Legendary weapons lore

[GrubySzymek.1362]

[1] We can argue about WiK whole day. My point is, we never needed or ever heard about the Blade before One Path Ends. And we wouldn't have heard about it even now if not for PoF delay.

 

[2] So what is time treshold for an item to become an artifact? We witness within the game how Caladbolg becomes one of artifacts, it offers huge power and is relevant for critical moments in the story.

 

[3] Claw of Khan Ur is not unique in terms of weapon type. Centurion's claw shares weapon type with the Claw but in no way it's close in appearance.

 

[4] Charr still respect their traditions and it was never established they turned away from Khan Ur tradition. It's not like every week someone tries to become one. But it doesn't mean they don't care if anyone tries to.

 

[5] I can see why flame legion, especially during shaman reign, would cause resistance to appear when trying to claim the title of Khan Ur.

 

[6] Charr are first and foremost military driven race and culture. They respect chain of command and Khan Ur is their highest title.

 

[7] Offering a lore based artifact without giving any explanation how we aquire it or even creating lore inconsistency that we have the Claw while in lore it still hangs in Smodur's office. This is very opposite of beind respectful towards their own universe. This is ignoring lore just to sell a shiny and pretend it's lore heavy. Yeah right, because buying 20k mithril and wood and spending 20 minutes at crafting bench is such a quest.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

[1] we did need infused armor to even think of realistically combating them.

 

[2] not artifact - legend - caladbolg is oftenly refered as artifact and at no point I have argued against calling it as such - what I said is that it is simply to "young" artifact to have "legend" grown around it.

 

[3] sorry but you must be blind to call centurions claw "no way close in appearance" or to busy complaining about lore implications to notice a whole crapload of people compleining about claw of khan-ur being effectively reskinned centurions claw. some even said it's EXACLY same thing.

 

[4] and last time someone tried he struggled to get them convinced and actually needed to resort to usage of another powerfull artifact to proove his "worthiness".... - point in case: just owning "the" claw is far from sufficient to convince anyone of them.

 

[5] which further supports the point that just owning an item appearing to be a claw of khan-ur is far from sufficient to mess with charrs established chain of command....

 

[6] and also supports rank ascention by killing your superior officer.... also just owning the claw does not make you khan-ur....

 

[7] and here you again are ignoring every single bit of legendary items established lore.

 

and also ignoring factuall process because I'd like you to get gift of mystic tribute by buying mithril and spending 20m at a bench... or gift of mastery or gift of maguuma... not to mention mystic forge being involved...

[BoundlessCreation.8906]

This whole debacle boils down to Kheldorn's apparently fatal inability to differentiate between gameplay and lore. Concepts that are importantly tied to each other but not so intrinsically.

 

There are games that entirely revolve around this break, Overwatch and Smas Bros to name some. At what point in the LoZ timeline does Link, Zelda and Ganon Duke it out with Bayonetta, ROB and Mewtwo? They don't, because it is gameplay, not lore.

 

It is the same concept here. The Claw the legendary is not the legendary Claw. Comprende?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> you see, for mirror of Lyssa we know it's replica, it's also just a skin

>

> for the Claw, it's legendary weapon and it's named Clar of the Khan Ur, we're not talking about replicas here

 

[Except for the original sitting in front of Smodur's desk, you mean...](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Claw_of_the_Khan-Ur_trophy.jpg)

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Shining Blade is different, first of all, this weapon has been created and established within single LW episode that didn't even were supposed to exist, until they delayed PoF release (devs admitted it during one of AMAs). Also, we know how Commader got the blade - we were fighting Lazarus and picked up the Blade, we were betrusted by Shining Blade etc. We know HOW it happened, so the fact we made it as legendary is okay, even though legendary creation is lame in this game. Also, the Blade is hardly as important as the Claw. The Blade was just a tool.

 

The Shining Blade is more than just a tool. It is a symbol for the Shining Blade representing their strife against oppressors and their origins. It is also the root for their Oath of Confidence.

 

Furthermore, that's not how the Commander got the sword - there's no reason Livia would leave a tool that is required to ensure new Shining Blade members cannot tell their secrets to enemies went with the Commander. Not to mention that we still had to craft a replica.

 

Even if the weapon was new to lore, it was still one with a history within the universe once introduced.

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> For Caladbolg, it's not legendary, but at least we completed a quest to recover it and Commander got the weapon and the title officialy within lore.

 

In lore, it is 100% legendary. Even if it's not a legendary weapon by mechanics. So it's no different than the Claw or Shining Blade.

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> For the Claw we have nothing like this. Just go and craft your legendary weapon. I don't complain we are allowed to aquire it. I complain the aquisition method is disrespectful. This is not just another legendary weapon (in terms of mechanics), this is legendary weapon within lore, it deserves some dignity, context and at least something pretending to be a quest to get it.

 

I would love for us to get a collection for every legendary weapon that is on par to the Caladbolg and Chuka and Champawat stuff. I remain hopeful that one day ArenaNet will go back and add such, even if it's as shitty as the non-Chuka and Champawat collections.

 

However, your complaint fits the Shining Blade perfectly. We acquire it through a non-quest crafting system. It is not just a legendary weapon of mechanics but within lore.

 

Hell, your complaint also fits a bunch of other things such as:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adam (Eve's skull from GW1)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Windstorm (shares Stormcaller's appearance)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodseeker (a shard of a Bloodstone)

 

And quite a few others from [here](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Loot_standalone_weapons). A lot of these are tied to lore, but they're just random drops.

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Most legendaries have irrelevant backstory, if any.

 

And that's a problem they were fixing by making the Claw a legendary weapon.

 

 

[Westenev.5289]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > For Caladbolg, it's not legendary, but at least we completed a quest to recover it and Commander got the weapon and the title officialy within lore.

>

> In lore, it is 100% legendary. Even if it's not a legendary weapon by mechanics. So it's no different than the Claw or Shining Blade.

 

I wonder about that. Every other legendary weapon we have received has passed through Zommoros's hands, so it might be possible the Commander simply doesn't know how to (or can't) tune Caladbolg efficiently. I mean, the weapon isn't set to one permanent stat like a normal ascended weapon - it can be forcibly reset through unbound magic.

 

This might be speculation, but I think Caladbolg was always set to Riannoc’s preferences until it was reformed, and the way to tune Caladbolg was lost with Riannoc. This is why Caladbolg acted like a Guardian Greatsword even in the hands of the Necromancer Traehearne, but has since reset to aid the Commander’s profession after being imbued with enough unbound magic.

[Ardid.7203]

I have never seen the Legendaries as canon. It wouldn't make sense for most of them. They aren "lore breaking" ONLY if you see them as part of the immersive world of Tyria. I just can't see them as such: they are just toys for players, not true elements of the world. For me at least, Legendaries are in the same exact category as the Catmander badge.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > For Caladbolg, it's not legendary, but at least we completed a quest to recover it and Commander got the weapon and the title officialy within lore.

> >

> > In lore, it is 100% legendary. Even if it's not a legendary weapon by mechanics. So it's no different than the Claw or Shining Blade.

>

> I wonder about that. Every other legendary weapon we have received has passed through Zommoros's hands, so it might be possible the Commander simply doesn't know how to (or can't) tune Caladbolg efficiently. I mean, the weapon isn't set to one permanent stat like a normal ascended weapon - it can be forcibly reset through unbound magic.

>

> This might be speculation, but I think Caladbolg was always set to Riannoc’s preferences until it was reformed, and the way to tune Caladbolg was lost with Riannoc. This is why Caladbolg acted like a Guardian Greatsword even in the hands of the Necromancer Traehearne, but has since reset to aid the Commander’s profession after being imbued with enough unbound magic.

 

Caladbolg had a mixture of guardian, mesmer, and elementalist skills. Riannoc wasn't a guardian, but a warrior. And when we fought Trahearne, he had Reaper skills mixed in with the core Caladbolg skills that we got when wielding it in the sylvari PS - during the PS, he just got those core Caladbolg skills (Riannoc also got a lot of fire/guardian skills instead of the original skills, and the vision of ourself just got improved core Caladbolg skills).

 

The mechanical state of legendary weapons has no hold on lore, and a weapon being handled by Zomorros doesn't make it uniquely special (we got tons of Exotics that can only be made via Mystic Forge; like the Reaper of Souls). Nor should there be any requirement for a legendary weapon to be handled by Zomorros - that's just a mechanical side of things.

 

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> I have never seen the Legendaries as canon. It wouldn't make sense for most of them. They aren "lore breaking" ONLY if you see them as part of the immersive world of Tyria. I just can't see them as such: they are just toys for players, not true elements of the world. For me at least, Legendaries are in the same exact category as the Catmander badge.

 

Sure, except a quarter of them have lore.

 

* Eternity (and thus Sunrise and Twilight) is a weapon once held by the High Wizard of Orr.

* Quip is at one point wielded by Scarlet while in Queen's Pavilion, likely scavenged from DR.

* Chuka and Champawat is a weapon we ourselves made, imbued with the souls of two powerful tigers (perhaps the Spirit of the Wild Tiger as well? Haven't finished the collection).

 

And obviously we know the lore of Claw of the Khan-Ur and The Shining Blade. But then there's the other collections. While somewhat pathetic, they do give hints to the weapons' lore:

 

* Frostfang is named after Jormag's greatest champion, slain by Asgeir.

* Nevermore is a weapon that has been blessed by the Spirit of the Wild Raven.

* H.O.P.E. is a weapon created using asuran understanding of hylek alchemy.

* Astralaria channels the power of the cosmos, in [a very literal sense](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cosmic_Power) it is imbued with magic from the Mists, the world, and the Elder Dragons. It's even [part of Elonian history](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Understanding_Astralaria).

 

The rest, sadly, just give representations and thematic connections. Some more logical than others.

[Ardid.7203]

I see the "lore" put in the Legendaries more as a nice reference or homage than a direct relation with something currently happening on the world. Like buying a plastic sword called "Excalibur" in a Toys Are Us, or like naming a gun after Longinos spear. The exceptions could be Nevermore, Astralaria and Chuka, IMO, because them have an actual, direct relation with the world.

Anyway, that only my point of view, the one that bothers me the less.

[Jables.4659]

I know this is an oldish thread, but that comment about The Shining Blade made by Kettlecorn bugged me. We didn't need The Shining Blade, a weapon forged by the powerful race of spellcasters known as the Seers in Guild Wars 1 because we literally had an actual Seer help us to infuse our armor in order to survive fighting them. The lore presented to us now tells us that the weapon existed back then, and the Shining Blade probably had it and used it to fight the Mursaat. Still, its just one weapon and judging by how drawn out the battle with Lazarus was you wouldn't expect a single soldier with that sword to destroy the entirety of the Mursaat in the same manner that the player character did through fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophecies. With Lazarus, a rather exceptional Mursaat withdrawing into the mists (or whatever it was he did to escape, hide, and survive) there was no longer a chosen one to fulfill an ancient prophecy. There was a single sword crafted by the Seers and used by the chosen ones great great grandson/daughter (I am assuming that heritage armor implies the commander is related to the player character in gw1). This is fantasy, it only makes sense it you allow it to.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Jables.4659" said:

> I know this is an oldish thread, but that comment about The Shining Blade made by Kettlecorn bugged me. We didn't need The Shining Blade, a weapon forged by the powerful race of spellcasters known as the Seers in Guild Wars 1 because we literally had an actual Seer help us to infuse our armor in order to survive fighting them. The lore presented to us now tells us that the weapon existed back then, and the Shining Blade probably had it and used it to fight the Mursaat. Still, its just one weapon and judging by how drawn out the battle with Lazarus was you wouldn't expect a single soldier with that sword to destroy the entirety of the Mursaat in the same manner that the player character did through fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophecies. With Lazarus, a rather exceptional Mursaat withdrawing into the mists (or whatever it was he did to escape, hide, and survive) there was no longer a chosen one to fulfill an ancient prophecy. There was a single sword crafted by the Seers and used by the chosen ones great great grandson/daughter (I am assuming that heritage armor implies the commander is related to the player character in gw1). This is fantasy, it only makes sense it you allow it to.

 

That doesn't take into account non human commanders though.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Jables.4659" said:

> The lore presented to us now tells us that the weapon existed back then, and the Shining Blade probably had it and used it to fight the Mursaat.

 

I mean, aside from the fact that it's never shown or talked about there's this:

 

The Blade fought mursaat tyranny from the shadows until we found the allies needed to wage war and retake Kryta. We hunted down the mursaat that the Titans spared, killing all but one: Lazarus.

**Afterward**, a gift arrived: the sword we call the Shining Blade. As the last lay dying, the Seers bestowed us their ancient weapon and a duty to destroy the last mursaat, should he ever return.

 

The Shining Blade were given the Shining Blade when only Lazarus was left. We don't know when the weapon was forged, but the Shining Blade didn't have the weapon until after the events of War in Kryta.

 

> @"Jables.4659" said:

> With Lazarus, a rather exceptional Mursaat withdrawing into the mists (or whatever it was he did to escape, hide, and survive) there was no longer a chosen one to fulfill an ancient prophecy. There was a single sword crafted by the Seers and used by the chosen ones great great grandson/daughter (I am assuming that heritage armor implies the commander is related to the player character in gw1). This is fantasy, it only makes sense it you allow it to.

 

Well, ignoring the fact that an asura, sylvari, charr, or norn PC couldn't be related to the GW1 PC, Livia outright calls us Chosen just before facing Lazarus, and Livia said we were to fulfill that prophecy (laid by the dying last Seer who gave The Shining Blade to the Shining Blade).

[norbes.3620]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> Well, ignoring the fact that an asura, sylvari, charr, or norn PC couldn't be related to the GW1 PC, Livia outright calls us Chosen just before facing Lazarus, and Livia said we were to fulfill that prophecy (laid by the dying last Seer who gave The Shining Blade to the Shining Blade).

 

i sumbled on this one cuz to me being Chosen implemented Ascension and i just cant figure our how or when the Pact Com. have achieved that. maybe u can find some light in this for me :)

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"norbes.3620" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >

> > Well, ignoring the fact that an asura, sylvari, charr, or norn PC couldn't be related to the GW1 PC, Livia outright calls us Chosen just before facing Lazarus, and Livia said we were to fulfill that prophecy (laid by the dying last Seer who gave The Shining Blade to the Shining Blade).

>

> i sumbled on this one cuz to me being Chosen implemented Ascension and i just cant figure our how or when the Pact Com. have achieved that. maybe u can find some light in this for me :)

 

you need to be chosen to be able to perform ascention - but it doesn't mean you haev already performed it.

PC in GW1 was chosen long before they did ascention ritual.

 

if PS in gw2 has achieved ascention before lazarus fight we'd not have to implement jantir's eye to the fight at all - but we were able to use it because of us being chosen.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Technically, all being Chosen really means is having the potential to become "powerful magic users". This potential does include the potential to become Ascended, however.

 

Of course, the former notion comes from a group which lied about what they were doing to Chosen (White Mantle), and the latter comes from a person who had many reasons to lie (Khilbron). Outside of Livia's one comment, we only ever see the term being used in relation to the Flameseeker Prophecies (and the White Mantle finding suitable villagers to sacrifice atop the Bloodstone).

[norbes.3620]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Technically, all being Chosen really means is having the potential to become "powerful magic users". This potential does include the potential to become Ascended, however.

>

> Of course, the former notion comes from a group which lied about what they were doing to Chosen (White Mantle), and the latter comes from a person who had many reasons to lie (Khilbron). Outside of Livia's one comment, we only ever see the term being used in relation to the Flameseeker Prophecies (and the White Mantle finding suitable villagers to sacrifice atop the Bloodstone).

 

so the eye of janthir was used to find powerful souls to sacrifice because it was searching for "Chosen" People (yea i already knew that it was searching for the sacrifices. this is about the conditions on wich it's deciding)

Considering that for me it makes sense that the PC is Chosen cuz he is indeed supposed to be one of the most powerful People on that planet at least of the known People and all playable classes are Magic users in one form or the other unlike the regular Seraph for example

 

still the lack of Ascension bugs me when it Comes to being able to see lazarus

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"norbes.3620" said:

> still the lack of Ascension bugs me when it Comes to being able to see lazarus

 

I'll blame that on that shiny blade in his chest during the fight....

(been a while since I've run that instance - wasn't he ocasionally disappearing and had to be revealed by breaking the breakbar on eye of janthir?)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"norbes.3620" said:

> > still the lack of Ascension bugs me when it Comes to being able to see lazarus

>

> I'll blame that on that shiny blade in his chest during the fight....

> (been a while since I've run that instance - wasn't he ocasionally disappearing and had to be revealed by breaking the breakbar on eye of janthir?)

 

Yes, he was occasionally disappearing, and we did attack the Eye of Janthir to reveal him. Though if you played a heavy light-CC condi build, like Reaper, then you probably put in 0 effort in breaking that bar, like I did on my main.

[norbes.3620]

I will replay it then and pay more Attention

[I Love Root Beer.1872]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > So how the Commander aquired the Claw?

>

> He didn't, it's a game mechanic, not lore. The claw is there. I even gave you a picture. The commander doesn't have it.

 

He makes a very valid point. At best, legendary weapons are just cosmetic ascended weapons with stat swapping abilities, nothing more.