Levetty.1279 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > Well as a necro main, i saw the mesmer changes, and i have to say, im afraid of them. They sounded pretty op. > So i spoke to a friend of mine. A mesmer main since beginning of the game. > And he said the same thing. > These changes sound more like "buff buff buff buff buff mesmer" to him as well. > > And he really is hyped for the changes. If the only change that happens is this Phantasm change then its a nerf to pretty much every build except a small buff to DPS Mirage in Pve. Our excitement comes from this should make the mechanics of the class much better and put the class design in a more cohesive place going forward. You obviously don't know anything about the class. > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? It was, they gave it some pretty large buffs and now its being pretty much carried by axe in PvE and in PvP its doing well because the PvP community hates dueling classes and conditions and loves complaining about Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courvoisier.1268 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 So... when are those changes to mesmer going live ? Im leveling a mesmer and i do some pvp with it and this change can be a nerf as it can be a lil buff, depends on what is going to be changed, if only the phantasm thing it is a huge nerf, if this + some cd and skills changes it could be a good change, can even not be a big nerf or even a nerf but just a change to how you play the class. Well that is what i think (not an expert at mesmer but wanting to main it thats why i wana know when are the changes going live). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > Well as a necro main, i saw the mesmer changes, and i have to say, im afraid of them. They sounded pretty op. > So i spoke to a friend of mine. A mesmer main since beginning of the game. > And he said the same thing. > These changes sound more like "buff buff buff buff buff mesmer" to him as well. > > And he really is hyped for the changes. Some of them looked powerful. Phantasmal warlock now summoning 2 illusions to shatter is pretty nice for shatter spam builds, and staff was already quite good at pumping out illusions due to the low CD on phase retreat. But simply due to how extensive of a change this is for mesmer its hard to say anything about it before we see the changes listed and get to test it ingame. Remember, that every traitline will be touched, and a lot of skills are going to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Courvoisier.1268" said: > So... when are those changes to mesmer going live ? Im leveling a mesmer and i do some pvp with it and this change can be a nerf as it can be a lil buff, depends on what is going to be changed, if only the phantasm thing it is a huge nerf, if this + some cd and skills changes it could be a good change, can even not be a big nerf or even a nerf but just a change to how you play the class. > > Well that is what i think (not an expert at mesmer but wanting to main it thats why i wana know when are the changes going live). They are live tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belishine.7493 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 the changes to mes is going to be realy big i can tell you all that but i think we will lose so mutch dps from this change i might need to go back to condi mes but do we know how confusion is being changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown.3976 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Courvoisier.1268" said: > So... when are those changes to mesmer going live ? Im leveling a mesmer and i do some pvp with it and this change can be a nerf as it can be a lil buff, depends on what is going to be changed, if only the phantasm thing it is a huge nerf, if this + some cd and skills changes it could be a good change, can even not be a big nerf or even a nerf but just a change to how you play the class. > > Well that is what i think (not an expert at mesmer but wanting to main it thats why i wana know when are the changes going live). Phantasm builds are mainly PVE, where the AI ain't bright enough to burst down a Power mes' main source of dps. Phantasm nerf shouldn't have much of an impact on PvP, though it's likely that mirage will see some nerfs in the PvP aspect. Patch should be up in about 26-30 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitax.8124 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I main Mesmer, and have since launch. I feel lazy mesmer players are the ones most to lose on this and are the ones that are crying the most. My definition of lazy is create dps phants, leave them active adding more phants to ramp up dps and minimal shatter usage. Boring play style, but pretty effective especially in pve. I honestly dont think this is how the class was intended to be played. Mesmer was designed to make use of shattering to gain benefits and boons, and cause condis and dd. However, with these major changes the traits like Phantasmal Defender and Phantasmal Disenchanter will need to be looked at very carefully due to major benefit these two utilities offer. Most likely offset this by CD reduction. Those are the only glaring huge issues with the new system. As for alacrity, I am ok with it being a boon, just make it last longer since now it can be stripped, or make it stack able. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courvoisier.1268 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Unknown.3976" said: > Phantasm builds are mainly PVE, where the AI ain't bright enough to burst down a Power mes' main source of dps. Phantasm nerf shouldn't have much of an impact on PvP, though it's likely that mirage will see some nerfs in the PvP aspect. Patch should be up in about 26-30 hours. That is what im talking about, i think it might destroy chronomancer in pve completly and that is why im worried, since i wana main a character for pve/pvp/wvw btw thanks @"Unknown.3976" and @"EpicTurtle.8571" for the time of the changes =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windwalker.7421 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I agree that hopefully we'll see a significant reduction in both cast time and CD for Phantasms, that would go a long way in bringing them back into PvP combat as more than the shatter bait they tend to be now. Considering they will only attack once, that attack shouldn't just be more powerful, but also be a little less telegraphed and delayed so they're not quite so easily avoided by blind, block,evade, etc. It's just currently way too easy to counter Phantasms in PvP. First you can counter them from even being summoned in the first place, and if you failed that you basically get a free shot at avoiding the attack they perform, since they attack so slowly and predictably. Most often you can cover both the summon and the attack with the same active defense ability, and we all know that Phantasm won't see the second attack cycle! I for one am glad they're finally changing Phantasms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Unless they nerf damage I interpreted what was posted as an overall buff. Phantasm damage will be front loaded to compensate for a shorter lifetime and they don't count towards max illusions. i.e. generate 3 clones, generate phantasms, shatter with your phantasms burst and you're left with 2 clones after phantasms pop. I may not necessarily shatter "more", but when I do it seems to me I'll have more worthwhile shatters by clone count available. More clones out synergizes with a number of traits as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I wish they could just remove phatasm and add a clone only on mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackuuna.4085 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackuuna.4085 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackuuna.4085 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Habitax.8124" said: > I main Mesmer, and have since launch. I feel lazy mesmer players are the ones most to lose on this and are the ones that are crying the most. My definition of lazy is create dps phants, leave them active adding more phants to ramp up dps and minimal shatter usage. Boring play style, but pretty effective especially in pve. I honestly dont think this is how the class was intended to be played. This change wont effect clone mesmer.. Which still does top DPS in the mesmer bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackuuna.4085 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. > > Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. Again the complaint I'm referring to is that you don't move when you dodge. It felt clunky to some users because they were used to movement being part of dodging. I accept that part of those complaints may have been due to the shorter duration of superspeed but again the user still needs to learn to maneuver away regardless of how long the superspeed is. It really is learn to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > > > > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. > > > > Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. > > Again the complaint I'm referring to is that you don't move when you dodge. It felt clunky to some users because they were used to movement being part of dodging. I accept that part of those complaints may have been due to the shorter duration of superspeed but again the user still needs to learn to maneuver away regardless of how long the superspeed is. It really is learn to play. I find it funny that you are arguing with Pyro that it was a l2p issue. He is one of the best mesmers that visit the forums, when he says its a clunky mechanic its not because he doesn't know how to play the class effectively. It felt clunky because you were handicapped. A regular dodge will move you the same distance whether you dodge forwards, sideways or backwards. Superspeed only affects you when you are moving forward. So .75sec of superspeed was only enough to move the same distance as a regular dodge if you kept moving forward. As a mirage, even if you keep moving the entire time, the distance you move changes depending on whether you are moving forward, sideways, or backwards. That is a fundamentally clunky mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackuuna.4085 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > > > > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > > > > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > > > > > > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. > > > > > > Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. > > > > Again the complaint I'm referring to is that you don't move when you dodge. It felt clunky to some users because they were used to movement being part of dodging. I accept that part of those complaints may have been due to the shorter duration of superspeed but again the user still needs to learn to maneuver away regardless of how long the superspeed is. It really is learn to play. > > I find it funny that you are arguing with Pyro that it was a l2p issue. He is one of the best mesmers that visit the forums, when he says its a clunky mechanic its not because he doesn't know how to play the class effectively. > > It felt clunky because you were handicapped. A regular dodge will move you the same distance whether you dodge forwards, sideways or backwards. Superspeed only affects you when you are moving forward. So .75sec of superspeed was only enough to move the same distance as a regular dodge if you kept moving forward. As a mirage, even if you keep moving the entire time, the distance you move changes depending on whether you are moving forward, sideways, or backwards. That is a fundamentally clunky mechanic. Where have I stated that Pyro doesn't know how to play the class effectively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > > > > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. > > > > Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. > > Again the complaint I'm referring to is that you don't move when you dodge. It felt clunky to some users because they were used to movement being part of dodging. I accept that part of those complaints may have been due to the shorter duration of superspeed but again the user still needs to learn to maneuver away regardless of how long the superspeed is. It really is learn to play. Ultimately it **is** clunky. Consider the number of keystrokes required to complete a single action: dodging backwards. On mirage you dodge, about face, run forwards, about face. That's 4 keystrokes to complete. On any other class you dodge. That's 1 keystroke to complete. This being clunky is not a l2p issue, it's simply a statement of fact. Mirage dodge obviously offers additional uses that normal dodge doesn't have, but for actually avoiding/moving out of damage, it was strictly inferior. It doesn't matter how good you are at manipulating the keys or how used to the mechanic you are, performing those actions on mirage will be slower and less precise than the same actions on another class. This is notable because dodging to avoid damage on mirage doesn't have a higher skill cap than on other classes, which is normally the excuse for clunky mechanics. It's mechanically identical across all classes, even daredevil, and so mirage having an objectively worse version was a problem. Adding the additional 33% duration makes up for that clunkiness. It's a concession that basically says "yeah, this doesn't really work as well as a normal dodge, so have an extra 33% duration to make up for it". It's still clunky, but you have the extra time needed to work with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackuuna.4085 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I feel > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > > > > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > > > > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > > > > > > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. > > > > > > Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. > > > > Again the complaint I'm referring to is that you don't move when you dodge. It felt clunky to some users because they were used to movement being part of dodging. I accept that part of those complaints may have been due to the shorter duration of superspeed but again the user still needs to learn to maneuver away regardless of how long the superspeed is. It really is learn to play. > > Ultimately it **is** clunky. Consider the number of keystrokes required to complete a single action: dodging backwards. > > On mirage you dodge, about face, run forwards, about face. That's 4 keystrokes to complete. > > On any other class you dodge. That's 1 keystroke to complete. > > This being clunky is not a l2p issue, it's simply a statement of fact. Mirage dodge obviously offers additional uses that normal dodge doesn't have, but for actually avoiding/moving out of damage, it was strictly inferior. It doesn't matter how good you are at manipulating the keys or how used to the mechanic you are, performing those actions on mirage will be slower and less precise than the same actions on another class. This is notable because dodging to avoid damage on mirage doesn't have a higher skill cap than on other classes, which is normally the excuse for clunky mechanics. It's mechanically identical across all classes, even daredevil, and so mirage having an objectively worse version was a problem. > > Adding the additional 33% duration makes up for that clunkiness. It's a concession that basically says "yeah, this doesn't really work as well as a normal dodge, so have an extra 33% duration to make up for it". It's still clunky, but you have the extra time needed to work with it. I agree with what you are saying about why it was buffed and when it's considered clunky in comparison to normal dodging, I just don't think clunkiness and l2p are mutually exclusive the way you describe. This complaint in particular that I'm addressing (I don't move when I press dodge) requires one to adjust their mental model of how their character will behave when they press a certain key (l2p) even if they will need to chain that with other keys (clunky). I'd argue that the normal dodge is more clunky in various gameplay, including areas where there are disappearing tiles or where precise movements are necessary or your back is facing an edge, but I haven't heard anyone say that's not learn to play it's just clunky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverbane.7215 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Here's my prediction as a mesmer playing since release. The changes will be an overall buff initially in all game modes. In sPVP the buff will throw them over the top. Players will complain more then ever about mesmers being OP because they find fighting mesmers annoying. Arenanet will make the business decision of nerfing the mesmer since they don't want to lose people over the least played class. The nerf caused by sPvP will make the mesmer damn near useless in PvE. The mesmer community will complain for the next 6-12 months and they "might" make some minor changes. If they make minor changes to make us useful again the mesmer community will cheer with glee because we are a bunch of masochists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > I feel > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Hackuuna.4085" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > > > > > > > > > Remember when Mirage came out and before anyone had really played it and bedded in a good amount of hrs on the class everyone was like 'oh crap class not as good as chrono, pointless addition'. Now everyone is playing mirage and it's busted af lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets see what the changes bring eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree. I remember a portion of the player base having tremendous difficulty with dodges no longer moving you and the complaints that came from that. Now that people have played around with it and see that evading while doing actions is extremely useful there really hasn't been any more mention of it other than how strong it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The change of evade duration from 0.75s to 1s was a huge factor in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 0.75s evade the dodge was weak. At 1s (consequently 1s of superspeed) it is fantastic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The complaint was that you don't automatically move when you press dodge but you may be right that 1s superspeed gives slower players enough time to move the same distance as a 3/4 dodge used to move so they no longer complain. Personally I feel it was just a learn to play issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Consider that going from .75 seconds to 1 second is a full 33% more duration on both the dodge and the superspeed. That's an enormous boost to the usability of both the dodge and superspeed that comes with it. Also consider that mirage on release was exceedingly weak in terms of raw dps output. Not only did you have a weak dodge, but you had weak offense and some additional clunky mechanics. Mirage still has some clunky mechanics, but the dodge is strong and the offense has been significantly boosted. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's silly to pretend that just because mirage got drastic buffs the complaints on release were not justified. In fact, the opposite is true. Mirage only got the buffs **because** the complaints were justified. > > > > > > > > > > Some of the complaints were justified but some (including the one I am specifically addressing) were not. It really is a learn to play issue sometimes. > > > > > > > > Except the complaint **was** justified. .75s of superspeed was sufficient if and only if you were moving forwards. Want to dodge backwards? Sorry. Want to dodge sideways? Sorry. A full 1s provides the extra additional time to maneuver your character the way that the mechanic requires. It's still clunky and poor design, but that clunkiness is basically brute forced into functionality through a substantial buff to the duration. It has nothing to do with a learn to play issue and everything to do with non-functional mechanics. > > > > > > Again the complaint I'm referring to is that you don't move when you dodge. It felt clunky to some users because they were used to movement being part of dodging. I accept that part of those complaints may have been due to the shorter duration of superspeed but again the user still needs to learn to maneuver away regardless of how long the superspeed is. It really is learn to play. > > > > Ultimately it **is** clunky. Consider the number of keystrokes required to complete a single action: dodging backwards. > > > > On mirage you dodge, about face, run forwards, about face. That's 4 keystrokes to complete. > > > > On any other class you dodge. That's 1 keystroke to complete. > > > > This being clunky is not a l2p issue, it's simply a statement of fact. Mirage dodge obviously offers additional uses that normal dodge doesn't have, but for actually avoiding/moving out of damage, it was strictly inferior. It doesn't matter how good you are at manipulating the keys or how used to the mechanic you are, performing those actions on mirage will be slower and less precise than the same actions on another class. This is notable because dodging to avoid damage on mirage doesn't have a higher skill cap than on other classes, which is normally the excuse for clunky mechanics. It's mechanically identical across all classes, even daredevil, and so mirage having an objectively worse version was a problem. > > > > Adding the additional 33% duration makes up for that clunkiness. It's a concession that basically says "yeah, this doesn't really work as well as a normal dodge, so have an extra 33% duration to make up for it". It's still clunky, but you have the extra time needed to work with it. > > I agree with what you are saying about why it was buffed and when it's considered clunky in comparison to normal dodging, I just don't think clunkiness and l2p are mutually exclusive the way you describe. This complaint in particular that I'm addressing (I don't move when I press dodge) requires one to adjust their mental model of how their character will behave when they press a certain key (l2p) even if they will need to chain that with other keys (clunky). > > I'd argue that the normal dodge is more clunky in various gameplay, including areas where there are disappearing tiles or where precise movements are necessary or your back is facing an edge, but I haven't heard anyone say that's not learn to play it's just clunky. I understand what you're saying and yes it is valid that there were some complaints about dodge being bad simply because it didn't move you. Though I can appreciate that point of view because of the situation created by the 0.75s duration and mechanical complexity of movement compared with single button press of dodge - it also has a very different flow in combat, especially when used in combination with various skills weapons. I mean who can forget the classic GS2+Dodge forward over opponent (DE clone)+F1. That flow and others are different for mirage - sure you can just run through your target and achieve the same thing but the mechanical technique is different. Anyway as soon as it became 1s it was solid - and on that note I sincerely hope Anet have the sense to keep it at 1s for the future of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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