On difficulty modes (Game Maker's Toolkit)

[zealex.9410]

The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

 

Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

 

 

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > Because I think everything should be obtainable though the means *they* personally like. I totally agree that there should be open world methods of obtaining The Ascension, and PvP methods for obtaining Legendary weapons, and so on. Every mode should have a path to every reward, so that players who want a certain skin should never be forced to play a mode that they do not enjoy. In before strawmen.

> >

> > There is a significant number of players who only do world bosses one after the other. And I don't mean Teq or Triple Trouble. I mean they taxi from one low threat "Press 1" encounter to the next like Shadow Behemoth, the Karka Queen, Jungle Wurm ect. They have tons of fun doing it, but mainly it's a reason to be social, fire off dance emotes and drop Fun Boxes. Nothing at all wrong with it, but they are literally just hopping from one boss they autoattack to the next, stopping only to RP in a quaagan tonic.

> >

> > Do you think this playstyle should also have a path to legendary armor? Do you think standing among 50 other people autoattacking with zero actual challenge should have the same rewards as time spent wiping on raid bosses?

> >

> Why would you think that playstyle is any worse than those of raiders? Both groups do what they like to do and have fun out of it. One way of having fun is not in any way superior to the other. And that's all this game should be about - having fun.

 

I'm going to tell you a little story.

My girlfriend and I play this game together a lot. She is not a pro gamer, GW2 is her first MMO. When we would first go to Verdant Brink, our game time was stressful. She found the challenge level beyond her abilities, was constantly getting two shotted and falling into pits and off cliffs. She, like many people, hated it. But at one point she decided she wanted to do the Yggdrasil collection for her druid main. She liked the skin and wanted the staff.

Of course one of the pieces of the collection is a map complete on a HoT map.

So whenever she was feeling up to it we would do VB little bits at a time and then went back to chop wood or mine iron when she was feeling defeated.

Then one afternoon she realized she was about 80% complete and we sat down and grinded it out.

When we got the final point she was missing and she got her missing collection piece she just sat there for a few mins, completely and rightfully proud of her accomplishment. It was something she never thought she could do. If you ask her, she will tell you it felt effing great.

An hour later she completed the collection and had her staff, her first ascended weapon.

 

By the logic you present she should have been able to do this collection any way she chose, like derping around Snowden Drifts or camping the Shadow Behemoth and pressing 1 every minute or so.

Would her accomplishment meant as much? Would she have felt like she actually did anything, mastered anything or gotten at all better at this game?

Completing VB gave the reward value.

Much of that had to do with the stick and not the carrot. She is no longer even using the staff, but she will always remember how she felt earning that Druid's Cache in VB.

 

If you want Legendary Armor, do something Legendary. Get together nine of your friends, watch videos, tune your build, and gear up as best you can. Wipe until you all cry then eventually defeat the strongest and most complex threats that Tyria has to offer.

The path is there, anyone can do it. And when you do get it done it will feel effing great.

...much better than if all you had to do was defeat a world boss that is on farm like Fire Elemental.

 

Gating rewards behind certain content and activities gives them value. A big part of what is currently wrong with GW2's rewards is that the value has been progressively gutted by this "I want it non my terms" mentality of the playerbase.

It's lead us to a state where anything interesting is earned by farming Silverwastes for the gold.

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

>

> Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

>

Envoys are the guides for the dead that are tied specifically to _Canthan_ lore. In Tyria (and most probably Elona as well, seeing the PoF story) their role is replaced by Grenth's servants (like the Reapers and the Judge).

 

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> If you want Legendary Armor, do something Legendary. Get together nine of your friends, watch videos, tune your build, and gear up as best you can. Wipe until you all cry then eventually defeat the strongest and most complex threats that Tyria has to offer.

> The path is there, anyone can do it. And when you do get it done it will feel effing great.

> ...much better than if all you had to do was defeat a world boss that is on farm like Fire Elemental.

I _have_ obtained the set i wanted. I don't feel great for "defeating" the content at all. I don't feel a better player because of it. I don't feel proud of it. I just feel _tired_. Getting the armor just leeched the joy out of me.

You're right - the journey is important. If it's bad, it sours the whole experience.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

 

Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha. With the raid leading upto the point where you interfere with the whole white mantle and their insistence on sacrificing and locking souls into the bloodstone. I think it is very apt that envoy armor is tied to the first 4(5th too) raid wings where you do exactly that.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > If you want an example of rewards tied to the content, look at dungeon skins. Many of the raid skins actually also belong to that category (it's clear that you get dhuum scythe by killing dhuum, for example). Raid armor however is not like that. It is tied to raids by a purely arbitrary decision.

>

> Oh? And what does The Ascension have to do with PvP? What are the thematic ties making Aurora bound to LS3 and Luminescent armor to Silverwastes? Why do you need Shards of Zhaitan to craft Bifrost? There are plenty of arbitrary locks. However, you're only fixated on one of these, and you've been fixated on it for months.

Oh. i agree that a lot of locks could use some improvement. And i _have_ been commenting on at least some of those in the past as well.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> By the way, I wouldn't mind if the armor was somehow White Mantle related for instance. Thematic reasons aren't lost on me. But the fact is, doing the journey is what mattered. Taking my first steps, making gradual progress, improving over time, changing from failure, through struggle, to mastery. In the end, I didn't and don't really care what the armor design was. I even have it transmuted right now. But I care what it means.

I don't. And that's perhaps for the better, because for me the journey was not a positive experience.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I care for its story, because it's my own. That's far and away more important than being "arbitrary" locked.

But is your story really about the armor, or rather about the journey itself? Do you care more about the fact that you've got the legendary, or about the fact that you've "conquered" the raids? From what you've said above, i'd guess it's the latter, not the former. In which case the armor might as well not be placed there.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>Sure, it might be arbitrary. But without this locking, the story wouldn't exist.

Only if you wouldn't be raiding if not for the armour.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

>

> Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha.

You are right. Except it's not "at least", but "only" in Cantha. In other regions the role seems to be directly taken over by Grenth ans his servants.

And guess what, raids have absolutely no ties to Cantha whatsoever.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > If you want Legendary Armor, do something Legendary. Get together nine of your friends, watch videos, tune your build, and gear up as best you can. Wipe until you all cry then eventually defeat the strongest and most complex threats that Tyria has to offer.

> > The path is there, anyone can do it. And when you do get it done it will feel effing great.

> > ...much better than if all you had to do was defeat a world boss that is on farm like Fire Elemental.

> I _have_ obtained the set i wanted. I don't feel great for "defeating" the content at all. I don't feel a better player because of it. I don't feel proud of it. I just feel _tired_. Getting the armor just leeched the joy out of me.

> You're right - the journey is important. If it's bad, it sours the whole experience.

 

Solution: don't play content you don't enjoy.

 

Would I like the wvw or pvp legendary backpack? Yes, but I don't enjoy that content, so I don't grind it out and kill myself with boredom. I instead go have fun doing the content in this game I do enjoy, and if that runs out I go play another game. You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy. These are games, not work, your not fighting for your personal well being or standard of living, the point was to have fun.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

 

 

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> >

> > Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

> >

> Envoys are the guides for the dead that are tied specifically to _Canthan_ lore. In Tyria (and most probably Elona as well, seeing the PoF story) their role is replaced by Grenth's servants (like the Reapers and the Judge).

>

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > If you want Legendary Armor, do something Legendary. Get together nine of your friends, watch videos, tune your build, and gear up as best you can. Wipe until you all cry then eventually defeat the strongest and most complex threats that Tyria has to offer.

> > The path is there, anyone can do it. And when you do get it done it will feel effing great.

> > ...much better than if all you had to do was defeat a world boss that is on farm like Fire Elemental.

> I _have_ obtained the set i wanted. I don't feel great for "defeating" the content at all. I don't feel a better player because of it. I don't feel proud of it. I just feel _tired_. Getting the armor just leeched the joy out of me.

> You're right - the journey is important. If it's bad, it sours the whole experience.

 

And you would have felt better if all you had to do was kill Karka Queen and Fire Elemental?

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

>

> Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

>

>

 

Envoys i believe guided the souls back in gw1. I believe like a punishment for terrible ppl.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> >

> > Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha.

> You are right. Except it's not "at least", but "only" in Cantha. In other regions the role seems to be directly taken over by Grenth ans his servants.

> And guess what, raids have absolutely no ties to Cantha whatsoever.

 

I would assume envoys work directly under grenth and are put there because of him. In cantha they might call them envoys and in tyria reapers. Having diff names for the same thing in diff cultures is not a rare concept.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

> Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

>

>

 

Then you don't pick any. It's a game, it doesn't make sense to play it if it makes you unhappy.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> >

> > Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha.

> You are right. Except it's not "at least", but "only" in Cantha. In other regions the role seems to be directly taken over by Grenth ans his servants.

> And guess what, raids have absolutely no ties to Cantha whatsoever.

 

An Envoy could just be the general term for it for all we know. Similarly, ascended armour doesnt have any actual ties to Ascension.

 

There's no conclusion evidence for or against either. It might very well simply be called envoy armour because we as characters make it from experimenting with spirit related and magic related materials that can only be found within the very unique environment around the bloodstone filled with stones.

 

It is after all, a name given to an item.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> >

> > Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha.

> You are right. Except it's not "at least", but "only" in Cantha. In other regions the role seems to be directly taken over by Grenth ans his servants.

> And guess what, raids have absolutely no ties to Cantha whatsoever.

 

An Envoy could just be the general term for it for all we know. Similarly, ascended armour doesnt have any actual ties to Ascension.

 

There's no conclusion evidence for or against either. It might very well simply be called envoy armour because we as characters make it from experimenting with spirit related and magic related materials that can only be found within the very unique environment around the bloodstone filled with stones.

 

It is after all, a name given to an item.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

> Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

>

>

 

I was under the impression that ppl are capable of saying "you know what? This isnt worth the effort fuck it". Like even in rl getting something through means u dont really like the sound of is very often the thing but ppl seem capable of doing just fine by saying no thank you and moving on to the next shiny.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

> Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

>

>

Honestly, it sounds to me like your suffering from depression. I'm not joking at all. It sounds like you feel completely helpless. Your not, your strong and capable and in charge of your life. If Anet's game is so bad that it makes you feel bad no matter what, you need to stop playing. The whole point is to have fun. If your not happy, if your not having fun, take charge of your life and find new choices. Stop thinking of it as being, 'given' choices. You make the choices.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> > >

> > > Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha.

> > You are right. Except it's not "at least", but "only" in Cantha. In other regions the role seems to be directly taken over by Grenth ans his servants.

> > And guess what, raids have absolutely no ties to Cantha whatsoever.

>

> I would assume envoys work directly under grenth and are put there because of him. In cantha they might call them envoys and in tyria reapers. Having diff names for the same thing in diff cultures is not a rare concept.

Actually, no. Envoys are a very specific group of spirits with a very specific history. By GW1 wiki: "All envoys were once wicked criminals in life, forced by the Oracle of the Mists to serve as soul shepherds as penance for their mortal crimes".

They are not connected to the standard Five/Six Gods religion, but a part of the Canthan spirit worship (which is something very specific to Canthan culture and doesn't exist in Tyria or Elona). Their "area of operations" seem to be limited to Cantha only as well.

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> > > >

> > > > Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I believe the envoys in GW1 are those who shepherd the souls of the death to the afterlife. At least in Cantha.

> > > You are right. Except it's not "at least", but "only" in Cantha. In other regions the role seems to be directly taken over by Grenth ans his servants.

> > > And guess what, raids have absolutely no ties to Cantha whatsoever.

> >

> > I would assume envoys work directly under grenth and are put there because of him. In cantha they might call them envoys and in tyria reapers. Having diff names for the same thing in diff cultures is not a rare concept.

> Actually, no. Envoys are a very specific group of spirits with a very specific history. By GW1 wiki: "All envoys were once wicked criminals in life, forced by the Oracle of the Mists to serve as soul shepherds as penance for their mortal crimes".

> They are not connected to the standard Five/Six Gods religion, but a part of the Canthan spirit worship (which is something very specific to Canthan culture and doesn't exist in Tyria or Elona). Their "area of operations" seem to be limited to Cantha only as well.

>

 

I see so instead of having it tied to raids we should have had it instead be a Cantha thing. But oh well since they decided to use the name(since we sort of do that throughout the riads) i think is apropriate.

 

Doubling down on it at this point will only further devalue the title.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

> > Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

> >

> >

>

> Then you don't pick any. It's a game, it doesn't make sense to play it if it makes you unhappy.

So, if i don't like a specific part of the game and think it is something that impacts my enjoyment of it, instead of arguing for that part to be improved (as i see it), i should shut up and leave the game completely, because some people do not like my ideas.

.

Yep, that would definitely be a good idea.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> >

> > Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

> >

> >

>

> Envoys i believe guided the souls back in gw1. I believe like a punishment for terrible ppl.

 

This Envoy armor thing kinda bugs me because it’s really has nothing to do with Envoys other then maybe the spirit vale and Gorseval collections. The armor itself doesn’t resemble the envoys either. Really the armor could have been called anything but Envoy, because it has nothing to do with shepherding the newly dead. Unless I’m not seeing a blatant connection.

 

They could have called it magnetite armor or something of that nature.

 

Also for Zealex benefit.

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Envoy

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reaper

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

> > > Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Then you don't pick any. It's a game, it doesn't make sense to play it if it makes you unhappy.

> So, if i don't like a specific part of the game and think it is something that impacts my enjoyment of it, instead of arguing for that part to be improved (as i see it), i should shut up and leave the game completely, because some people do not like my ideas.

> .

> Yep, that would definitely be a good idea.

>

 

If it's only about part of the game, then don't play that specific part. What's the problem? I don't like chestfarming and I don't do it. I don't like pvp and I don't do it. Really, I fail to see the problem. Why would you expect everything in such a diverse game to be tailored exactly to your own tastes?

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> > >

> > > Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Envoys i believe guided the souls back in gw1. I believe like a punishment for terrible ppl.

>

> This Envoy armor thing kinda bugs me because it’s really has nothing to do with Envoys other then maybe the spirit vale and Gorseval collections. The armor itself doesn’t resemble the envoys either. Really the armor could have been called anything but Envoy, because it has nothing to do with shepherding the newly dead. Unless I’m not seeing a blatant connection.

>

> They could have called it magnetite armor or something of that nature.

>

> Also for Zealex benefit.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Envoy

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reaper

 

To be fair, we don't know a great deal about envoys. Other than that, at least in gw1, they are spirits of previous criminals, with enormous power, guiding the other spirits, and somehow put into submission by the oracle (at least one or some of them)

 

I still believe that the name of the armour is mostly made up by our player character as it seems to me its an experiment in making the best armor with materials from the raids.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > The whole energy/souls plot is pretty closely tied to the raids doe.

> > > >

> > > > Good point actually. I'm not GW1 vet, so the whole Envoy thing isn't quite clear for me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Envoys i believe guided the souls back in gw1. I believe like a punishment for terrible ppl.

> >

> > This Envoy armor thing kinda bugs me because it’s really has nothing to do with Envoys other then maybe the spirit vale and Gorseval collections. The armor itself doesn’t resemble the envoys either. Really the armor could have been called anything but Envoy, because it has nothing to do with shepherding the newly dead. Unless I’m not seeing a blatant connection.

> >

> > They could have called it magnetite armor or something of that nature.

> >

> > Also for Zealex benefit.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Envoy

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reaper

>

> To be fair, we don't know a great deal about envoys. Other than that, at least in gw1, they are spirits of previous criminals, with enormous power, guiding the other spirits, and somehow put into submission by the oracle (at least one or some of them)

>

> I still believe that the name of the armour is mostly made up by our player character as it seems to me its an experiment in making the best armor with materials from the raids.

 

Should of held off until Cantha to name an armour set, Envoy, but who knows.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > You and you alone are capable of making the decisions that will make you happy.

> > > > Indeed. What however about the situation where i'm given _only_ the choices that are guaranteed to not make me happy?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Then you don't pick any. It's a game, it doesn't make sense to play it if it makes you unhappy.

> > So, if i don't like a specific part of the game and think it is something that impacts my enjoyment of it, instead of arguing for that part to be improved (as i see it), i should shut up and leave the game completely, because some people do not like my ideas.

> > .

> > Yep, that would definitely be a good idea.

> >

>

> If it's only about part of the game, then don't play that specific part.

There's just way too much things locked behind that content for me to be able to simply ignore its existence. So, not playing _is_ one of those "lose/lose" choices.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> What's the problem? I don't like chestfarming and I don't do it.

Neither do i. And not doing it doesn't impact me in any way. Nothing is locked behind it.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I don't like pvp and I don't do it.

Not very fond of it, and getting the ascension wasn't one of the fun moments for me either. The difference? I could do it solo, and it didn't require going too deep into that mode. I could manage by just casually dipping into it. With the same amount of investment in raids i'd still be dying to VG.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Really, I fail to see the problem.

Of course you don't. It's not _your_ problem.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Why would you expect everything in such a diverse game to be tailored exactly to your own tastes?

I don't. I just think that the game that is _really_ trying to accomodate diverse playstyles and players, should realize that not everyone will be interested in a specific content and offer alternate choices for those players. So, alternate reward paths for those that are interested in rewards, story modes for those that are interested in lore, and lower difficulty modes for those that _are_ interested in challenging themselves, but simply aren't as skilled as you are.