Vampiric Presence

[Zenith.7301]

VP should simply be a 5% damage leech.

 

Essentially 5% more damage for the group and leech. Voila, necromancer suddenly relevant.

[Obtena.7952]

I think perhaps I was not being clear; the old VP scaled on # of attacks, up to 5 targets and I think it was the number of attacks that was the problem for Anet. That's definitely ruined by the 1/2 second cooldown. I don't think what they did was the best answer to addressing this because admittedly, I think it's a stretch that the # of hits dependence was really that big a problem that had to be dealt with. I can only assume .. there are future plans.

 

I am convinced that Anet is so hellbent on forcing players into a secondary and substandard (Shroud) spec that performs in such a specific way that success will continue to elude the class, especially in PVP/WvW, until Anet starts recognizing that the non-Shroud and Shroud state HAVE to live beside each other equally. This would mean that every trait has something to offer play in both states. This advantage of some traits to the Shroud state just tells me that Anet knows it's a deficient state of play. They are still committed to forcing the shroud swap.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> The intention is good, but the practical use in game is not. First of all the only spec that can take advantage of this is power necro. The healing is to minimal to make much of a difference on scourge support builds.

>

> Power necro has way too low dps. Core necro does not hit often enough to make good use of that bonus in shroud, you waste the icd. Power reaper is better, yet a big problem of this is that most tools (wells, axe 2, GS3 etc) hit very often and you want to cast all of them together BEFORE entering shroud to increase the damage, which gets crippled by the ICD.

 

I concur. I happen to be running around in PvE on full apothecary scourge necro (everything asc/legendary save exotic staff). The heal part is 83 without shroud, 165 in it, and that's with 1.5k healing power on me..

[mazut.4296]

Whats with the warrior discussions here? Wasn't this Necromancer!!! forum!?!

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> so while you're fully buffed i expect this buff to produce around 2k bonus dps for a subsquad. Given that power reaper benchmark is at around 27.5-28k dps, that gain is still useless and would be better to take another class. please remove the internal cooldown.

>

> Edit: i forgot alacrity is nerfed so the benchmark will be lower.

>

> edit: yup its 27k

 

With 3.9k power its around 155-160 dmg.

 

So 320 per second which leads to 1600 dps increase for your subsquad.

 

But: noone takes power necros with them in raids. You loose like 2k dps if you play power reaper with spite and bloodmagic instead of spite and soulreaping. So overall its a dps loss for the group. And it even gets worse, cause you wont be playing epi.

 

And for scourge its an even bigger dmg loss to play bloodmagic.

So lets throw necro healer in the pot.

 

Scourge heal support has a big problem:

First condiremove was nerfed this patch. Thats in pve a 1 condition removed for almost 2k lifeforce. WAY TOO EXPENSIVE

The second thing: other healers are better healers. And necro would need: power (to make vampiric presence an actual good dps increase for his group)

Vitality: to get more and easy access to lifeforce

Concentration. To get the might going.

And healpower. At least 1500 to make a 6k barrier with healskill-use (maximum what is worth to not overbarrier a guard or ele)

 

Now you could say, concentration is not needed, because there is druid who is giving might to the whole team. Well then. You dont need a scourge in second group then, cause just solo standing, revenant is the best healer in the game. And it can give permanent alacrity.

 

Problem: there are no stats such as +120power +120healpower +70 vitality.

 

So right now:

 

- healsupport necro is useless cause there are better healers/supporters

- power reaper is useless, cause there are better dmg dealers

- condireaper/condiscourge is useless at most raidbosses cause there are better dmg dealers, only epi makes them viable

 

I even tried is as a tank, but its useless as well, cause we have no good dmg mitigation

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > so while you're fully buffed i expect this buff to produce around 2k bonus dps for a subsquad. Given that power reaper benchmark is at around 27.5-28k dps, that gain is still useless and would be better to take another class. please remove the internal cooldown.

> >

> > Edit: i forgot alacrity is nerfed so the benchmark will be lower.

> >

> > edit: yup its 27k

>

> With 3.9k power its around 155-160 dmg.

>

> So 320 per second which leads to 1600 dps increase for your subsquad.

>

> But: noone takes power necros with them in raids. You loose like 2k dps if you play power reaper with spite and bloodmagic instead of spite and soulreaping. So overall its a dps loss for the group. And it even gets worse, cause you wont be playing epi.

 

as i said earlier but you didnt read entire thread: "realistic buffs full zerk meta food and 18x +5+9 gives: 178 damage, 353 in shroud per tick."

as for soul reaping, you are completely wrong. dps difference before patch between SR and BM wasnt 2k dps. it was around 500-700dps (solo). BM was still stronger with 5 allies even before patch. Today, Blood Magic wins over Soul Reaping in every scenario for power reaper.

[flow.6043]

> @"Abimes.9726" said:

> NB°°° ICD is 1 second and not 1/2 sec like tool tip says. (Auto on golems it procs every 2/3 auto when cd of staff 1 is 3/4 sec and should proc it every time.)

 

I can't confirm this.

Nectrotic Grasp procs it every time for me and Ghastly Claws does it 3 times with its 1.75 sec channel.

 

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I think perhaps I was not being clear; the old VP scaled on # of attacks, up to 5 targets and I think it was the number of attacks that was the problem for Anet.

 

If that was true how come the regular Vampiric trait wasn't changed? It basically had the same values as Vamp Aura.

Other classes can't proc a no-icd version of it any more often than necros, if that's what you're implying?

 

Bottom line:

It's an irrelevant change for PvE and a nerf where it matters more, PvP.

[Aetatis.5418]

if VPs ICD could be changed to the way chilling victory works (per foe), i'd be fine.

still not good enough for competitive pve, but i stopped hoping and begging for big changes. anet has got a design philosophy they dont share with us... and its probably not going to change. (tbh sometimes it feels like praying to an entity. you never get an answer or an opinion. at some point something changes (or not) and you dont know why xD )

 

 

 

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Aetatis.5418" said:

> if VPs ICD could be changed to the way chilling victory works (per foe), i'd be fine.

> still not good enough for competitive pve, but i stopped hoping and begging for big changes. anet has got a design philosophy they dont share with us... and its probably not going to change. (tbh sometimes it feels like praying to an entity. you never get an answer or an opinion. at some point something changes (or not) and you dont know why xD )

>

>

>

 

And make it a 1/4s icd like One Wolf Pack and Impossible Odds.

[Abimes.9726]

> @"flow.6043" said:

> > @"Abimes.9726" said:

> > NB°°° ICD is 1 second and not 1/2 sec like tool tip says. (Auto on golems it procs every 2/3 auto when cd of staff 1 is 3/4 sec and should proc it every time.)

>

> I can't confirm this.

> Nectrotic Grasp procs it every time for me and Ghastly Claws does it 3 times with its 1.75 sec channel.

 

 

Yup I confirm it hit multiple times , It just takes 3 auto attacks sometimes to start doing it's thing, My bad.

Still if ICD is shared on multiple targets it' is worse than what it used to be and I think this trait could be improved.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"flow.6043" said:

> > @"Abimes.9726" said:

> > NB°°° ICD is 1 second and not 1/2 sec like tool tip says. (Auto on golems it procs every 2/3 auto when cd of staff 1 is 3/4 sec and should proc it every time.)

>

> I can't confirm this.

> Nectrotic Grasp procs it every time for me and Ghastly Claws does it 3 times with its 1.75 sec channel.

>

>

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I think perhaps I was not being clear; the old VP scaled on # of attacks, up to 5 targets and I think it was the number of attacks that was the problem for Anet.

>

> If that was true how come the regular Vampiric trait wasn't changed? It basically had the same values as Vamp Aura.

> Other classes can't proc a no-icd version of it any more often than necros, if that's what you're implying?

>

> Bottom line:

> It's an irrelevant change for PvE and a nerf where it matters more, PvP.

 

I dunno, but this is NOT an irrelevant change for PVE, that much is certain. These traits were used with great effect in combination with minions in PVE. Now, probably much less effective.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"flow.6043" said:

> > > @"Abimes.9726" said:

> > > NB°°° ICD is 1 second and not 1/2 sec like tool tip says. (Auto on golems it procs every 2/3 auto when cd of staff 1 is 3/4 sec and should proc it every time.)

> >

> > I can't confirm this.

> > Nectrotic Grasp procs it every time for me and Ghastly Claws does it 3 times with its 1.75 sec channel.

> >

> >

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I think perhaps I was not being clear; the old VP scaled on # of attacks, up to 5 targets and I think it was the number of attacks that was the problem for Anet.

> >

> > If that was true how come the regular Vampiric trait wasn't changed? It basically had the same values as Vamp Aura.

> > Other classes can't proc a no-icd version of it any more often than necros, if that's what you're implying?

> >

> > Bottom line:

> > It's an irrelevant change for PvE and a nerf where it matters more, PvP.

>

> I dunno, but this is NOT an irrelevant change for PVE, that much is certain. These traits were used with great effect in combination with minions in PVE. Now, probably much less effective.

 

Nobody plays this traitline in highend pve. And noone takes more than 1 minion in highend pve.

 

Minions arw only for lazy players that dont want to have anything to do witch challenging content

[Dadnir.5038]

Oh? Wasn't _blood fiend_ and _shadow fiend_ very usefull as dps increase as well as sustain tools, part of the "meta" dps build for the necromancer? If I recall correctly, you take shadow fiend for it's ability to refill a bit of your life force and blood fiend because it's a nice way to have an healing skill that does more than just heal you... But maybe I'm wrong and more life force and extra damage are not worth the investment... Maybe that's "lazy" ;)

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

>

> Nobody plays this traitline in highend pve. And noone takes more than 1 minion in highend pve.

>

> Minions arw only for lazy players that dont want to have anything to do witch challenging content

 

both of your statements are incorrect. if you are a tryhard power reaper (doesn't matter that this class is not good at anything, assume you don't care but still want to min-max), you would take vampiric presence for bonus dps to subsquad, and golem+shadow fiend + blood fiend (however i recommend using well of blood over blood fiend, since it's ressing downed people). well of corruption over shadow fiend is only better for bursty fights, and so is plaguelands (for example dungeon bosses, fractals).

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> >

> > Nobody plays this traitline in highend pve. And noone takes more than 1 minion in highend pve.

> >

> > Minions arw only for lazy players that dont want to have anything to do witch challenging content

>

> both of your statements are incorrect. if you are a tryhard power reaper (doesn't matter that this class is not good at anything, assume you don't care but still want to min-max), you would take vampiric presence for bonus dps to subsquad, and golem+shadow fiend + blood fiend (however i recommend using well of blood over blood fiend, since it's ressing downed people). well of corruption over shadow fiend is only better for bursty fights, and so is plaguelands (for example dungeon bosses, fractals).

 

Then again. Nobody plays power reaper in highend pve... scourge sometimes takes shadow fiend yes but thats not the point

 

Oh and thats how they treat players, that live for their class: "You have posted 0 times within 150 seconds. A spam block is now in effect on your account. You must wait at least 150 seconds before attempting to post again."

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Oh? Wasn't _blood fiend_ and _shadow fiend_ very usefull as dps increase as well as sustain tools, part of the "meta" dps build for the necromancer? If I recall correctly, you take shadow fiend for it's ability to refill a bit of your life force and blood fiend because it's a nice way to have an healing skill that does more than just heal you... But maybe I'm wrong and more life force and extra damage are not worth the investment... Maybe that's "lazy" ;)

 

I think the reason people stopped using those things realistically is that in pve they are outdated. They need to do more numbers wise and while anet did fix them keep them from being killed by chip aoe damage. They are still very weak in any pvp situation that makes them not worth taking. Any profession can disable your healing skill with 1 or 2 skills and shadow fiend is good for 1 use in most cases before it dies. I know because I used it recently for shits and giggles. It had its moments where it saved my butt here and there by random blind but it usually dies to indirect damage pretty fast. Even when you buff the pets to deal more damage and be more durable they dont really feel like they get any stronger.

Then again this is true with most of the traitlines on necro. Boost this 1 thing... hardly makes a difference when you use it or punishes you more when you use it.

[Anchoku.8142]

I gave up on Vampiric Presence last night.

[Galmac.4680]

ANet buffed one trait by 1200%, and it is still not worth it. ONE THOUSAND AND TWO HUNNID percent more, and still crappy.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"Galmac.4680" said:

> ANet buffed one trait by 1200%, and it is still not worth it. ONE THOUSAND AND TWO HUNNID percent more, and still crappy.

 

Before patch every hit get life Back, you hit 5targets with 1blow u got 5x procs. Now IT feels you got ONLY on first hit(first enemy) (correct me od im Wrong pls)) And then nothing So. ONLY buff if AA one target i guess. In wvw not Worth taking blood magic. Idk how good IT IS in boss fights in PvE.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"Galmac.4680" said:

> > ANet buffed one trait by 1200%, and it is still not worth it. ONE THOUSAND AND TWO HUNNID percent more, and still crappy.

>

> Before patch every hit get life Back, you hit 5targets with 1blow u got 5x procs. Now IT feels you got ONLY on first hit(first enemy) (correct me od im Wrong pls)) And then nothing So. ONLY buff if AA one target i guess. In wvw not Worth taking blood magic. Idk how good IT IS in boss fights in PvE.

 

No you are right. The Internal Cooldown they added, of 1/2 a second, ruined it.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"Galmac.4680" said:

> > ANet buffed one trait by 1200%, and it is still not worth it. ONE THOUSAND AND TWO HUNNID percent more, and still crappy.

>

> Before patch every hit get life Back, you hit 5targets with 1blow u got 5x procs. Now IT feels you got ONLY on first hit(first enemy) (correct me od im Wrong pls)) And then nothing So. ONLY buff if AA one target i guess. In wvw not Worth taking blood magic. Idk how good IT IS in boss fights in PvE.

 

In PvE, against a single mob it's between 150 and 200 dps increase compared to before with the same build. (hell yeah!)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"flow.6043" said:

> > > > @"Abimes.9726" said:

> > > > NB°°° ICD is 1 second and not 1/2 sec like tool tip says. (Auto on golems it procs every 2/3 auto when cd of staff 1 is 3/4 sec and should proc it every time.)

> > >

> > > I can't confirm this.

> > > Nectrotic Grasp procs it every time for me and Ghastly Claws does it 3 times with its 1.75 sec channel.

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > I think perhaps I was not being clear; the old VP scaled on # of attacks, up to 5 targets and I think it was the number of attacks that was the problem for Anet.

> > >

> > > If that was true how come the regular Vampiric trait wasn't changed? It basically had the same values as Vamp Aura.

> > > Other classes can't proc a no-icd version of it any more often than necros, if that's what you're implying?

> > >

> > > Bottom line:

> > > It's an irrelevant change for PvE and a nerf where it matters more, PvP.

> >

> > I dunno, but this is NOT an irrelevant change for PVE, that much is certain. These traits were used with great effect in combination with minions in PVE. Now, probably much less effective.

>

> Nobody plays this traitline in highend pve. And noone takes more than 1 minion in highend pve.

>

> Minions arw only for lazy players that dont want to have anything to do witch challenging content

 

Both irrelevant; PVE is NOT only meta play in high end PVE encounters; if that's your mindset, continue to be VERY disappointed with every single balance patch.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

 

> Then again. Nobody plays power reaper in highend pve... scourge sometimes takes shadow fiend yes but thats not the point

 

any scourge that knows their stuff would know to take Shadow Fiend over Trail of Anguish, because it results in better dps. so no, scourge doesn't take shadow fiend sometimes, but as much as possible. priority is this:

1. blood is power

2. epidemic if applicable

3. shadow fiend

4. trail of anguish

 

3 or 4 can be replaced with CPC if situation requires it (for example in snowblind fractal if your chrono doesn't know how to place feedback on ice elemental), or by corrupt boon if needed.

 

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"flow.6043" said:

> > > > > @"Abimes.9726" said:

> > > > > NB°°° ICD is 1 second and not 1/2 sec like tool tip says. (Auto on golems it procs every 2/3 auto when cd of staff 1 is 3/4 sec and should proc it every time.)

> > > >

> > > > I can't confirm this.

> > > > Nectrotic Grasp procs it every time for me and Ghastly Claws does it 3 times with its 1.75 sec channel.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > I think perhaps I was not being clear; the old VP scaled on # of attacks, up to 5 targets and I think it was the number of attacks that was the problem for Anet.

> > > >

> > > > If that was true how come the regular Vampiric trait wasn't changed? It basically had the same values as Vamp Aura.

> > > > Other classes can't proc a no-icd version of it any more often than necros, if that's what you're implying?

> > > >

> > > > Bottom line:

> > > > It's an irrelevant change for PvE and a nerf where it matters more, PvP.

> > >

> > > I dunno, but this is NOT an irrelevant change for PVE, that much is certain. These traits were used with great effect in combination with minions in PVE. Now, probably much less effective.

> >

> > Nobody plays this traitline in highend pve. And noone takes more than 1 minion in highend pve.

> >

> > Minions arw only for lazy players that dont want to have anything to do witch challenging content

>

> Both irrelevant; PVE is NOT only meta play in high end PVE encounters; if that's your mindset, continue to be VERY disappointed with every single balance patch.

 

The thing is, they seemed to buff this with (arguably) high end pve in mind. That is to say it is only a buff vs single targets, which is generally what high end pve is.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > Maybe, but the healing is also pathetic and not worthwhile. Heck, the healing for most builds went DOWN today because of the ICD.

>

> Honest, I didn't catch the ICD, which sucks ... but without it, there was no way they could reasonably give it higher values anyways. In otherwords, if there was no ICD, it would have stayed pathetic forever; with the ICD, there is a path forward for them to at least _consider_ changing it.

 

Except because of the ICD vamp presence is now significantly lower healing and lower damage at the same time. The only time the new vamp presence is better than the old is in a purely single target fight with a low attack rate weapon. In any other circumstance the new vamp presence is dramatically worse to a large degree.

 

New vamp presence is basically trash outside of punching the parsing golem.