ReaverKane.7598 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't even think he can make that argument in the first place. He thinks the game is being hacked, but in reality, the unencrypted data that is in transit through the computer's memory is picked up. No game file is touched or analyzed in the process. The computer's memory is outside the client's realm, that's why Anet cannot know if that data has been read or not. It's like handing over an unsealed letter to your friend with the task to deliver it to someone else, but without reading it. If your friend reads the letter, he doesn't need to hack anything, and you'll never know. Sure, you need some skill/knowledge to read the memory of a computer, but the same goes for the friend who reads the letter. He needs to know the language for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > When Anet decided to move data through the memory like that, they knew it can be read. There's no hacking involved at all. > > > > > > > > > > Gearchecking is aswell an unencrypted data. Not allowing such tool is hypocritical while the other one is allowed. > > > > > > > > Thing is, you can tell other player's damage, even if not accurately, you can tell ho much healing he's handing out. You can't tell his gear without him telling you. That's the difference... Scroll back to the top where i quoted Chris Cleary's definition of what's allowed on these add-ons. > > > > > > You can guess other players dps, you can't read it directly without using 3rd party hack in form of dps meter. As much as you can guess your fellow player's gear considering how low dps he's doing or that he's breaking boss' aggro. > > > > Actually, i can tell you another player's DPS with pretty much the same degree of accuracy as a DPS meter. It just takes a ton more work. But i can do that, and i can explain you how: > > Spawn a golem in fractal's training area. > > Do Damage to it until you get it to ~50% (don't need to be 50% but take note of how much HP it has left). Check your combat log, see how much damage you dealt. > > That damage is = 100-x% of the golem's HP (x being how much it had left). Do it a few times more to get a more accurate picture. > > (You don't kill the golem to estimate it's HP because you don't want to overestimate due to overkill) > > Now you know that golem's HP, numerically. > > > > Ask a guy to kill it, time it. > > Divide the HP you obtained by the time it took him to kill in seconds = That person's Total DPS. > > See, not too hard to do, but convoluted as hell... > > > > Gear check, short of him actually linking it, is something you can't **ever** estimate in-game. > > And that's pretty much Chris Cleary's standpoint, he allows only stuff that can be gathered with combat data in-game. > > It's still estimation or guess, you as a human are incapable of playing, monitoring someone's dps in group and counting all the boons. So dps meter is already doing the job you can't achieve without using it. Literally. Estimation is not the same thing as a guess... Estimation it's a mathematical function, after you repeat it enough times, you can be certain of that mob's HP, within a very acceptable degree. After you know that, knowing how much damage a person does in a period of time is the definition of dps. Also ArcDPS itself only estimates other people's DPS, it's pretty accurate in it's estimations, but it **just** estimates it. You can count all the boons, that's actually easier than getting the DPS of someone... There's literally nothing on a DPS meter that you can't get from looking at a person fighting. It simply allows you to do it with more than 1 person at a time, and way more easily and efficiently. Which is the line Chris Cleary makes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't even think he can make that argument in the first place. He thinks the game is being hacked, but in reality, the unencrypted data that is in transit through the computer's memory is picked up. No game file is touched or analyzed in the process. The computer's memory is outside the client's realm, that's why Anet cannot know if that data has been read or not. It's like handing over an unsealed letter to your friend with the task to deliver it to someone else, but without reading it. If your friend reads the letter, he doesn't need to hack anything, and you'll never know. Sure, you need some skill/knowledge to read the memory of a computer, but the same goes for the friend who reads the letter. He needs to know the language for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Anet decided to move data through the memory like that, they knew it can be read. There's no hacking involved at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gearchecking is aswell an unencrypted data. Not allowing such tool is hypocritical while the other one is allowed. > > > > > > > > > > Thing is, you can tell other player's damage, even if not accurately, you can tell ho much healing he's handing out. You can't tell his gear without him telling you. That's the difference... Scroll back to the top where i quoted Chris Cleary's definition of what's allowed on these add-ons. > > > > > > > > You can guess other players dps, you can't read it directly without using 3rd party hack in form of dps meter. As much as you can guess your fellow player's gear considering how low dps he's doing or that he's breaking boss' aggro. > > > > > > Actually, i can tell you another player's DPS with pretty much the same degree of accuracy as a DPS meter. It just takes a ton more work. But i can do that, and i can explain you how: > > > Spawn a golem in fractal's training area. > > > Do Damage to it until you get it to ~50% (don't need to be 50% but take note of how much HP it has left). Check your combat log, see how much damage you dealt. > > > That damage is = 100-x% of the golem's HP (x being how much it had left). Do it a few times more to get a more accurate picture. > > > (You don't kill the golem to estimate it's HP because you don't want to overestimate due to overkill) > > > Now you know that golem's HP, numerically. > > > > > > Ask a guy to kill it, time it. > > > Divide the HP you obtained by the time it took him to kill in seconds = That person's Total DPS. > > > See, not too hard to do, but convoluted as hell... > > > > > > Gear check, short of him actually linking it, is something you can't **ever** estimate in-game. > > > And that's pretty much Chris Cleary's standpoint, he allows only stuff that can be gathered with combat data in-game. > > > > It's still estimation or guess, you as a human are incapable of playing, monitoring someone's dps in group and counting all the boons. So dps meter is already doing the job you can't achieve without using it. Literally. > > Estimation is not the same thing as a guess... > > Estimation it's a mathematical function, after you repeat it enough times, you can be certain of that mob's HP, within a very acceptable degree. After you know that, knowing how much damage a person does in a period of time is the definition of dps. > Also ArcDPS itself only estimates other people's DPS, it's pretty accurate in it's estimations, but it **just** estimates it. > > You can count all the boons, that's actually easier than getting the DPS of someone... > There's literally nothing on a DPS meter that you can't get from looking at a person fighting. It simply allows you to do it with more than 1 person at a time, and way more easily and efficiently. Which is the line Chris Cleary makes... > It is impossible for you to do everything that dps meter does at the same time and contribute to the fight. DPS meter is like additional member of your squad counting these numbers for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't even think he can make that argument in the first place. He thinks the game is being hacked, but in reality, the unencrypted data that is in transit through the computer's memory is picked up. No game file is touched or analyzed in the process. The computer's memory is outside the client's realm, that's why Anet cannot know if that data has been read or not. It's like handing over an unsealed letter to your friend with the task to deliver it to someone else, but without reading it. If your friend reads the letter, he doesn't need to hack anything, and you'll never know. Sure, you need some skill/knowledge to read the memory of a computer, but the same goes for the friend who reads the letter. He needs to know the language for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Anet decided to move data through the memory like that, they knew it can be read. There's no hacking involved at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gearchecking is aswell an unencrypted data. Not allowing such tool is hypocritical while the other one is allowed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thing is, you can tell other player's damage, even if not accurately, you can tell ho much healing he's handing out. You can't tell his gear without him telling you. That's the difference... Scroll back to the top where i quoted Chris Cleary's definition of what's allowed on these add-ons. > > > > > > > > > > You can guess other players dps, you can't read it directly without using 3rd party hack in form of dps meter. As much as you can guess your fellow player's gear considering how low dps he's doing or that he's breaking boss' aggro. > > > > > > > > Actually, i can tell you another player's DPS with pretty much the same degree of accuracy as a DPS meter. It just takes a ton more work. But i can do that, and i can explain you how: > > > > Spawn a golem in fractal's training area. > > > > Do Damage to it until you get it to ~50% (don't need to be 50% but take note of how much HP it has left). Check your combat log, see how much damage you dealt. > > > > That damage is = 100-x% of the golem's HP (x being how much it had left). Do it a few times more to get a more accurate picture. > > > > (You don't kill the golem to estimate it's HP because you don't want to overestimate due to overkill) > > > > Now you know that golem's HP, numerically. > > > > > > > > Ask a guy to kill it, time it. > > > > Divide the HP you obtained by the time it took him to kill in seconds = That person's Total DPS. > > > > See, not too hard to do, but convoluted as hell... > > > > > > > > Gear check, short of him actually linking it, is something you can't **ever** estimate in-game. > > > > And that's pretty much Chris Cleary's standpoint, he allows only stuff that can be gathered with combat data in-game. > > > > > > It's still estimation or guess, you as a human are incapable of playing, monitoring someone's dps in group and counting all the boons. So dps meter is already doing the job you can't achieve without using it. Literally. > > > > Estimation is not the same thing as a guess... > > > > Estimation it's a mathematical function, after you repeat it enough times, you can be certain of that mob's HP, within a very acceptable degree. After you know that, knowing how much damage a person does in a period of time is the definition of dps. > > Also ArcDPS itself only estimates other people's DPS, it's pretty accurate in it's estimations, but it **just** estimates it. > > > > You can count all the boons, that's actually easier than getting the DPS of someone... > > There's literally nothing on a DPS meter that you can't get from looking at a person fighting. It simply allows you to do it with more than 1 person at a time, and way more easily and efficiently. Which is the line Chris Cleary makes... > > > > It is impossible for you to do everything that dps meter does at the same time and contribute to the fight. DPS meter is like additional member of your squad counting these numbers for you. Sure, it's dificult to do it live, never said the contrary. But that's not the point, the point is that DPS meter doesn't offer any information that you can't obtain on your own, that's why it's allowed. And that's why Gear checks aren't, because what other people have equipped is **impossible** to see without the use of unauthorized software, or the other person showing you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't even think he can make that argument in the first place. He thinks the game is being hacked, but in reality, the unencrypted data that is in transit through the computer's memory is picked up. No game file is touched or analyzed in the process. The computer's memory is outside the client's realm, that's why Anet cannot know if that data has been read or not. It's like handing over an unsealed letter to your friend with the task to deliver it to someone else, but without reading it. If your friend reads the letter, he doesn't need to hack anything, and you'll never know. Sure, you need some skill/knowledge to read the memory of a computer, but the same goes for the friend who reads the letter. He needs to know the language for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Anet decided to move data through the memory like that, they knew it can be read. There's no hacking involved at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gearchecking is aswell an unencrypted data. Not allowing such tool is hypocritical while the other one is allowed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thing is, you can tell other player's damage, even if not accurately, you can tell ho much healing he's handing out. You can't tell his gear without him telling you. That's the difference... Scroll back to the top where i quoted Chris Cleary's definition of what's allowed on these add-ons. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can guess other players dps, you can't read it directly without using 3rd party hack in form of dps meter. As much as you can guess your fellow player's gear considering how low dps he's doing or that he's breaking boss' aggro. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, i can tell you another player's DPS with pretty much the same degree of accuracy as a DPS meter. It just takes a ton more work. But i can do that, and i can explain you how: > > > > > Spawn a golem in fractal's training area. > > > > > Do Damage to it until you get it to ~50% (don't need to be 50% but take note of how much HP it has left). Check your combat log, see how much damage you dealt. > > > > > That damage is = 100-x% of the golem's HP (x being how much it had left). Do it a few times more to get a more accurate picture. > > > > > (You don't kill the golem to estimate it's HP because you don't want to overestimate due to overkill) > > > > > Now you know that golem's HP, numerically. > > > > > > > > > > Ask a guy to kill it, time it. > > > > > Divide the HP you obtained by the time it took him to kill in seconds = That person's Total DPS. > > > > > See, not too hard to do, but convoluted as hell... > > > > > > > > > > Gear check, short of him actually linking it, is something you can't **ever** estimate in-game. > > > > > And that's pretty much Chris Cleary's standpoint, he allows only stuff that can be gathered with combat data in-game. > > > > > > > > It's still estimation or guess, you as a human are incapable of playing, monitoring someone's dps in group and counting all the boons. So dps meter is already doing the job you can't achieve without using it. Literally. > > > > > > Estimation is not the same thing as a guess... > > > > > > Estimation it's a mathematical function, after you repeat it enough times, you can be certain of that mob's HP, within a very acceptable degree. After you know that, knowing how much damage a person does in a period of time is the definition of dps. > > > Also ArcDPS itself only estimates other people's DPS, it's pretty accurate in it's estimations, but it **just** estimates it. > > > > > > You can count all the boons, that's actually easier than getting the DPS of someone... > > > There's literally nothing on a DPS meter that you can't get from looking at a person fighting. It simply allows you to do it with more than 1 person at a time, and way more easily and efficiently. Which is the line Chris Cleary makes... > > > > > > > It is impossible for you to do everything that dps meter does at the same time and contribute to the fight. DPS meter is like additional member of your squad counting these numbers for you. > > Sure, it's dificult to do it live, never said the contrary. But that's not the point, the point is that DPS meter doesn't offer any information that you can't obtain on your own, that's why it's allowed. And that's why Gear checks aren't, because what other people have equipped is **impossible** to see without the use of unauthorized software, or the other person showing you. Again, it's nothing more but estimate based on your performance. Unless dps meter reads directly numbers from your group members, meaning this is something you can't see as a player. And in the same way you can estimate someon's gear looking at his boon duration, condiduration and ticks or how hard his characters hits and how much damage it can facetank. Gearchecking is at this point exactly the same as dps meter estimates meaning it's a hypocritical decision to allow the latter while pretending the former is satan. 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Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 q: what build/gear are you running? a: that's a toxic question q: we don't want to fail over and over and spend hours on this boss. would you mind switching? a: I refuse on the grounds of toxicity q: I am going to kick you? a: yes you are because I'm being toxic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't even think he can make that argument in the first place. He thinks the game is being hacked, but in reality, the unencrypted data that is in transit through the computer's memory is picked up. No game file is touched or analyzed in the process. The computer's memory is outside the client's realm, that's why Anet cannot know if that data has been read or not. It's like handing over an unsealed letter to your friend with the task to deliver it to someone else, but without reading it. If your friend reads the letter, he doesn't need to hack anything, and you'll never know. Sure, you need some skill/knowledge to read the memory of a computer, but the same goes for the friend who reads the letter. He needs to know the language for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Anet decided to move data through the memory like that, they knew it can be read. There's no hacking involved at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gearchecking is aswell an unencrypted data. Not allowing such tool is hypocritical while the other one is allowed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thing is, you can tell other player's damage, even if not accurately, you can tell ho much healing he's handing out. You can't tell his gear without him telling you. That's the difference... Scroll back to the top where i quoted Chris Cleary's definition of what's allowed on these add-ons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can guess other players dps, you can't read it directly without using 3rd party hack in form of dps meter. As much as you can guess your fellow player's gear considering how low dps he's doing or that he's breaking boss' aggro. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, i can tell you another player's DPS with pretty much the same degree of accuracy as a DPS meter. It just takes a ton more work. But i can do that, and i can explain you how: > > > > > > Spawn a golem in fractal's training area. > > > > > > Do Damage to it until you get it to ~50% (don't need to be 50% but take note of how much HP it has left). Check your combat log, see how much damage you dealt. > > > > > > That damage is = 100-x% of the golem's HP (x being how much it had left). Do it a few times more to get a more accurate picture. > > > > > > (You don't kill the golem to estimate it's HP because you don't want to overestimate due to overkill) > > > > > > Now you know that golem's HP, numerically. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ask a guy to kill it, time it. > > > > > > Divide the HP you obtained by the time it took him to kill in seconds = That person's Total DPS. > > > > > > See, not too hard to do, but convoluted as hell... > > > > > > > > > > > > Gear check, short of him actually linking it, is something you can't **ever** estimate in-game. > > > > > > And that's pretty much Chris Cleary's standpoint, he allows only stuff that can be gathered with combat data in-game. > > > > > > > > > > It's still estimation or guess, you as a human are incapable of playing, monitoring someone's dps in group and counting all the boons. So dps meter is already doing the job you can't achieve without using it. Literally. > > > > > > > > Estimation is not the same thing as a guess... > > > > > > > > Estimation it's a mathematical function, after you repeat it enough times, you can be certain of that mob's HP, within a very acceptable degree. After you know that, knowing how much damage a person does in a period of time is the definition of dps. > > > > Also ArcDPS itself only estimates other people's DPS, it's pretty accurate in it's estimations, but it **just** estimates it. > > > > > > > > You can count all the boons, that's actually easier than getting the DPS of someone... > > > > There's literally nothing on a DPS meter that you can't get from looking at a person fighting. It simply allows you to do it with more than 1 person at a time, and way more easily and efficiently. Which is the line Chris Cleary makes... > > > > > > > > > > It is impossible for you to do everything that dps meter does at the same time and contribute to the fight. DPS meter is like additional member of your squad counting these numbers for you. > > > > Sure, it's dificult to do it live, never said the contrary. But that's not the point, the point is that DPS meter doesn't offer any information that you can't obtain on your own, that's why it's allowed. And that's why Gear checks aren't, because what other people have equipped is **impossible** to see without the use of unauthorized software, or the other person showing you. > > Again, it's nothing more but estimate based on your performance. Unless dps meter reads directly numbers from your group members, meaning this is something you can't see as a player. And in the same way you can estimate someon's gear looking at his boon duration, condiduration and ticks or how hard his characters hits and how much damage it can facetank. Gearchecking is at this point exactly the same as dps meter estimates meaning it's a hypocritical decision to allow the latter while pretending the former is satan. There's a big difference between me estimating your dps within a 1% margin of error or less, than me guessimating your stats based on your boon duration. But i guess you don't understand maths. Or you really want to legitimize gear checking. I'm done replying to you. > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > q: what build/gear are you running? > a: that's a toxic question > q: we don't want to fail over and over and spend hours on this boss. would you mind switching? > a: I refuse on the grounds of toxicity > q: I am going to kick you? > a: yes you are because I'm being toxic Yeah, it's ironic isn't it? How a lot of people forget to check themselves before blaming the other party! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I think there are 4 groups of pve people: ultra casuals who think whatever build they run is godmode and no one can say otherwise casuals who will try new stuff if they fail tryhards who follow meta ultra tryhards who will kick anyone not meta as Buddha said, the middle way is the path to nirvana.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > is this how try hard people wanna be now? Rude people have always been rude. Misguided people will always be misguided. Misguided rude people will always remain ignorant kittens [sic]. If I saw someone worrying about the DPS of a commander in WvW, I'd use it as a grand opportunity to remind folks of the /block features available in game and with all VoIP clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I dont care if dps meter is tolerated rule says no 3rd party softwares that means it dont say unless we are okay with it sorry that is it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > I dont care if dps meter is tolerated rule says no 3rd party softwares that means it dont say unless we are okay with it sorry that is it Read the actual TOS (you know that thing that 90% of all players just click accept without ever reading) and everything it states they can change their policy at anytime whenever they want, all that they need to do is provide a statement of the change, which they did on the Old Forums this Forum and on their Reddit page. And their 3rd party program policy doesn’t state no 3rd party programs whatsoever it states nothing that allows you to play longer, play with an advantage, play while afk, one click can’t activate multiple keys, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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