Discussion about Confusion [merged]

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> At this point it might just be better to make confusion only deal damage on skill use in PvP/WvW, and only have it deal tick damage (just like bleed and burn) in PvE. Then bring the tick value back up to that of bleed.

>

> Yes, it takes away Confusion's uniqueness in PvE, but it removes all of the balancing woes.

 

If they want to keep Confusion as it is now, the least they can do is add stacks of Bleed per stack of confusion to make up for it. (PvE only, obviously.) Then just shift any traits/runes/sigils that pertain to Confusion to Bleed or Torment instead.

 

...man, that's going to kill Perplexity's value and the sprockets. Lame. :disappointed:

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > At this point it might just be better to make confusion only deal damage on skill use in PvP/WvW, and only have it deal tick damage (just like bleed and burn) in PvE. Then bring the tick value back up to that of bleed.

> >

> > Yes, it takes away Confusion's uniqueness in PvE, but it removes all of the balancing woes.

>

> If they want to keep Confusion as it is now, the least they can do is add stacks of Bleed per stack of confusion to make up for it. (PvE only, obviously.) Then just shift any traits/runes/sigils that pertain to Confusion to Bleed or Torment instead.

>

> ...man, that's going to kill Perplexity's value and the sprockets. Lame. :disappointed:

 

Basically any change except for reverting the changes for PvE would cause a balancing nightmare. Changing confusion to other conditions (and then splitting those changes from PvP modes, because they don't actually want to remove that condition from the game, do they) would not be just a case of adjusting few skills. Anet would have to look at skills, field combo interactions, runes, sigils, traits... and then keep remembering all the differences in those from their PvP versions. And considering that prepatch Confusion worked well in PvE, it would be ton of work for no gain at all.

Better to just revert it

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > At this point it might just be better to make confusion only deal damage on skill use in PvP/WvW, and only have it deal tick damage (just like bleed and burn) in PvE. Then bring the tick value back up to that of bleed.

> > >

> > > Yes, it takes away Confusion's uniqueness in PvE, but it removes all of the balancing woes.

> >

> > If they want to keep Confusion as it is now, the least they can do is add stacks of Bleed per stack of confusion to make up for it. (PvE only, obviously.) Then just shift any traits/runes/sigils that pertain to Confusion to Bleed or Torment instead.

> >

> > ...man, that's going to kill Perplexity's value and the sprockets. Lame. :disappointed:

>

> Basically any change except for reverting the changes for PvE would cause a balancing nightmare. Changing confusion to other conditions (and then splitting those changes from PvP modes, because they don't actually want to remove that condition from the game, do they) would not be just a case of adjusting few skills. Anet would have to look at skills, field combo interactions, runes, sigils, traits... and then keep remembering all the differences in those from their PvP versions. And considering that prepatch Confusion worked well in PvE, it would be ton of work for no gain at all.

> Better to just revert it

 

My proposed change would keep confusion in PvE almost exactly as powerful as it was pre-patch (and due to how slowly most mobs attack the difference wouldn't be noticeable at all), while at the same time making it so that no skill or trait had to be changed, along with making balancing confusion _easier_.

 

Its no worse than reverting it, but in the long run it may be better, just because it would make balancing confusion easier.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> My proposed change would keep confusion in PvE almost exactly as powerful as it was pre-patch (and due to how slowly most mobs attack the difference wouldn't be noticeable at all), while at the same time making it so that no skill or trait had to be changed, along with making balancing confusion _easier_.

>

> Its no worse than reverting it, but in the long run it may be better, just because it would make balancing confusion easier.

I was replying to rauderi's proposal. Yours is almost as it worked before in PvE, so it's not really meaningfully different from just plain reversal, and will likely work equally well.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Better to just revert it

 

Well over a week into this, and ANet still hasn't said anything. If they were interested in doing the sane thing and change the PvE version back to what it was, they would've done so already. May as well offer some alternatives. Maybe out of all of them, ANet will find something that doesn't completely screw Confusion over while still maintaining a reason to use it.

 

That's why I'm looking at alternative damage structures (3%/15%).

That's why I'm pitching the reddit idea of a one-and-done Confusion (extended duration in PvE ensures it ticks, Expertise is "stun insurance".)

I'm not buying the "purity of purpose" or "identity" thing for PvE Confusion, but if it's going to be a thing, then at least backing it up with a decent skill split would make up the difference. That might even include just removing Confusion from PvE entirely and using Torment instead. I hate the idea, because there's too much gear that focuses on Confusion to just let it go.

 

I can't even say that reverting it to the prior PvE is the best solution. It might take a functional split between PvE Confusion and PvP Confusion to accommodate attack rates.

 

Confusion against players stays as it is. No one is arguing that. I make the distinction of "player" instead of PvP/PvE for a reason.

At least one person floated the idea that PvE enemies should take Confusion damage for NOT acting. Not only does this solve the problem of Confusion not doing sufficient damage in PvE due to enemy attack rates, but it also solves the problem of Defiance stunning a boss and making Confusion take a dps lag. 5 seconds of a stunned boss, taking +25% damage, and taking the highest damage rate from Confusion would be a huge boost.

[Angel de Lyssa.4716]

So? in the end no response? "Confusion" dies? Will the subject be forgotten? Let's continue talking about the issue, to see if it is solved, and make a decent change. (Up)

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Angel de Lyssa.4716" said:

> So? in the end no response? "Confusion" dies? Will the subject be forgotten? Let's continue talking about the issue, to see if it is solved, and make a decent change. (Up)

 

I'm surprised the reddit thread on the gryphon flight change has lasted longer than the necessary Confusion outrage. As if tweaking one weapon is supposed to make up for the rest of an entire profession's getting slapped without any forethought?

[Jojo.6590]

With all the changes, issue, and confusion dealing with the confusion condition (pun intended) I would not mind to see confusion replaced with the condition(?) spectral agony. The only ability that gives Mesmer access to this condition(?) is signet of agony, the new down state ability you can unlock via HoT/ living world Se 3. This seems like a really cool condition (?) that could also be used as the main condition(?) for a new elite specialization (duel pistol).

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > @"Angel de Lyssa.4716" said:

> > So? in the end no response? "Confusion" dies? Will the subject be forgotten? Let's continue talking about the issue, to see if it is solved, and make a decent change. (Up)

>

> I'm surprised the reddit thread on the gryphon flight change has lasted longer than the necessary Confusion outrage. As if tweaking one weapon is supposed to make up for the rest of an entire profession's getting slapped without any forethought?

There's only so much that you can say before you start to repeat yourself, and the most common reason to continue a thread (people disagreeing with you) is mostly gone here. Almost everyone agrees that Anet practically killed Confusion in PvE, so you can't really keep bumping the thread with "i agree", "I also agree" posts.

 

With no discussion, and with no Anet response whatsoever this thread will continue to get pushed to further pages more and more. And Confusion will stay dead.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Confusion remains in an unacceptable state in PvE. This may have been what you had in mind in terms of pure functionality, but it obviously doesn't work. I think we deserve to hear from the development team at this point.

 

Specifically, I would like to hear your thoughts on the following concerns:

 

1) AI doesn't use skills quickly enough to make loading all condition damage stat onto the on-skill-use effect feasible in PvE.

 

2) AI does not change its behavior in response to confusion, thus completely negating its function as a control condition.

 

 

 

 

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

This confusion nerf reminds me of the "Visual Noise" fiasco of several years ago. Anyone remember that mess?

[Angel de Lyssa.4716]

> @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said:

> This confusion nerf reminds me of the "Visual Noise" fiasco of several years ago. Anyone remember that mess?

 

I remember it perfectly, when "confusion" died with the utility of Glamor abilities (Especially when "Feedback" inflicts Blind and Confusion), the too abuse of use in wvw, ended up nerf "Confusion". Now it's the same but with the Mirage on pvp, the "Confusion" was improved, but it did not last long until nerf again, turning it useless.

 

But if we go back many years back, when Gw2 came out, "Confusion" was designed to be combined with buff "Retaliation", so the mesmer had the F2 shatter that inflict "Confusion" and grants Retaliation, it was like the spell "Empathy" and "Backfire" of the Gw1 but all in F2, So, when an enemy attack or used any skill, he received damage from the "Confusion" and then received another damage from the "Retaliation", it was a very good synergy of the mesmer for "Confusion" mechanic in GW2.

 

What happened? that soon people started crying, and Arenanet, as has no idea, does not know what is the mesmer from Gw1, he has been destroying the mesmer little by little, until now there is nothing left. That also, "confusion" and "Retaliation" towards damage according to your condition damage, which later on, the "Retaliation" damage was changed by your power damage as a nerf, and then later, the "Confusion" nerf ".

 

The mesmer of Gw1, was a profession that basically consisted in punishing the enemy, the majority of its spells depended on the actions of the enemy, which according to how it acts, received a lot of damage or little. The mesmer is turning into GW2 in a different profession, is a sorcerer that not similar, and does not even look like the mesmer of the GW1.

 

[Senel.5863]

Unfortunately as it is I do not think they will be addressing this soon (or even at all).

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Senel.5863" said:

> Unfortunately as it is I do not think they will be addressing this soon (or even at all).

 

Which is a shame that their only tactic is to stonewall and hope the situation goes away. The token effort on Mirage Axe is an actual insult to good design.