Alacrity and Phantasm changes discussion

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > This means the death of sustaining reflection, boon/condi rip/removal, and alacrity with 3 phants. The latter is immensely helpful in WvW when you are the only Chrono and the only one with ram mastery.

> > > >

> > > > It feels like the mimic rework. Much more helpful in the long run but I will miss the niche applications.

> > >

> > > If you're in WvW and guardians aren't using shield 5 and courage 3 on the rams to block disablers, the problem is your group, not the lack of mesmer utility.

> >

> > You misread. I said the latter, as in 3 shield phants to give me alacrity while I ram. The sustained reflection part was based on fond memories of fractals and syncing up wardens.

>

> Ah yes, well that will go away. Realistically though, the amount of times you're able to do that effectively is really quite low due to the amount of people clustered around the gate stealing target spots.

 

You are thinking like a gold populated server rather than off peak sieging.

[Handi.1685]

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> It basically force dps PvE mesmers into clone mirage, which only really shines when new players have the money to buy vipers gear. I'm not a conspiracy theory person and I don't believe it is their intention, but it will disadvantage those not running PoF and pigeonhole chrono into boon bot (yes zerker chrono can still do 20k dps easily in frac/raid/dungeons with 3 iSwordman). Core mesmer itself will be shun even further and are forced into either elite specs to be viable even in dungeons, which is not friendly to new players at all.

>

> All in all they basically force mesmers into burst class unless you run clone mirage. Which I wouldn't call short sighted but if you look pass the initial "fix phantasm conflict" aspect we loses out diversity unless next expansion bring another overhaul.

 

Absolutely not , if you see mirage rotation you don t find shater , why : because M lose more dps with shater , same reson why M don t use axe 2,just twice , and the change ( what we know ) only effect power ,and not condi , may be it will open a new way for mirage but it is too early to tell after all we don t know what will be most of the trait changes . And the good part it will help shater builds + help chrono .

[curtegg.5216]

One major thing the Devs didn't mention about these changes is the fact that all mesmers lose the ability to rally with the assistance of their phantasms. There are countless times I recall being able to rally because of having assisted DPS of my phantasms after I go down. This will be gone now.

[Curunen.8729]

On that note - I guess downed skill #3 (Rogue) will also just attack then die and spawn a clone? I wonder if they'll lower the cooldown on it.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Disapointed in seeing they keep phatasm but res is best thing ever

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Handi.1685" said:

> > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > It basically force dps PvE mesmers into clone mirage, which only really shines when new players have the money to buy vipers gear. I'm not a conspiracy theory person and I don't believe it is their intention, but it will disadvantage those not running PoF and pigeonhole chrono into boon bot (yes zerker chrono can still do 20k dps easily in frac/raid/dungeons with 3 iSwordman). Core mesmer itself will be shun even further and are forced into either elite specs to be viable even in dungeons, which is not friendly to new players at all.

> >

> > All in all they basically force mesmers into burst class unless you run clone mirage. Which I wouldn't call short sighted but if you look pass the initial "fix phantasm conflict" aspect we loses out diversity unless next expansion bring another overhaul.

>

> Absolutely not , if you see mirage rotation you don t find shater , why : because M lose more dps with shater , same reson why M don t use axe 2,just twice , and the change ( what we know ) only effect power ,and not condi , may be it will open a new way for mirage but it is too early to tell after all we don t know what will be most of the trait changes . And the good part it will help shater builds + help chrono .

 

Help chrono how? Condi chrono is atrocious and for the most part condi pistol core mesmer is used in raid setting in niche bosses. We aren't exactly arguing against each other when you said mirage doesn't shatter. I did say this change forced any dps specs into mirage because you can only deal reliable dps condi damage with ambushes, and for the none-mirage specs clones are nothing more than pretty images. As much as I op for max potentials in raid setting, I must also recognize that new mesmers to the raid need a starting spec (albeit less optimal) so they can learn the mechanics of the boss without worrying too much about rotations.

 

What I'm saying is unless phantasm got significant buff (which, let's face it, further pushes for OP burst in PvP/WvW so heavy split is required), core mesmer itself will not be able to deal any consistent damage in PvE end game setting. So here's the question, does the rest of the elite specs in future expansions now carry the burden to match the sustain dps that mirage has? And if so what makes them or mirage unique, aka diversity?

 

EDIT: it doesn't really matter if chrono can now shatter without worry about destruction of phantasm, when you gate condi damage behind 10+s CD shatters you're already fighting an uphill battle in dps.

[npmis.7860]

I don't think the changes will have a big impact on Chrono in terms of buff-uptime. For most bosses "Chronophantasma" will probably be replaced with "Seize the Moment" for instant quickness for the team, since the ToT can't provide that anymore. For bosses where TW is a good option "Chronophantasma" will probably remain the go to. For DPS and the actual builds it really depends on the reworks of the Phantasm-skills and the related trait. I hope for drastic changes of several traits - letting "Phantasmal Fury" remain the same is a little disappointing, because it suggests that the buffs on the phantasms still affect the phantasms damage rather than the buffs on the mesmer, which I hoped for.

[MailMail.6534]

When they killed my Clone Death build, I knew this would eventually come next. *cries in Mesmer* Despite being neutral so far on the issue, I'm actually excited for the changes. Anything new is good right?! My stream will probably be mostly comprised of theory crafting all of next week.

 

Alacrity changes are a bit unsatisfying.

[Cantatus.4065]

It's too bad this change has to be across the board. One of the primary complaints about our elite specs has been that they don't really interact with our core mechanics much. This would've been a good opportunity to make our elite specs feel more distinct from each other in how they use phantasms. Personally, I've always liked the concept of shatters and am glad they'll be more useful, but at the same time, I think there's room for the more phantasm reliant build that currently exists even if it would require some retuning. It'd create more diversity in how we play.

[MailMail.6534]

**Responding to some of the dev quotes:**

> Signet of the Ether's passive has been changed and heals when illusions are summoned. The active should still be viable since it still lets you recast the phantasm for another attack.

The numbers will be interesting for this passive considering it's quite a different effect. I expect the passive to be negligible compared to its meager healing before.

 

> [pDisenchanter]'s been updated to remove multiple boons and deal significantly more damage.

So removing 2 boons and removing 2 conditions? It'll be hard to justify a larger buff without encroaching on things like Null Field / Arcane thievery.

 

> Phantasmal Fury is still there, we felt that 20% crit chance on your phantasm attack still had value so we left the trait alone.

So they have a 20% of critting on one attack? Nah son, that's silly. Make it 100% or scrap the scrap/rework the trait completely.

 

> Chronophantasma is more or less what you're describing, it allows the phantasm to attack a second time, becoming a clone after the second attack.

Wondering if there will be a delay before the second attack. As long as the attacks are impactful, this isn't a bad trait. For PvP purposes, I see quickness being more useful though. Who am I kidding, these changes are a huge nerf to chrono in pvp (for those still using it).

 

[npmis.7860]

> @"MailMail.6534" said:

>[...]

> > [pDisenchanter]'s been updated to remove multiple boons and deal significantly more damage.

> So removing 2 boons and removing 2 conditions? It'll be hard to justify a larger buff without encroaching on things like Null Field / Arcane thievery.

Don't they already strip two boons? So it would has stirp at least three boons, which would make sense for PvE, since "No Pain, No Gain" gives three boons too the mobs. Though your point stands non the less.

> > Phantasmal Fury is still there, we felt that 20% crit chance on your phantasm attack still had value so we left the trait alone.

> So they have a 20% of critting on one attack? Nah son, that's silly. Make it 100% or scrap the scrap/rework the trait completely.

Agree with you. Personally I would prefer a rework.

> > Chronophantasma is more or less what you're describing, it allows the phantasm to attack a second time, becoming a clone after the second attack.

> Wondering if there will be a delay before the second attack. As long as the attacks are impactful, this isn't a bad trait. For PvP purposes, I see quickness being more useful though. Who am I kidding, these changes are a huge nerf to chrono in pvp (for those still using it).

The power of this trait really depends on how strong the attacks phantasm attacks will be. I would preferred, the trait summoning the same phantasm after the first phantasm attacked. That would would make it quite a bit stronger. In PvP the trait might be wasted because the phantasms might die before the second attack.

 

 

[Crossplay.2067]

After reading about these changes, I am worried. Several of my mesmer builds rely on phantasm uptime and traits to boosts their effectiveness. It's going to be a massive pain relearning the entire class and changing all 8 of my mesmer builds accordingly. There's also no mention of changing any of the RNG stuff that I hate like Signet of Inspiration giving Swiftness and a random boon every 10 seconds. No one in their right mind would count on that random boon. Just set the passive to 25% movement speed as a passive so it would be a lot more reliable.

[Handi.1685]

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > @"Handi.1685" said:

> > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > > It basically force dps PvE mesmers into clone mirage, which only really shines when new players have the money to buy vipers gear. I'm not a conspiracy theory person and I don't believe it is their intention, but it will disadvantage those not running PoF and pigeonhole chrono into boon bot (yes zerker chrono can still do 20k dps easily in frac/raid/dungeons with 3 iSwordman). Core mesmer itself will be shun even further and are forced into either elite specs to be viable even in dungeons, which is not friendly to new players at all.

> > >

> > > All in all they basically force mesmers into burst class unless you run clone mirage. Which I wouldn't call short sighted but if you look pass the initial "fix phantasm conflict" aspect we loses out diversity unless next expansion bring another overhaul.

> >

> > Absolutely not , if you see mirage rotation you don t find shater , why : because M lose more dps with shater , same reson why M don t use axe 2,just twice , and the change ( what we know ) only effect power ,and not condi , may be it will open a new way for mirage but it is too early to tell after all we don t know what will be most of the trait changes . And the good part it will help shater builds + help chrono .

>

> Help chrono how? Condi chrono is atrocious and for the most part condi pistol core mesmer is used in raid setting in niche bosses. We aren't exactly arguing against each other when you said mirage doesn't shatter. I did say this change forced any dps specs into mirage because you can only deal reliable dps condi damage with ambushes, and for the none-mirage specs clones are nothing more than pretty images. As much as I op for max potentials in raid setting, I must also recognize that new mesmers to the raid need a starting spec (albeit less optimal) so they can learn the mechanics of the boss without worrying too much about rotations.

>

> What I'm saying is unless phantasm got significant buff (which, let's face it, further pushes for OP burst in PvP/WvW so heavy split is required), core mesmer itself will not be able to deal any consistent damage in PvE end game setting. So here's the question, does the rest of the elite specs in future expansions now carry the burden to match the sustain dps that mirage has? And if so what makes them or mirage unique, aka diversity?

>

> EDIT: it doesn't really matter if chrono can now shatter without worry about destruction of phantasm, when you gate condi damage behind 10+s CD shatters you're already fighting an uphill battle in dps.

 

I think it is too eary to judge how will the changes impact the mesmer profession, when the rework will be implemented, after all we don t know much about them .

And this is yust the first step because time and resources.

This is yust a guess but this was happened to make chrono less op support ,(also we don t know how will thy rework other support professions) atm in this game the support diversity is 2 class in raid , so this way thy let chrono to focus one support ability while an other do the other part , make 2 support pair with each other will make the diversity wider for example FB ( if thy fix FB )+ Chrono , here i must say it is ridiculous a mage class is the tank while a tank class is dps( yes i know chrono has cc, distortion etc, but noone can say any example in MMO history where this happened, and i know this can happen because the bad raid design, the no aggro system/class ). Cronos dps , chrono is a support class so noone expect to deal high dps, this may be this change, it can optimize the dps better ,by redirect part of the lost phantasma damage to the mesmer . Power core mesmer can use Illu/duel/ domi,all 3 has dps and shater boost traits ( so it is more likely it will work like this summon phantasma/clone , then clones then shater ) , while chrono trait line is for support and mirage for condi and don t think mirege will benefit by shatering clones , as for the future i see higher chance Anet will make a doppelganger user mesmer class for next spec where the phantasmas can be a problem , so better do it now then later . PvP , sorry i don t play any pvp, and in wvsw most times run with the zerg so this is a black area for me .

[npmis.7860]

> @"Handi.1685" said:

> [...]

> Cronos dps , chrono is a support class so noone expect to deal high dps, this may be this change, it can optimize the dps better ,by redirect part of the lost phantasma damage to the mesmer . Power core mesmer can use Illu/duel/ domi,all 3 has dps and shater boost traits ( so it is more likely it will work like this summon phantasma/clone , then clones then shater ) , while chrono trait line is for support and mirage for condi and don t think mirege will benefit by shatering clones , as for the future i see higher chance Anet will make a doppelganger user mesmer class for next spec where the phantasmas can be a problem , so better do it now then later. [...]

It is hard to tell how much of a DPS loss this will be, because it totally depends on how much damage those phantasms will deal with their single attack and, maybe, some CD adjustments. Condi Mirage, if mostly remaining as it is, could profit form phantasms turning into clones, if they adjust the damage of phantasm attack accordingly. Maybe we will see a condition-shatter build. There was one, which wasn't too bad if I remember correctly.

[Brise Nuques.6812]

Hi everyone,

I’m playing Mesmer in pvp and play only shatter build. I don’t hesitate, if I need to, to destroy a phantasm before he finish his attack. The thing that we cannot shatter a phantasm before it become a clone will slow Mesmer mecanics in my point of view.

Also when Robert say shatter was for instant domage and phatasms were for sustain domage, this new update seems to just stop sustain domage from Mesmer (for the others game mode)

Why we cannot have a « phantasm trait » (in a decisive place from shatter line) that allow phantasms to attack maybe two or 3 times before becoming a clone ?

And the last thing, I m not sure that the alacrity changes are good for pvp mesmer. Mesmer have very few support build available and those changes have a chance to just remove some chrono alacrity build. It will be switch by boon share but it’s less effective those days, there is a lot of boon removal.

Sorry for my English it’s not my native langage ;)

[OriOri.8724]

Phantasmal fury definitely needs to either be changed or buffed to guaranteed crit on phantasm attacks.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Brise Nuques.6812" said:

> Hi everyone,

> I’m playing Mesmer in pvp and play only shatter build. I don’t hesitate, if I need to, to destroy a phantasm before he finish his attack. The thing that we cannot shatter a phantasm before it become a clone will slow Mesmer mecanics in my point of view.

> Also when Robert say shatter was for instant domage and phatasms were for sustain domage, this new update seems to just stop sustain domage from Mesmer (for the others game mode)

> Why we cannot have a « phantasm trait » (in a decisive place from shatter line) that allow phantasms to attack maybe two or 3 times before becoming a clone ?

> And the last thing, I m not sure that the alacrity changes are good for pvp mesmer. Mesmer have very few support build available and those changes have a chance to just remove some chrono alacrity build. It will be switch by boon share but it’s less effective those days, there is a lot of boon removal.

> Sorry for my English it’s not my native langage ;)

 

Next elite spec could focus on enhancing phantasms - at this point I believe this is being done to lay the foundation for it.

[Cantatus.4065]

> @"Brise Nuques.6812" said:

> Hi everyone,

> I’m playing Mesmer in pvp and play only shatter build. I don’t hesitate, if I need to, to destroy a phantasm before he finish his attack. The thing that we cannot shatter a phantasm before it become a clone will slow Mesmer mecanics in my point of view.

 

From my understanding, the trade-off for phantasms no longer being shattered is that they also no longer count towards the summon cap. That means you can have three clones up, summon a phantasm, shatter, and then have that phantasm become a clone. So you really shouldn't have to wait on a phantasm's attack since you likely could summon another clone within that time and then have another already in your pocket. Of course, I would think some of this is going to depend on your weapon choice. Unless there's a firm time limit on how long before a phantasm turns into a clone, there's going to be some disparity between weapons. iSwordsman attacks a lot faster than iWarden, for instance.

[Hackuuna.4085]

> @"MailMail.6534" said:

> **Responding to some of the dev quotes:**

> > Signet of the Ether's passive has been changed and heals when illusions are summoned. The active should still be viable since it still lets you recast the phantasm for another attack.

> The numbers will be interesting for this passive considering it's quite a different effect. I expect the passive to be negligible compared to its meager healing before.

 

I have a feeling it will be too strong on Mirage and will end up being nerfed. This is assuming self-deception and deceptive evasion count as illusion summoning.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Cantatus.4065" said:

> It's too bad this change has to be across the board. One of the primary complaints about our elite specs has been that they don't really interact with our core mechanics much. This would've been a good opportunity to make our elite specs feel more distinct from each other in how they use phantasms. Personally, I've always liked the concept of shatters and am glad they'll be more useful, but at the same time, I think there's room for the more phantasm reliant build that currently exists even if it would require some retuning. It'd create more diversity in how we play.

 

As Curunen says: Watch the next elite spec be about bringing back persistent phantasms in some form. Wouldn't be the first time that ArenaNet's pulled something out of a core profession and then re-introduced it in an elite spec (and, to be fair, usually in a better form).

[Cantatus.4065]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Cantatus.4065" said:

> > It's too bad this change has to be across the board. One of the primary complaints about our elite specs has been that they don't really interact with our core mechanics much. This would've been a good opportunity to make our elite specs feel more distinct from each other in how they use phantasms. Personally, I've always liked the concept of shatters and am glad they'll be more useful, but at the same time, I think there's room for the more phantasm reliant build that currently exists even if it would require some retuning. It'd create more diversity in how we play.

>

> As Curunen says: Watch the next elite spec be about bringing back persistent phantasms in some form. Wouldn't be the first time that ArenaNet's pulled something out of a core profession and then re-introduced it in an elite spec (and, to be fair, usually in a better form).

 

Can't say as that would surprise me. I was thinking it'd be interesting to have a build that worked to extend the life of phantasms some. Definitely wouldn't be the most interesting elite spec to get (was thinking something like that would've been cooler for Chrono), but I guess I'd at least have to be a little happy to get an elite spec that actually does something with illusions.