Discussion about Confusion [merged]

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > I still don't get it. A few months ago Anet made Confusion useful in PvE and now they did a complete 180 and killed the ticking damage. Its very close to its vanilla form, basically useless.

> >

> > Karl said that they were pretty excited about the Confusion changes and I have a question for Anet. Why should the PvE player be excited about this change. How does PvE benefit from this change?

> Well, if you think about it, Karl said _they_ were excited about this change. Not that the _players_ would be.

>

 

Maybe they had some "confusion" between excitement and .. nervous tension!

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > I still don't get it. A few months ago Anet made Confusion useful in PvE and now they did a complete 180 and killed the ticking damage. Its very close to its vanilla form, basically useless.

> > >

> > > Karl said that they were pretty excited about the Confusion changes and I have a question for Anet. Why should the PvE player be excited about this change. How does PvE benefit from this change?

> > Well, if you think about it, Karl said _they_ were excited about this change. Not that the _players_ would be.

> >

>

> Maybe they had some "confusion" between excitement and .. nervous tension!

 

This.... is..... GENIUS.

 

 

Ok to be more seriously. Like BrokenGlass, I would like to hear a statement from Anet. This was a massive change that wasn't really thought out if it was intended, while the other changes are more or less pretty good.

[Karl McLain.5604]

The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

 

To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > > I still don't get it. A few months ago Anet made Confusion useful in PvE and now they did a complete 180 and killed the ticking damage. Its very close to its vanilla form, basically useless.

> > > >

> > > > Karl said that they were pretty excited about the Confusion changes and I have a question for Anet. Why should the PvE player be excited about this change. How does PvE benefit from this change?

> > > Well, if you think about it, Karl said _they_ were excited about this change. Not that the _players_ would be.

> > >

> >

> > Maybe they had some "confusion" between excitement and .. nervous tension!

>

> This.... is..... GENIUS

 

Likely because their devs introduced those two emotions poorly.

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

 

And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

So.. should I respond with a “YES!!!!” or “Oh no...”? I’m quite confused still. Can we still get high damage-over-time in PvE? I can’t test it out at the moment sadly.

 

Edit : Seems like it is an “Oh no...”

R.I.P. Mirage in PvE.

[Feersum Endjinn.4179]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

So, this means that mirage is junk now? Wow, really thought that out well. ffs..

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

So this was intended? Wow. And somehow it never occurred to our dev team that they might need to add some real PvE conditions to weapons like axe that rely heavily on confusion damage which is, by design, no longer there?

 

This is the sort of thing that takes that warm fuzzy feeling of trust away from players like myself, Karl. Consider me off the list of players who are willing to buy gems until we have further discussion and resolution. Poor way to handle this, ANet.

[mereghost.7910]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

Hey @"Karl McLain.5604" can you explain the train of thought to lead to this decision? I mean, the same team adjusted confusion to work as a bleed, with some extra damage on skill activation, in PvE a few months back (Aug/17 IIRC). Now we are closer as to how it worked at launch. If you could make the "whys" clear, we might reason about it, otherwise it's just adding fuel to an already huge bonfire.

[Bofouci.1320]

Questions:

1: Can we get a free stat change on ascended gear, cause you f'd mine as a condi mirage?

2. Can we have a more appropriate elite weapon specialization for the mirage class since axe is now crap vs PVE?

3. Was the toll on players gearing ever considered during the development of these changes?

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

Check your update log and you'll see that no matter how much damage buff you give to confusion, it'll just remain useless in PvE without DoT. Please do let us know the reasoning behind PvE changes? Within the same patch (and same paragraph as well) you guys have proven yourself that developers are more than capable of doing a split so that shouldn't be a reason.

[Sharkey.9805]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

So what's the plan to make this worthwhile in PvE then? Encounter design hasn't changed to make this considerable versus any other ticking damage, and is in fact discouraged by other mechanics such as stuns and interrupts. You've effectively killed it's usage by doing this because there isn't a single mob in the game that would justify its usage over bleeds, burns, torment or poison.

 

Like, sure, mesmers will move on and start using torment instead. So why does confusion exist in PvE at all? What are you giving us to justify considering the usage of confusion at all? Why bother?

[DaVid Darksoul.4985]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"DaVid Darksoul.4985" said:

> > Not sure what everyone is crying about. I get burst down now faster then before balance. Y'all want to feel nerfed try roaming a necro, (each spec). Seems all others actually got buffed while we got a crap buff to a traitline no one uses, and scrounges advantage at surprise shrouds was wiped away. Oh and PvE, whats the big deal? You get to kill a npc slower because you cant adjust. Talk to a WvW mes for pointers, they know their kitten better then y'all.

>

> No offense, but are you some kind of.. mentally - nevermind. Or you don’t play PvE obviously. Or maybe you don’t know how to read.

>

> Mirage was a good and viable DPS class in RAIDS AND FRACTALS.

> Chronomancer was a good and viable meta class in RAIDS AND FRACTALS.

> This patch **destroyed** Mirage and almost destroyed Chronomancer (seems like).

>

> PvE is the main aspect of this game and most people don’t want to deal with people like you in PvP/WvW. Destroying a balanced class in PvE is **WRONG**.

 

Your remark has been reported for the insult. Have a nice day :).

[Karl McLain.5604]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> >

> > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

>

> Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

>

> And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

 

Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

[Karl McLain.5604]

Double post ftw.

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Sharkey.9805" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> >

> > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

>

> So what's the plan to make this worthwhile in PvE then? Encounter design hasn't changed to make this considerable versus any other ticking damage, and is in fact discouraged by other mechanics such as stuns and interrupts. You've effectively killed it's usage by doing this because there isn't a single mob in the game that would justify it's usage over bleeds, burns, torment or poison.

>

> Like, sure, mesmers will move on and start using torment instead. So why does confusion exist in PvE at all? What are you giving us to justify considering the usage of confusion at all? Why bother?

 

They're not giving us anything. Absolutely no reason to play condi mirage in PVE now change or be ousted in fractal and raid groups. Wasted time crafting viper's armor, farming for trinkets, amulet, rings and accessories and waste of time getting Veilrender. My friggin blood is boiling with all this crap. And futhermore the only confusion in the posts are the devs ability to communicate their ideas or lack of communication on other intended or unintentional consequences as a result of this balance. Communication is the responsibility of the sender; not the receiver.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

@"Karl McLain.5604"

 

what was the *REASONING* behind this change?

 

the damage over time component is SO SMALL, the vampiric buff from necro almost accounts for the confusion damage.

 

see, without the *reason* we will all assume that you guys cant tell an a s s from an elbow.

 

so, perhaps a *statement of intent* is in order.

 

not just some 'err, we clarified it, it sucks exactly as bad as you think it does.'

 

if axe was always supposed to be a pvp weapon... like all of spellbreaker, tell us.

if the goal was to bring down mirage dps, tell us. and explain why nothing was done about other hgher damage glass cannon specs.

 

 

suggested fix:

 

- make confuse have base damage lower than bleeds with better scaling (such that bleed outpaces confuse with no condi damge investment, but becomes outpaced with investment.)

- when a player uses a skill while confused, they give themselves a debuff called 'confused'

- 'confused' applies a stack of confusion on skill usage for 3 sec.

- 'confused' has a 3 sec icd.

- if a player uses a skill while 'confused is on icd' add 1 sec of confusion instead.

 

 

now we have counterplay based on skill usage. with low enough damage to justify it, all while leaving it viable in PvE

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> > >

> > > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

> >

> > Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

> >

> > And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

>

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Can we get an exact date for this “Soon” or do we have to wait? :disappointed:

 

These changes were **perfect** for PvP but not for PvE. Not cool sir, not cool.

[mereghost.7910]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

The whole reasoning is perfect from a Competitive mode PoV and I do agree with it, but pushing such change that can affect a whole spec without sweeping changes to it's traits/weapon/skills can be a bit frustrating for the players.

 

Meanwhile what do all mirages do? Couldn't the change be reverted until then? I mean, it appears to me that the changes to confusion back in August were made to support the mirage spec (since most of it's traits and skills generate stacks of confusion).

[BrokenGlass.9356]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> > >

> > > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

> >

> > Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

> >

> > And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

>

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

also, if the plan was to move other weapons to be viable, why did you not do that in this patch?

 

did you consider the fallout of not making the changes at the same time?

 

dosent it seem, that for the health of the game, we ought to revert the changes for pve only, knowing that when the weapons are updated, that hotfix will dissapear?

or- do you need the time collecting data of exactly how bad confusion is, before fixing it?

 

also, why not buff the activated component much more? give me a reason to try to stack confuse before Samarog does his slam... rather that a 7k tick, lets try a 20k tick. (not op when compaired to a thief's backstab) if this was only in pve, then this change *could be really cool*

[Sharkey.9805]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> > >

> > > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

> >

> > Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

> >

> > And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

>

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

So then it's agreed that confusion is intended as an inferior debuff that won't see high usage in PvE? That's disappointing - like, I get that the confusion ticks from before were a compromise because of this, but I figured encounter design would change over time to accommodate more situations to justify usage of confusion over other debuffs, and then you'd do something like this. But it sounds like instead you're just pulling out of confusion usage in PvE all together to allow for a clearer meta for condition damage to develop. Then why not just skip the confusing transition and make confusion work the same as torment in PvE period, and adjust the stacks as necessary?

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> > >

> > > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

> >

> > Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

> >

> > And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

>

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Thank you for the information. Still seems odd after the August Patch moved confusion to a more PvE like condition. Looks like you are shifting confusion to a PvP condition now since mobs aren't using their skills as often as players do.

 

And with the shifting toward Torment, I hope this will happen. Axe gameplay was really one of the most fun things.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

> @"mereghost.7910" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

>

> The whole reasoning is perfect from a Competitive mode PoV and I do agree with it, but pushing such change that can affect a whole spec without sweeping changes to it's traits/weapon/skills can be a bit frustrating for the players.

>

> Meanwhile what do all mirages do? Couldn't the change be reverted until then? I mean, it appears to me that the changes to confusion back in August were made to support the mirage spec (since most of it's traits and skills generate stacks of confusion).

 

they did do sweeping changes to traits and skills. they shoehorned you into a breserker power build with weapons you dont like.

[mereghost.7910]

> @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> they did do sweeping changes to traits and skills. they shoehorned you into a breserker power build with weapons you dont like.

 

Not complaining about the changes to phantasm etc. Neither of having a power damage alternative. Don't read more than what's written.

The changes to phantasms were more than welcome. The reversal of a change they made, like 6 months ago, to make confusion a viable condition (together with torment) in PvE kinda baffles not only me but a lot of people.

 

It's kinda the whole *Reaper is a power spec, but condi is better* thing again.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@"Karl McLain.5604"

also, why not have confuse apply damage on application, and skill usage? in pve only?

 

this way we get the 'on skill effect' on each stack on application, then again for all stacks on skill usage. then the "ticking" component is unnessecary. because continuous application IS the ticking damage (assuming you have the tech to have each new stack proc the 'activated' tick without procing the rest of the stack.)

 

*THIS* makes it a burst condition, AND, makes it viable in PvE