Faaris.8013 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing. That's pretty much my definition of "wasting development time". And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. This is what *the players it is meant for* find interesting and fun. And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. > > > > I've never seen an LFG in the raid section that asks for a Fractal Savant title, a 99cm/100cm kill proof or Ad Infinitum to join the group. So while I agree that fractals prepare you skill-wise for raids, they are not an entry-requirement for raids at all, nor do they make it easier to actually get into raid groups. The fractal tiers work great...for fractals. They are not in place for raids. Raid tiers would make raids more accessible, because "instanced content" is not all the same. A group that wants to do 99cm/100cm doesn't care if you have 100LI or some raid title, and a raid group doesn't care if you are a Fractal Savant. > > > > You say no lower tier raids can prepare you for raids, but on the other hand, you agree that it works well for fractals. Why do you make that distinction? > > You won't see any. The explanation is a bit further in the text you quoted, but for your convenience I'll write it again: > > "Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it." > > Of course raid LFGs will look for raid-specific experience. You won't see fractal CM party asking for Demon's Demise either, for the same reason - the experience doesn't translate directly. That's the point. Experience not translating directly is what makes new challenging content fun. Because it means you get to figure it out on your own, make the transition from "omg, what just happened" through "ah, I get it", further down the "oh not this again" and finally to "yay for us, team". And that same feature means you **can't** get ready for that content on lower levels. A lower level can teach you some basics, that's true. But these basics you can already learn in fractals. Apologies if I didn't make it clear enough. > > TL;DR: > Lower tiers don't make you ready, it only teaches basics. You write as if I was the one incapable of reading. But you first wrote "You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding." and now you are saying "Lower tiers don't make you ready, it only teaches basics." Sorry, it's not me who is unclear here. If you changed your mind, that's fine, but please don't act like this is what you said all the time and that I didn't pay attention. And I disagree with what you say about playing, failing and playing again until you master it. This is clearly not the only way of mastering content. If you join a guild that raids decently, you will not fail over and over again. You will always get your kill, and learn the encounter while your group is successful. When you join a Fractal Tier 1 group as a newbie, you will still finish the fractal in most cases, get your reward and learn. I sometimes do Nightmare 24 and invite newbies. They often die at capturing altars, but we always finish the fractal and they get a reward. And they can watch the more experienced players doing the orbs and learn from them. I'll even explain what will happen and what needs to be done. Your scenario is valid for new content. The way to learn the new raid wing in the first weeks was playing, failing, playing again until mastering it. But 95% of the raid/fractal content is not new. There are lots of players who already mastered it. There is just a lack of sense of community in this game that makes people expect you to learn it the same way they learned it. And even many of those who were lucky and didn't have to grind with random pugs feel that other players should go through the grind they never had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing. That's pretty much my definition of "wasting development time". And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. This is what *the players it is meant for* find interesting and fun. And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. > > > > > > I've never seen an LFG in the raid section that asks for a Fractal Savant title, a 99cm/100cm kill proof or Ad Infinitum to join the group. So while I agree that fractals prepare you skill-wise for raids, they are not an entry-requirement for raids at all, nor do they make it easier to actually get into raid groups. The fractal tiers work great...for fractals. They are not in place for raids. Raid tiers would make raids more accessible, because "instanced content" is not all the same. A group that wants to do 99cm/100cm doesn't care if you have 100LI or some raid title, and a raid group doesn't care if you are a Fractal Savant. > > > > > > You say no lower tier raids can prepare you for raids, but on the other hand, you agree that it works well for fractals. Why do you make that distinction? > > > > You won't see any. The explanation is a bit further in the text you quoted, but for your convenience I'll write it again: > > > > "Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it." > > > > Of course raid LFGs will look for raid-specific experience. You won't see fractal CM party asking for Demon's Demise either, for the same reason - the experience doesn't translate directly. That's the point. Experience not translating directly is what makes new challenging content fun. Because it means you get to figure it out on your own, make the transition from "omg, what just happened" through "ah, I get it", further down the "oh not this again" and finally to "yay for us, team". And that same feature means you **can't** get ready for that content on lower levels. A lower level can teach you some basics, that's true. But these basics you can already learn in fractals. Apologies if I didn't make it clear enough. > > > > TL;DR: > > Lower tiers don't make you ready, it only teaches basics. > > You write as if I was the one incapable of reading. But you first wrote "You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding." and now you are saying "Lower tiers don't make you ready, it only teaches basics." > > Sorry, it's not me who is unclear here. If you changed your mind, that's fine, but please don't act like this is what you said all the time and that I didn't pay attention. Apologies, it seems like I didn't make my point clear enough. Here's the deal: lower difficulty tiers only get you so far. Being good at T4 fractals doesn't make you automatically good in fractal CMs, that why CM groups ask for CM killproof. The way to become good in CMs is to play them, fail, and play them more. The same holds true for raiding. You can't be prepared for raiding without having raided. Now, obviously having experience in the lower tier translates into something. Like, you know your role in the group and how to perform it under pressure. **However, a lower tier raid won't teach you anything more than the already existing fractals in this respect.** It won't teach you the mechanics either, as they will need to be relaxed out of necessity. See for instance normal mode vs CM Arkk. In normal mode, failing the pillars mechanic isn't a big deal - you take some damage, shrug it off and continue. In CM it simply wipes you and that makes a BIG difference. Relaxed mechanics teach bad habits, which translate directly into poor performance on the higher tier. Any potential advantage from knowing the mechanics is completely lost because you will first need to unlearn all the bad habits picked up. Hope I made that clear. > @"Adenin.5973" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing. That's pretty much my definition of "wasting development time". And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. This is what *the players it is meant for* find interesting and fun. And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. > > > - "Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing." - You don't know that it would take that long > - And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** - Wow that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Fractals do not get you ready for raiding, they don't explain you the mechanics, they don't require a meta composition (yes, you can do it with 4 MM necros and a longbow ranger), they don't give you killproof so ppl take you with them in raids. What do they prepare you for? Maybe you learn your class a bit better, maybe you learn to evade better. These things could be learned elsewhere. It's like saying high rank PvP prepares you for raiding. > - The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. - So you just said literally that the "lower tiers of content can you get ready for raiding" and now you say the complete opposite of it in the next sentence. Also this is again completely baseless speculation from you that has no example in the game. If you would ask right now any person that plays 99/100cm, if the 99/100cm mode was the only and very first fractal they've played, what would be the answer? Exactly, everyone started at the bottom and climbed their ladder, failing already at t1 fractrals and t2 and 3 and t4. And now that they're doing 99/100cms the lower tiers are super easy for them but they were a challenge when they went in the low tiers for the first time. Ask them if a complete newb that never played the fractal should immediately start at 99/100cm or if it would be a good idea to start with t1. We all know the answer. > And yes, of course super challenging content will always be a bit of a niche content, but this is not about making the current raid difficulty level the most played content in the game, it's about making raids in general as content be played by far more people, this includes ppl playing raids at t1-t4. It's about how much hours of content per player gets anet from developing a raid. Currently that number must be unbelievably small, therefore it's a waste of their time but by making raids as a whole be played by more players, this number will drastically increase to a point where new raids are worth their effort and then they might even get more raids out than before, with more lore and rewards tied to them > - Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. - Exactly, achieved by raid tiers, where the lowest tier doesnt search for any killproof, where newbs can just join and try the raid, without getting together with the uber elitists that kick them instantly or where the entire group wipes immediately because someone made a mistake. > - And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. - Again not true, there are tons of players that failed at fractals but they find either a tier that suits them or they can go down a tier train a bit and eventually they get to the next tier. Fractals are still popular, they wouldn't if the only tier would be t4 or only the cms. > > You don't have to and you shouldn't lower the ceiling but you should, as already explained, lower the entry barrier. There's nothing that changes for the people that like the challenge but a massive part of the playerbase get's a massive amount of content that suddenly is within they reach and ability to play, with long term goals in improving their gameplay, their equipment and even those that want to do only raids for the story have now a low tier entry raid where they can experience that. > > That's the exact opposite of wasting development time. I have a pretty good idea how long would it take. I've been a game developer for the last 14 years and I've developed a feel how long it takes to get various things done. Obviously, since I don't work for ANet my estimate can be way off. But not orders of magnitude off. And it would take that much for the changes you think to be actually considered fast and easy. For the rest, see my explanation in reply to Faaris above. In short, you won't get any more prepared by playing a hypothetical "easy mode raid" than you would from playing T4 FotM. Both won't make you ready. Only playing actual raids will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > For the rest, see my explanation in reply to Faaris above. In short, you won't get any more prepared by playing a hypothetical "easy mode raid" than you would from playing T4 FotM. Both won't make you ready. Only playing actual raids will. And that is where our observations differ. In my book, the tiered system in fractals works great. Many more people play fractals than do raids. I myself went through the tiers and learned a lot on the way up. And when you've done 100 in normal mode a lot of times, you are much better prepared for 100cm than if you hadn't done any fractals before. If fractals worked like raids, you would have to dive into the content with 100cm. Instead of half of GW2's population playing fractals regularly (estimate according to gw2efficiency numbers), you would have mayb 2% playing them. There is no "bad habits" taught by tuned down mechanics that cannot be changed quickly. We see this happen when players leave T3 and join T4. They got bad habits like ranging and using defensive gear and strategies. But They adapt quickly and you rarely see that happening in T4s. If you start playing basketball when you are young, and you use a normal weighted and sized ball for years, you might learn bad posture when throwing it. Your brain is in development and your muscle memory is forming in a very specific period of your life. When you are 20, it might even be too late to get rid of the bad posture/habit and you will have a very hard time getting better. But we are talking about simple mouse and key movements here done for a short period of time by people with mostly fully developed brains. You can adapt very quickly to changed environments. If your "bad habits" theory was reflecting reality, how could players even play different classes in this game? How could they change their rotation after a patch? I have several setups for my mouse keys, depending on the class I play. It just takes a few days for muscle memory to adapt. We are extremely adaptable beings, when you get a new mobile phone with a different operating system tomorrow, you'll handle it without looking within a week. I recently learned how to cut onions in a better way. All my life I was cutting onions in a specific way, a "bad habit" you might say. Guess what, I'm not a lost case, because I simply started cutting them in the way I was shown. And you really think if a player can survive an AoE in T3, he'll not learn to dodge after the first 3 attempts in T4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Adenin.5973" said: > Add raid tiers and these ppl have enough to do for several months. Doesn't take away your challenge, could even lead to a situation, where raids are that popular that the raid team gets way bigger and you get even more of your challenging content. And who would program such raid tiers? The Raid Team? Please dont. We already wait several months for raids to be released. Dont slow it down even more. > When raids would be massively popular, maybe anet would've even decided that making another set of legendary armor would be worth the effort. Legendary armor was such a shitshow that i dont even want them to develop a second set. Fix the current one and then forget about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > @"Adenin.5973" said: > > Add raid tiers and these ppl have enough to do for several months. Doesn't take away your challenge, could even lead to a situation, where raids are that popular that the raid team gets way bigger and you get even more of your challenging content. > > And who would program such raid tiers? The Raid Team? Please dont. We already wait several months for raids to be released. Dont slow it down even more. Get more more on the team then? If it draws more players to the content, to the game, that's more players getting invested and more money for Anet. I think the community should stop fooling itself with fake-LIs and fake-Titles and fake kill proofs. Right now, you get into raiding by pugging Escort or other raids that are easier than Mai Trin to get enough LIs to join LFGs. Everybody knows these are fake, but still follows along. I have probably seen more Voice in the Void titles in this game than people who raid regularly, since the title could be obtained by cheating ^^ Or you simply buy raid kills to get a mini or LIs, so you'll get accepted in groups. Also, how much more work is it really? You already have the blueprint of the raid encounters. There are controls to tweak an encounter already. You can create a new instance of the raid, tweak it down and give it a tier. You don't have to create new animations, new 3d models, new arenas. Changing how fast a floor dissappears or how much damage an AoE does is just tweaking numbers. Of course it takes time to create tiers, but not as much as creating new content. We can take a look at how it has been done in fractals. Less damage, slower moving enemies (Ice Elementals in low tier Snowblind walk like they are payed by the hour). Smaller AoE fields, mechanics simplified (no need to put tears into the panels in Uncategorized), less consoles to handle. More time to handle mechanics, like with Swampland wisps. It really sounds doable for me with a small budget, and an enormous effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Legendary armor is how a legendary should be. Skins are imho useless if compared to the QoL provvided by the item itself, but even so there are some issues: * Different armors ( you can't swap the whole legendary armor among all your character because of the armor type restrictions ). * Missing pieces ( Still we don't have 2x rings and 2x trinkets. Also a forced animation on a QoL item is something definitely wrong ). * Weapons price is way too high if compared to armor. * Missing inernal build tool. * Really stupid management of sigils/runes ( which points to the previous point too ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adenin.5973 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > @"Adenin.5973" said: > > Add raid tiers and these ppl have enough to do for several months. Doesn't take away your challenge, could even lead to a situation, where raids are that popular that the raid team gets way bigger and you get even more of your challenging content. > > And who would program such raid tiers? The Raid Team? Please dont. We already wait several months for raids to be released. Dont slow it down even more. > > > When raids would be massively popular, maybe anet would've even decided that making another set of legendary armor would be worth the effort. > Legendary armor was such a shitshow that i dont even want them to develop a second set. Fix the current one and then forget about it. > > > I have no problem with other teams doing the different raid tiers or helping the raid team out with that. Like other teams helped the raid team in the past, from creating assets, new sounds, making changes to the core tech of the engine to allow for certain mechanics, from designing new elite specs in certain way, to balance all classes accordingly etc. I think Anet even showed us some time ago after HoT how many different teams helped create everything needed for the raids. Also, if raids are more popular they could be more than just a "side project" of a few guys and the team would almost certainly grow in size. And if raids are done right they will keep more people playing and Anet makes more profit, enabling them to hire more people. And to the legendary armor: The reason why anet isn't really developing a fleshed out useful system for that, is because it's not worth wasting time and money on something almost no one uses. Legendary armor, like raids is just another small "side project" in the company right now, maybe there aren't even people working on anything related to the armor anymore. When raids are more accessible, more people would be able to get legendary armor, which means more people would complain about the armor and anet would not only see that enough people are using it but that enough people want them to change it. I mean imagine the thing that happened with the mount adoption licenses. Imagine if these licences were locked behind WvW rank 9000 or something ridiculous like that, so that only 1% of players had access to it? Do you think Anet would've responded so quickly to the complains of these 10 ppl on there forums? Do you think they would've openly issued an official statement, promising not to develop this idea further and admit that they were wrong? The numbers of people playing the content does matter in many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > For the rest, see my explanation in reply to Faaris above. In short, you won't get any more prepared by playing a hypothetical "easy mode raid" than you would from playing T4 FotM. Both won't make you ready. Only playing actual raids will. > > And that is where our observations differ. In my book, the tiered system in fractals works great. Many more people play fractals than do raids. I myself went through the tiers and learned a lot on the way up. And when you've done 100 in normal mode a lot of times, you are much better prepared for 100cm than if you hadn't done any fractals before. If fractals worked like raids, you would have to dive into the content with 100cm. Instead of half of GW2's population playing fractals regularly (estimate according to gw2efficiency numbers), you would have mayb 2% playing them. There is no "bad habits" taught by tuned down mechanics that cannot be changed quickly. We see this happen when players leave T3 and join T4. They got bad habits like ranging and using defensive gear and strategies. But They adapt quickly and you rarely see that happening in T4s. > > If you start playing basketball when you are young, and you use a normal weighted and sized ball for years, you might learn bad posture when throwing it. Your brain is in development and your muscle memory is forming in a very specific period of your life. When you are 20, it might even be too late to get rid of the bad posture/habit and you will have a very hard time getting better. But we are talking about simple mouse and key movements here done for a short period of time by people with mostly fully developed brains. You can adapt very quickly to changed environments. If your "bad habits" theory was reflecting reality, how could players even play different classes in this game? How could they change their rotation after a patch? I have several setups for my mouse keys, depending on the class I play. It just takes a few days for muscle memory to adapt. We are extremely adaptable beings, when you get a new mobile phone with a different operating system tomorrow, you'll handle it without looking within a week. I recently learned how to cut onions in a better way. All my life I was cutting onions in a specific way, a "bad habit" you might say. Guess what, I'm not a lost case, because I simply started cutting them in the way I was shown. And you really think if a player can survive an AoE in T3, he'll not learn to dodge after the first 3 attempts in T4? Still missing my point. Hypothetical low-tier raids will only teach you exactly the same things the high-tier fractals do already - combat basics, managing pressure, stuff like that. They can't teach you how to play properly the higher tier. Relaxed mechanics are effectively different mechanics. It's not that you can't change your habit, it's that you'll need basically the same time to do so than you would to learn it from scratch. Sure, you can get how a specific mechanic works in general, but you can do so by simply reading/watching a guide or by just playing the encounter itself. And even that won't make you prepared. You **need** to play the fight. You **need** to get exposed to the mechanics because you don't get to do them one at a time, they overlap and interact with each other and there's no meaningful way of explaining how to manage that interaction. Only actual play can teach you that. Actual play, with actual mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adenin.5973 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > For the rest, see my explanation in reply to Faaris above. In short, you won't get any more prepared by playing a hypothetical "easy mode raid" than you would from playing T4 FotM. Both won't make you ready. Only playing actual raids will. > > > > And that is where our observations differ. In my book, the tiered system in fractals works great. Many more people play fractals than do raids. I myself went through the tiers and learned a lot on the way up. And when you've done 100 in normal mode a lot of times, you are much better prepared for 100cm than if you hadn't done any fractals before. If fractals worked like raids, you would have to dive into the content with 100cm. Instead of half of GW2's population playing fractals regularly (estimate according to gw2efficiency numbers), you would have mayb 2% playing them. There is no "bad habits" taught by tuned down mechanics that cannot be changed quickly. We see this happen when players leave T3 and join T4. They got bad habits like ranging and using defensive gear and strategies. But They adapt quickly and you rarely see that happening in T4s. > > > > If you start playing basketball when you are young, and you use a normal weighted and sized ball for years, you might learn bad posture when throwing it. Your brain is in development and your muscle memory is forming in a very specific period of your life. When you are 20, it might even be too late to get rid of the bad posture/habit and you will have a very hard time getting better. But we are talking about simple mouse and key movements here done for a short period of time by people with mostly fully developed brains. You can adapt very quickly to changed environments. If your "bad habits" theory was reflecting reality, how could players even play different classes in this game? How could they change their rotation after a patch? I have several setups for my mouse keys, depending on the class I play. It just takes a few days for muscle memory to adapt. We are extremely adaptable beings, when you get a new mobile phone with a different operating system tomorrow, you'll handle it without looking within a week. I recently learned how to cut onions in a better way. All my life I was cutting onions in a specific way, a "bad habit" you might say. Guess what, I'm not a lost case, because I simply started cutting them in the way I was shown. And you really think if a player can survive an AoE in T3, he'll not learn to dodge after the first 3 attempts in T4? > > Still missing my point. > > Hypothetical low-tier raids will only teach you exactly the same things the high-tier fractals do already - combat basics, managing pressure, stuff like that. They can't teach you how to play properly the higher tier. Relaxed mechanics are effectively different mechanics. It's not that you can't change your habit, it's that you'll need basically the same time to do so than you would to learn it from scratch. Sure, you can get how a specific mechanic works in general, but you can do so by simply reading/watching a guide or by just playing the encounter itself. And even that won't make you prepared. You **need** to play the fight. You **need** to get exposed to the mechanics because you don't get to do them one at a time, they overlap and interact with each other and there's no meaningful way of explaining how to manage that interaction. Only actual play can teach you that. Actual play, with actual mechanics. That's just not true. The t1 fractal has some of the same mechanics as the t2, the t2 has some of the same mechanics as t3, the t3 has some of the same mechanics as t4. And in some cases the lower tiers have almost the same amount of mechanics, just the timers and margin of error is far more forgiving. When a boss at t4 has 5 mechanics you learned the first one at t1, the first and second at t2, three of them at t3 and when you enter t4 you have only to learn 2 more. The other mechanics are still there in t4, those that you already know. You do not have to learn everything at once in a massive clusterfuck of effects and aoes, where the only way to beat the boss is when you know all 5 mechanics and execute tasks without failing. That's not the way to start learning or even enjoying the game mode for 90-95% of the GW2 playerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Adenin.5973" said: > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > @"Adenin.5973" said: >And to the legendary armor: The reason why anet isn't really developing a fleshed out useful system for that, is because it's not worth wasting time and money on >something almost no one uses. Legendary armor, like raids is just another small "side project" in the company right now, maybe there aren't even people working on >anything related to the armor anymore. When raids are more accessible, more people would be able to get legendary armor, which means more people would complain >about the armor and anet would not only see that enough people are using it but that enough people want them to change it. > Maybe if they would have implemented a proper system from the start more people would craft them. The average number of Unlocked Legendary armor skins (not even the Full armor) is 3080. There are more people with Demons Demise. There are 463 People with Envoys Herald. Thats less than people with Voice in the Void. Those numbers are according to gw2efficiency. I got 1 set of Legendary armor. Only because a friend took pity on me and collected those damn provisioner tokens. Now i have a set of legendary armor with a skin i dont like (transmuted it) and an QoL feature i dont use. Even if i would like the skin i couldnt dye it properly. Legendary Armor was a slap in the face for many raiders. They said over and over that they would fix it and yet nothing happend. Id really like to actual use my legendary armor. Some of the combat transformations look really cool. Its a shame that the armor doesnt. > The numbers of people playing the content does matter in many ways. That i do agree with. Id really like seeing more players in raids. Thats why i train people every friday. Most of the time i dont even look for any KP or LI in pugs. Interestingly most people still ping LI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Still missing my point. > > Hypothetical low-tier raids will only teach you exactly the same things the high-tier fractals do already - combat basics, managing pressure, stuff like that. They can't teach you how to play properly the higher tier. Relaxed mechanics are effectively different mechanics. It's not that you can't change your habit, it's that you'll need basically the same time to do so than you would to learn it from scratch. Sure, you can get how a specific mechanic works in general, but you can do so by simply reading/watching a guide or by just playing the encounter itself. And even that won't make you prepared. You **need** to play the fight. You **need** to get exposed to the mechanics because you don't get to do them one at a time, they overlap and interact with each other and there's no meaningful way of explaining how to manage that interaction. Only actual play can teach you that. Actual play, with actual mechanics. I'm not missing your point, I provide evidence that your point is not valid. We are talking about accessibility of content. I've shown that the fractal tiers lead to more players doing fractals regularly (the numbers are in gw2efficiency, for example, about 10% of all players who registered there have Ad Infinitum). You are saying that tiers don't prepare players for the end game encounters, I showed that they do. Without tiers and only T4 and challenge mote fractals (raid difficulty), only a tiny amount of players would actually do them, like it is with raids. People don't ask for kill proofs when you want to join a group for T4 dailies. You can just hop in and either prove that you can do the content or not, which could result in a kick. Then you might want to go back to T3 and practice more. Without tiers, all T4 daily LFGs would ask for some kind of arbitrary proof that you are ready for the content, like it is with raids. And even the step from 100 normal mode to cm isn't that big. You expect the platforms at Arkk to vanish, you might just be surprised that they vanish much more quickly than in normal mode. The next time you know they'll vanish quickly. Tiers do make high end content more accessible, that is why I argue that adding raid tiers would be a good investment for Anet. People would flock to raids in lower tiers, and more people would eventually end up in the last tier that gives the stuff you need for the legendary armor. We've seen it in fractals, it could work for raids too. For Ad Infinitum you need to beat Mai Trin in T4 in under 25 minutes, most pugs suffer greatly there. And yet, 10% of the players have the backpack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 No mate, fractals are played more because they don't require that same effort. T4s you can phase from t3, from t2, etc. Because they are easy. It doesn't translate to cms and to raids, that's all. The mere fact that it doesn't translate from t4 to cms should tell you that it won't work with raid tiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 And just something more to add: it does NOT translate. I know it, because I've done it. I had Ad Infinitum and played t4s on a daily basis for months and months when cms were released. And when I tried a cm? I sucked at them. Everyone did, really, until they practiced them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > No mate, fractals are played more because they don't require that same effort. T4s you can phase from t3, from t2, etc. Because they are easy. It doesn't translate to cms and to raids, that's all. The mere fact that it doesn't translate from t4 to cms should tell you that it won't work with raid tiers. You make raids sound harder than they actually are. You can hop into wing 4 with a bunch of random players and kill stuff, not to mention Escort. And you can try the same with Twilight Oasis or Mai Trin, and will be surprised how many wipes you'll have to endure. I still don't see why the raid-specific mechanics cannot be tuned down. Can you elaborate that please? You can lower the damage, make the AoEs smaller, you can make spikes move slower and don't insta-kill you, prolong the phases to give players more time to do them. Make the green fields last longer and make them bigger, be more forgiving with the friend mechanic. Give more time on Xera's platforms and require less dps, whatever. Almost every mechanics I can think of has characteristics that can be tuned instead of only having a 0 or 1 switch. And even if you have to switch, what's wrong with it? Let the guys on the towers in Escort not push you down in low tiers. It really is the same as in Fractals. Maybe you need more imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > No, there isn't any difference. Because "annoying" and "frustrating" aren't objective qualities, they are subjective perception. That has nothing to do with what i was saying. As i mentioned already (and i hoped you have actually read before answering) the difference is not in the level of annoyance of the content itself. The difference lies in _return_ one can expect after suffering through that annoyance. In case of raids (again, as i have already said), you can fully expect to suffer through the annoyance and get _nothing_ in return. There's no casual approach here - you will need to invest a massive amount of effort (incomparable to any other content) before you can even _start_ walking on the road, and will need to invest even more for each step. Again, without any guarantees that the effort you invested won't see you walking in place without moving forward. So (again), _that_ is the difference. And no, that one is not subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (duplicate post, for some reason) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Magee.3092 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Got the armors and with exception of the heavy, I transmuted them. I didn't like them and others that I know who have them have done the same. Entry into all content is the same for everyone. Some people may have gone after it sooner than others. Nobody has a right to be in any group they don't want to be, so though some people may feel its unfair to bet booted (or not be wanted) in any given group, the folks in it have the right to associate with whomever they wish. Anet provides the content and everyone gets to decide if they want to partake - for fun, for skins or for laughs. I do not feel its their job to make everything available to everyone at every level of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assic.2746 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I actually like all the skins with the exception of medium armor "idle mode", but in "combat mode" it looks badass. I especially enjoy the animations of shoulderpads. Heavy armor is my favourite. I am happy I main guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman.5829 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I got my legendary gear from WvW a couple of months ago. For me, legendary gear is awesome because I constantly change stats and experiment with lots of different builds. I also play fractals and thanks to legendary gear stat swap is much easier to change if I want to start playing WvW all I have to do is click-choose and swap. Now, lets hope they implement the same features to legendary weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I made wvw leggy armor cause i play a lot of different wvw builds (light armor - necro, ele, mesmer in wvw). Cant have 3-4+ sets in my inventory for each char... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMO.4158 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > Got the armors and with exception of the heavy, I transmuted them. I didn't like them and others that I know who have them have done the same. > > Entry into all content is the same for everyone. Some people may have gone after it sooner than others. Nobody has a right to be in any group they don't want to be, so though some people may feel its unfair to bet booted (or not be wanted) in any given group, the folks in it have the right to associate with whomever they wish. > > Anet provides the content and everyone gets to decide if they want to partake - for fun, for skins or for laughs. I do not feel its their job to make everything available to everyone at every level of play. I disagree with your last statement. Anet should definitely decide who gets to be there and not elitist raiders that spilled over from other mmos. No individual player should dictate whether another player who also bought the game gets to do content or be rewarded for it. Ever. A working automated que system would solve most of the accessibility and community issues. If the game (Anet) is in charge of making groups then no one can apply their absurd requirements. And if the content is too difficult for 10 randoms to beat, then said content is over tuned for a game like this. Remember the reason why many of us like this game in the first place? If I wanted elitist dicks to control access to content I'd go back to playing world of raid craft. Quit playing for many years. Just started again this month and I'm disappointed there is even raid content to begin with. Raids simply don't suit this games philosophies imho or how it was originally marketed. And yes. Making content for the 1%ers is a waste of development time and money. Just zoning into that raid hub while exploring made me throw up in my mouth a bit. People leave raid centric trash for gw2 not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Magee.3092 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 > @"DMO.4158" said: > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > > Got the armors and with exception of the heavy, I transmuted them. I didn't like them and others that I know who have them have done the same. > > > > Entry into all content is the same for everyone. Some people may have gone after it sooner than others. Nobody has a right to be in any group they don't want to be, so though some people may feel its unfair to bet booted (or not be wanted) in any given group, the folks in it have the right to associate with whomever they wish. > > > > Anet provides the content and everyone gets to decide if they want to partake - for fun, for skins or for laughs. I do not feel its their job to make everything available to everyone at every level of play. > > I disagree with your last statement. > Anet should definitely decide who gets to be there and not elitist raiders that spilled over from other mmos. > > No individual player should dictate whether another player who also bought the game gets to do content or be rewarded for it. Ever. > > A working automated que system would solve most of the accessibility and community issues. > If the game (Anet) is in charge of making groups then no one can apply their absurd requirements. > And if the content is too difficult for 10 randoms to beat, then said content is over tuned for a game like this. > Remember the reason why many of us like this game in the first place? If I wanted elitist kitten to control access to content I'd go back to playing world of raid craft. > > Quit playing for many years. Just started again this month and I'm disappointed there is even raid content to begin with. Raids simply don't suit this games philosophies imho or how it was originally marketed. > > And yes. Making content for the 1%ers is a waste of development time and money. > Just zoning into that raid hub while exploring made me throw up in my mouth a bit. People leave raid centric trash for gw2 not the other way around. > Everyone, EVERYONE has the same access to the game areas they purchased. The limiting factor is the player (be it effort, skill, commitment etc.). No player is dictating what another player can get. They have the same opportunity to earn rewards as anyone else. People seem to think that other players must assist others and that is not how it works. The opportunity is the same for people to develop teams, relationships and plans for all the content. Raids are content like Fractals, Dungeons, PvP and WvW. I detest fractals. I find them tedious and boring. I choose not to do them. However, some collections I wanted to finish required that I do them. I had to decide, would I plow through something I didn't know and didn't like to get the shiney I did want? So, I put up some LFG to form groups to accomplish my set task. NEWB Fractal player looking for to get specific collection item It works, people joined and got it done. Raids were/are no different except they don't suck like Fractals. I didn't start on day one. Built a group with like minded individuals and figured it out. To many people are waiting for handouts from those who have put in the time and effort. I believe the elitists aren't the players who want specific players in their group, its the players who want to ride their coattails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeedyZeGreedy.8635 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Game of Bones.8975" said: > I've been looking for someone, anyone to have Legendary armor to see if it's worth the time. > > I think this is an example of being so restrictive that people don't care to try. With that in mind, it's a waste of ANET developers time and money to roll-out something that is of so little use to the masses. > > Or maybe it's that I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time and that there are hundreds of suits out there but I keep looking the wrong way. You know you can view it in wardrobe on whatever character you have? Just go search for perfected. I see full sets almost everyday when doing cm100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > No player is dictating what another player can get. They have the same opportunity to earn rewards as anyone else. People seem to think that other players must assist others and that is not how it works. The opportunity is the same for people to develop teams, relationships and plans for all the content. If you mean that nobody should be forced to carry bad players in instanced content, I'm with you. What I see in this game though is more and more complete absence of assistance in content like raids and also high tier fractals and more and more selfishness. There are lots of very helpful people in open world. They organize world boss events, take initiative in meta events, do HP runs, put up mentor tags to show locations and help with Jumping Puzzles and so on and so on. This is living the spirit of this game, where nothing is taken away from you when you do something together. You get the same amount of xp and loot. In open world, almost everything is a win win situation and it encourages people to play together. We take that for granted, but it's not how other games work. And then we have fractals and raids. It's the "hardest" content of the game, yes. But only compared to open world content, or "vanilla" how people call it. If you've raided in other games, you are anchored differently and GW2 endgame content doesn't look that hard anymore. Open world content doesn't give you the option to kick other members of the community. That is the big difference. You cannot keep anyone from participating in a meta event, no matter how much or little they participate. That's why 60% of the players doing the East Tarir part of the meta can afk and only 3 people actually fly bombs. And the meta doesn't fail because of that. It's tolerated, and you just do your thing because these afkers don't take anything away from you. If they logged out, you would still do the same actions and get the same rewards. Now, if those meta events were instanced, we would probably see the same discrimination as in fractals and raids. There might be Commanders showing up that want players who can show some proof that they know the mechanics. It's not about how hard content is, that's what I'm trying to say here. It's about being instanced and limited to 5/10 players. This leads to the feeling that you lose something if you have to carry a player. I once had a member of our party get the Endless Fractal Tonic as drop from a chest (at least he linked it and claimed he looted it). That player had to be carried, and after he left, another member noted that he didn't deserve that drop. The win of another player made that player feel like he missed out on something, and that he deserved the drop more. I never saw that kind of stuff happening when someone linked an ascended box after a world boss event. You can come late to the party and do little dps, and nobody will resent you for getting the lucky drop anyway. The way instanced content is designed and the nature of some human beings lead to the situation we have now in fractals and raids. Nobody is obliged to assist other players, but there seem to be incentives in this content that make players be less helpful. Sometimes players get kicked from the squad shortly before the raid boss is killed, just because they died. Nothing is taken away from the 9 other players by that, the total reward output is just lessened. There are exceptions to the rule, players who do assist and help in raids and fractals. Players who organize training runs and players who are not resentful when a member isn't up to the tier but the party still succeeded. The design of this content doesn't reward them though and certainly doesn't encourage friendly and helpful behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: Sometimes players get kicked from the squad shortly before the raid boss is killed, just because they died. Nothing is taken away from the 9 other players by that, the total reward output is just lessened. > Thats not possible anymore. You cant kick someone when the squad in fighting. They did it to prevent exactly this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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