanations as to why people feel compelled to have T4 nerfed to the floor when they already have a difficulty tier meant for them at T1-T3. There's 0 reason to remove the difficulty of T4 for a few complainers.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Ben specifically said that T2 fractals are supposed to be similar to core Tyria dungeons. And they are. Ben further said that T4 are supposed to be the hardest 5-person content _in the game_, behind fractal CM, which are close to raid difficulty.

> > He also said, in that very same quote, the one that has been already posted in this thread, that t4, while remaining the hardest 5-person content in the game (below CM's, of course), should be "notably easier than raids". So, basically, only CMs should approach (but never equal) raid difficulty. Everything else should be easier.

> >

> >

>

> If you did raids you'd see that t4s are nothing like raids. And i personally dont see an issue with cms being on par if not harder than some wings. Simply because w4 is a joke doesnt mean cms should be help by that low standart of a raid.

I agree.

There is also no reason to not add difficulty tiers above t4. The fractal level system should have infinite levels (only capped by the max amount of AR you can afford) to become meaningful.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Ben specifically said that T2 fractals are supposed to be similar to core Tyria dungeons. And they are. Ben further said that T4 are supposed to be the hardest 5-person content _in the game_, behind fractal CM, which are close to raid difficulty.

> He also said, in that very same quote, the one that has been already posted in this thread, that t4, while remaining the hardest 5-person content in the game (below CM's, of course), should be "notably easier than raids". So, basically, only CMs should approach (but never equal) raid difficulty. Everything else should be easier.

>

>

 

And he said specifically that goal was being met, that specifically TO (what some consider to be the hardest T4) is notably easier than raids.

 

But you took my response out of context: I was replying to someone who had misquoted Ben's comments to support their personal preference. And then misquoted themself in response to someone else's clarification.

 

The short version is (my paraphrase):

* T2 fractals are designed to be similar in difficulty to what dungeons were originally.

* T4 should be the hardest instance content in the game, below CM; it should be notably easier than raids

* CM fractals should approach raid difficulty.

* Ben is confident those goals are met.

[Zaxares.5419]

Ironically, I feel that people struggle with TO precisely BECAUSE people insist on skipping the mobs. There's always somebody (often multiple somebodies) who gets hit, gets overrun because of Hamstrung, goes down, and now the group has Vindicators to deal with as well. If you have a healer/boon bot, you can deal with this, but it's not guaranteed in a random PUG. Conversely, if people take the time to clear mobs before tackling the Sandbinders/bosses, it's often smooth sailing.

 

If ANet finds that people are completing encounters like TO and SO too quickly, maybe they should look at ENFORCING mob kills. Put in more gates that you can't pass until you kill the preceding mobs. Players get loot for killing the enemies, so you can't complain that you get nothing for doing it. In fact, I recall there was a post some years ago complaining about the price for Amber Quantic Dipoles being so high, and the devs basically replied saying "This is your fault. Because those items drop from normal mobs in Fractals and everybody is skipping the mobs."

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Ben specifically said that T2 fractals are supposed to be similar to core Tyria dungeons. And they are. Ben further said that T4 are supposed to be the hardest 5-person content _in the game_, behind fractal CM, which are close to raid difficulty.

> > He also said, in that very same quote, the one that has been already posted in this thread, that t4, while remaining the hardest 5-person content in the game (below CM's, of course), should be "notably easier than raids". So, basically, only CMs should approach (but never equal) raid difficulty. Everything else should be easier.

> >

> >

>

> And he said specifically that goal was being met, that specifically TO (what some consider to be the hardest T4) is notably easier than raids.

Exactly. The goals are being met, so using this quote in support of making fractals more difficult, equal to raid level (which is what started this subthread) is completely misreading it.

 

> @"Zaxares.5419" said:

> Ironically, I feel that people struggle with TO precisely BECAUSE people insist on skipping the mobs. There's always somebody (often multiple somebodies) who gets hit, gets overrun because of Hamstrung, goes down, and now the group has Vindicators to deal with as well. If you have a healer/boon bot, you can deal with this, but it's not guaranteed in a random PUG. Conversely, if people take the time to clear mobs before tackling the Sandbinders/bosses, it's often smooth sailing.

People are failing on the last boss (usually dwayna ol balth phases), the mobs before just make the fractal longer.

 

> If ANet finds that people are completing encounters like TO and SO too quickly

They aren't. TO acording to devs takes already too long, both for those that succeeed, and those that fail.

 

> @"Zaxares.5419" said:

>In fact, I recall there was a post some years ago complaining about the price for Amber Quantic Dipoles being so high, and the devs basically replied saying "This is your fault. Because those items drop from normal mobs in Fractals and everybody is skipping the mobs."

Yeah, it only drops from normal mobs... in T1. Most fractal runners currently don't even do T1's. So, skipping practically doesn't even factor in it.

(you can see that by comparing dipole to the prices of the next tier drops, which are much, much lower)

 

[Eramonster.2718]

From Tier 1 - Tier 4, Level 1 to Level 100.... I think its fair for something close to the end 90+ to be challenging... It is a ladder after all. Tho I do notice the new fractals is slightly closer to a dungeon (or a story that leads to a final boss).

 

> @"Zaxares.5419" said:

> Ironically, I feel that people struggle with TO precisely BECAUSE people insist on skipping the mobs. There's always somebody (often multiple somebodies) who gets hit, gets overrun because of Hamstrung, goes down, and now the group has Vindicators to deal with as well. If you have a healer/boon bot, you can deal with this, but it's not guaranteed in a random PUG. Conversely, if people take the time to clear mobs before tackling the Sandbinders/bosses, it's often smooth sailing.

 

:+1: Can be pulled through especially if the group is organized, but with PuGs it's best to work out a clear plan.

Unless one is telepathic, and the other is a mind reader. :smiley:

 

 

[Faaris.8013]

So I tried to get Twilight Oasis T4 done with pick up groups for an hour. I used my farm account and didn't expect to succeed, will do it with my guild mates in the evening. I wanted to get why people fail, and I think mechanics is only one reason. The second, connected reason, is that they use extremely defensive builds. I was in 3 different pugs, with changing members. I play Power DD, and for pugging this fractal I sacrifice damage for survivability. I use Invigorating Precision, life stealing food and a valkyrie staff instead of berserker. I have 13435 health with that build and decent self-healing, but it costs dps.

 

However, even with that build, I always did the highest dps in all groups. There were DHs, Weavers, Warriors, Scourges, you name it. In one group was another DD who did 50% of my dps. And it wasn't like only little more dps on average, it was quite visible. I'm not a super player, and those classes usually out-dps me (except weaver ^^).

 

I'm convinced these players do more dps in other fractals, so my guess is that they changed how they usually play and instead went full survivability. So much that they hit like wet noodles. I have seen stuff in this fight today that I've never seen before, like the swarms of trash mobs at the (I think) third phase. I have never seen so many shock waves from Amala before (I think the Aerialist achievement is bugged, I certainly had enough opportunity to dodge at least 3 waves in a single fight, yet didn't get it). Fact is, our total dps was a joke, and we encountered much more mechanics than we should. People died at the very first phase, before the fight even starts, when the portals pop up. Usually you have to find Amala 2 times, max 3. Today we had to find her 5 or 6 times because we did so little damage that the whole phase was extended. There is nothing there that hits you, but stepping into a portal gives you conditions, and the longer the phase, the more portals you might step into.

 

The fights took much longer than necessary, more cluster bombs that cover the whole arena where you have to use the special key, more of everything that can potentially kill you. People hurt themselves by playing so passively and defensive that it backfires. They think that adding more Vitality or even toughness or healing power is helping, even if it costs dps. It's been long proven in this game that this won't work, that you cannot outlast mobs. In a small dosis, it does help, that's why I have that Valkyrie staff. It gives me some more health and has little to no effect on my dps because I have more than enough crit chance usually. But if you go full Nomad or Soldiers and believe that it will help you survive, you are ill advised. I don't know what gear exactly these dps classes use against Amala, but it certainly has lots of Vitality and Toughness and little that gives damage.

 

You can change whatever you want with that fight, but if people keep doing this, they will fail again and again.

[Despond.2174]

I am noticing a significant improvement with TO pugs, the last T4 TOs have been one shot and today a 2 shot. The key is to get into a group that's doing all dailies, you'll be able to tell nearly right away if it's a solid group that follows mechanics. Give it another month or so and TO will be pretty common to 1-2 shot. When you break the last boss down, it's actually quite simple, just not forgiving if you keep messing up because the dmg/knockbacks snowball easily.

 

For T4 we are clearing mobs along the correct path for the most part, I think overall it just makes it quicker.

[Eramonster.2718]

Same here, 1 shotted T.O. Had some rare class appearance today, rarely get to team up with warriors & weavers in LFG. Could be the patch...

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

>faster to fail and faster to practice.

 

I love that. It almost sounds like inspirational words to tell people who quit the group after the first wipe.

[Faaris.8013]

Guild run + pug healer, very fast and smooth. We started with 99cm, so we got a healer that knew what he's doing. No downed states at Amala, a few before, but only because we went yolo at a couple of sand guys. The boss doesn't take longer than 5 minutes when people know their business.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

I don't believe people change their builds at all. I think the problem is they try to manually run out of every AoE - sacrificing all their damage in the process, and saving their dodges and SAK for some time of dire need that's already upon them and killed them before they remember to use them.

 

I consider myself and my condi soulbeast to be mediocre at best, and yet I am usually the top DPS and the last to die on Amala. I run SB3 with Light On Your Feet, which rewards you for dodging frequently, and brute forces you to identify the front and back of the target - and by extension to slowly learn to parse what's happening on the ground around you. And what I see in my PUGs is a lot of people with their feet glued to the ground and then dead.

 

These skills aren't Grandma's bone china teacups; they're truckstop coffee mugs. You're meant to spam them pretty much on cooldown. That's why they have such short cooldowns.