Bring Back 5 Man Ranked Que - Needs To Happen At This Point - Solo/Duo Failed

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Ioras Dagnir.3927" said:

> Nope you are missing my point entirely and twisting my words to infer something else, you haven't listened to anything or you are being purposefully ignorant.

>

> 1. Pug stomp farm is a fallacy. it already been said that 50% of the time there were premades vs pugs the pugs actually won, that means the other 50% other time it was teams vs teams. I will assume you know what the definition of a fallacy is. 1.1 Same algorithm different mmr, back then the algorithm still matched teams against each other first and foremost.

>

> 2. **Ranked allows for progression and reward**, while casual doesn't. You forgot to quote me on that. Higher risk = higher reward. So ranked is the place to be competitive without being in an elimination tournament, not casual. If we are forcing playerbases into different queues and solo players don't want to face teams they should be the ones playing solo/duoQ in casual not the otherway around. I don't want to stomp pugs, back in s4 it was good for a break when facing tough opponents but 90% of the time I would much rather face other teams of similar skill and have good quality matches. That's what it means to have healthy competition. Yet you seem to repeatedly try and pull this victim card, nah I dont care for solo players and I don't imagine anyone else does either, thinking teams just want to farm you is flattering yourself. This is where your thinking and mine differs greatly. I'm not a pip farm warrior and you clearly dont have a competitive bone in your body. If you had met me on these forums before you would know even before ATs I was fully advocating only allowing 5man premades into ranked, but I know its not realistic because of queues and population.

>

> 3. Take OW and R6S for example, both of which have successful esports btw, no player in their right mind would vote out teams, because they enjoy good quality pvp and their ranked system actively encourages team and clans to form (they also have the advantage of built in vc). But it is these social interactions that makes communities grow, ours atm is so lacking and has been since the forced soloQ and now the game mode is getting more toxic and less populated. Correlation and causation can be observed if you open your eyes.

>

> 4. Newsflash the current system has been abused by wintraders and throwers for seasons now, teams can protect you personally from being affected. You throw the word abuse in like it is a crime to want to play with other people you trust more than randos because its simply more efficient to be organised and cooperative.

> The only message you are sending is you are scared of losing rank to people who are more willing and more dedicated to winning than you are, you want to keeping doing your pip farm solo and cling to a meaningless rng number a leaderboard that nobody else actually cares about.

>

> tdlr: Anet catered to the wrong playerbase.

 

1) That's not entirely correct: What that means is that 49% or less of the times that a full 5 man premade fought a full 5 man random solos the premade won. But the actual instances of that happening was 1% of the time. So 99% of 5 man premades went against teams that had at least a duo premade in them (in Season 1, in subsequent seasons there had to be at least a 2 man pre-made in your team to queue up vs 5 man premades).

2) True

3) That's the case for all instances of competitive pvp games. It's a small wonder that GW2 was booted out of ESL one season after they removed ranked teams. The problem is that to get more people in what was already a growing game-mode in gw2 (sPvP) they turned the Leagues system into a easy farmable source of PvE rewards. Which brought in the PvE farmers and completionists, people not interested in competitiveness, but in getting the most loots. Which then skewed the vote towards a less competitive game, which broke PvP, which is supposed to be a competitive place.

4)Exactly!

 

Your TLDR sums up the issue precisely.> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >

> > > @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > > The "play with friends" excuse has always been either for people that want to smurf, or people that need to be carried.

> > >

> > > There are ATs for people that want to do serious 5 man. There is WvW for social team pvp.

> >

> > LOL, you can't really be serious. WvW is an entirely different game mode. sPvP **is** a team based mode, it's natural state is to be played in 5 man teams. Impeding that simply prevents people from actually being able to be competitive in that game mode.

> > AT's have serious time-constraints, and are incredibly inaccessible for the majority of people.

>

> The only people that benefit from 5 man ranked would be people exploiting the system. This is how I see the game modes and who they are for:

> * unranked: casual teams up to 4 other friends

> * ranked: completive environment for entire spectrum of players. Can play with 1 friend until you make top 250.

> * AT: 5 man teams only. Top tier competition -- currently being tweaked to make it worth peoples time to play if they aren't top tier players.

> * private servers: anything from hard core private scrimmages to PvE dailies.

> * WvW: social team play with large groups

>

1) The system was there when PvP was at it's healthiest, and with the highest population. That simple fact denies everything you said. But i'll rebate it none the less.:

Unranked is "Practice mode", like the name said it's the step prior to playing ranked, it's where people should go to really test builds and comps. Also, like you said it's the mainstay for casual players.

Ranked is the competitive environment. You can't have the entire spectrum of players in ranked, because half the spectrum aren't really interested in being competitive, just farming. Also you can't be competitive in a team-based mode and be forced to queue solo. That's why you don't have tournaments and pro competitions with draft teams.

ATs: Aren't really what you said. You can't have 2 competitive environments. ATs should be an extention of the ladder system. But because there's no team ladder, ATs exclude the majority of players interested in the game mode but that can't grow into proper teams for lack of proper ladder progress.

Also ATs don't take into account MMR, they simply go all out which means that lower ranked teams are immediately excluded, which prevents them from growing, thus stagnating the competitive environment.

Finally AT's in their current format also exclude players simply because they're based on fixed time windows. Which means that most people can't be placed.

Private servers, are what they are... Private servers, they're there for people to do what they want with them

WvW is a whole different game mode from sPvP, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > You can't smurf or be carried in GW2 ranked since they made it so that your team's rank is the same as the highest player (plus probably an extra for team factor). Get your facts straight.

> Here is a quote from the wiki article about match making. Note the words average. I would try getting your facts straight before you start bashing others:

> Scoring/Rating/@distance

> Score added or removed based on the distance between the potential roster's average effective rating (i.e. rating - deviation) and the average effective rating of all selected rosters, including both teams.

>

Oh boy... Are you serious... I'm having a hard time being polite here....

**That quote you copy pasted is for the current system without team queues. When there were team queues the algorithm was different, obviously, TO ACCOUNT FOR PREMADES!!!**

Here's an actual citation of how it **used to work** from Season 2 patch notes:

>>Matchmaking

 

>As we’ve mentioned previously, Ranked matchmaking in PvP during season two will now be based primarily on your current division placement and a predetermined “pip range” that extends from that spot. We’ll search for other players that fall within your pip range (which can extend outside of your division depending on where you’re currently placed) and pair you up with teammates who have a similar skill level to your own. Then we’ll find you opponents within that same pip range and pair them against you, regardless of their skill level. For players that queue as a pre-made group, the pip range that we’ll use to find you both teammates and opponents will be based off of the player with the highest division placement in your group (which, as a reminder, is a change that we’ve already introduced to the game prior to the end of season one).

 

>There is an additional matchmaking change that we’ll be making which will affect a specific type of match-up:

 

>Five-person premade groups will never be matched up against a group made up of five solo players.

 

>Only 1% of all Ranked matches played in season one were a full five-person premade group vs. a group of five solo players, and even then, the win rate for those five solo player teams in those cases was consistently at or above 50% throughout the entire season. That being said, even though the instances of this specific type of matchup occurring were actually very rare during season one, we still felt that matchmaking would be improved overall if we made sure that this type of match-up was simply no longer possible in future seasons.

 

>Lastly, we are pleased to report that matchmaking wait times have been reduced by an average of four minutes for both Ranked and Unranked play for season two.

 

As you can see that's how it worked. Seriously... Idk if you're intentionally being disingenuous, or just too new to the game to even be worth discussing this with...

 

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > The fact that your arguments are these, just means you're arguing from ignorance, and don't really know what you're talking about and should be given no credence, pretty much.

> > It's not hard to see it: For 4 and a half years PvP was growing stronger and better, even with the slight hiccup stemming from the poor decisions concerning balance, pvp was going strong. They removed ranked teams in all forms ~2 years ago, the vote was to be for a trial season, and then reviewed. I'd really like to see the vote if it was said it would be permanent instead of a trial season.

> > PvP has only gone downhill since season 5, and it's been only getting worse.

>

> If you think getting rid of the pip system destroyed PvP, I can't really take your opinion seriously. Everyone shouldn't be legendary just because they played a lot of matches. There should be some skill component factored into it.

I never said the pip system destroyed PvP. For one the Pip System is still there. What destroyed PvP was **ADDING** the pip system, and keeping it, as well as **removing team queues**. I never even **mentioned** pips ever in any post.

 

There **should** be a skill component, but sadly, because seasons are too short, and the game pop is too small, you can't really tell... You rarely have proper matches with people of your rank. Especially as you climb higher, you end up with 1-2 opponents at your rank. Can't argue there's a proper progression system with this.

Also idk where having teams would reduce that skill component.

 

Also the pips system is actually more farmable right now, because you get the pips, and the chest rewards simply on games played, not on rank progression. Which makes rank, and actually being competitive matter less for rewards than it ever did.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > PvP has only gone downhill since season 5, and it's been only getting worse.

> >

> > If you think getting rid of the pip system destroyed PvP, I can't really take your opinion seriously. Everyone shouldn't be legendary just because they played a lot of matches. There should be some skill component factored into it.

> Removal of 1-5 party queue in ranked happened in season5 as well. He's referring to that change.

 

Seasons 1-4 were hands down the worst 4 seasons of the league. The only thing they had going for them were more interest in PvP because the pro league wasn't quite dead yet.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> 1) The system was there when PvP was at it's healthiest, and with the highest population. That simple fact denies everything you said. But i'll rebate it none the less.:

 

What are your benchmark to say GW2 PvP was going strong 2 years ago? In terms of views it was irrelevant on both twitch and ESL rated content. All the money from any league comes from advertising money. All the advertising money is going to games that bring in viewers. GW2 views were a factor of 100 less than other games. The causation for ending ESL was the contract was up, and after quite a bit of effort and resources spent on it, viewership for the ESL matches and GW2 in general was irrelevant compared to other games.

 

Separating peoples rating from the reward pips was the best thing they have done. Matchmaking in the diamond and legendary division was truly awful seasons 1-4 because people couldn't lose rating. The only reason the population was higher was the game wasn't as old as it is now (6 years in august), and ESL was still hanging on by a thread.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>Oh boy... Are you serious... I'm having a hard time being polite here....

>That quote you copy pasted is for the current system without team queues. When there were team queues the algorithm was different, obviously, TO ACCOUNT FOR PREMADES!!!

>Here's an actual citation of how it used to work from Season 2 patch notes: ....

 

In case you forgot what you typed:

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>You can't smurf or be carried in GW2 ranked since they made it so that your team's rank is the same as the highest player (plus probably an extra for team factor). Get your facts straight.

>The fact that your arguments are these, just means you're arguing from ignorance, and don't really know what you're talking about and should be given no credence, pretty much.

 

That statement is pretty clear you thought that it isn't possible to smurf now. Both unranked and ranked *currently* allow more than one player to team together. They use the average rating. If you queue with people rated lower than you, you end up with better odds of the other team being less skilled than you. This can easily be abused by having a skilled friend with a low rated alt. If you are going to keep making things up that fit your version of reality nothing productive is going to come out of this. It just bothers me when people spew out misinformation like it is factual.

 

[Drafigo.4690]

Honestly would be happy if you could queue with 3 instead of only 2 this next season. When it was 5 you had teams grouping up and hitting Legendary fast, this last season if took awhile for players to reach legendary status and it felt real. I would say stay away from 5 man queueing up in ranked but there should be a 5 man team queue somewhere tho maybe separate. But I really would like to group up in 3 man for this next season. Stay Frosty!

 

[ezd.6359]

To make everyone happy we need separate queue for 5 man and those talented individuals who like to play solo vs organized groups. I personally don't want to see things like these in ranked. Not any more!

https://i.imgur.com/nLdQeaG.jpg

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > 1) The system was there when PvP was at it's healthiest, and with the highest population. That simple fact denies everything you said. But i'll rebate it none the less.:

>

> What are your benchmark to say GW2 PvP was going strong 2 years ago? In terms of views it was irrelevant on both twitch and ESL rated content. All the money from any league comes from advertising money. All the advertising money is going to games that bring in viewers. GW2 views were a factor of 100 less than other games. The causation for ending ESL was the contract was up, and after quite a bit of effort and resources spent on it, viewership for the ESL matches and GW2 in general was irrelevant compared to other games.

 

Playing it. The fact that before HoT, CJ stated a few times that PvP was at the all time highest population. I don't have that quote in hand it was 5 years ago, sue me.

It's not hard to see by playing it. Also, yeah Pro competitions were a thing, aren't anymore. The contract was up, and wasn't renewed why? Because the game was crap, there was no new blood coming in because there was no ranked play for teams.

 

>

> Separating peoples rating from the reward pips was the best thing they have done. Matchmaking in the diamond and legendary division was truly awful seasons 1-4 because people couldn't lose rating. The only reason the population was higher was the game wasn't as old as it is now (6 years in august), and ESL was still hanging on by a thread.

>

You **could** lose rating! wtf are you tanking about? Do you even know what you're talking about?

 

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >Oh boy... Are you serious... I'm having a hard time being polite here....

> >That quote you copy pasted is for the current system without team queues. When there were team queues the algorithm was different, obviously, TO ACCOUNT FOR PREMADES!!!

> >Here's an actual citation of how it used to work from Season 2 patch notes: ....

>

> In case you forgot what you typed:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >You can't smurf or be carried in GW2 ranked since they made it so that your team's rank is the same as the highest player (plus probably an extra for team factor). Get your facts straight.

> >The fact that your arguments are these, just means you're arguing from ignorance, and don't really know what you're talking about and should be given no credence, pretty much.

>

> That statement is pretty clear you thought that it isn't possible to smurf now. Both unranked and ranked *currently* allow more than one player to team together. They use the average rating. If you queue with people rated lower than you, you end up with better odds of the other team being less skilled than you. This can easily be abused by having a skilled friend with a low rated alt. If you are going to keep making things up that fit your version of reality nothing productive is going to come out of this. It just bothers me when people spew out misinformation like it is factual.

>

Ok, i should have meant "you **couldn't**". I think it doesn't take a stretch of imagination to understand that i was talking about smurfing with teams, since that's what you were talking about. I guess i shouldn't overestimate people's ability to read and follow a text.

 

Currently you can queue with people lower ranked people because:

1) they removed that algorithm that was in place for ranked teams, because they removed ranked teams. And that algorithm prevented using lower queued team mates to get lower ranking.

2) The population for PvP is so low matchmaker **has** to match people with lower rank or make us wait for 10+ minutes.

 

 

> @"ezd.6359" said:

> To make everyone happy we need separate queue for 5 man and those talented individuals who like to play solo vs organized groups. I personally don't want to see things like these in ranked. Not any more!

> https://i.imgur.com/nLdQeaG.jpg

>

Show us your current match history, and prove to us that current system doesn't provide runaway scores equal or greater than that... Because i could probably show you the reverse, a 5 man premade guild team losing to a 3+1+1 team in ranked, by similar scores. Because i've been there lots of times, both as the 5 man premade and the randos team that beat them.

Not to mention that picture doesn't prove **anything**. Because after season 2, or maybe even season 1, you had a button at the end of the match that allowed you to party up with your previous team, and play again with them as a premade.

It would show up as a premade, but it could be essentially a full five man solo queuers that simply grouped up to play together a second time, without voice coms.

[choovanski.5462]

consider this: when a person advocates for solo queue, they are speaking for one person. however someone advocating for team queue is speaking for five.

 

if you want to grow population in a multiplayer game, i wouldn’t suggest catering to people with no friends who play alone. those who are social & want to play with others are going to bring more new blood into the game, & create a community that increases retention (ie people like to play w their friends/guidies so they stick around). people who want to play with others are also far more likely to recommend the game to people, & to teach them how to play (very important for retention).

 

catering to people who just play alone & care only about their leaderboard position is going to create a toxic antisocial community rife with leaderboard exploitation. which is basically what we have now.

 

keeping the game solo queue is just going to be continuing the current trajectory, nosedive. things wont get better without change.

 

because honestly, when you’re competing with DotA, Overwatch & Fortnite- having “can’t play with friends” as a feature is going to drive away so many players.

 

(as an example i was considering getting this game for my girlfriend, but not being able to play ranked together is a deal breaker. like why would i get her a game that we couldn’t play together???? so no buy from me)

 

so sticking w solo is a poor plan for both the current & prospective community.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

So, this thread dropped clear off page #1 right after the Mesmer SS+ tier patch "which caught the new wave of conversation." That's too bad because the community really should be harping on this topic and keeping the fire lit.

 

Bumping this one more time before saying goodbye to all of you! I've quit Guild Wars 2 as of about 2 weeks ago. GG boys, enjoy what's left of this game's lifespan.

[EthanLightheart.9168]

No, teamsearch would be too long for those that aren't in a pvp guild. Very bad idea.

[mes.4607]

Bads get carried by 5 man teams. It happened in the old system. There used to be 5 man teams allowed in ranked pvp and it was terrible. A coordinated team versus pugs is not even... Go take your 5 man to ATs

[JTGuevara.9018]

OP, I wholeheartedly agree. Last time I checked, conquest is a _team_ game. People fail to realize that win-trading is _not_ because of queues, it's because of ANet's lack of action. Bring back 5v5.

 

Also, another topic that I see lost in this conversation is rating. If pvp had a team rating instead of an individual rating, it would encourage more teamwork. Players wouldn't worry so much about their rating and would play less selfishly in matches. A collective team rating is also more stable and would force better matches. Individual skill ratings give a false idea of the skill of the team. Looking back, taking away 5v5 was a bad move. I think we can all see that now.

 

Sometimes, I think people don't want to change. They come up with all sorts of excuses to keep from changing (lack of population, MMO pvp doesn't 'work'). Honestly, does it even _matter_ at this point? pvp is just a farm. Balance is obviously not good either with all the elite spec dps powercreep.

[Lucentfir.7430]

> @"JTGuevara.9018" said:

> OP, I wholeheartedly agree. Last time I checked, conquest is a _team_ game. People fail to realize that win-trading is _not_ because of queues, it's because of ANet's lack of action. Bring back 5v5.

>

> Also, another topic that I see lost in this conversation is rating. If pvp had a team rating instead of an individual rating, it would encourage more teamwork. Players wouldn't worry so much about their rating and would play less selfishly in matches. A collective team rating is also more stable and would force better matches. Individual skill ratings give a false idea of the skill of the team. Looking back, taking away 5v5 was a bad move. I think we can all see that now.

>

> Sometimes, I think people don't want to change. They come up with all sorts of excuses to keep from changing (lack of population, MMO pvp doesn't 'work'). Honestly, does it even _matter_ at this point? pvp is just a farm. Balance is obviously not good either with all the elite spec dps powercreep.

 

Then by all means if you want it done with team rating system only , make ranked exclusively premade 5v5s or ,duo, trio, five man mixed queue, and just remove the option to ever queue solo considering people vouching for the return of full premade and making it a mixed ranked queue are pulling out the stops to get premades back into ranked, like comments saying people don't have friends and want to play alone in some sort of isolation bubble. Not really the case, people have friends, but in a competative area(Despite conquest not having any competative integrity or worth nowadays), people don't take their friends that they know aren't really good or understand fully what conquest is about, they take the ones that know their stuff, and know how to play. Another thing too is mockery of caring about personal rating (you know who you are), that jab is a double edge sword because why even propose return of 5 man premades because of win traders (which really only happens at the top end) if you didn't care about rating/placement in the first place? Win trading is rampant because Anet refuses to do anything of actual worth to offenders, and top portion of players who engage in shady practices want to take shortcuts for titles and to see their name on the boards, for maximum meme epeen bragging.

 

We can't meet with a happy solution for both sides of players (team and solo) in this thread, having a mixed ranked queue option(1-5 premade) separate from current ranked queue option (Solo/duo) with their own respective leaderboards and MMR, because someone is going to say the population is too small to support an additional queue(most likely vouching for the return of 5 man instead) And people who like to roll solo that don't like the idea into running into a 5 man with pugs(pug RNG vs a team with decent composition planned before even queuing) will protest against it. Options should be there for both player types, but there's no coming to a agreement because people think it should be one or the other, and frankly going with just either one is going to do nothing about the downward spiral of Spvp.

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

At first I was against it. But the balance patches have changed my mind. Let teams even face randos

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

AT participation has been high lately. I saw 20 teams teams enter mid-day eastern time, yesterday. Can we consider bringing back 5 man que for ranked?

 

You know... if players were to receive more gold per match, depending on how many players they were in a party with... everyone would make 5 man teams for the 5 man team game of conquest. I mean, it's not a bad idea. This is worth Arenanet's consideration.