'Bug in the System' Speculations

[CETheLucid.3964]

Hope we end up in the Ash Legion homelands south of Ebonhawke. :+1:

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> Hope we end up in the Ash Legion homelands south of Ebonhawke. :+1:

 

South of Ebonhawke is the Crystal Desert (or technically where the Shiverpeaks and Blazeridge meet, neither mountain range considered charr territories). And as much as I'd like to see that gap between the Desert Gate and Lifeblood Stream filled with a zone, it wouldn't be Ash Legion homelands. Far too little room for a charr legion.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > Clearly it means Zhaitan was a Joko minion all along, and we're finally getting the proper fight.

> > >

> > > Either that or the tree got screwed again, or corrupted...

> > >

> > > It could also be GW2's version of Hal9000, or another crazy Sylvari, never get tired of killing those or anything.

> >

> > Why not combine the theories in a way: Zhaitan could be an Awakened created by the Sphere of Death and Shadow Palawa Joko and the Nightmare that Faolain embraced on Orr could be yet another manifestation of Joko's presence.

>

> Idk about all that. But it would be pretty interesting if Joko were some remnant of one of Zhaitan's previous awakenings cycles. Though he appears to have potentially been human at some point even though it's hard to tell now.

>

> Still really hoping we find out the origin of Joko this season though. Even if some people argue that it isn't necessary.

 

 

There's also the possibility that the Zhaitan we killed was actually his champion and that Joko is another Champion directly controlled by Zhaitan from under the Asura city and corrupted by him just as Scarlet was corrupted by Mordremoth(at least we _**think**_ it is Mordremoth even though the vision had Zhaitan's Orb come at the central one). The music Fear Not This Night is tied to Zhaitan and Sylvari so the episode has ties to one of them regardless of what happens

 

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > Clearly it means Zhaitan was a Joko minion all along, and we're finally getting the proper fight.

> > > >

> > > > Either that or the tree got screwed again, or corrupted...

> > > >

> > > > It could also be GW2's version of Hal9000, or another crazy Sylvari, never get tired of killing those or anything.

> > >

> > > Why not combine the theories in a way: Zhaitan could be an Awakened created by the Sphere of Death and Shadow Palawa Joko and the Nightmare that Faolain embraced on Orr could be yet another manifestation of Joko's presence.

> >

> > Idk about all that. But it would be pretty interesting if Joko were some remnant of one of Zhaitan's previous awakenings cycles. Though he appears to have potentially been human at some point even though it's hard to tell now.

> >

> > Still really hoping we find out the origin of Joko this season though. Even if some people argue that it isn't necessary.

>

>

> There's also the possibility that the Zhaitan we killed was actually his champion and that Joko is another Champion directly controlled by Zhaitan from under the Asura city and corrupted by him just as Scarlet was corrupted by Mordremoth(at least we _**think**_ it is Mordremoth even though the vision had Zhaitan's Orb come at the central one). The music Fear Not This Night is tied to Zhaitan and Sylvari so the episode has ties to one of them regardless of what happens

>

 

There is no possibility of this fir several reasons.

 

- the unchained show a complete disconnect from the elder dragon since his death

- Zhaitans sphere of death was absorbed by otger elder dragons

- The orrian ghosts knew zhaitan was dead in sirens landing

- The exalted knew zhaitan was dead as per the hidden city instance in pof

- The orbs cutscene indicated he was killed.

- Tequatl absorbed some of his magic and that was why he grew in power

 

 

Zhaitan was killed. If he wasnt and we killed something else, any story credibility would be gone without repair. Mordremoth was also killed, some of the reasons above apply.

 

Whatever ties fear not this night has to zhaitan and the sylvari, it is also widely regarded as the theme for the game. Since the trailer also uses remixes from gw1s theme, it is natural they chose to use fear not this night for dramatic effect and recognition more than anything else

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > Clearly it means Zhaitan was a Joko minion all along, and we're finally getting the proper fight.

> >

> > Either that or the tree got screwed again, or corrupted...

> >

> > It could also be GW2's version of Hal9000, or another crazy Sylvari, never get tired of killing those or anything.

>

> Why not combine the theories in a way: Zhaitan could be an Awakened created by the Sphere of Death and Shadow Palawa Joko and the Nightmare that Faolain embraced on Orr could be yet another manifestation of Joko's presence.

 

You forget something - the dragon that ate most of the fallen god's power. So hear this: Kralk finds Zaithan's corpse and resurrects him as Branded (like he did with the dead creature in the last cutscene of PoF). Then Branded Zhaitan brings Joko back from the dead where we left him imprisoned as a Risen Branded (or Branded Risen?). Then Joko travels to the Fire Islands and creates an army of Risen Branded Awakened Destroyers, at which point all the races on Tyria just give up.

[Donari.5237]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> We will learn that Joko is still out of the picture

 

Actually, the main thing we can say about Joko in the trailer is that he is in a picture ... ;)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Donari.5237" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > We will learn that Joko is still out of the picture

>

> Actually, the main thing we can say about Joko in the trailer is that he is in a picture ... ;)

 

They certainly did frame him well.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > Hope we end up in the Ash Legion homelands south of Ebonhawke. :+1:

>

> South of Ebonhawke is the Crystal Desert (or technically where the Shiverpeaks and Blazeridge meet, neither mountain range considered charr territories). And as much as I'd like to see that gap between the Desert Gate and Lifeblood Stream filled with a zone, it wouldn't be Ash Legion homelands. Far too little room for a charr legion.

 

It's probably not directly south. More southeast from Ebonhawke and north or around the general area of Dzalana. I'm just speculating based on some chatter from the game I couldn't place. Believe it happens in the Field of Ruin.

 

Some charr are discussing the concession of Ebonhawke to the humans and one Blood Legion fellow is upset about it saying the charr shouldn't give an inch, where another Ash Legion soldier points out it's not aconcern and since it lies closer to Ash Legion territory they could keep an eye on things regardless, agreeing with the truce.

 

But you're right, it's never outright stated or marked. Merely implied. Since we don't know for sure, that's something that could be established. And it'd take us back to Ascalon proper. I want to see a new Ascalon map and the Ash Legion Homelands would be a great bit of lore that could be explored.

 

Let me dream.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Donari.5237" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > We will learn that Joko is still out of the picture

> >

> > Actually, the main thing we can say about Joko in the trailer is that he is in a picture ... ;)

>

> They certainly did frame him well.

 

Not sure what this illustrates

[Taylan.2187]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> It should be noted the version of Fear Not This Night used in the trailer is different. It's not the vanilla version. It ends on a creepy lyric that isn't part of the real song.

 

Just checked. It says "who needs the light". Creepy.

I love Fear Not This Night, and whoever dared to desecrate this hymn will not be having any giggles after I'm done with them LOL.

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Donari.5237" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > We will learn that Joko is still out of the picture

> > >

> > > Actually, the main thing we can say about Joko in the trailer is that he is in a picture ... ;)

> >

> > They certainly did frame him well.

>

> Not sure what this illustrates

 

You guys keep drawing the wrong conclusions. Clearly Joko was set-up; framed, you might say! If you could just see his true colours, it would paint a very different picture.

[Goldfox.5729]

It will be North of Istan at the gray cube on the map, and a bit more North from that.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> It's probably not directly south. More southeast from Ebonhawke and north or around the general area of Dzalana. I'm just speculating based on some chatter from the game I couldn't place. Believe it happens in the Field of Ruin.

>

> Some charr are discussing the concession of Ebonhawke to the humans and one Blood Legion fellow is upset about it saying the charr shouldn't give an inch, where another Ash Legion soldier points out it's not aconcern and since it lies closer to Ash Legion territory they could keep an eye on things regardless, agreeing with the truce.

>

> But you're right, it's never outright stated or marked. Merely implied. Since we don't know for sure, that's something that could be established. And it'd take us back to Ascalon proper. I want to see a new Ascalon map and the Ash Legion Homelands would be a great bit of lore that could be explored.

>

> Let me dream.

 

Dzalana is where harpies and heket come from, bordering Vabbi (the world map puts the name at a very weird place since GW1 marks Dzalana as east of Vabbi, but now it's apparently north now I guess?). Either way, Vabbians would have known if charr lived there, I think, due to the long hostilities between charr and humans, and there's no mention of such.

 

I don't recall this dialogue about Ebonhawke, do you remember where it was said? I could see it referring to due east across the Blazeridge, since the Blood Legion Homelands seem to be north and northeast, it would then make sense if Ash Legion Homelands are east and southeast. The charr *do* originate from east of the Blazeridge Mountains, after all. But Ascalon on a whole is Iron Legion territory, not "Ascalon proper" or even Ascalon improper.

[Underdark.3726]

> @"Goldfox.5729" said:

> It will be North of Istan at the gray cube on the map, and a bit more North from that.

 

I actually think that the map won't be there. Maybe only the final instance, like Fahranur wasn't on the Istan map. We are starting in Desert Highlands, we will intercept a convoy there that is heading possobly to the lab and imo thats a too long walk to the lab. There is an asura gate that leads there but I don't believe is in DH but somewhere close (new map).

[Manimarco Devil.1790]

My dream theory: This episode reveals the origins of Joko. He is not unique or special but part of an extremely powerful group of undead who exist in Dajkah. Joko was one of the more intelligent undead who ventured out instead of thinking in a more limited undead manner (wander around in circles) . He utilized his kin's powers to release the Scarab Plague and decimate Elona so he could begin his rise.

 

Joko doesn't really want to be associated with his kin nor does he want them escaping so eventually he built a massive security fortress at the location off his origin to prevent any of them from coming after him. The fortress is mainly desolate or guarded by a few monstrous beings because he doesn't want anything provoking his kin either lest they begin to wander out to deal the annoyance.

 

In terms of the trailer, the idea is the place has automated defenses and perhaps a few inquest, at Joko's behest) are utilizing Joko's kin to channel the Scarab Plague once more ( testing done on the dead Charr) to conquer the rest of Tyria. Deep underground in the facility, the path opens up to a toxic wasteland where Joko's kin reside (sentient, hostile, but unambitious). The portrait of Joko is there to show how sinister Joko is but despite all his grandeur he is not a unique godking just a paranoid undead lord who doesn't want his past discovered.

 

 

[Nero DarkSlayer.9206]

Anyone know if there's a full version/download of this dark style 'fear not this night'?

 

I would totally 100% buy that song if Anet wants to sell it.

(just don't bundle it with a bunch of BS and charge extra for it)

[Arden.7480]

> @"Nero DarkSlayer.9206" said:

> Anyone know if there's a full version/download of this dark style 'fear not this night'?

>

> I would totally 100% buy that song if Anet wants to sell it.

> (just don't bundle it with a bunch of BS and charge extra for it)

 

 

Unfortunately there is not. But he wrote that there is something special coming soon.

[Arden.7480]

edit: Removed... unnecesary copy

[Donari.5237]

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"Donari.5237" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > We will learn that Joko is still out of the picture

> > > >

> > > > Actually, the main thing we can say about Joko in the trailer is that he is in a picture ... ;)

> > >

> > > They certainly did frame him well.

> >

> > Not sure what this illustrates

>

> You guys keep drawing the wrong conclusions. Clearly Joko was set-up; framed, you might say! If you could just see his true colours, it would paint a very different picture.

 

Sounds like you are one of the few who praise him ... perhaps we should do a poll to find who agrees with you, canvas the readers as it were.

 

... oil see myself out now.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Manimarco Devil.1790" said:

> My dream theory: This episode reveals the origins of Joko. He is not unique or special but part of an extremely powerful group of undead who exist in Dajkah.

 

Sadly, we can debunk this immediately since [we went to Dajkah in GW1](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dajkah_Inlet) where it was a base for Corsairs.

 

Granted we didn't explore it that much, but I think a group of very powerful undead wouldn't go unknown with mortals on their doorstep.

 

Now if you were to say Dzalana or the lands east of Kourna, that'd be more likely.

 

> @"Manimarco Devil.1790" said:

> Joko was one of the more intelligent undead who ventured out instead of thinking in a more limited undead manner (wander around in circles) . He utilized his kin's powers to release the Scarab Plague and decimate Elona so he could begin his rise.

 

While I once advocated the idea that Joko had origins with the Scarab Plague, let's be honest. Could someone as egotistical, narcissistic, and power hungry as Joko remain silent for the 300 year gap we see between the beginning of the Scarab Plague and when he's first mentioned in all of history? Especially if the Scarab Plague was so he could "begin his rise"?

 

> @"Manimarco Devil.1790" said:

> Joko doesn't really want to be associated with his kin nor does he want them escaping so eventually he built a massive security fortress at the location off his origin to prevent any of them from coming after him. The fortress is mainly desolate or guarded by a few monstrous beings because he doesn't want anything provoking his kin either lest they begin to wander out to deal the annoyance.

>

> In terms of the trailer, the idea is the place has automated defenses and perhaps a few inquest, at Joko's behest) are utilizing Joko's kin to channel the Scarab Plague once more ( testing done on the dead Charr) to conquer the rest of Tyria. Deep underground in the facility, the path opens up to a toxic wasteland where Joko's kin reside (sentient, hostile, but unambitious). The portrait of Joko is there to show how sinister Joko is but despite all his grandeur he is not a unique godking just a paranoid undead lord who doesn't want his past discovered.

 

Daybreak pretty much confirmed that Joko and the Inquest hold no relations and are in fact hostile to each other. Aside from Joko wiping out all the Inquest in Fahranur, there's this line:

 

Asura Console: (static) feeling okay? Wait, why are you—(static)

Asura Console: Need (static) this location! Risen (static) swarming (static) the gate (static)

Asura Console: They (static) won't stop! (static) too many of them (static)

 

A recording from the slaughter, which indicates that when said Awakened wiped out the Inquest, the Inquest had so little knowledge of Elona and the Awakened they mistook them for risen.

 

The facility is also outright brought up as an Inquest facility being overrun by the Awakened, rather subtly. When the Fear Not This Night song begins, there's the distorted intercom talking about rumors of undead roaming the facility being false.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > It's probably not directly south. More southeast from Ebonhawke and north or around the general area of Dzalana. I'm just speculating based on some chatter from the game I couldn't place. Believe it happens in the Field of Ruin.

> >

> > Some charr are discussing the concession of Ebonhawke to the humans and one Blood Legion fellow is upset about it saying the charr shouldn't give an inch, where another Ash Legion soldier points out it's not aconcern and since it lies closer to Ash Legion territory they could keep an eye on things regardless, agreeing with the truce.

> >

> > But you're right, it's never outright stated or marked. Merely implied. Since we don't know for sure, that's something that could be established. And it'd take us back to Ascalon proper. I want to see a new Ascalon map and the Ash Legion Homelands would be a great bit of lore that could be explored.

> >

> > Let me dream.

>

> Dzalana is where harpies and heket come from, bordering Vabbi (the world map puts the name at a very weird place since GW1 marks Dzalana as east of Vabbi, but now it's apparently north now I guess?). Either way, Vabbians would have known if charr lived there, I think, due to the long hostilities between charr and humans, and there's no mention of such.

>

> I don't recall this dialogue about Ebonhawke, do you remember where it was said? I could see it referring to due east across the Blazeridge, since the Blood Legion Homelands seem to be north and northeast, it would then make sense if Ash Legion Homelands are east and southeast. The charr *do* originate from east of the Blazeridge Mountains, after all. But Ascalon on a whole is Iron Legion territory, not "Ascalon proper" or even Ascalon improper.

 

It can border both Dzalana to the east/northeast and extend as far as the border to the Field of Ruin and still be in Ascalon without encroaching into Iron territory or breaking into Dzalana, while expanding eastward as big as they want to establish it. What we see of Ascalon on the world map in GW2 is actually a very small portion. Ascalon proper is huge.

 

The human kingdom that was established in the land in the Iron territories are actually not all that big, though the Iron territories could also reasonably extend further east. Likewise with Blood and a potential Flame homeland (assuming they own anything at this point that wasn't beaten out of them beyond their base in the Flame Citadel).

 

As for Vabbian's knowing about charr, I'm sure most of Elona are aware they exist at this point. Branded charr are regular enemies down there.

 

They probably don't have many dealings with them since a potential Ash territory wouldn't cross beyond Dzalana where the Vabbians would keep hylek and harpies in check (not to mention charr didn't really do much beyond Ascalon in GW1). The humans of Elona never really pushed into Dzalana let alone what lies beyond it. But I'm sure between GW1 and GW2 Elona had at least some initial contact with the charr and if nothing else they certainly had contact with the branded charr well before we officially re-established contact with Elona.

 

I don't recall the exact location where the conversation happens in the Field of Ruin, it's been a while. Maybe around the delegation tent?

[Conqueror.3682]

I can just think about the scarab plague, and Joko using the inquest facilities to spread it all over Tyria.

[Fenom.9457]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > Clearly it means Zhaitan was a Joko minion all along, and we're finally getting the proper fight.

> > >

> > > Either that or the tree got screwed again, or corrupted...

> > >

> > > It could also be GW2's version of Hal9000, or another crazy Sylvari, never get tired of killing those or anything.

> >

> > Why not combine the theories in a way: Zhaitan could be an Awakened created by the Sphere of Death and Shadow Palawa Joko and the Nightmare that Faolain embraced on Orr could be yet another manifestation of Joko's presence.

>

> You forget something - the dragon that ate most of the fallen god's power. So hear this: Kralk finds Zaithan's corpse and resurrects him as Branded (like he did with the dead creature in the last cutscene of PoF). Then Branded Zhaitan brings Joko back from the dead where we left him imprisoned as a Risen Branded (or Branded Risen?). Then Joko travels to the Fire Islands and creates an army of Risen Branded Awakened Destroyers, at which point all the races on Tyria just give up.

 

 

I know you exaggerated st the end, but I would love for kralkatorrik’s plan to revolve around increasing his army. He is more powerful that ever before, and his army should be too. He does this by branding the most powerful corpses he can find, like zhaitan and Mordremotb

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> It can border both Dzalana to the east/northeast and extend as far as the border to the Field of Ruin and still be in Ascalon without encroaching into Iron territory or breaking into Dzalana, while expanding eastward as big as they want to establish it. *What we see of Ascalon on the world map in GW2 is actually a very small portion. Ascalon proper is huge.*

>

> The human kingdom that was established in the land in the Iron territories are actually not all that big, though the Iron territories could also reasonably extend further east. Likewise with Blood and a potential Flame homeland (assuming they own anything at this point that wasn't beaten out of them beyond their base in the Flame Citadel).

 

The italicized is entirely false. You seem to be replacing "Ascalon" with "the whole of charr territories". Charr territories in whole is indeed large - nearly the size of all Elona, in fact, if not larger - but Ascalon (the Iron Legion territories) itself is exactly what we see in GW2. The area nestled between the Shiverpeak Mountains and Blazeridge Mountains - the two mountain ranges creating a hook-like shape cradling Ascalon in.

 

While there are indications that Ascalonians had expanded into the Crystal Desert at some point in the past, Ebonhawke was the southern edge of the human nation of Ascalon, cradled into where the Shiverpeaks and the Blazeridge Mountains meet. This meeting of the mountains marks the southern edge of Ascalon whether you're talking about the human nation or the region that is occupied by both Iron Legion and humans. The human kingdom, in the majority of its later time, stretched from Ebonhawke to the [Gaban Estate](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Gaban_estate), which lied on [the edge of what got affected by the Searing](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Tyria_unexplored_map_2.jpg) - curiously far north of Hrangmer.

 

The Blazeridge Mountains themselves were never controlled by charr or human - they were, and still are, ogre territory though they've been trying to expand in the past few decades (and succeeding thanks to the Dragonbrand distracting the Iron Legion). When the charr first expanded, in fact, [the sole line about their expansion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr) indicates that the charr skirted around the Blazeridge Mountains entirely.

 

East of the Blazeridge is [confirmed](wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Legions_of_the_Charr#The_Return_of_the_Legions) to be Blood Legion territories - it is where the Blood Citadel, capital of the Blood Legion Homelands, lies.

 

Flame Legion's capital is the Citadel of Flame. Before the rebellion that overthrew them, they had am uch larger presence in what in GW1 was called "Charr Homelands" and in GW2 is called "Blood Legion Homelands" (aka the area marked north of Ascalon. Immediately after the rebellion, the Flame Legion had retreated into the northern edges of the Blazeridge - into the Citadel of Flame that is situated in Hrangmer. What territory the Flame Legion managed to retain now lies between Blood and Iron, and is effectively Fireheart Rise (and perhaps a bit north of). Aforementioned Gaban's Estate being north of Hrangmer implies that during and prior to GW1, the Flame Legion actually lost control of Hrangmer, and that perhaps the finding of the titans was on a sortie into enemy territory - fun facts.

 

Ash Legion's local is largley unknown, though if that dialogue you mentioned is not a misremembrance, it would place the Ash Legion territory due east or east by southeast of Ebonhawke, just on the otherside the southern Blazeridge Mountains (perhaps including though given ogre presence in the Crystal Desert this is unlikely - said ogre presence is also why it's unlikely to be the land between Ebonhawke and Dzalana, which would be where the Desert Gate skirts around; said gate is a third reason such would be unlikely, as before being sealed it would have been a human-used route, and it's unlikely they'd put such a trade route on the edge of a hostile nation's border).

 

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> As for Vabbian's knowing about charr, I'm sure most of Elona are aware they exist at this point. Branded charr are regular enemies down there.

 

At this point yes, but back in GW1? Not a single mention except for "far off stories". If they were so close as you suggest, they'd know. And the charr would use those lands to their benefit when they invaded the human kingdoms in GW1 - the units that had assaulted Orr went through Ascalon first during the chaos, why would they do this if they could have ignored Ascalon entirely? Why wouldn't they assault Ascalon from the south if they held an entire legion there, rather than fight their way through the Great Northern Wall? It makes **zero** tactical sense. Traversing a mountain range and edge of a desert is far easier than bringing down a giant wall or blitzkrieging through an entire nation, respectively for their options.

 

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> They probably don't have many dealings with them since a potential Ash territory wouldn't cross beyond Dzalana where the Vabbians would keep hylek and harpies in check (not to mention charr didn't really do much beyond Ascalon in GW1).

 

Didn't do much except for assaulting every human nation they could at the orders of the Titans, happening at the very beginning of the franchise. All for the sake of wiping out humanity.

 

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> The humans of Elona never really pushed into Dzalana let alone what lies beyond it.

 

Except for when they pushed into the Crystal Desert which borders Dzalana, at least two times over (by the Primeval Dynasty and by Turai Ossa - assuming, of course, that the Seekers were not Elonians), in order to try to establish colonies in there.

 

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> I don't recall the exact location where the conversation happens in the Field of Ruin, it's been a while. Maybe around the delegation tent?

 

Couldn't find anything on wiki but I'll look around. It would be our sole hint to the location of Ash Legion territories if accurate.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The italicized is entirely false. You seem to be replacing "Ascalon" with "the whole of charr territories". Charr territories in whole is indeed large - nearly the size of all Elona, in fact, if not larger - but Ascalon (the Iron Legion territories) itself is exactly what we see in GW2. The area nestled between the Shiverpeak Mountains and Blazeridge Mountains - the two mountain ranges creating a hook-like shape cradling Ascalon in.

 

For the purpose of what I've stated "Ascalon" and "the whole of charr territories" are the same thing. It's not false in that I'm trying to mislead anyone. Most people would get that I'm referencing the charr territories when I say "Ascalon". If you want to play semantics on that, sure. That's correct. But you're making much ado about what I said and then essentially confirmed what I was getting at. I feel like we're talking past each other and I don't understand why.

 

Rest of that is cool to know, good history lesson. I still think Ash Legion territories are probably out on the north/northeastern border of Dzalana and the Field of Ruin the whole of it encompassing some stretch out further east than we can currently see.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> At this point yes, but back in GW1? Not a single mention except for "far off stories". If they were so close as you suggest, they'd know. And the charr would use those lands to their benefit when they invaded the human kingdoms in GW1 - the units that had assaulted Orr went through Ascalon first during the chaos, why would they do this if they could have ignored Ascalon entirely? Why wouldn't they assault Ascalon from the south if they held an entire legion there, rather than fight their way through the Great Northern Wall? It makes zero tactical sense. Traversing a mountain range and edge of a desert is far easier than bringing down a giant wall or blitzkrieging through an entire nation, respectively for their options.

 

We don't have any indication that they did or if any of this speculation is even close to the mark. But for the sake of argument suppose the Ash Legion did share a border with Dzalana? The humans never really went into it. It's also probably larger than we can see and there's no evidence the Ash Legion charr pushed into it either. So it's completely possible they never ran into each other with a potentially massive no-mans land territory separating them, later made even worse with Kralkatorrik's flight south.

 

For the charr to push from the potential Ash Legion Homelands here, they'd have had to cross the whole of Dzalana, the inhospitable Crystal Desert, probably get through that mountain pass at the tail end there, and island hop to Orr. It wouldn't make practical sense when they could just cross through the territory they control and neutral norn lands. Which is what they did. Also of note Ash wasn't in control of it's destiny back then, the Flame Legion was the top dog and called the shots.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Didn't do much except for assaulting every human nation they could at the orders of the Titans, happening at the very beginning of the franchise. All for the sake of wiping out humanity.

 

Yeah, Flame Legion weren't the nicest guys around. Not that the charr were ever humanities biggest fans what with pushing an entire legion out of it's territory, but the Flame Legion's 'gods' weren't exactly the greatest thing to happen to the charr either. That's in the past though. We're all buddy/buddy now. More or less. Charr and humans are pretty good at killing stuff together when they're not killing each other.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Except for when they pushed into the Crystal Desert which borders Dzalana, at least two times over (by the Primeval Dynasty and by Turai Ossa - assuming, of course, that the Seekers were not Elonians), in order to try to establish colonies in there.

 

Yeah, it didn't work out. They all pretty much died in the Crystal Desert. The best Vabbi managed was to hold the line at their border from all the hostile baddies coming out from there before the brand made everything even worse.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Couldn't find anything on wiki but I'll look around. It would be our sole hint to the location of Ash Legion territories if accurate.

 

I could use some iron ore and a go at Sam anyway. I'll head out there and keep my ears open. If I run into it I'll document it.