The Problem with this game.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > > @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > > > The game simply moved on or do you prefer to be the same as first two years when WREN is the meta?

> > > >

> > > > With the change of meta, necessity of population balance becomes prominent.

> > >

> > > I think you mean the GWEN meta not WREN. No thats not what this thread is about. More classes have now moved into META and wanted by organized groups now, which is good for the health of the game.

> > >

> > > However the game has also become very PUG orientated and less organized groups and big guilds than before. So if you are just pugging I think that group comp metas are not even a thing.

> > >

> > > If its a organized guild comp I think there are still a lot of restrictions on classes and builds that not much has changed. Most guilds still dont want thief's and rangers in their comps. So Like no much has changed other than the guild fight scene has deteriorated.

> >

> > Oh yea, is gwen, I wonder why I thought of the little bird.

> >

> > It is understandable why people complains about the dps since compare to the past, you have to react a bit more faster else dead meat. Thus, fights usually get decided rather fast since most people generally don't react that fast and react the same way. Still, game moved on. The high dps is a fundamental issue that can't be fixed since the game already decided to not raise the level cap thus the stats are not keeping up, making the scaling off the initial mathematical design.

>

> Err people arn't necessarily complaining about damage being too high, the complaint is the brain dead and skill less application of it. Passive gameplay, get out of jail free cards, low risk and low skill floor. Scourge/FB trains right now is the current meta. It cant be anymore simple to play. Can play with eyes closed. Push a couple buttons and win.

 

Same thingy yo. It is not like the first meta is any more harder to play.

 

I can only see that the current classes can do way more than the classes before. It is because they can do way more, they seems overpowered, certain classes usefulness then become questionable if one put them into compositions. Specialization, I feel, in essence boosted the level virtually and at the same time, POF specializations were made to "fix" previous issues. Regardless, it should be something beyond level 80 but since gw2 decided to cap at 80, it makes the other traits and skills kinda out of place then the balance team had to balance those and often those balances usually done not in a mathematical manner that is align to the base design. This in essence make everything out of place. Then, you combine with the fact that balance also need to include pve, simply kinda ambitious and unrealistic. So, we end up with something too useful and overshadow the rest.

[Kaiser.9873]

> @"Warlord.9074" said:

> Alright so after taking a 7-8 month break from the game. It gave me a new perspective into what the core problems with the game. I'll concede that the game is already ruined and that now it can't be fixed.

>

> Point 1 Everyone is too mobile. Every class. Some are meant to be more mobile than others but in general there is too much access to mobility in certain specs that I think circumvents how they were originally intended.

>

>

> Point 2 everyone does too much damage, Every class. Everyone should be able to do good damage, but the amount of damage a skill does should be based on risk and difficulty and that's just not the case in this game.

>

>

> lastly there is too mush sustain and get out of jail free cards for classes that are over buffed in point 1 and Point 2.

>

>

> TLDR, Super Mobile, I win button, get out of jail free cards applied to too many classes and spec without any risk whatsoever and extremely low skill floors to pull off. Now you have gw2 a game with great potential destroyed and can never be fixed.

>

> How it got this way my opinion on that. Anet caving to players who want to be god mode without any risk at all just because someone else who played harder than them won. Repeatedly caving to this over and over.. Then permanently breaking every class some way more than others based on which players cryed the most and who yelled the loudest.

 

The problem with this game is players that HAVE To have everything their way, and REFUSE to adapt to the new aspects of the game.

[XenesisII.1540]

Got hit with this today, didn't even see them the entire time.

This game is awesome XD

 


 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Got hit with this today, didn't even see them the entire time.

> This game is awesome XD

>

> 

>

>

He damaged your Legendary Armor??!!! That beast!!!!

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest. DE is more annoying and gimmicky than it is strong. High burst, but virtually nothing else.

The rifle is horribly-designed, but not OP.

 

Again, the problem here is the safety from which this can be achieved. Lots of stealth stacking negates much of the risk for this kind of damage considering it takes more than 20s of waiting while building malice in range to achieve. You can out-play the damage pretty easily because it always has a pretty massive tell (only covered in ZvZ play, but your group should be running near-perma projectile denial anyways) and then just run away, but it makes combat lack interaction and is just anti-fun.

 

As far as combat in previous metas requiring more skill... it generally did. Hammertrain wasn't as facerolly as people make it out to be, and GWEN was only really "ideal" for pug zergs; the top GvG groups all ran a number of thieves and mesmers as critical outplay and periphery resources, some of which also ran a small number of rangers for healing spring and downed state retrieval - leaving only really the engineer out of the ZvZ scene, though grenades at the time was a potent midrange build that some groups did experiment with a lot with mild success given the value of healing turret as well.

 

One-pushes weren't as common, either. Banners, Search and Rescue, and Transfusion were all a pretty big part of the meta and required a lot more timing and group coordination than just "spam AoEs and eventually people will start getting low so we can onepush" like what we're seeing now. Boons were less common and required coordination to rotate and often weren't even permanent, barrier is just an outright better version of healing (goes beyond max hp), and the backline and frontline needed to position themselves well to not die.

 

7 of 8 being useful despite 4 being dominant is much better than 2 being dominant with another 2 being useful. There's always going to be a class that's more in demand than others and likely one that won't really be in demand.

[Warlord.9074]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest. DE is more annoying and gimmicky than it is strong. High burst, but virtually nothing else.

> The rifle is horribly-designed, but not OP.

>

> Again, the problem here is the safety from which this can be achieved. Lots of stealth stacking negates much of the risk for this kind of damage considering it takes more than 20s of waiting while building malice in range to achieve. You can out-play the damage pretty easily because it always has a pretty massive tell (only covered in ZvZ play, but your group should be running near-perma projectile denial anyways) and then just run away, but it makes combat lack interaction and is just anti-fun.

>

> As far as combat in previous metas requiring more skill... it generally did. Hammertrain wasn't as facerolly as people make it out to be, and GWEN was only really "ideal" for pug zergs; the top GvG groups all ran a number of thieves and mesmers as critical outplay and periphery resources, some of which also ran a small number of rangers for healing spring and downed state retrieval - leaving only really the engineer out of the ZvZ scene, though grenades at the time was a potent midrange build that some groups did experiment with a lot with mild success given the value of healing turret as well.

>

> One-pushes weren't as common, either. Banners, Search and Rescue, and Transfusion were all a pretty big part of the meta and required a lot more timing and group coordination than just "spam AoEs and eventually people will start getting low so we can onepush" like what we're seeing now. Boons were less common and required coordination to rotate and often weren't even permanent, barrier is just an outright better version of healing (goes beyond max hp), and the backline and frontline needed to position themselves well to not die.

>

> 7 of 8 being useful despite 4 being dominant is much better than 2 being dominant with another 2 being useful. There's always going to be a class that's more in demand than others and likely one that won't really be in demand.

 

It's not a good comparison to kill shot warrior. Killshot base warrior the only thing that is similar is that you take a knee. The comparison ends there. I would say Killshot pure zerker warior much more high risk and more gimicky. The damage is not the same based on risk either. Warrior is much more risky and more gimicky yet a lot less damage. I also don't think the tell is more obvious than kill shot considering like you said lots of stealth and teleports can negate much of the risk and help mask the tells. Also theifs ability to reset, and get out of jail vs warriors who has a lot less mobility and no stealth. It's a pretty bad comparison. I am not arguing that its good cuz i think its a pretty bad game design.

 

 

GWEN also was way before ranger was ever useful in zergs. I can't agree that anyone seriously ran rangers who was a guild that was considered actually good. Necros were not running transfusion back then, stickly warrior banners was all there was. This was way before mercy rune meta. Necro was a backline class and reaper didn't exist. Yes in terms of skilled game play this was a much better meta. Damage was very high back then to relative yet we didn't have all of these BS mechanics. So I think that proves that this has nothing to do with damage.

 

Everything else I basically agree with except for those caveats.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Got hit with this today, didn't even see them the entire time.

> This game is awesome XD

>

> 

>

>

 

soo you are either a mesmer or you evaded/blocked the mark a few seconds before the mark on a nearby mesmer run out.

taking into consideration you previous post with the backstab i would say you are the mesmer and a glassy one at that. leaves the question if you are glass hybrid or glass power mesmer. hybrid might not be instant killing a deadeye but going against a power mesmer with rifle is just stupid and the numbers only little higher then the backstab means 2nd one was marauder gear / not full malice or you had some protection up, would be around 36-43k else.

as a mesmer you can spawn clones on many targets in the area and then just stand in the hitbox of it, when you hear that little sound only thing you got to do is move one step away from DE location while bursting him so you dont even have to be mirage to evade+ burst.

if you are a power mirage wich i suspect, there is pretty much no reason to die to a deadeye. the moment the deadeye appears you can instant kill him right away and most of his skills are too slow to get away. you can avoid a backstab by simple moving around a bit faster than the deadeye can and using DJ against power mesmer is suicide. that is nearly a hardcounter of power DE - only thing missing is forcing the deadeye to actually try to attack.

ofc in a group fight this can be tricky but then you got your group to help you and an opponent staying 20s in stealth is not much of a help to his team that might have died within that time.

regardless of fun in this encounter seeing those 2 screens with your complains is nearly as ridiculous as if a ranger complained about scourges in 1 vs 1.

[Mil.3562]

> @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps.

 

... and say goodbye to at least 50% of the player base : D

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Mil.3562" said:

> > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> > My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps.

>

> ... and say goodbye to at least 50% of the player base : D

 

And say "welcome back" to the 50% prior to HoT lol.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest. DE is more annoying and gimmicky than it is strong. High burst, but virtually nothing else.

> > The rifle is horribly-designed, but not OP.

> >

> > Again, the problem here is the safety from which this can be achieved. Lots of stealth stacking negates much of the risk for this kind of damage considering it takes more than 20s of waiting while building malice in range to achieve. You can out-play the damage pretty easily because it always has a pretty massive tell (only covered in ZvZ play, but your group should be running near-perma projectile denial anyways) and then just run away, but it makes combat lack interaction and is just anti-fun.

> >

> > As far as combat in previous metas requiring more skill... it generally did. Hammertrain wasn't as facerolly as people make it out to be, and GWEN was only really "ideal" for pug zergs; the top GvG groups all ran a number of thieves and mesmers as critical outplay and periphery resources, some of which also ran a small number of rangers for healing spring and downed state retrieval - leaving only really the engineer out of the ZvZ scene, though grenades at the time was a potent midrange build that some groups did experiment with a lot with mild success given the value of healing turret as well.

> >

> > One-pushes weren't as common, either. Banners, Search and Rescue, and Transfusion were all a pretty big part of the meta and required a lot more timing and group coordination than just "spam AoEs and eventually people will start getting low so we can onepush" like what we're seeing now. Boons were less common and required coordination to rotate and often weren't even permanent, barrier is just an outright better version of healing (goes beyond max hp), and the backline and frontline needed to position themselves well to not die.

> >

> > 7 of 8 being useful despite 4 being dominant is much better than 2 being dominant with another 2 being useful. There's always going to be a class that's more in demand than others and likely one that won't really be in demand.

>

> It's not a good comparison to kill shot warrior. Killshot base warrior the only thing that is similar is that you take a knee. The comparison ends there. I would say Killshot pure zerker warior much more high risk and more gimicky. The damage is not the same based on risk either. Warrior is much more risky and more gimicky yet a lot less damage. I also don't think the tell is more obvious than kill shot considering like you said lots of stealth and teleports can negate much of the risk and help mask the tells. Also theifs ability to reset, and get out of jail vs warriors who has a lot less mobility and no stealth. It's a pretty bad comparison. I am not arguing that its good cuz i think its a pretty bad game design.

>

>

> GWEN also was way before ranger was ever useful in zergs. I can't agree that anyone seriously ran rangers who was a guild that was considered actually good. Necros were not running transfusion back then, stickly warrior banners was all there was. This was way before mercy rune meta. Necro was a backline class and reaper didn't exist. Yes in terms of skilled game play this was a much better meta. Damage was very high back then to relative yet we didn't have all of these BS mechanics. So I think that proves that this has nothing to do with damage.

>

> Everything else I basically agree with except for those caveats.

 

Different gimmicks with different degrees of safety; KS can be casted quicker since it doesn't depend on the malice stacks and warrior has resistance/endure pain/balance stance, but thief can camp stealth to safely mark and then DJ when ready and meld out of a bad situation/reveal. While DJ has higher potential, a 25k Kill Shot is easily achieved. Meta SA rifle DE has extremely poor disengage as it does not run shortbow and commits at least two utilities for its offensive rotation, and often needs to use shadowstep to make DJ land reliably.

 

As for what was meta during the hammertrain days, it was GWEN for most guilds because that was the best comp without nuances. The top GvG and zergbusting guilds diversified more, however. Ranger sucked with longbow but was used as a support offtank with GS due to the evades on AA with Signet of Stone and long stability from old RoA allowing for deep dives while being able to endure damage and provided two CC's and water field + cleanse for the entire frontline which would blast and heal on a shorter cooldown than what eles could provide, which also allowed for more offensive-minded backline ele rotations or support for the backline. A number of necros in organized guilds (not all) also opted for transfuse and Blood Magic because siphon damage ignores damage immunity from Endure/Defy pain which nearly every warrior was dependent on at critical moments. Different guilds played differently, but in organized GvG and zergbusting, there was a ton of diversity and most professions were utilized on some level. GWEN was the main structure, but to say anything else wasn't utilized is simply untrue; non-zerg builds like longbow ranger and FT engi were of course always horrible by their nature, but other professions absolutely had roles in zergs in a number of GvG/Organized ZvZ guilds.

 

Overall, damage was still generally lower, but gameplay was slower and things generally had more outplay potential and coordination and individual skill was rewarded way more than it is now, where wins are accrued almost always by how many of the two dominant professions are being stacke and abilities spammed. People weren't as hard-countered by builds, and the play was much higher-risk as a whole.

 

 

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest.

 

Except a kill shot warrior I would be able to see and get a chance to maybe react to.

 

I got marked while part of a zerg, normally if I get marked I run to the nearest structure because I can't see them, I have no idea where the attack is coming from, and I have no way to see the shot coming until the very last second which I would have to have lightning reflexes (physical not the skill) to even counter, and going by how crap the servers have been lately with the lag that isn't possible. I turn and run back to smc only I get sniped from behind and turns out I had ran right past him unless he shadow stepped to get closer which he probably did since he was between me and my zerg. I also have my music and discord running, I'm not going to hear "the little sound" as the tell. You cannot kill a deadeye when he appears when you're already dead.

 

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> the moment the deadeye appears you can instant kill him right away and most of his skills are too slow to get away.

 

Simply brilliant, kill him instantly as he appears in front of you because why would they be anywhere else, before he gets his one shot off that's actually making him appear in the first place. I've seen some great defending arguments for thieves, don't worry I fully support them getting some more buffs since they lack a great deal of defense and mobility when they put on the daggers or the rifle.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > the moment the deadeye appears you can instant kill him right away and most of his skills are too slow to get away.

>

> Simply brilliant, kill him instantly as he appears in front of you because why would they be anywhere else, before he gets his one shot off that's actually making him appear in the first place. I've seen some great defending arguments for thieves, don't worry I fully support them getting some more buffs since they lack a great deal of defense and mobility when they put on the daggers or the rifle.

 

problem is if he appears with rifle the cast is too slow for fighting a mesmer, no matter what direction you are. because the mesmer has 1200 range instant interrupt. and like everything in this game that is instant it has to be predicted. instant CC on 1200 range is worse than possible OHKO with 1sec cast on 1500 range out of stealth in most situations. because for one you get 1s to react, for the other you cant react only predict.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest.

>

> Except a kill shot warrior I would be able to see and get a chance to maybe react to.

>

> I got marked while part of a zerg, normally if I get marked I run to the nearest structure because I can't see them, I have no idea where the attack is coming from, and I have no way to see the shot coming until the very last second which I would have to have lightning reflexes (physical not the skill) to even counter, and going by how crap the servers have been lately with the lag that isn't possible. I turn and run back to smc only I get sniped from behind and turns out I had ran right past him unless he shadow stepped to get closer which he probably did since he was between me and my zerg. I also have my music and discord running, I'm not going to hear "the little sound" as the tell. You cannot kill a deadeye when he appears when you're already dead.

 

Can you dodge Maul from ranger GS? The timing is exactly the same. I also play without audio but can usually negate DJ. I also think audio tells are dumb, but there is a visual one as well, and if you're not at your zerg and you're marked, either he's out in the open enough to be fairly obvious when channeling DJ, or you're close enough to your zerg to get resurrected and he'll get immediately caught by your periph when inflicting self-reveal like that.

 

Unfortunately, lag problems I can't offer insight into. But to be honest, any profession in the game can 100-0 virtually anything else in around a second or two if built for it, so it's not exactly something totally unique to the DE and lag generally just sucks. Even if you were fighting something else, core guardian with a hammer can wombo-combo for 16-20k within the timing of a Mighty Blow in conjunction with Shield of Wrath and then when you're knocked down follow through with a ZD for another 15k or so.

 

If you have a block, immunity, or evade and a gap close you can pretty easily shut such DE's down if you're quick. Catching them can be a major PITA if they're good (because of surprise surprise: stealth stacking and revealed cleansing via Meld), but negating their attacks isn't that difficult if you don't stick around or use things on too long of a cooldown. Dodging and weapon skill blocks are always going to beat them out on resources if you stay on the move. If you stay to fight, you're in for a tough 1v1 if they're any good.

 

There's a big laser that emerges between you and the DE when you're being attacked by DJ during its charge phase, and it inflicts self-reveal prior to the attack being made, not afterwards. Look for the laser, dodge roll to avoid the damage, and trace it back to the DE. Dodge a second time if he attempts again (unlikely). If he makes a second attempt, he'll either not have stealth which makes things very easy to negate, or he'll need to swap weapons and burn a utility skill and wait to have enough initiative to try again from stealth. By this point, you should be huffing it to your zerg.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warlord.9074]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest. DE is more annoying and gimmicky than it is strong. High burst, but virtually nothing else.

> > > The rifle is horribly-designed, but not OP.

> > >

> > > Again, the problem here is the safety from which this can be achieved. Lots of stealth stacking negates much of the risk for this kind of damage considering it takes more than 20s of waiting while building malice in range to achieve. You can out-play the damage pretty easily because it always has a pretty massive tell (only covered in ZvZ play, but your group should be running near-perma projectile denial anyways) and then just run away, but it makes combat lack interaction and is just anti-fun.

> > >

> > > As far as combat in previous metas requiring more skill... it generally did. Hammertrain wasn't as facerolly as people make it out to be, and GWEN was only really "ideal" for pug zergs; the top GvG groups all ran a number of thieves and mesmers as critical outplay and periphery resources, some of which also ran a small number of rangers for healing spring and downed state retrieval - leaving only really the engineer out of the ZvZ scene, though grenades at the time was a potent midrange build that some groups did experiment with a lot with mild success given the value of healing turret as well.

> > >

> > > One-pushes weren't as common, either. Banners, Search and Rescue, and Transfusion were all a pretty big part of the meta and required a lot more timing and group coordination than just "spam AoEs and eventually people will start getting low so we can onepush" like what we're seeing now. Boons were less common and required coordination to rotate and often weren't even permanent, barrier is just an outright better version of healing (goes beyond max hp), and the backline and frontline needed to position themselves well to not die.

> > >

> > > 7 of 8 being useful despite 4 being dominant is much better than 2 being dominant with another 2 being useful. There's always going to be a class that's more in demand than others and likely one that won't really be in demand.

> >

> > It's not a good comparison to kill shot warrior. Killshot base warrior the only thing that is similar is that you take a knee. The comparison ends there. I would say Killshot pure zerker warior much more high risk and more gimicky. The damage is not the same based on risk either. Warrior is much more risky and more gimicky yet a lot less damage. I also don't think the tell is more obvious than kill shot considering like you said lots of stealth and teleports can negate much of the risk and help mask the tells. Also theifs ability to reset, and get out of jail vs warriors who has a lot less mobility and no stealth. It's a pretty bad comparison. I am not arguing that its good cuz i think its a pretty bad game design.

> >

> >

> > GWEN also was way before ranger was ever useful in zergs. I can't agree that anyone seriously ran rangers who was a guild that was considered actually good. Necros were not running transfusion back then, stickly warrior banners was all there was. This was way before mercy rune meta. Necro was a backline class and reaper didn't exist. Yes in terms of skilled game play this was a much better meta. Damage was very high back then to relative yet we didn't have all of these BS mechanics. So I think that proves that this has nothing to do with damage.

> >

> > Everything else I basically agree with except for those caveats.

>

> Different gimmicks with different degrees of safety; KS can be casted quicker since it doesn't depend on the malice stacks and warrior has resistance/endure pain/balance stance, but thief can camp stealth to safely mark and then DJ when ready and meld out of a bad situation/reveal. While DJ has higher potential, a 25k Kill Shot is easily achieved. Meta SA rifle DE has extremely poor disengage as it does not run shortbow and commits at least two utilities for its offensive rotation, and often needs to use shadowstep to make DJ land reliably.

>

> As for what was meta during the hammertrain days, it was GWEN for most guilds because that was the best comp without nuances. The top GvG and zergbusting guilds diversified more, however. Ranger sucked with longbow but was used as a support offtank with GS due to the evades on AA with Signet of Stone and long stability from old RoA allowing for deep dives while being able to endure damage and provided two CC's and water field + cleanse for the entire frontline which would blast and heal on a shorter cooldown than what eles could provide, which also allowed for more offensive-minded backline ele rotations or support for the backline. A number of necros in organized guilds (not all) also opted for transfuse and Blood Magic because siphon damage ignores damage immunity from Endure/Defy pain which nearly every warrior was dependent on at critical moments. Different guilds played differently, but in organized GvG and zergbusting, there was a ton of diversity and most professions were utilized on some level. GWEN was the main structure, but to say anything else wasn't utilized is simply untrue; non-zerg builds like longbow ranger and FT engi were of course always horrible by their nature, but other professions absolutely had roles in zergs in a number of GvG/Organized ZvZ guilds.

>

> Overall, damage was still generally lower, but gameplay was slower and things generally had more outplay potential and coordination and individual skill was rewarded way more than it is now, where wins are accrued almost always by how many of the two dominant professions are being stacke and abilities spammed. People weren't as hard-countered by builds, and the play was much higher-risk as a whole.

>

>

 

You and I live in different realities and dimensions. It simply isn't true melee ranger was ever used by any good competitive guilds. What you are describing was the "Theory" that a ranger do this or that, and was it worth giving up a slot in a 15-20 man group where GGWN made up 4/5 spots in a party and you would never take a ranger over an ele. So G/G/W/N/E. Not only was there simply not room but if you had room why would you take a ranger over a ELE or a Necro or Guard or anything else. There was no optimal justification.

 

Thats only half of the reason your theory was debunked, the 2nd reason was there was absolutely nothing a ranger did better than any other class in that meta. And since the PET is always dead things like signet of stone would not work. Ranger at that time besides a healing spring offered absolutely nothing good to the comp.

 

So I think we have 2 very different realities here. One where theorys work and another where everything was tried and true and tested and debunked by better players who were actually playing the game at this level back then. Not recalling what they heard or thought was good back then but was never at that level then.

 

Also the 25k Killshot is false, you cannot even achieve that in th special forces training golem in LA with full buffs and debuffs. So you are either talking about 1 shoting up levels in 1v1 with full buffs and debuffs that a warrior can't achieve alone, which Still 25k is not reasonably possible. Or you are using justification for what the Deadeye can do based on preferoicty nerf killshot videos you found on youtube that are 3 years old and were even back then rare cases. Either way its made up.

[XenesisII.1540]

I'm on the phone right now ordering bionic implants for my eyes and fingers so I'll be able to dodge one shot skills all day, there's no reason to die to a deadeye. By the same token, thieves in general seem to lose all their defense including their dodges and evades that everyone else is expected to predict and use against them while they're in stealth, anet would you please buff their defenses, endure pain would be great.

[Aeolus.3615]

Warlord.9074 > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest.

>

> Except a kill shot warrior I would be able to see and get a chance to maybe react to.

>

> I got marked while part of a zerg, normally if I get marked I run to the nearest structure because I can't see them, I have no idea where the attack is coming from, and I have no way to see the shot coming until the very last second which I would have to have lightning reflexes (physical not the skill) to even counter, and going by how crap the servers have been lately with the lag that isn't possible. I turn and run back to smc only I get sniped from behind and turns out I had ran right past him unless he shadow stepped to get closer which he probably did since he was between me and my zerg. I also have my music and discord running, I'm not going to hear "the little sound" as the tell. You cannot kill a deadeye when he appears when you're already dead.

>

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > the moment the deadeye appears you can instant kill him right away and most of his skills are too slow to get away.

>

> Simply brilliant, kill him instantly as he appears in front of you because why would they be anywhere else, before he gets his one shot off that's actually making him appear in the first place. I've seen some great defending arguments for thieves, don't worry I fully support them getting some more buffs since they lack a great deal of defense and mobility when they put on the daggers or the rifle.

 

Just and apart comment about KS and gunflame warrior VS thief

Dont forget that Kill shot can be tuned to be unblockable wich will bypass guardians reflects ad absorb domes with quite some long unblockable uptime.

Thief need the venon share to bypass those defenses with range weapons.

 

Imo theres more counter play to thief than warrior..

[Warlord.9074]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> Warlord.9074 > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest.

> >

> > Except a kill shot warrior I would be able to see and get a chance to maybe react to.

> >

> > I got marked while part of a zerg, normally if I get marked I run to the nearest structure because I can't see them, I have no idea where the attack is coming from, and I have no way to see the shot coming until the very last second which I would have to have lightning reflexes (physical not the skill) to even counter, and going by how crap the servers have been lately with the lag that isn't possible. I turn and run back to smc only I get sniped from behind and turns out I had ran right past him unless he shadow stepped to get closer which he probably did since he was between me and my zerg. I also have my music and discord running, I'm not going to hear "the little sound" as the tell. You cannot kill a deadeye when he appears when you're already dead.

> >

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > the moment the deadeye appears you can instant kill him right away and most of his skills are too slow to get away.

> >

> > Simply brilliant, kill him instantly as he appears in front of you because why would they be anywhere else, before he gets his one shot off that's actually making him appear in the first place. I've seen some great defending arguments for thieves, don't worry I fully support them getting some more buffs since they lack a great deal of defense and mobility when they put on the daggers or the rifle.

>

> Just and apart comment about KS and gunflame warrior VS thief

> Dont forget that Kill shot can be tuned to be unblockable wich will bypass guardians reflects ad absorb domes with quite some long unblockable uptime.

> Thief need the venon share to bypass those defenses with range weapons.

>

> Imo theres more counter play to thief than warrior..

 

Except you are leaving out the key point that countering a warrior simply means dodging a burst skill and if u cannot dodge killshot than there are larger issues here at play. All of warriors sustain, condition cleansing and damage is all dependent on landing the burst skill through their traits. As a warrior you are also giving up utility to run that signet. you are either giving up endure pain, which doesn't block condis, berserkers stance which has been nerfed hard, or a stun break or balanced stance which is nerfed hard. I think if you cannot counter or beat a base rifle warrior there are huge issues with your game play, so u are definitely ot countering a deadeye.

The fact that this is even an argument that is being presented as legit is sad.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> I'm on the phone right now ordering bionic implants for my eyes and fingers so I'll be able to dodge one shot skills all day, there's no reason to die to a deadeye. By the same token, thieves in general seem to lose all their defense including their dodges and evades that everyone else is expected to predict and use against them while they're in stealth, anet would you please buff their defenses, endure pain would be great.

 

why would i random dodge in stealth ? and i dont see how a oneshot deadeye has access to more evades or dodges then a mirage , a weaver or a core warrior.

i might be random dodging your CC, you might be random dodging my possible OHKO what makes it so special about thieves doing it?

 

i play DE now for quite a time all day long yes many people cannot dodge DJ, you are not alone. the problem is there are enough people who can consistently and if such a person is on a class with the potential damage to instant kill a deadeye like a power mesmer, then the DE is either forced to perform a tricky shot that might work with suprise or has to land a backstab onehit wich again some people can consistently avoid. i dont care if an average joe DE is too strong against average mesmer. a good mesmer is the greatest threat to a oneshot DE, the deadeye need alot of luck or has to win the mindgame to land his hit - because one fail hit and there is a dead DE.

when the deadeye comes out of stealth he cant instantly reenter stealth as shadow meld has a cast time, so got to wait at least 3s to enter stealth without being interrupted. then we need blinding powder ready, there is no other option to instantly enter stealth without this utility as a deadeye an core / DD thief with SA has one more with steal but mark has a cast time.. so running that i use blinding powder, assassins signet for onehits and shadowstep cause too good.

so when i fight a good mesmer i try to attack first as usual, if he avoids the hit, i can use 2x dodge roll and withdrawl heal to get most of that 3s window covered to then use blinding powder. whew i escaped if i want to try again with such escape potential wait 40 seconds in perma stealth or i am at a position where i can double LoS break so i got one more try with 50s cd for instance mesmer is in sn next to lord , i try to snipe and then teleport through the roof. on open field if i port away to stealth, the mesmer can follow with port and range instant CC to interrupt stealth attempt.

those 40s 50s cd are for TRIES to land a oneshot that the mesmer will most probably avoid again, meanwhile i need to keep up stealth because if i get spotted by a mesmer he can just kill me outright without preperation time.

DJ does not have to be adjusted so that YOU can dodge it , some people cant dodge churnin earth while the skill is too slow to use against half decent opponents. in a match good power mesmer vs good onehit deadeye, the mesmer has the advantage. but both got the potential to kill. on lower skill level the thief will have the advantage as stealth becomes stronger the worse the opponent(s). against good players stealth will only help you get in 1 burst 'out of no where' wich in case of rifle wont happen with a DJ as that requires a mark.

 

dont get me wrong i dont have an issue with mesmers, i can avoid fighting them if i want to by just not showing myself. the ones that are not good are easy kills like if they played any other class. but i dont like a mesmer complaining about DJ being too strong as they got all the tools to avoid it and punish an attempt. not everyone is capable to pull it off but the potential is there. i dont want to be nerfed cause someone else is not using his class to full potential. DE got a low skill floor but there is also not much you can improve with skill, therefor on low skill battles he is OP and the better the players involved in the fight, the weaker the DE.

 

now on what level of play should this game be balanced? if you balance it on higher level of play you got people complaining about classes with low skill floor, balance it on casual play and you will see single good players walking around as immortal machines of destruction wich will also cause lots of frustration for those casuals it is balanced for.

[apharma.3741]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Mil.3562" said:

> > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> > > My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps.

> >

> > ... and say goodbye to at least 50% of the player base : D

>

> And say "welcome back" to the 50% prior to HoT lol.

 

Neither of these is a good solution as you’re trading 1 population for a possibility of an older population to come back which they often do only for a short period.

 

The answer is for ANet to start looking at how skills were before Heart of Thorns and come up with a framework of cool down vs effect while also weighing up the risk and reward and adjust the elite specialisations as needed.

 

A good example of this is if you go to the wiki page for any weapon it will list all the skills along with their cast time and cool down, you can see a clear difference most of the time between a core weapon or skill and a HoT weapon skill, there’s also a difference between PoF and core/HoT skills where PoF had a better balance between weapon skills and their cool downs as well as the effects of those skills. Unfortunately where PoF fell down was in the sheer number of effects and skills added onto elite spec mechanics in certain areas like scourge, FB, full counter, holo forge and elusive mind.

 

At the end of the day ANet need to make balance a much higher priority, it should be second only to bringing out content. Cool downs need to be longer so an impactful skill feels impactful and you’re rewarded for landing it, so defences are managed properly and you feel good for using and managing them properly instead of having one available every 10s. They also really need to do something about Firebrand on a conceptual level, 3 tomes, 2 of which are support on top of its already excellent support set makes all other forms of support redundant almost.

 

They have started making vague attempts on this with the skill split but there’s a long way to go and quarterly balance patches aren’t the answer, neither is having a skill split patch halfway between those quarters as you end up with nearly 2 different balance states doubling the work load later.

 

Edit: I know someone, probably Deciever will point this out, many cool downs on core skills have likewise been decreased since HoT and PoF and I do feel that some of these were right (the first set of guardian shield reductions, not the 2nd set) some of them however only contributed to this power creep we have. This only stands as a testament to how bonkers HoT was when even now you can see differences in cool down on core skills vs expansion skills. Some of this should obviously be changed back.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > Not much different than Kill Shot war to be honest. DE is more annoying and gimmicky than it is strong. High burst, but virtually nothing else.

> > > > The rifle is horribly-designed, but not OP.

> > > >

> > > > Again, the problem here is the safety from which this can be achieved. Lots of stealth stacking negates much of the risk for this kind of damage considering it takes more than 20s of waiting while building malice in range to achieve. You can out-play the damage pretty easily because it always has a pretty massive tell (only covered in ZvZ play, but your group should be running near-perma projectile denial anyways) and then just run away, but it makes combat lack interaction and is just anti-fun.

> > > >

> > > > As far as combat in previous metas requiring more skill... it generally did. Hammertrain wasn't as facerolly as people make it out to be, and GWEN was only really "ideal" for pug zergs; the top GvG groups all ran a number of thieves and mesmers as critical outplay and periphery resources, some of which also ran a small number of rangers for healing spring and downed state retrieval - leaving only really the engineer out of the ZvZ scene, though grenades at the time was a potent midrange build that some groups did experiment with a lot with mild success given the value of healing turret as well.

> > > >

> > > > One-pushes weren't as common, either. Banners, Search and Rescue, and Transfusion were all a pretty big part of the meta and required a lot more timing and group coordination than just "spam AoEs and eventually people will start getting low so we can onepush" like what we're seeing now. Boons were less common and required coordination to rotate and often weren't even permanent, barrier is just an outright better version of healing (goes beyond max hp), and the backline and frontline needed to position themselves well to not die.

> > > >

> > > > 7 of 8 being useful despite 4 being dominant is much better than 2 being dominant with another 2 being useful. There's always going to be a class that's more in demand than others and likely one that won't really be in demand.

> > >

> > > It's not a good comparison to kill shot warrior. Killshot base warrior the only thing that is similar is that you take a knee. The comparison ends there. I would say Killshot pure zerker warior much more high risk and more gimicky. The damage is not the same based on risk either. Warrior is much more risky and more gimicky yet a lot less damage. I also don't think the tell is more obvious than kill shot considering like you said lots of stealth and teleports can negate much of the risk and help mask the tells. Also theifs ability to reset, and get out of jail vs warriors who has a lot less mobility and no stealth. It's a pretty bad comparison. I am not arguing that its good cuz i think its a pretty bad game design.

> > >

> > >

> > > GWEN also was way before ranger was ever useful in zergs. I can't agree that anyone seriously ran rangers who was a guild that was considered actually good. Necros were not running transfusion back then, stickly warrior banners was all there was. This was way before mercy rune meta. Necro was a backline class and reaper didn't exist. Yes in terms of skilled game play this was a much better meta. Damage was very high back then to relative yet we didn't have all of these BS mechanics. So I think that proves that this has nothing to do with damage.

> > >

> > > Everything else I basically agree with except for those caveats.

> >

> > Different gimmicks with different degrees of safety; KS can be casted quicker since it doesn't depend on the malice stacks and warrior has resistance/endure pain/balance stance, but thief can camp stealth to safely mark and then DJ when ready and meld out of a bad situation/reveal. While DJ has higher potential, a 25k Kill Shot is easily achieved. Meta SA rifle DE has extremely poor disengage as it does not run shortbow and commits at least two utilities for its offensive rotation, and often needs to use shadowstep to make DJ land reliably.

> >

> > As for what was meta during the hammertrain days, it was GWEN for most guilds because that was the best comp without nuances. The top GvG and zergbusting guilds diversified more, however. Ranger sucked with longbow but was used as a support offtank with GS due to the evades on AA with Signet of Stone and long stability from old RoA allowing for deep dives while being able to endure damage and provided two CC's and water field + cleanse for the entire frontline which would blast and heal on a shorter cooldown than what eles could provide, which also allowed for more offensive-minded backline ele rotations or support for the backline. A number of necros in organized guilds (not all) also opted for transfuse and Blood Magic because siphon damage ignores damage immunity from Endure/Defy pain which nearly every warrior was dependent on at critical moments. Different guilds played differently, but in organized GvG and zergbusting, there was a ton of diversity and most professions were utilized on some level. GWEN was the main structure, but to say anything else wasn't utilized is simply untrue; non-zerg builds like longbow ranger and FT engi were of course always horrible by their nature, but other professions absolutely had roles in zergs in a number of GvG/Organized ZvZ guilds.

> >

> > Overall, damage was still generally lower, but gameplay was slower and things generally had more outplay potential and coordination and individual skill was rewarded way more than it is now, where wins are accrued almost always by how many of the two dominant professions are being stacke and abilities spammed. People weren't as hard-countered by builds, and the play was much higher-risk as a whole.

> >

> >

>

> You and I live in different realities and dimensions. It simply isn't true melee ranger was ever used by any good competitive guilds. What you are describing was the "Theory" that a ranger do this or that, and was it worth giving up a slot in a 15-20 man group where GGWN made up 4/5 spots in a party and you would never take a ranger over an ele. So G/G/W/N/E. Not only was there simply not room but if you had room why would you take a ranger over a ELE or a Necro or Guard or anything else. There was no optimal justification.

>

> Thats only half of the reason your theory was debunked, the 2nd reason was there was absolutely nothing a ranger did better than any other class in that meta. And since the PET is always dead things like signet of stone would not work. Ranger at that time besides a healing spring offered absolutely nothing good to the comp.

>

> So I think we have 2 very different realities here. One where theorys work and another where everything was tried and true and tested and debunked by better players who were actually playing the game at this level back then. Not recalling what they heard or thought was good back then but was never at that level then.

>

> Also the 25k Killshot is false, you cannot even achieve that in th special forces training golem in LA with full buffs and debuffs. So you are either talking about 1 shoting up levels in 1v1 with full buffs and debuffs that a warrior can't achieve alone, which Still 25k is not reasonably possible. Or you are using justification for what the Deadeye can do based on preferoicty nerf killshot videos you found on youtube that are 3 years old and were even back then rare cases. Either way its made up.

 

Zergs didn't party their frontline and backlines. I say these things because I fought in a serious GvG guild and these were strategies we broke out to bust zergs.

Way back when, Healing Spring was the lowest cooldown water field in the game and a full tank ranger with Brutish Seals would get the benefits of signets self-applied without need for the pet; SotW at the time was a huge boost in damage and combined with RoA was the longest-lasting self-sustained stability possible. GS had a 1/3 evasion uptime on AA which back then was unreal in terms of negation.

When fighting outnumbered the peel and heal on the ranger could be huge for the frontline because of these lower cooldowns and high self-sufficiency. SnR also didn't matter if the pet was dead; it still performed the res and could effectively be a 45 second-or-less banner for priority targets like the commander. The teleport part is new but things die too quickly and unlike the old SnR, it can't hard-res double-downs. That's why it's bad currently.

 

The absolute dominant and top-tier guilds did not run 80% GGWN. EP ran nearly 20% thieves alone and were the #1 guild in the world and destroyed Agg in the GvG championship during hammertrain because while everyone was so insistent on stacking more of the same specs, a few picks to counter the common strategy of mega-deeps backline flipped things on their head. Periphery squads became much more present after their crushing win when people started realizing this extra value.

 

You wouldn't fill a party or fill multiple slots with rangers. You'd pick one, maybe two, for the entire frontline depending on how big a group you had. Doesn't change the fact they were used critically in some big GvG groups. Longbow backline has always been garbage for ZvZ play but people when utilizing ranger didn't use it.

 

25k killshot is absolutely not a false claim lmao. My guildmember literally did it last week running a build with 3k armor as a rifle war main. Maybe re-examine traits, buffs, and conditions of play if you think it's not possible, because it absolutely is.

 

Most of what you've said about warrior above is also dated and untrue. There are many that don't even use CI anymore since it got nerfed.

 

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> I'm on the phone right now ordering bionic implants for my eyes and fingers so I'll be able to dodge one shot skills all day, there's no reason to die to a deadeye. By the same token, thieves in general seem to lose all their defense including their dodges and evades that everyone else is expected to predict and use against them while they're in stealth, anet would you please buff their defenses, endure pain would be great.

 

Dodging DJ is literally dodging Maul from a ranger, just at range. It has the same obvious tells and the same cast time before dealing damage. If you want to be laughed at, go complain about MoC/AoO Maul being OP on the ranger/PvP forums for being too hard to dodge.

 

If you can't dodge or negate a 3/4s cast + the projectile travel speed you should probably consider not participating in PvP in the game in general because that is way slower than any combo guardian/ele/thief/ranger/holosmith/mesmer can pull off with a generally much more obvious tell.

 

The real killer is Spotter's Shot and baiting cooldowns to make DJ hit reliably after an extended encounter. Which is why I said to just keep moving. The initial DJ is the easy one to negate.

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Mil.3562" said:

> > > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> > > > My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps.

> > >

> > > ... and say goodbye to at least 50% of the player base : D

> >

> > And say "welcome back" to the 50% prior to HoT lol.

>

> Neither of these is a good solution as you’re trading 1 population for a possibility of an older population to come back which they often do only for a short period.

>

> The answer is for ANet to start looking at how skills were before Heart of Thorns and come up with a framework of cool down vs effect while also weighing up the risk and reward and adjust the elite specialisations as needed.

>

> A good example of this is if you go to the wiki page for any weapon it will list all the skills along with their cast time and cool down, you can see a clear difference most of the time between a core weapon or skill and a HoT weapon skill, there’s also a difference between PoF and core/HoT skills where PoF had a better balance between weapon skills and their cool downs as well as the effects of those skills. Unfortunately where PoF fell down was in the sheer number of effects and skills added onto elite spec mechanics in certain areas like scourge, FB, full counter, holo forge and elusive mind.

>

> At the end of the day ANet need to make balance a much higher priority, it should be second only to bringing out content. Cool downs need to be longer so an impactful skill feels impactful and you’re rewarded for landing it, so defences are managed properly and you feel good for using and managing them properly instead of having one available every 10s. They also really need to do something about Firebrand on a conceptual level, 3 tomes, 2 of which are support on top of its already excellent support set makes all other forms of support redundant almost.

>

> They have started making vague attempts on this with the skill split but there’s a long way to go and quarterly balance patches aren’t the answer, neither is having a skill split patch halfway between those quarters as you end up with nearly 2 different balance states doubling the work load later.

>

> Edit: I know someone, probably Deciever will point this out, many cool downs on core skills have likewise been decreased since HoT and PoF and I do feel that some of these were right (the first set of guardian shield reductions, not the 2nd set) some of them however only contributed to this power creep we have. This only stands as a testament to how bonkers HoT was when even now you can see differences in cool down on core skills vs expansion skills. Some of this should obviously be changed back.

 

Yeah, though to be honest my remark wasn't that serious; more a reference to the fact that we're bleeding players fast on our current trend. Maybe the few guilds I'm in are only a fringe case (although not what I hear from other people), but a lot of people would come back to the game if it were in a better spot and not a spamfest.

[XenesisII.1540]

Comparing dodging a melee skill in fight that already started with a range skill from stealth.

 

I mean....

I don't even...

It's just...

Grasping straws...

Deflection...

It's ok...

Get it...

Deadeye...

Needs...

Buffs...

I'm obviously...

Not good...

Enough to...

Play PvP...

If I die...

To stealth attack...

Even though...

Many days...

Play without dying...

GG...

P.S...

Trying to...

Make post...

As long as...

Wordy defense...

Posts about...

Stealth One shot...

He says...

You should...

Quit PVP...

 

P.P.S Maul is a melee attack that has an obvious tell when it's coming, even if they stealth before that is a tell. You do not get that opportunity to react appropriately with Deadeyes as they can open a fight with stealth from any spot around you and the only tell you have that a deadeye is on you at that point is the mark, you either flee or sit around like a dummy waiting for when they actually shoot. If you still don't get that stealth is such a huge advantage I don't know what else to tell you, you can continue to throw out other hard hitting skills, they're all easy to counter when you can see where and when they are coming from, I never had a problem with kill shot (even in it's one shot form giant obviously tell when it's happening) or maul or I probably would have posted about it.

 

 

[Oriens.5630]

> > @"Shahared.5284" said:

> > I don't think this is the biggest problem with pvp in gw2. I think the biggest problem is the distinct lack of a split in skills between pvp and pve. You're talking about creep that is occurring, but not addressing the giant elephant of a dilemma that Anet faces in balancing classes in the game: **pvp vs pve**.

 

I have played mmorpg's since about 2005. I have never played one that had balanced PvP of any kind.

 

Over time this has lead me to the same conclusion: PvE and PvP skills need to be completely separated in a game. Keep the skills fun, interesting, original -- whatever, but complete separation I think is the only way to successfully keep track of balance issues.

 

I do not envy the Anet developers who work to balance either PvE or PvP, it's got to be a complete headache to keep up with.

 

My radical suggestion would be for the next xpac to wipe the **balance** slate clean and create this split.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> P.P.S Maul is a melee attack that has an obvious tell when it's coming, even if they stealth before that is a tell. You do not get that opportunity to react appropriately with Deadeyes as they can open a fight with stealth from any spot around you and the only tell you have that a deadeye is on you at that point is the mark, you either flee or sit around like a dummy waiting for when they actually shoot. If you still don't get that stealth is such a huge advantage I don't know what else to tell you, you can continue to throw out other hard hitting skills, they're all easy to counter when you can see where and when they are coming from, I never had a problem with kill shot (even in it's one shot form giant obviously tell when it's happening) or maul or I probably would have posted about it.

 

i still wonder why i see so few DE running around compared to core thief or DD and only a small portion of those build for oneshots or are able to pull it off against a dummy. must be because our honerable thief community wouldnt dare to touch chesse builds and deadeye is way too strong, cant make videos showing superior skill with it!

or we deadeyes just dont happen to see eachother as we allways are in permastealth, i start stacking stealth while waiting for queue pop in LA!

 

tho on a more serious note, if mark was instant like steal, then you would probably see more deadeyes and less stealthed ones. because the instant nature of steal combined with all the traits you can stack on it make alot of the power thief has, thief is basically balanced around that mechanic. you can have 4 traits in trickery at the same time being affected by it , 2 in DA and one in SA , 1 in DD and 3 in DE . so 7 effects on a core/dd build and up to 9 effect on mark as DE that happen instant. now if you interrupt such an overstacked skill its obviously GG especially with traits like power block. the onehit DE build does not utilize any of those ( well the stealth on mark is in it cause 50% faster in stealth) altho they would be very strong when they land because it is too easy to interrupt midfight, while not in stealth. not using all of this needs to be compensated by very safe play and alot of stealth and waiting for an oppertune moment or the deadeye is indeed dead. there is a reason why alot about fighting a thief is baiting and avoiding their steal.

while talking about mark, would be nice if not just the deadeye but the target also at a 'marked' effect in his buffbar for the allies of the target and the deadeye to see it and utilize it, without requireing further communication about it. maybe with a stackcount to see if multiple deadeyes marked the same opponent.

 

i could list you once more all the tells of DJ but you know them anyway just refuse to or unable to react to them, wich doesnt change the fact that at least here in EU most of the better roamers usually avoid a DJ if you only shoot a DJ at them, you really need to bait some defensive CDs or a movement skill to shoot em in it. for all those better roamers another thief build would be more efficient, but i like the challange of making them take a DJ hit. for alot of posts now you just exaggerate instead of making reasonable suggestions what to change about DE. just take away stealth/ damage is not reasonable as it would leave deadeye in an uncompeteable spot, deadeye is forced to a certain playstyle by its weaknesses and the main issue with deadeye is annoyance, if deadeye was actually able to compete while more actively engaging in combat then there would be less reason to play so defensive, tho very few will still do - i also played with SA and impact strike before PoF wich was IMO alot weaker in a duel against a good opponent but strong for fighting groups of weaker players

 

 

 

 

[XenesisII.1540]

You still think that everyone should be able to dodge all thief attacks including those in stealth with tells that amount to 1/4s of reaction, but somehow that thinking isn't applied the other way around to the thief who can also dodge all the other class attacks. When you decide to treat both sides of that argument fairly maybe there can be some discussion, in the meantime your essay's about how much thieves give up (apparently other zerk specs don't give up as much), to portray how weak they are to justify that high damage, is quickly coming and going out meh ears. Not like anet is going to change anything so any discussion on it at all is pointless and really just material to make jokes of.

[MUDse.7623]

no i dont expect you to be able to dodge everything everytime, i just want you to understand that thief is not the only class that will kill you if you fail to react to one tell and that there are even some that can start a near instant death combo from 1200 range without any tell. so it is not really about balance but about fun.

i am just curious how you picture a deadeye that is balanced in your eyes.

but i think you wont give me that laugh.