End of Jumping Puzzles

[Tom Gore.4035]

According to wiki there is but one JP in Crystal Desert. Really?? Next expansion, zero?

 

These were one of my favorite pastimes in the original game, and still are whenever they're part of the daily.

 

Why neglect them? Too hard to design?

[Danikat.8537]

It might depend on how you define jumping puzzle. I seem to remember HoT officially has none. It has mastery points that require a lot of jumping to get to, and at least 1 adventure that's all jumping between platforms, but they're not classified as jumping puzzles.

 

Even the one the wiki lists for PoF is called a mini-dungeon on it's own Wiki page.

[Tom Gore.4035]

By JP I mean anything that's specifically designed as one and has some kind of achievement attached to it (and possibly some kind of reward - usually a chest - at the end).

[Hannelore.8153]

They generally introduce jumping puzzles in Living World, not expansions. HoT had none, but LS3 had some big ones.

[Underdark.3726]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> As far as I know, the only "jumping puzzle" in PoF is that djinn palace with the sand portals at Crystal Oasis, which barely has any difficulty anyway.

>

> And yeah, I'm sad as well. Definitely one of my favorite parts of the game, and we haven't gotten any since the previous Living World season :cry:.

>

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > They generally introduce jumping puzzles in Living World, not expansions. HoT had none, but LS3 had some big ones.

>

> [Don't lie, HoT had at least five of them.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jumping_puzzle#Heart_of_Maguuma)

 

there is one jp in the The Way forward story mission and the Augury Rock is techincaly a Jumping puzzle

[Yereton.8647]

There is also a 'JP' in the Bone Palace, it is associated with an achievement (Bone Palace Pinnacle) and a Shadows Provisions Chest. It is a tad lackluster to some of the JPs in vanilla and the LSW.

 

[Offair.2563]

There are at least 3 in auric basin which are classified as jump puzzle and even have an achievement for it. ( not showing in the jp achievement section though)

[Ohoni.6057]

Part of the difficulty with JPs in PoF is the mounts. They didn't want to artificially clamp down on mount freedom since it was their showcase for them, but that made it a bit tricky to design truly challenging JPs. Yereton mentioned the Bone Palace "JP," but you can trivialize that one with a Griffon. There are plenty of tricky to reach locations, but at the end of the day complex puzzles are made a bit trickier. Any good puzzle needs to be specifically designed to not be something you can just fly into, unless you just want to be a jerk about it and put up a no-fly field.

 

I would be interested in seeing a truly mount-crazy JP though, hopefully not one too punishing, but one designed so that the only way to successfully move through it is to recognize which mount you need to use for specific purposes, like jumps that only a Raptor can make (a Griffon would bounce off a ceiling), then you need to skim across some water and up through a tunnel onto a rise where you need a Springer, just constantly flipping mounts around, hopefully in some new and creative ways. It would be especially interesting if they could figure out how to use their attacks too, like have terrain obstacles that you can "kill" by using a Springer cannonball, otherwise it will damage you or something, or have critters that you need to "rez" with a Skimmer to perform some function.

[Hannelore.8153]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> As far as I know, the only "jumping puzzle" in PoF is that djinn palace with the sand portals at Crystal Oasis, which barely has any difficulty anyway.

>

> And yeah, I'm sad as well. Definitely one of my favorite parts of the game, and we haven't gotten any since the previous Living World season :cry:.

>

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > They generally introduce jumping puzzles in Living World, not expansions. HoT had none, but LS3 had some big ones.

>

> [Don't lie, HoT had at least five of them.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jumping_puzzle#Heart_of_Maguuma)

 

If you would read the thread the ones for masteries and adventures were already spoken about. I was not aware of the (few) others, and its kind of unfair to call someone a liar when it is simply a lack of information and not trying to be misleading in their response.

[lokh.2695]

I don't like JPs at all. If I wanted to platform, I'd play the according games. Once a year SAB is all the platformin I need. So I applaud them for not having this content as prominent at the moment. I'm sure there will be new JP's in new maps though...yay...

[Tom Gore.4035]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Part of the difficulty with JPs in PoF is the mounts. They didn't want to artificially clamp down on mount freedom since it was their showcase for them, but that made it a bit tricky to design truly challenging JPs. Yereton mentioned the Bone Palace "JP," but you can trivialize that one with a Griffon. There are plenty of tricky to reach locations, but at the end of the day complex puzzles are made a bit trickier. Any good puzzle needs to be specifically designed to not be something you can just fly into, unless you just want to be a jerk about it and put up a no-fly field.

>

> I would be interested in seeing a truly mount-crazy JP though, hopefully not one too punishing, but one designed so that the only way to successfully move through it is to recognize which mount you need to use for specific purposes, like jumps that only a Raptor can make (a Griffon would bounce off a ceiling), then you need to skim across some water and up through a tunnel onto a rise where you need a Springer, just constantly flipping mounts around, hopefully in some new and creative ways. It would be especially interesting if they could figure out how to use their attacks too, like have terrain obstacles that you can "kill" by using a Springer cannonball, otherwise it will damage you or something, or have critters that you need to "rez" with a Skimmer to perform some function.

 

On the other hand, the volcano JP in Ring of Fire demonstrated fairly well how problematic designing JPs even with just gliders is. People were literally tearing their hair off on that JP, sometimes just because in many cases you had no clear indication where to (try to) go next.

 

I would be super happy with more "classic" JPs that are no-mount, no-fly zones (maybe even no-portal). Just your trusty legs and a spacebar. The best part here is, everyone is on the same level here and grinding/buying your way into a better mount does not give you an advantage.

 

[Ardid.7203]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I would be interested in seeing a truly mount-crazy JP though, hopefully not one too punishing, but one designed so that the only way to successfully move through it is to recognize which mount you need to use for specific purposes, like jumps that only a Raptor can make (a Griffon would bounce off a ceiling), then you need to skim across some water and up through a tunnel onto a rise where you need a Springer, just constantly flipping mounts around, hopefully in some new and creative ways. It would be especially interesting if they could figure out how to use their attacks too, like have terrain obstacles that you can "kill" by using a Springer cannonball, otherwise it will damage you or something, or have critters that you need to "rez" with a Skimmer to perform some function.

 

I would love this!

[Plautze.6290]

> @"Tom Gore.4035" said:

> On the other hand, the volcano JP in Ring of Fire demonstrated fairly well how problematic designing JPs even with just gliders is. People were literally tearing their hair off on that JP, sometimes just because in many cases you had no clear indication where to (try to) go next.

>

> I would be super happy with more "classic" JPs that are no-mount, no-fly zones (maybe even no-portal). Just your trusty legs and a spacebar. The best part here is, everyone is on the same level here and grinding/buying your way into a better mount does not give you an advantage.

>

Exactly.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Part of the difficulty with JPs in PoF is the mounts. They didn't want to artificially clamp down on mount freedom since it was their showcase for them, but that made it a bit tricky to design truly challenging JPs. Yereton mentioned the Bone Palace "JP," but you can trivialize that one with a Griffon. There are plenty of tricky to reach locations, but at the end of the day complex puzzles are made a bit trickier. Any good puzzle needs to be specifically designed to not be something you can just fly into, unless you just want to be a jerk about it and put up a no-fly field.

>

> I would be interested in seeing a truly mount-crazy JP though, hopefully not one too punishing, but one designed so that the only way to successfully move through it is to recognize which mount you need to use for specific purposes, like jumps that only a Raptor can make (a Griffon would bounce off a ceiling), then you need to skim across some water and up through a tunnel onto a rise where you need a Springer, just constantly flipping mounts around, hopefully in some new and creative ways. It would be especially interesting if they could figure out how to use their attacks too, like have terrain obstacles that you can "kill" by using a Springer cannonball, otherwise it will damage you or something, or have critters that you need to "rez" with a Skimmer to perform some function.

 

Give that man a prize! That would definitely be a good addition to a mount-related game! ANet, listen to him!

 

[Kamara.4187]

JP's are my least favorite thing in the game. In fact I'm pretty much just a wvw junkie, however I support the JP creations because its a very special GW2 attraction that does please many players and in my book more players = a healthy mmo :)

[Razor.6392]

> @"lokh.2695" said:

> I don't like JPs at all. If I wanted to platform, I'd play the according games. Once a year SAB is all the platformin I need. So I applaud them for not having this content as prominent at the moment. I'm sure there will be new JP's in new maps though...yay...

 

You don't have to do them, you know? Look below:

 

> @"Kamara.4187" said:

> JP's are my least favorite thing in the game. In fact I'm pretty much just a wvw junkie, however I support the JP creations because its a very special GW2 attraction that does please many players and in my book more players = a healthy mmo :)

 

He/she doesn't like them either, but knows that some people do, so he/she's in favor of keeping them. You could learn a thing of two from this poster.

[Lunarlife.5128]

Verdant Brink also has a JP.

 

Outside of Rising Flames or w/e that Volcano Jp which could glitch in so many spots and with jumps that would save you time rerolling to a mesmer... The JPs were awesome but probably take a bunch of resources.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

What Ohoni said and said well.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> As far as I know, the only "jumping puzzle" in PoF is that djinn palace with the sand portals at Crystal Oasis, which barely has any difficulty anyway.

>

> And yeah, I'm sad as well. Definitely one of my favorite parts of the game, and we haven't gotten any since the previous Living World season :cry:.

>

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > They generally introduce jumping puzzles in Living World, not expansions. HoT had none, but LS3 had some big ones.

>

> [Don't lie, HoT had at least five of them.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jumping_puzzle#Heart_of_Maguuma)

 

No, there's the one you have to do with the jackal at Crystal oasis. The Djinn one is a mini-dungeon.

I'm hoping they'll get added in LW4 maps.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Tom Gore.4035" said:

> On the other hand, the volcano JP in Ring of Fire demonstrated fairly well how problematic designing JPs even with just gliders is. People were literally tearing their hair off on that JP, sometimes just because in many cases you had no clear indication where to (try to) go next.

 

Agreed. This is just my personal stance, so I'm sure some will disagree, but I hate JPs that "punish" exploration. Like some JPs, Chalice of Tears especially, are designed in such a way that it takes several tense minutes to reach a point, then you pretty much have to make some blind leaps of faith, but if they don't work out, it *resets* that progress you make and you need to repeat the whole bit you already did, which is a lot less fun now because you know how it works, but can still be frustrating due to the complexity.

 

I much prefer in JP design for them to implement generous and well-telegraphed checkpoints, OR to design the layout in such a way that if you flub a jump, it's fairly quick to get back to where you were, rather than setting you back long and complicated amounts of time. The skill should be in executing short series of jumps, or in figuring out _which_ way to go, it should not be about the _endurance_ of repeating the elements you already have because you keep messing up some new element at the end of a long chain.

 

I think Spekk's Lab is one of my favorites for this, any jump sequence you fail, you can catch a portal back to where it started that sequence, setting you back only about ten seconds of hopping. Chalice theoretically has these check points, but they are too far between, and too poorly communicated to the player, so you don't often know where a death would put you. The method to do it without checkpoints is to design the layout so that you essentially have a number of "rooms" (which don't have to be physical rooms, but they are areas where you can't skip from one to another out of intended order), and each presents short challenges that can be completed within about thirty seconds if you know what you're doing (figuring it out and executing would be the trick), but if you fail the challenge of that "room," the worst case scenario would lead you to fall to the bottom of that "room" and have to restart it, rather than falling all the way back to the previous "room," or the one before that. You can keep trying the specific challenge that you failed, rather than having to return to previous ones. Obviously there would ideally be auto-rezzing methods in place of some sort.

 

If you design the puzzle with that in mind, you can have very complex, exploratory maps that aren't overly frustrating. Given the nature of mounts, "rooms" is a good way to design these puzzles, since it limits "path breaking" options.

 

>I would be super happy with more "classic" JPs that are no-mount, no-fly zones (maybe even no-portal). Just your trusty legs and a spacebar. The best part here is, everyone is on the same level here and grinding/buying your way into a better mount does not give you an advantage.

 

And this is an option too, especially with Living World, but for the initial launch of PoF it would be mixed messaging to have "no mounts" zones in the new maps.

 

 

[Tails.9372]

Look at it from the bright side, maybe we'll get some nice JPs the next time the SAB opens.

[Blude.6812]

> @"Tom Gore.4035" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Part of the difficulty with JPs in PoF is the mounts. They didn't want to artificially clamp down on mount freedom since it was their showcase for them, but that made it a bit tricky to design truly challenging JPs. Yereton mentioned the Bone Palace "JP," but you can trivialize that one with a Griffon. There are plenty of tricky to reach locations, but at the end of the day complex puzzles are made a bit trickier. Any good puzzle needs to be specifically designed to not be something you can just fly into, unless you just want to be a jerk about it and put up a no-fly field.

> >

> > I would be interested in seeing a truly mount-crazy JP though, hopefully not one too punishing, but one designed so that the only way to successfully move through it is to recognize which mount you need to use for specific purposes, like jumps that only a Raptor can make (a Griffon would bounce off a ceiling), then you need to skim across some water and up through a tunnel onto a rise where you need a Springer, just constantly flipping mounts around, hopefully in some new and creative ways. It would be especially interesting if they could figure out how to use their attacks too, like have terrain obstacles that you can "kill" by using a Springer cannonball, otherwise it will damage you or something, or have critters that you need to "rez" with a Skimmer to perform some function.

>

> On the other hand, the volcano JP in Ring of Fire demonstrated fairly well how problematic designing JPs even with just gliders is. People were literally tearing their hair off on that JP, sometimes just because in many cases you had no clear indication where to (try to) go next.

>

> I would be super happy with more "classic" JPs that are no-mount, no-fly zones (maybe even no-portal). Just your trusty legs and a spacebar. The best part here is, everyone is on the same level here and grinding/buying your way into a better mount does not give you an advantage.

>

 

Can Agree with everything but the no ports. That is a key skill for a mes and restricting it to certain activities would set a precedent for ALL professions. Maybe thief should not have stealth sometimes, or no speed boosts to increase jumps, or maybe no leap to target to help a jump etc. And getting a griffon is no big deal btw.

 

[Grim West.3194]

I want another jumping puzzle as hard as the original Wintersday and Clocktower Puzzles. Those are epic.

 

Abbaddon's Ascent is pretty cool. But the dynamic puzzles like Wintersday / Clocktower are the best. I would pay for a whole expansion of just jumping puzzles.

[Aenaos.8160]

> @"Tom Gore.4035" said:

> According to wiki there is but one JP in Crystal Desert. Really?? Next expansion, zero?

>

> These were one of my favorite pastimes in the original game, and still are whenever they're part of the daily.

>

> Why neglect them? Too hard to design?

 

Which one is it?

I haven't found any in CD.

[DoctorOverlord.8620]

I am not missing them. I have never liked jumping puzzles and I always thought platforming mechanics belonged in games designed to be platformers rather than MMOs.

 

There are MMO-specific issues like wonky cameras. Most of the time the camera in GW2 is fine, but it always seems to choose to freak out when you're doing a JP. Then there are other online issues like the occasional norn/charr who engulfs your character at a particularly critical moment. Or worse, the trolls who know how to time speed boons perfectly to make you miss a jump.

 

I know there are people who like JPs, and I appreciate how most of the time JPs are not gates stopping progression, but I just cannot say I am sorry if they are being phased out. I much prefer the new design philosophy of making in-game movement something enjoyable, not something that is self-flagellation.

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

JP is my favourite activity in the game. I want to have more. For me it does not matter what sort will be the new ones, as long as we keep ALL existing types. I believe it is important that there is a big variety of JPs (different types, levels of difficulty, possibility to glide or not, possibility to use mounts or not, and so on....), simply because I find it good that each player finds those suiting him/her the most. This thread shows it well: Each player has different "taste" regarding JP type, each shall be able to find his/her own fun at jumping.

 

Personally, since I do love jumping, and I do love that it is a challenge, the one in Ember Bay (Vulcano) is out of my preferred ones. I consider this one the most difficult of all, because it includes all type of difficulties, including blind jumps (we don't see where to we are aiming). One exception: no timed platforms on the path, but well, there are enough other roadblocks! :)

The only thing I dislike about this JP is its duration. I have a busy real life and cannot easily afford to stuck 2 hours for "just" a JP (3 if I take friends into it who want to do it without straight ports to check points). Therefore, I would like that this JP saves our progress for a certain time, like for example, 48 hours. After that it can reset. There is already a JP like that, the one in Silverwaste (24 hours). So it means it is technically possible.

 

On a side note: Out of those I hate the most is the one in Draconis Mons. Nothing to do with its level of difficulty though. Simply because I have zero fun at using the spiderman skill, and in this JP, we are forced to it to be able to go through, in a pretty difficult way. For those who don't manage easily that skill, no chance to go through. I find that pretty unfair. But that's my personal view. Generally, for me, every JPs allowing mounts and special skills should also secure a path possible for those who don't like using mounts and special skills, so that the JP remains possible for everybody.

 

But I was a bit off the main point now.

Regarding designing: I do not know enough about designing to make a statement. However, what I see on a daily basis is that the existing configuration of the landscape allows to climb/jump on - and glide to - everything, everywhere. Best proof of that is that Anet has to add regularly more and more invisible walls, even more since we have mounts. It seems to show that the base landscape configuration allows for JPs everywhere. That's why I believe that to design a JP is a matter of tuning a path already existing "only" (as in no need to start from zero and build up something fully new).