Theory: Joko is trying to ascend by killing Kralkatorrik. The path of fire = flameseeker.

[Sublimatio.6981]

@op

1. Desmina is not one of the Reapers, she is Grenth's first priestess. Btw interesting quote from gw1: "These are the Ice Wastes, home to Grenth's eternal servants. It is said that the first worshipers of the god of death were rewarded for their fealty with icy immortality. They wander this place, forever on guard against intruders to the Underworld."

2. Balthazar is a fallen god, not former god, as stated by npcs or even the in-game journal. Not being one of the six doesn't mean you're not a god (for example Gaheron Baelfire would be a god without being one of the six). Same as Dhuum. He was just fallen, meaning he wasn't as powerful. The entire plot about "we gods cant fight Balthazar, it would destroy Tyria, but hey, we already removed all his power, replaced him and imprisoned" is ridiculous btw.

3. Immortality doesn't equal indestructibility in GW2 - we see this with most gods and all elder dragons. The only exceptions are Dhuum and Joko.

4. Kralkatorrik and Aurene didn't consume Balthazar's energy without leaking the excess - as we see in volatile magic spread around istan and presumably future LW4 maps (+ magic crazed bounties).

5. I don't know what do you mean about the ascension conspiracy. Ascension doesn't work anymore, since the gods left the mists and don't watch over Tyria from distance anymore. And even before that, the only thing Ascension gave in GW1 was pretty much allowing you to speak with Glint. There's no reason why would anyone seek ascension now, which is why I think Kaidenna and other Followers of Ascension have pretty sad storyline - they're so hopeful about something that doesn't exist. The only value is in the temple of Ascension, where the Flameseeker Prophecy is written. But that's only interesting to historians.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> @op

> 1. Desmina is not one of the Reapers, she is Grenth's first priestess. Btw interesting quote from gw1: "These are the Ice Wastes, home to Grenth's eternal servants. It is said that the first worshipers of the god of death were rewarded for their fealty with icy immortality. They wander this place, forever on guard against intruders to the Underworld."

 

That is a possibility. Either way, she is a person associated with Grenth. It is an interesting quote.

 

> 2. Balthazar is a fallen god...

> 5. I don't know what do you mean about the ascension conspiracy.

 

Falling and ascending are various levels of reaching the divine. Dhuum falls, Grenth ascends. Abbadon falls, and Kormir ascends. We ascended to the point where we could commune with the Gods but not the point where other powers had to fall. Balthazar wanted to kill the Elder Dragons to reach the power level where he could take revenge on the Gods. I'm suggesting that Joko might try a similar stunt and will be stopped, but Aurene will succeed.

 

Balthazar's Path of Fire and the flameseeker migrations both lead to the Crystal Desert in an attempt to ascend.

 

> 3. Immortality doesn't equal indestructibility in GW2 - we see this with most gods and all elder dragons. The only exceptions are Dhuum and Joko.

 

You are correct. But we don't know if Dhuum or Joko are indestructible.

 

> 4. Kralkatorrik and Aurene didn't consume Balthazar's energy without leaking the excess - as we see in volatile magic spread around istan and presumably future LW4 maps (+ magic crazed bounties).

 

You are correct. Interestingly you can collect it using a special bond you have with Aurene, whatever that means.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Scott McGough.6897" said:

> I didn’t write the line in question, but as the Narrative Lead I was involved in every aspect of its generation and inclusion in the game—the initial draft, repeated reviews, and its final journey through the Editorial and Loc departments before being shipped with Path of Fire.

>

> And thus I can say with 100% certainty that Kasmeer’s line “Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked,” refers exclusively and solely to Balthazar. Not Abbadon, nor anyone else: just Balthazar. She is using a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to Balthazar alone in a wry, understated manner.

>

> Functionally, she is saying, “As a rule, any gods like Balthazar, who abandon humanity, lay waste to a region, murder thousands of innocent civilians in the name of personal pride, and do the things I just listed in the previous line (killed Vlast, kidnapped Aurene, and threaten the entire world) deserve to have their immortality revoked.”

>

> The wry part is that there are no other gods who fit that description, so when she makes the general statement about “some gods” she in fact does mean and can only mean Balthazar.

>

 

_Thank you._

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> 2. Balthazar is a fallen god, not former god, as stated by npcs or even the in-game journal.

 

Technically false. He would be a former god, not a fallen god, as he was stripped of his divinity. ArenaNet does not differentiate between the two in their story writing as it is needless splitting of hairs - though it is important to note the difference.

 

Abaddon was a fallen god. He was imprisoned with his full might, but locked away in such a way that he could not utilize said might. He became a former god when Kormir usurped him - but he was also dead.

 

Balthazar and Dhuum, however, are former gods. Their divinity was stripped from them, they no longer cause mortals to go blind upon looking, and and had to regain power through alternative means (eating souls for Dhuum, siphoning from bloodstones and dragons for Balthazar). While Dhuum is confirmed to have a successor, Balthazar is very heavily implied.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> Not being one of the six doesn't mean you're not a god (for example Gaheron Baelfire would be a god without being one of the six).

 

Gaheron wasn't a god, however. Now, you're correct in saying that just because you're not one of the Six doesn't mean you cannot be a god - we know of potentially five beings that are classified as gods but not of the Six. However, what makes the Six to be "gods" is a very defined set of regulations which Dhuum and Balthazar were stripped of.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> And even before that, the only thing Ascension gave in GW1 was pretty much allowing you to speak with Glint.

 

Uhm, speaking with Glint actually had nothing to do with Ascension, though she did contact us only after we Ascended. Ascension did two things - the first was unlocking one's true magical potential (mechanically depicted by giving access to the 15-attribute quests), and the second was giving the Gift of True Sight (allowing one to see the mursaat and ghosts wanting to be hidden from mortal eyes - which to me says "see and interact partway into the Mists" - which is not too different from what havrouns can do, though they're granted their similar powers via the Spirits of the Wild and not gods or Celestials).

[Sublimatio.6981]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086"

That's why I said Gaheron "would be" a god - I didn't say he was. And just because Balthazar and Dhuum were former of the *Six*, doesn't mean they are bound to be former *gods*. They lost their title and divinity assosiated with being one of the Six, but that doesn't exclude them from godhood itself - just makes them fallen ones, lesser gods like the spirits of the wild or other gods. And I choose to believe it's not ANet's negligence in the choice of words and they truly mean they are fallen and not former.

Besides, I don't think any mortal could be capable of consuming this amount of magic without going insane (like Matthias for example) - it would have to be a being capable of storaging huge amounts of magic and that's an argument for Balthazar's and Dhuum's godhood.

 

You are right about Ascension though - it did indeed unlock magical potential and allow true sight, but true sight is overrated since apparently we don't need to ascend (something something https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Last_Chance#Dialogue) to get it. Though I assume only presence of the eye allowed us to see Lazarus.

How do you complete ascension though if it was technically about making the gods gaze at you and grant you divine fire? And you don't have the forgotten to pass the trials anymore. I don't think Kaidenna has any happy ending, I mean you have this thing about doppleganger but why would it grant ascension if there are no gods, and they're supposed to be the main component. It's kinda all over the place

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:

 

Except that Gaheron *wouldn't be* a god. Or more accurately, *couldn't* be one (in the situation that he was in, that is). And Dhuum and Balthazar *aren't* gods anymore once usurped.

 

A god in the GWverse isn't just some title that any being can take. And it isn't just a case of "a very powerful being" either. There are actual conditions that all gods seem to fulfill - the most universal that is even shared with demigod-like beings such as the Spirits of the Wild, is a deep connection to the Mists (note that while I do just relate them to "demigod-like beings", this is because there's no proper terminology and the Spirits of the Wild are far more than your typical ghost).

 

Dhuum and Balthazar losing their "divinity associated with being one of the Six" **does** exclude them from godhood by all known definitions of what godhood entails.

 

Unfortunately, we know nothing about the physiology of Koda, Mellaggan, Ameyalli, Zintl, and the (original) Great Dwarf, unlike the Six, so we cannot say with any amount of accuracy that they are indeed different. And there are no lesser gods at all - you are either a god, a demigod, or neither.

 

And the only examples of demigods we've gotten are [the Three Queens](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Three_Queens), which sadly, we know even less of than the non-Six gods. Though there was the dat-found [Abaddon's Children](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Dead_Children) which could give some insight into what a demigod could be. But that's not canon lore so it's a take-with-salt kind of thing.

 

The sole colloquial term to define this group of beings would be ["Mist beings"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project#At_Rata_Novus). But, annoyingly, too little context for the term, so it may be used to refer to a much much wider group than merely gods and god-like beings.

 

>@"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> And I choose to believe it's not ANet's negligence in the choice of words and they truly mean they are fallen and not former.

 

They do this a lot though. And I do mean a *lot*. They avoid being overly technical in their writing - especially when it comes to dates in the timeline -

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> Besides, I don't think any mortal could be capable of consuming this amount of magic without going insane (like Matthias for example) - it would have to be a being capable of storaging huge amounts of magic and that's an argument for Balthazar's and Dhuum's godhood.

 

Explain Kormir then.

 

But you are right, actually. It's pretty heavily hinted that even if they once were mortals, the beings known as gods are no longer so. In Season 2, we got this:

 

> I risked my life many times for Kormir, but she got what every great warrior deserves. She died courageously.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Koss_on_Koss_(book)

 

In Season 3, we got this:

 

> Scanner: No—life—detected. Only—magic—energy—present.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)

 

Dhuum never looked very alive in either game, but in Hall of Chains, he's literally magic energy in a suit. When Balthazar dies, his skin peels away to show just bones beneath the skin - no blood, no muscle, no veins.

 

All this implies that when someone ascends into godhood by absorbing the very-much-not-normal-magic that defines what makes a being a god, their very physiology changes to adapt to housing this magic. The original mortal "dies" and becomes an altered vessel for it, their mind melding with the prior god (or gods, it may even be). The mind melding may differ when the predecessor survives the succession, or maybe not...

 

Point being, Balthazar *is* more than mortal in Path of Fire... but he's not a god either. He would be, at best, a demigod.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> You are right about Ascension though - it did indeed unlock magical potential and allow true sight, but true sight is overrated since apparently we don't need to ascend (something something https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Last_Chance#Dialogue) to get it. Thought I assume only presence of the eye allowed us to see Lazarus.

> How do you complete ascension though if it was technically about making the gods gaze at you and grant you divine fire? And you don't have the forgotten to pass the trials anymore. I don't think Kaidenna has any happy ending, I mean you have this thing about doppleganger but why would it grant ascension if there are no gods, and they're supposed to be the main component. It's kinda all over the place

 

Well on Lazarus - the Eye was giving a *temporary* gift of True Sight (this is why we had to repeatedly bash the Eye into unleashing its power). It's more that the Eye had the Gift of True Sight, and the power to temporarily grant the power to others nearby if and only if they were Chosen.

 

As for completing Ascension - while humans did proclaim it had to do with getting the attention of the gods, one of the charr Followers argues that it has nothing to do with the gods in actuality. Though I'm not sure how accurate his argument is - that said, the doppleganger showing up does lead credence to his argument since killing the Doppleganger was the last part of Ascending. I'm not sure we can be so sure, with all the retcons left and right, how involved the gods *actually* are. For all we know, Turai invoked an ancient Forgotten ritual that had nothing to do with the gods to get that divine fire.

 

Either way, people don't know the gods are no longer watching or gone, until after Path of Fire. The revelation that the gods left may result in the Followers of Ascension largely abandoning their cause.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Except that Gaheron *wouldn't be* a god. Or more accurately, *couldn't* be one (in the situation that he was in, that is). And Dhuum and Balthazar *aren't* gods anymore once usurped.

Well in the story, we actually interrupted Gaheron from becoming a god and he was very close to it. Even if you think there is a set of rules to be one.

> A god in the GWverse isn't just some title that any being can take. And it isn't just a case of "a very powerful being" either. There are actual conditions that all gods seem to fulfill - the most universal that is even shared with demigod-like beings such as the Spirits of the Wild, is a deep connection to the Mists (note that while I do just relate them to "demigod-like beings", this is because there's no proper terminology and the Spirits of the Wild are far more than your typical ghost).

>

> Dhuum and Balthazar losing their "divinity associated with being one of the Six" **does** exclude them from godhood by all known definitions of what godhood entails.

>

> Unfortunately, we know nothing about the physiology of Koda, Mellaggan, Ameyalli, Zintl, and the (original) Great Dwarf, unlike the Six, so we cannot say with any amount of accuracy that they are indeed different. And there are no lesser gods at all - you are either a god, a demigod, or neither.

And here is what is inconsistent about your theories - we don't know if other gods than the six are bound by the same sets of rules, we have limited knowledge and yet you make assumptions based only on what the six can or cannot do. You don't know if Gaheron has to have connection to the mists if you don't know if the other gods have it too. And you don't know if the connection to the mists is gained upon becoming a god - another case supporting Gaheron's godhood-validity. Oh wait, actually we do know that - Kormir didn't earn connection with the mists until after she became a goddess. The only connection she had was Abaddon showing her visions in order to use her.

> The sole colloquial term to define this group of beings would be ["Mist beings"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project#At_Rata_Novus). But, annoyingly, too little context for the term, so it may be used to refer to a much much wider group than merely gods and god-like beings.

Perspective of an asura teenager isn't really credible info. She probably said that because it was common knowledge at the time that Six Gods lived in the mists. That doesn't mean every god has to follow this example.

> >@"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > And I choose to believe it's not ANet's negligence in the choice of words and they truly mean they are fallen and not former.

>

> They do this a lot though. And I do mean a *lot*. They avoid being overly technical in their writing - especially when it comes to dates in the timeline -

> Explain Kormir then.

Apart from being blessed by the gods directly? She was hand-picked by them. And as you said (and she in her journal) - she is no longer human, her human form disintegrated.

 

> Well on Lazarus - the Eye was giving a *temporary* gift of True Sight (this is why we had to repeatedly bash the Eye into unleashing its power). It's more that the Eye had the Gift of True Sight, and the power to temporarily grant the power to others nearby if and only if they were Chosen.

That's what I said.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> Well in the story, we actually interrupted Gaheron from becoming a god and he was very close to it. Even if you think there is a set of rules to be one.

Untrue. Gaheron and the Flame Legion *already believed him to be a god*. There was no further step for Gaheron. The entire purpose of the dungeon was that the High Legions had heard that Gaheron had developed (past tense) a powerful weapon. This weapon turns out to be his "god form". While he was indeed very powerful, and nigh indestructible with that magically conjured armor, he was still 100% mortal.

 

And there is nothing in the story to indicate he was ever close to becoming god-like or even greater than simply a "very powerful wizard".

 

> And here is what is inconsistent about your theories - we don't know if other gods than the six are bound by the same sets of rules, we have limited knowledge and yet you make assumptions based only on what the six can or cannot do. You don't know if Gaheron has to have connection to the mists if you don't know if the other gods have it too. And you don't know if the connection to the mists is gained upon becoming a god - another case supporting Gaheron's godhood-validity. Oh wait, actually we do know that - Kormir didn't earn connection with the mists until after she became a goddess. The only connection she had was Abaddon showing her visions in order to use her.

 

The unknown isn't an inconsistency. I even bloody damn well admit that there's a few too many unknowns to know which characteristics are shared with the other gods beyond the connections to the Mists. And we **do** know that the non-Six gods and god-like beings that show any presence in Tyria have connections to the Mists - things like granting individuals with the ability to create passages into the Mists (like the Avatars, Havrouns, and Voices). Something that Balthazar seems incapable of doing all the time, given that he required Joko's aid to get into the Domain of the Lost for souls. Something Dhuum seems incapable of doing given that he wanted to break out into Tyria, but couldn't.

 

> Perspective of an asura teenager isn't really credible info. She probably said that because it was common knowledge at the time that Six Gods lived in the mists. That doesn't mean every god has to follow this example.

 

You... do realize that it wasn't Taimi who used the term "Mist beings"... right? Did you even read the link?

 

Besides that, yes. It kind of does. Not because of that line, but because the lore around every other god follows that example:

 

* The Great Dwarf resides in the Great Forge.

* Raven has domain over the Underworld, alongside Grenth. The other Spirits of the Wild have domain over some part of the Mists too, as shown via havrouns.

* The Six each have their own domain within the Mists, and have ties to the Rift too.

* Koda has ties to the Mists, seemingly coming from there.

 

Zintl and Ameyali are a bit of an oddity, since it's left ambiguous if they're actual entities, or just natural phenomena given anthropomorphic qualities. Zintl is the Sun, but is it the Sun or something more? Ameyali is called the jungle, the PC even once says "Ameyali, what we call Maguuma, [...]" to an itzel. So it's unclear if there are gods to contend with there or not. But even if there is - the stars, which would include the sun, are [tied to the Mists]().

 

Which just leaves Mellaggan, which indeed doesn't seem to hold ties to the Mists... unless the hints that Mellaggan = Melandru hold true.

 

> Apart from being blessed by the gods directly? She was hand-picked by them. And as you said (and she in her journal) - she is no longer human, her human form disintegrated.

 

Changed. Her body was not disintegrated, but changed. Presuming that all of the Six of every generation is like Abaddon and Balthazar, at least.

 

But she was still a mortal who absorbed a ton of magic, which you said cannot happen hence why I brought it up, to prove that, even if under special circumstances, it *can* happen. And there's still no solid indication that the blessing was more than mere words (I like to think it was, but it's left in the open).

 

However, let's assuming that the blessing was indeed an actual blessing and not mere words of decouragement. If it were, then your point about Gaheron would be innately debunked. He could not become a god, because a normal mortal cannot ascend into godhood by simply taking in a ton of magic - they go mad and become an abomination, like Matthias and Caudecus. Gaheron's attempt at godhood was to transform his body through - to quote the Flame Legion, the "purity of flame". He had nothing more than a lot of powerful, but ultimately normal and mortal magic. The kind of magic that sends mortals insane and dependent upon it if over exposed.

 

Seems far more likely, given all lore around magic, that Gaheron was in an inadvertent track to suicide rather than godhood.

 

> That's what I said.

Not really. What you said "true sight is overrated since apparently we don't need to ascend" and "thought I assume only presence of the eye allowed us to see Lazarus."

 

I clarified the situation. Yes, the Eye did indeed grant True Sight. No, it is not overrated. The Eye could only grant us True Sight because we, apparently, are Chosen.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > Well in the story, we actually interrupted Gaheron from becoming a god and he was very close to it. Even if you think there is a set of rules to be one.

> Untrue. Gaheron and the Flame Legion *already believed him to be a god*. There was no further step for Gaheron. The entire purpose of the dungeon was that the High Legions had heard that Gaheron had developed (past tense) a powerful weapon. This weapon turns out to be his "god form". While he was indeed very powerful, and nigh indestructible with that magically conjured armor, he was still 100% mortal.

He was mortal at the time, but we don't know if there was a further step for Gaheron. We only know that he belived he can reach godhood and yes, he spoke like he already thought of himself as of god - but that's just his delusional and egotistic personality. Not related to actual transcendence that *could* happen. We don't know and you can only speculate.

> And there is nothing in the story to indicate he was ever close to becoming god-like or even greater than simply a "very powerful wizard".

And nothing that he wasn't close. Maybe his godform was incomplete and thats why it was vulnerable to his own attacks? But Balthazar was vulnerable to Sohothin (his own magic) as well so that's not unusual to defeat gods with their own magic.

> The unknown isn't an inconsistency. I even bloody kitten well admit that there's a few too many unknowns to know which characteristics are shared with the other gods beyond the connections to the Mists. And we **do** know that the non-Six gods and god-like beings that show any presence in Tyria have connections to the Mists - things like granting individuals with the ability to create passages into the Mists (like the Avatars, Havrouns, and Voices). Something that Balthazar seems incapable of doing all the time, given that he required Joko's aid to get into the Domain of the Lost for souls. Something Dhuum seems incapable of doing given that he wanted to break out into Tyria, but couldn't.

Dhuum could break into mortal realm - he already did via his minions. And would do so himself physically if we didn't stop him.

Also we don't have any evidence of Gaheron's lack of connection to the mists - so we cannot assume anything. He could have a connection or maybe he didn't have. And maybe he would get it until after transcending, as I speculated earlier.

 

> You... do realize that it wasn't Taimi who used the term "Mist beings"... right? Did you even read the link?

I only glanced over without looking at the npc name, but still it's a regular asura.

> Besides that, yes. It kind of does. Not because of that line, but because the lore around every other god follows that example:

>

> * The Great Dwarf resides in the Great Forge.

> * Raven has domain over the Underworld, alongside Grenth. The other Spirits of the Wild have domain over some part of the Mists too, as shown via havrouns.

> * The Six each have their own domain within the Mists, and have ties to the Rift too.

> * Koda has ties to the Mists, seemingly coming from there.

First of all, every being has ties to the mists. It's the number one rule of GW universe that everything comes from the mists. So pretty irrelevant. High magical power only allows you to commune/explore/journey through it. God-Magic unlocks abilities, not ties. Everyone is tied by default. Even powerful mortals have enough magic to travel through mists (Odran, havrouns, revenants, necromancers, probably ritualists etc).

> Zintl and Ameyali are a bit of an oddity, since it's left ambiguous if they're actual entities, or just natural phenomena given anthropomorphic qualities. Zintl is the Sun, but is it the Sun or something more? Ameyali is called the jungle, the PC even once says "Ameyali, what we call Maguuma, [...]" to an itzel. So it's unclear if there are gods to contend with there or not. But even if there is - the stars, which would include the sun, are [tied to the Mists]().

So all gods follow that example or not?

Btw starts aren't all tied to the mists (except that everything is tied to the mists). We see stars in the world Tyria, and we see them in fractals. So it's not mutually exclusive - Zintl can be core-tyrian. We also see stars in raid 4 but there's nothing saying it's mist-related, only that it's as if this place was like skin of the world or something like that (don't remember Glenna's quote). It may indicate the alternate plane of mursaat. But the real truth is ANET loves galaxy patterns.

> Which just leaves Mellaggan, which indeed doesn't seem to hold ties to the Mists... unless the hints that Mellaggan = Melandru hold true.

So all gods follow that example or not?

 

> But she was still a mortal who absorbed a ton of magic, which you said cannot happen hence why I brought it up, to prove that, even if under special circumstances, it *can* happen. And there's still no solid indication that the blessing was more than mere words (I like to think it was, but it's left in the open).

"And to you, Kormir, a most special gift." - Idk seems like a solid indication that it's pretty special.

 

> > That's what I said.

> Not really. What you said "true sight is overrated since apparently we don't need to ascend" and "thought I assume only presence of the eye allowed us to see Lazarus."

> I clarified the situation. Yes, the Eye did indeed grant True Sight. No, it is not overrated. The Eye could only grant us True Sight because we, apparently, are Chosen.

I said "only presence of the eye allowed us to see Lazarus"

You quoted that and said "The eye was giving a temporary gift of true sight"

I quoted that and said "That's what I said" - because that's what I said. We didn't talk about the other part of my message until you now decided to bring it up. Besides, whether it's overrated or not is an opinion, not a fact. And if you really were to argue, Livia herself said that mursaat's ability to become invisible *used to* be impressive.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@"Sublimatio.6981" @"Konig Des Todes.2086"

Kasmeer said gods not Gods. Taxonomy is based on science, not third party accounts.

 

For instance the classification of lesser pandas is discussed using chromosomal analysis, blood work, a substantive fossil record, behavioral observations, dissection, ecological/foraging specialization analysis, and finally molecular phylogenetics.

 

Having a discussion on lesser gods using cinematics, and clear textual descriptions of less than twenty examples is not an objective exploration. And, given how little information we received after Zinn dissected a Seer, this discussion will never be resolved without another divine intervention by the writers.

 

All we know is Balthazar was not considered a god when he died. We don't know what mathematical measurement they were using. And since no one using the phrase was omnipotent at the time, we still have no objective confirmation.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Explain Kormir then.

 

 

Kormir didn't just went in and absorb abaddon's magic just because she wanted, she did it because only she could, after all the gods gave her a "special gift" back in the gates of madness which allowed her to absorb a god's power. What this gift was exactly we never knew, but without that gift, kormir would have probably been vaporized by that power.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

 

> All we know is Balthazar was not considered a god when he died.

we literally are told that "kralkatorrik absorbed the magic of a dead god and went on rampage" or something like that. it's in the story journal i think

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

>

> > All we know is Balthazar was not considered a god when he died.

> we literally are told that "kralkatorrik absorbed the magic of a dead god and went on rampage" or something like that. it's in the story journal i think

 

There is a style convention where the word god and goddess are not capitalized when referring to ancient mythologies. https://www.thoughtco.com/god-or-god-to-capitalize-or-not-to-capitalize-249823

 

This produces confusion in sentences like this:

> Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal.

Because we know of things known as dragons that are not beyond the gods.

 

And in errors sentences like this:

> Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

> : Stripped of... He's in Tyria as we speak, leading an army. He claims to be the god of war.

 

we should have said "he claims to be the 'God of War'" Because Kormir just explained there is a title component.

[Sublimatio.6981]

I think you're trying too hard to determine what anet meant by writing god with or without capital letter. We were told he was a god when he died so that's what happened. I don't really care if the word god has capital letter in it. you don't have to be The God of War to be considered a god. Besides, real people write these dialogues so take it with a grain of salt.

[ugrakarma.9416]

I have a similar bet I posted on some topic.

 

the whole thing of the awakened attacking the cities is only a distraction to attract the Pact and other forces to Elona, then lure they to fight Kralkatorrik. if the Elder Dragon wipe them, Joko will have a free hand to invade Tyria. if the Pact wipe Kralkatorrik, Joko will try absord the dragon energy and become a half-god.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> He was mortal at the time, but we don't know if there was a further step for Gaheron. We only know that he belived he can reach godhood and yes, he spoke like he already thought of himself as of god - but that's just his delusional and egotistic personality. Not related to actual transcendence that *could* happen. We don't know and you can only speculate.

> > And there is nothing in the story to indicate he was ever close to becoming god-like or even greater than simply a "very powerful wizard".

> And nothing that he wasn't close. Maybe his godform was incomplete and thats why it was vulnerable to his own attacks? But Balthazar was vulnerable to Sohothin (his own magic) as well so that's not unusual to defeat gods with their own magic.

> > The unknown isn't an inconsistency. I even bloody kitten well admit that there's a few too many unknowns to know which characteristics are shared with the other gods beyond the connections to the Mists. And we **do** know that the non-Six gods and god-like beings that show any presence in Tyria have connections to the Mists - things like granting individuals with the ability to create passages into the Mists (like the Avatars, Havrouns, and Voices). Something that Balthazar seems incapable of doing all the time, given that he required Joko's aid to get into the Domain of the Lost for souls. Something Dhuum seems incapable of doing given that he wanted to break out into Tyria, but couldn't.

> Dhuum could break into mortal realm - he already did via his minions. And would do so himself physically if we didn't stop him.

> Also we don't have any evidence of Gaheron's lack of connection to the mists - so we cannot assume anything. He could have a connection or maybe he didn't have. And maybe he would get it until after transcending, as I speculated earlier.

 

Regarding Gaheron: You're right. There's nothing to say Gaheron wasn't close to godhood. Except the entire lack of anything even close to hinting such was the case. Your very argument is no different than saying "there's nothing to say that Jennah isn't actually Queen Salma!" Or any tinfoil hat theory. There is **no evidence** at all to support your claim. But this *is* a case where the lacking of evidence is evidence of lacking.

 

You might as well tell me that the deep sea dragon's actual name truly is Bubbles.

 

It's even pretty heavily hinted (if not outright stated) that most if not all of Gaheron's power, including the fact he nearly came back to life, was tied directly to the Eternal Flame. Once that was destroyed, the last vestiges of Gaheron's power vanished without a trace. That would make Gaheron no different than Xera, who's power was directly tied to the Maguuma Bloodstone. Makes her more powerful than most mortals, but she was still a mortal. Likewise Gaheron was more powerful than most mortals, but still fully mortal and not ascending into godhood.

 

Regarding Dhuum: Neither Dhuum nor his minions breached into Tyria. They utilized pre-existing portals to do so. **Very** different.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> I only glanced over without looking at the npc name, but still it's a regular asura.

 

"It's not human therefore I dismiss its comment on human culture" is not a solid argument. And it's not just a regular asura but a scientist that has, for a few months at that point, been helping to study the nature of ley lines at Rata Novus.

 

Besides, that asura didn't coin the term Mist beings. She's repeating what she learned elsewhere. Someone else dubbed the Six Gods to be "Mist beings".

 

And if we're just going to dismiss a learned scientist because she's no one seemingly important and we don't know where she gets her fact, we can dismiss every single NPC in existence, for they may be wrong or liars indeed.

 

At which point, why are we even here?

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> First of all, every being has ties to the mists. It's the number one rule of GW universe that everything comes from the mists. So pretty irrelevant. High magical power only allows you to commune/explore/journey through it. God-Magic unlocks abilities, not ties. Everyone is tied by default. Even powerful mortals have enough magic to travel through mists (Odran, havrouns, revenants, necromancers, probably ritualists etc).

 

Everything can "trace its origins" to the Mists. Not that they come from the Mists. There's a pretty huge difference. That's also no different than me saying my great grandparents come from Sicily, therefore I have direct ties to Sicily. I do not. Humans in Tyria do not have connections to the Mists - they cannot open portals willy nilly, they do not hold domain over a portion of the Mists. They do not live in the Mists.

 

That is what I meant when I said "ties to the Mists". Not "somewhere in their ancestry millions of years back is an individual which was created by the Mists". I mean "they are literally, directly, currently tied to the Mists."

 

To your last line: Havrouns get this power through divine-like beings. Necromancers, ritualists, revenants cannot travel the Mists. Odran only could by mass sacrifices, which we [have learned](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speaker_of_the_Dead) to result in a weakening between Tyria and the Mists and [generally](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Remains_of_the_Northern_Wall) [creating](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak%27s_Rest) [magically potent](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tamini_Place_of_Power) [locations](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Krait_Altar) - so it isn't so much that Odran was tied to the Mists, so much as he created a rift by exploiting souls' ties to the Mists (this is similar to what happened at Godslost Swamp).

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> So all gods follow that example or not?

> Btw starts aren't all tied to the mists (except that everything is tied to the mists). We see stars in the world Tyria, and we see them in fractals. So it's not mutually exclusive - Zintl can be core-tyrian. We also see stars in raid 4 but there's nothing saying it's mist-related, only that it's as if this place was like skin of the world or something like that (don't remember Glenna's quote). It may indicate the alternate plane of mursaat. But the real truth is ANET loves galaxy patterns.

 

And where do you think alternate planes would exist? When you're on the edge of the world, you enter the Mists. The Mists is the GWverse's combined state of afterlife, outer space, and a continuous big bang.

 

Scholar Glenna: Have you noticed the star fields? Felt the celestial energy?

Scholar Glenna: It's like this place is on **the edge of our place.** Like we're touching the skin of Tyria.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Glenna_(Bastion_of_the_Penitent)#Dialogue

 

(Aside from this dialogue, there is the Deimos fight where a person is dragged into some sort of shadow realm in the Mists, IIRC)

 

Scholar Yissa: I believe they used their spellcasting to slip beneath the skin of the world, **out of phase with Tyria.**

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Yissa

 

Randall Greyston: Indeed. They worked together once, but the mursaat betrayed the other races and **fled from the world,** returning as the Unseen Ones.

 

Scholar Yissa: Hmm. Yet the mursaat took their knowledge and fled into **a half-world, out of phase with our own.**

Scholar Yissa: They would have let the rest of the world die just to save themselves. Huh. Just like the Inquest.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_(explorable)

 

To flee from the world means to enter the Mists. The mursaat only fled partway out of the world.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> So all gods follow that example or not?

 

Every god we have any knowledge of does. And of the three we have next to no knowledge of, two are heavily implied to.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> "And to you, Kormir, a most special gift." - Idk seems like a solid indication that it's pretty special.

 

Apparently not:

Kormir: They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?

[...]

Kormir: We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars.

 

Because even Kormir, who apparently got this blessing , was convinced the avatars did nothing but spout words and no more.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> There is a style convention where the word god and goddess are not capitalized when referring to ancient mythologies. https://www.thoughtco.com/god-or-god-to-capitalize-or-not-to-capitalize-249823

> -snip rest-

 

The word "god" is only ever capitalized when as a specific title such as God-King or as the monotheistic individual also known as Yehweh.

 

In polytheistic faiths, like the Six Gods, the word would be lowercased even when talking about "the god of death" or "the god of war".

 

That said, while your reasoning is wrong, your explanation is ironically correct.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> We were told he was a god when he died so that's what happened.

No we weren't.

 

From Facing the Truth

> Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.

> Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

> : Stripped of... He's in Tyria as we speak, leading an army. He claims to be the god of war.

> Kormir: Come and see for yourselves. Perhaps then you'll understand.

> Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.

> Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.

> Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity... Or rather, most of us chose to.

> Balthazar: Cowards. You may flee, but I will not. I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict.

> Balthazar: The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power.

> Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal.

> Kormir: Whether he won or lost—by his death or theirs—Balthazar's ambitions would bring about the end of Tyria.

> Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.

> Balthazar: If you won't join the fight against the dragons, I'll see you all burn with them!

> Balthazar: Cowards! ALL OF YOU!

> Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

 

Kormir is the most qualified expert on Godhood in the entire franchise. Not only is she the Goddess of Truth and Knowlede, she is also the only past/present member of her pantheon known to have ascended from complete mortality into complete divinity. However she is not and cannot be an expert on godhood. Neither she nor her predeccesor participated in splitting the Bloodstones, nor did anyone in her pantheon create the first bloodstone. Moreover Elder Dragons are beyond her Pantheon in power.

 

We are a novice on Godhood. We learned a little after taking with Kormir but clearly not enough. We refer to the death of a prior god of the fire and war domains as the death of the god of those domains. And later in the story the PC doesn't even recognize Desmina's name

 

> You don't have to be The God of War to be considered a god.

 

That is correct. But no one has the authority for such consideration.

We are idiots and Kormir is only able to speak on her pantheon.

 

> Besides, real people write these dialogues so take it with a grain of salt.

Ditto.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > I must have been the only person who did not overlook the point in PoF where Kasmeer basically went "you know what, screw the gods, we don't need them anyways."

> >

> > Lady Kasmeer Meade: But it's time we stand on our own. Tyria is ours to protect. I know that now.

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth

> >

> > Or when she, almost literally, said "kitten you Balthazar".

> >

> > Lady Kasmeer Meade: Balthazar killed you—my commander. He killed Vlast and kidnapped Aurene. He would destroy my homeland in pursuit of revenge.

> > Lady Kasmeer Meade: Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked.

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast_of_War#Dialogue

>

> I bet she wouldn't spit on Desmina. And its funny you bring the second quote up. While she is referencing Abbadon, the only immortal left on Tyria who calls themselves a God is Joko.

 

What I want to know is why no one spells Abaddon's name right.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> What I want to know is why no one spells Abaddon's name right.

 

Because he's ABBA's don.

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> What I want to know is why no one spells Abaddon's name right.

Because they Abaddoned all hope of doing so.

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>> @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

>>There is a style convention where the word god and goddess are not capitalized when referring to ancient mythologies. https://www.thoughtco.com/god-or-god to-capitalize-or-not-to-capitalize-249823 -snip rest-

> The word "god" is only ever capitalized when as a specific title such as God-King or as the monotheistic individual also known as Yehweh.

> That said, while your reasoning is wrong, your explanation is ironically correct.

 

It's not irony, my reasoning wasn't clear enough. The confusion I mentioned is because the people writing/transcribing dialogue often reflexively use the first rule without realizing the implications. Or they write what the PC heard. Both confuse players unnecessarily.

 

This line is the most frustrating.

> Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal.

 

* They transcribed the Goddess of Truth and Knowledge talking to Aurene's champion, and no one thought it was a bad idea to write dragons in lowercase.

* No one thought, hmm that's weird, isn't Kuunavang a dragon? Wasn't he trapped by the Jade Wind?

* Aren't both Elder Dragons and Gods basically zero-sum divisions of six? Why are we referring to them using the general sets?

 

Regardless. We do know 100% is Balthazar is not a former god. He died a former member of the Six, but still a god.

 

> And thus I can say with 100% certainty that Kasmeer’s line “Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked,” refers exclusively and solely to Balthazar. Not Abbadon, nor anyone else: just Balthazar. **She is using a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to Balthazar alone in a wry, understated manner.**

> The wry part is that there are **no _other_ gods who fit** that description, so when she makes the general statement about “some gods” she in fact does mean and can only mean Balthazar.

 

@"Sublimatio.6981" is fully entitled to question whether Gaheron was a god but cannot question whether he was a God.

 

I.e that Gaheron's divinity is somewhere between before 0 and .5

* 0 = completely mortal.,

* .5 = half a member of the Six, e.g Ilya or Lyss

* 1 = full member of the Six, e.g Dwayna

 

And since there are infinite numbers between 0 and .5 good luck.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> It's not irony, my reasoning wasn't clear enough.

 

No, the irony is pretty clear given the opening post and arguments that suffered after until Scott chimed in.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> * They transcribed the Goddess of Truth and Knowledge talking to Aurene's champion, and no one thought it was a bad idea to write dragons in lowercase.

> * No one thought, hmm that's weird, isn't Kuunavang a dragon? Wasn't he trapped by the Jade Wind?

> * Aren't both Elder Dragons and Gods basically zero-sum divisions of six? Why are we referring to them using the general sets?

 

It's pretty blatantly clear in the context that "the dragons" being referred to here are "the Elder Dragons". The words don't get capitalized if it's just "dragons" - only when it's "Elder Dragons".

 

And gods are not a zero-sum division of six. Elder Dragons *seem* to be, but may not necessarily be so either. Besides, the Elder Dragons and their champions are the only dragons that most Tyrians know about anymore. Even Kormir never met Kuunavang, and she would also know that Tyrians don't care about an ancient dragon of unclear origin and unknown current state of being so as to clarify which dragons she spoke of.

 

Further, Aurene, Vlast, and Glint are/were all capable of becoming Elder Dragons. So they actually *do* fall under the same categorization as the Elder Dragons, it's just that they haven't reached the point where they're beyond the gods (but this is also true for some Elder Dragons, given the rise and fall of Elder Dragon power levels dependent on how much magic they've obtained). And given that Kuunavang was put on par with Glint even post-reveal as Kralkatorrik's champion, it's not unreasonable to think maybe Kuunavang is similar enough even if never corrupted.

 

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Regardless. We do know 100% is Balthazar is not a former god. He died a former member of the Six, but still a god.

>

> > And thus I can say with 100% certainty that Kasmeer’s line “Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked,” refers exclusively and solely to Balthazar. Not Abbadon, nor anyone else: just Balthazar. **She is using a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to Balthazar alone in a wry, understated manner.**

> > The wry part is that there are **no _other_ gods who fit** that description, so when she makes the general statement about “some gods” she in fact does mean and can only mean Balthazar.

 

The very explanation of that dialogue by Scott should make it pretty clear that in this case, the dialogue and therefore the explanation of the dialogue, is referring to anyone who was and is a god. Not just those who currently are gods.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> @"Sublimatio.6981" is fully entitled to question whether Gaheron was a god but cannot question whether he was a God.

>

> I.e that Gaheron's divinity is somewhere between before 0 and .5

> * 0 = completely mortal.,

> * .5 = half a member of the Six, e.g Ilya or Lyss

> * 1 = full member of the Six, e.g Dwayna

>

> And since there are infinite numbers between 0 and .5 good luck.

 

No, that's not how things work. You either are or you are not. We're not talking genealogy where you can be 5% Native American and 50% Caucasian and 45% Latino. Lyss and Ilya are not even "half a member of the Six" - you are either a member of the Six or you are not.

 

It's not a percentage. It's a Boolean.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > * They transcribed the Goddess of Truth and Knowledge talking to Aurene's champion, and no one thought it was a bad idea to write dragons in lowercase.

> > * No one thought, hmm that's weird, isn't Kuunavang a dragon? Wasn't he trapped by the Jade Wind?

> > * Aren't both Elder Dragons and Gods basically zero-sum divisions of six? Why are we referring to them using the general sets?

>

> It's pretty blatantly clear in the context that "the dragons" being referred to here are "the Elder Dragons".

>

 

The context is not limited to the immediate setting.

 

Kormir is the Goddess of Truth and Knowledge. Less than 100% clarity is wrong.

 

Kasmeer was religious

> ...a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to [a single past/current member] in a wry, understated manner.

 

This is known by various words depending on what class you are using but all have very serious repercussions in our reality. In this case, the word is hubris.

 

> As a rule, any gods like Balthazar, who abandon humanity, lay waste to a region, murder thousands of innocent civilians in the name of personal pride, and do the things I just listed in the previous line (killed Vlast, kidnapped Aurene, and threaten the entire world) deserve to have their immortality revoked.

 

This is hubris at a much higher level and would have guaranteed Kasmeer's death if GW Gods were much more capricious. But they aren't, so why is Kasmeer being wry? Just say Balthazar, or delete the word gods from the sentence. Her opinion on hypothetical future members is not only unneccesary, it undermines her character.

 

It's one thing if someone has been hurt by various members of a group over the years, and might be thinking of the collective injury when they accidentally use a group name in a derogatory manner. Kasmeer is much worse.

 

Imagine you've known of only good Asuras your entire life and then one hurts you so deeply you say "some Asuras deserve to die" don't clarify the statement and then have your PR do damage control by saying "Oh they didn't mean other Asuras deserved to die, they was thinking of only one. They were making a wry comparison. It's wry because there are no other bad Asuras."

 

At this point, the Asuras will bring up whatever in-game equivalent of Mel Gibson exists and explain that anger/sadness don't excuse bigotry. Because if one really loved a group they'd be thinking of them before they used one of their identifiers in an ambiguous death threat.

 

> And gods are not a zero-sum division of six.

Yes, but the Gods and their Six seem to be.

 

> No, that's not how things work. You either are or you are not. We're not talking genealogy where you can be 5% Native American and 50% Caucasian and 45% Latino. Lyss and Ilya are not even "half a member of the Six" - you are either a member of the Six or you are not.

 

* "god" is not a title, it is a class of beings of unknown variety that are not biologically related to mortals.

* "God" is the general/masculine title for a god in the Six.

* "godhood" is the biological threshold at which point a corruptive process has made an entity divine

* "Godhood" is the general/masculine title for the magical threshold above godhood at which point a god has enough power to be considered a member of the Six.

* "demigod" is the biological threshold at which point a corruptive process has made an entity half god and half mortal.

* "Demigod" is the general/masculine title for the magical threshold above godhood at which point a god has half the power needed to be considered a member of the Six.

 

It's not that hard for the writers to implement. This is a franchise for teens but not everything has to be informal.

 

As for Gaheron, it has nothing to do with mists. The question is why Gaheron was resurrectable. We assume divine and dragon corruption destroy the spirit. But we have very limited information on what bloodstone corruption does.

 

Perhaps Gaheron became like Xera.

[Ithilwen.1529]

As to the speculation in the OP, I don't think it's actually Joko. We left joko "between the worlds" confined in a cage..

I think someone stole his identity, just as we did. *My #1 suspect? Grenth.*

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> As to the speculation in the OP, I don't think it's actually Joko. We left joko "between the worlds" confined in a cage..

> I think someone stole his identity, just as we did. *My #1 suspect? Grenth.*

We left him there, yes, but he was bound by Balthazar. With the former god dead, it's not unreasonable to think Joko might have escaped and returned to Elona. However, I have this sneaking suspicion with might have another Lazarus on our hands, by which I mean we won't know Joko is truly back or not until much later in the season.