Legatus.3608 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: More than doubled cd on panic strike More than doubled cd on instant reflexes More than doubled cd on pain response Upper hand cd increased by 66% AA damage reduced Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s LS damage reduced If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, fuck if that happens the world might as well explode. As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Thieves are hated more than ever, but not because the people who play them are weak and pathetic. Thieves are hated because Arenanet left their insane mechanics untouched since their inception. The blame for it all comes down to the creators of the mechanics, not the people who play them. I mean, if I could press an "I win" button, why wouldn't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. once again you are saying stuff that is way off base S/D you claim as being easymode is the spec being viable. When compared to the skill required & risk used on s/d thief vs Holosmith, Scourge, FB, Mirage, etc, etc, etc. The difficulty level is tilted FAR on the thief's side. Easy mode thief is 5>F1>1111. That's the real brain dead spec on thief. Please stop spreading misinformation. I and many others have proved you wrong repeatedly on just about every subject. Please knock it off and have a constructive discussion. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > More than doubled cd on panic strike > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > More than doubled cd on pain response > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > AA damage reduced > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > LS damage reduced > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. Meta S/D runs Improv which on double steal almost guarantees a reset so a lot of these cooldown changes aren't as big of a deal as you're claiming they're going to be to be honest. I don't think at the top end things will change that much. Upper hand changes pretty much just punish spamming 3 more than anything. The damage reductions aren't totally unreasonable, either. AA could probably have been left as-is, but I don't think it's enough make S/D worthless lol. S/D is good because of double unblockable on FS/LS into Firebrand and will probably still stay good for that reason alone. Worst case is the build opts for Trickster instead of BT which ends up negating some of the nerfs and with SoA there's enough cleansing to be plenty workable. The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. The D/P buffs originally proposed were way out of line, anyways. Two Shadow Shots would kill most people from the 40% buff to damage which would have the skill dealing almost as much damage as backstab, and HS buffs weren't realistically going to change much except buff people at the absolute lowest level of play who spam 2. There's more to doing well in sPvP than copying metabattle's FoTM overtuned spec. A guy made it to the top 100 playing full wells point-denial reaper which is a garbage build and generally a team liability if counterplayed. The guy playing DE probably found wins via good macro. The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > AA damage reduced > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > LS damage reduced > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > Meta S/D runs Improv which on double steal almost guarantees a reset so a lot of these cooldown changes aren't as big of a deal as you're claiming they're going to be to be honest. Improvisation has an ICD 20sec, only one of the Steals will proc it even within Swindler's Equilibrium effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > AA damage reduced > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > LS damage reduced > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > AA damage reduced > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > Meta S/D runs Improv which on double steal almost guarantees a reset so a lot of these cooldown changes aren't as big of a deal as you're claiming they're going to be to be honest. > > Improvisation has an ICD 20sec, only one of the Steals will proc it even within Swindler's Equilibrium effect. I keep forgetting they added this cooldown, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > AA damage reduced > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. > > This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. > > But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. It hard-counters firebrand on-point and FS/LS is literally spam 3 to win half the time. People getting salty about having two thieves are either dumb or the thieves aren't playing to counter FB. The guy who played DE in top10 said he preferred having a second thief on the team, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > > AA damage reduced > > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > > > > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > > > > > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. > > > > This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. > > > > But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. > > It hard-counters firebrand on-point and FS/LS is literally spam 3 to win half the time. People getting salty about having two thieves are either dumb or the thieves aren't playing to counter FB. > > The guy who played DE in top10 said he preferred having a second thief on the team, btw. You're going to have to do better than "everyone who plays pvp is dumb" to get a real response out of me. This isn't isolated cases this is every single game where there is 2 thief across the board in any bracket. The DE guy might prefer it because he's playing a thief that isn't a thief, but his teammates most likely do not. Oh and, tell your FB buddies to learn how to walk sideways since that's about all it takes to avoid damage from spam 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Mesmer still wins the 1st place of my personal most hated classes ranking, thief is 2nd and engi is 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > > > AA damage reduced > > > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. > > > > > > This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. > > > > > > But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. > > > > It hard-counters firebrand on-point and FS/LS is literally spam 3 to win half the time. People getting salty about having two thieves are either dumb or the thieves aren't playing to counter FB. > > > > The guy who played DE in top10 said he preferred having a second thief on the team, btw. > > You're going to have to do better than "everyone who plays pvp is dumb" to get a real response out of me. This isn't isolated cases this is every single game where there is 2 thief across the board in any bracket. The DE guy might prefer it because he's playing a thief that isn't a thief, but his teammates most likely do not. > > Oh and, tell your FB buddies to learn how to walk sideways since that's about all it takes to avoid damage from spam 3. I mean if the thieves aren't playing to counter the FB which is only countered by thief... then yeah they kind of deserve it to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 It's a core design flaw. In PvP it always feels "cheap" if a Thief gets you, due to the excessive target-lock-breaking and the mobility. In PvE, the class hence suffers from being a "PvP class". The underlying basic design idea back at launch was cool, focus on stolen skills and a ton of versatility. They just never followed through with actual class-design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LONGA.1652 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 There arn't much group PVE content that need Thief's mobility. The one that have will be fine to be done with other class and team work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > > > > AA damage reduced > > > > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. > > > > > > > > This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. > > > > > > > > But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. > > > > > > It hard-counters firebrand on-point and FS/LS is literally spam 3 to win half the time. People getting salty about having two thieves are either dumb or the thieves aren't playing to counter FB. > > > > > > The guy who played DE in top10 said he preferred having a second thief on the team, btw. > > > > You're going to have to do better than "everyone who plays pvp is dumb" to get a real response out of me. This isn't isolated cases this is every single game where there is 2 thief across the board in any bracket. The DE guy might prefer it because he's playing a thief that isn't a thief, but his teammates most likely do not. > > > > Oh and, tell your FB buddies to learn how to walk sideways since that's about all it takes to avoid damage from spam 3. > > I mean if the thieves aren't playing to counter the FB which is only countered by thief... then yeah they kind of deserve it to be honest. They kind of deserve what? I don't understand what you're saying here. But about flanking strike, try this: get on a thief and your buddy on a firebrand and have your buddy walk to his right (Your left) and start spamming FS and tell me how many you connect with. No dodges, just walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I won’t say as hated as most people say. In pvp thieves are almost God’s if done right. Decap, Running away, and killing low numbered people. I havent been kicked because I’m a thief. However when your a thief in any content they will ask are you legit in a raid. But if raiding where I have been, will ask if your doing rotations and have correct gear. And that’s literally all you will get. If you don’t have the right build is probably getting you to be hated. In fractals haven’t done t3s or t4s. But so far joining into a random team on lfg I haven’t been kicked for it. As much as people say I think all classes are hated equally. But if your hitting lfg your going to most likely judged on build rather then class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > > > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > > > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > > > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > > > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > > > > > AA damage reduced > > > > > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > > > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. > > > > > > > > > > This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. > > > > > > > > > > But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. > > > > > > > > It hard-counters firebrand on-point and FS/LS is literally spam 3 to win half the time. People getting salty about having two thieves are either dumb or the thieves aren't playing to counter FB. > > > > > > > > The guy who played DE in top10 said he preferred having a second thief on the team, btw. > > > > > > You're going to have to do better than "everyone who plays pvp is dumb" to get a real response out of me. This isn't isolated cases this is every single game where there is 2 thief across the board in any bracket. The DE guy might prefer it because he's playing a thief that isn't a thief, but his teammates most likely do not. > > > > > > Oh and, tell your FB buddies to learn how to walk sideways since that's about all it takes to avoid damage from spam 3. > > > > I mean if the thieves aren't playing to counter the FB which is only countered by thief... then yeah they kind of deserve it to be honest. > > They kind of deserve what? I don't understand what you're saying here. > > But about flanking strike, try this: get on a thief and your buddy on a firebrand and have your buddy walk to his right (Your left) and start spamming FS and tell me how many you connect with. No dodges, just walking. If both thieves are going to play D/P and try to fight on point they deserve to be flamed a little lol. You can get around that issue with some camera angle changes or by simply de-targeting if the first one fails and tweaking your camera angle without a target to path into the FB because FS is a single-target cleaving hitbox skill so it'll always land when used this way. It's still a double-dodge even when it fails which is also generally okay. I know it's WvW into an ele, but FS/LS does some seriously disgusting damage as you can see from getting a few kills when running back to help defend smc here, so saying the nerf is coming from nowhere is a bit silly considering just how much damage this fairly safe skill can do.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D is not going to be viable after this patch. Here's a list of things affecting specifically SD meta build: > > > > > > > > More than doubled cd on panic strike > > > > > > > > More than doubled cd on instant reflexes > > > > > > > > More than doubled cd on pain response > > > > > > > > Upper hand cd increased by 66% > > > > > > > > AA damage reduced > > > > > > > > Roll for initiative increased from 35 to 40s > > > > > > > > LS damage reduced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you can look at this list and say this build will still be viable next patch IDK if we will ever agree. Understandably some of these were targetted by the "passives" nerf which was across the board, but I don't know of any other classes which relied on them so heavily as thief. Thief isn't one of those classes that survives by using all the abilities on its bar - thief has a low HP pool and relied on dodges and passives to survive. Other classes just use a different trait and slot a different utility - that won't work for thief, specifically won't work for SD after this patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DP was also slightly targetted with a similar AA nerf, pulmonary impact (why? this isnt passive and DP wasnt even in the meta), and the aforementioned panic strike. And DP wasn't even really in the meta last patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, I am tired of seeing "2 thief gg rq" every game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do think we will see, if anything, as a meta build for thief in the next patch is condi thief and/or pistols thieves. Maybe rifle will get a chance now - I still feel like the build sucks but supposedly a guy made top 10 using rifle last season and they didn't much do anything to rifle. IDK. But god forbid you have two thieves on your team, kitten if that happens the world might as well explode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for PVE I have no idea, but these all look like targetted PVP nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lack of D/P buffs and nerfs to PI have almost nothing to do with the S/D nerfs which was what you initially mentioned so this sounds more like an emotional response to the thief getting nerfed than an analytical one or response to my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs feel targeted because they are targeted. S/D core acro is a bit of an over-performer right now. That's not to say other specs like FB and Scourge aren't, and they also need some nerfs, but the current build is not challenging to play and super strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, you get two thief in the same game and everyone quits out of the gate, but somehow the spec is "overperforming". If it was overperforming it would be viable to have 2. What is thief doing exactly that it's TOO GOOD at? It's going to be good at decaps and +1 regardless because of sb5 and the fs/ls is a counter to one specific build, that NEEDS to have a counter and otherwise the spec excels at nothing besides dodging a lot. Which is easily countered. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I'm the one who isn't thinking analytically, right. > > > > > > > > > > It hard-counters firebrand on-point and FS/LS is literally spam 3 to win half the time. People getting salty about having two thieves are either dumb or the thieves aren't playing to counter FB. > > > > > > > > > > The guy who played DE in top10 said he preferred having a second thief on the team, btw. > > > > > > > > You're going to have to do better than "everyone who plays pvp is dumb" to get a real response out of me. This isn't isolated cases this is every single game where there is 2 thief across the board in any bracket. The DE guy might prefer it because he's playing a thief that isn't a thief, but his teammates most likely do not. > > > > > > > > Oh and, tell your FB buddies to learn how to walk sideways since that's about all it takes to avoid damage from spam 3. > > > > > > I mean if the thieves aren't playing to counter the FB which is only countered by thief... then yeah they kind of deserve it to be honest. > > > > They kind of deserve what? I don't understand what you're saying here. > > > > But about flanking strike, try this: get on a thief and your buddy on a firebrand and have your buddy walk to his right (Your left) and start spamming FS and tell me how many you connect with. No dodges, just walking. > > If both thieves are going to play D/P and try to fight on point they deserve to be flamed a little lol. > > You can get around that issue with some camera angle changes or by simply de-targeting if the first one fails and tweaking your camera angle without a target to path into the FB because FS is a single-target cleaving hitbox skill so it'll always land when used this way. It's still a double-dodge even when it fails which is also generally okay. > > I know it's WvW into an ele, but FS/LS does some seriously disgusting damage as you can see from getting a few kills when running back to help defend smc here, so saying the nerf is coming from nowhere is a bit silly considering just how much damage this fairly safe skill can do. > >  > It doesn't matter what you're doing or planning to do though. As soon as someone sees there are 2 thieves on their team they will tell one to change to a different class before the game starts. This isn't new stuff here, I don't know why we're talking about it. And yes, you can manually aim FS but it's the only skill from what I've seen that has such a weird animation requiring you to do that on a targetted attack. I've played all the other classes except rev and I've never seen an animation that weird breaking the auto aim like that. Aiming issues aside, I'm exposing you on that image: It's total shit and representative of nothing. Under the circumstances you're showing I could probably get auto attacks from a warrior to crit for 17k. You really obviously had a buddy sit there on his ele wearing no armor and had friends stack up vuln on him while you had another buddy stack might and other buffs on your own character and stand there while you swing at him. He obviously had no buffs as well which is pretty suspicious as well, since I pretty much never actually get the damage bonus - you ALWAYS steal a boon even on classes with relatively little boon uptime or spam, they still have something. Using 3 signets was a dead giveaway and I question whether you were even wearing the marauder gear you're advertising from that picture. Here's a video of sindrener in you know, A REAL PVP GAME doing the combo on enemies: He gets 2137 on the first hit and 5180 on the second, both crits vs a thief in a normal pvp game. You somehow buffed that to 17k, that's a meme boys. Welcome to memetown. BTW, the damage scaling on flanking strike is exactly the same as a normal sword auto attack, it's actually less damage than the third hit in the AA chain. This entire conversation is a joke honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 For one, it's WvW which I said and where power damage is higher relative to defenses due to how the stats work. I'd have minimum 15 bloodlust going into that fight, anyways. Comparing that to sPvP is asinine; those numbers are high even for WvW standards was the point I was TRYING to make, because that's 23k damage in two skill activations (with the ability to time for one depending on how cast if combo'ed with steal engages) after an evade for 6 initiative. Funny how 0.8 + 1.6 = 2.4 = Backstab's coefficient baseline yet it costs the same initiative as any other setup (or less until CnD goes to 5), dodges, and steals boons while still offering another 20% extra to that 1.6 number. FS/LS damage output right now is literally what it would be like with the revealed timer being at 1s and people chaining backstabs over and over. For two, it's pretty ridiculous you'd make the claim I set that up just because my damage is high lmao. The guy who for a while had the hardest-hitting thief in the game (no longer the case) deals a lot of damage. Who'd have expected that?! For three, tri-signets doesn't add to damage anymore per signet; it's all in Assassin's Signet now so it wouldn't matter if I was running Shadowstep, SoA, or RFI. I use the other two mostly from force of habit at this point as I play D/D which lacks low-cooldown mobility and use S/D for disengages to mimic shadowstep. For four, I don't run marauder gear and have way higher power/ferocity from zerk/valk which isn't doable in sPvP (again, lower damage), so a berserker thief in sPvP would crit way harder than Sindrener in the aforementioned, which is what my damage is closer to. For five, your claims about LS dealing less damage than sword AA is just downright wrong. Slash and Crippling have 1.3 coefficients and LS has a baseline 1.6 and deals another 20% scaling modifier damage with no boons. For six, numerous times in the video LS deals over 6k to targets with boons so your thief example is cherry-picked. For seven, 7-8k unblockable damage on a low-offense build on a spammable evade boon-ripping one-skill combo is a ton of damage when also comparing the normalized damage in the rest of sPvP. For eight, the 15% reductions are clearly not going to change high-level play like the video you posted so why use it as a basis for argument? You think I'm making memes but you clearly have no idea what the skill coefficients even are on S/D or the rest of thief for that matter. So why are you discussing damage? Want thief to be better? Nerf FB, Scourge, and Holo. Done. S/D is over-performing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I showed you the build in a real damage scenario and your showed me some obvious meme garbage. Who is right? Really do you see people on these forums complaining about wvw thieves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 The hate you guys talk about reminds me of the pure hatred people had for thieves in world of warcraft.Its the mechanics and how it works in pvp, and how thieves are made to be annoying and really buzz around you stunning you and biting at your heels and drawing blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"blambidy.3216" said: > As much as people say I think all classes are hated equally. But if your hitting lfg your going to most likely judged on build rather then class. Which game are you talking about? I want to try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > As much as people say I think all classes are hated equally. But if your hitting lfg your going to most likely judged on build rather then class. > > Which game are you talking about? I want to try it out. I dunno if thieves are as hated as necros, i mean:Everyone goes nuts crying about necros on the forums, especially scourge.The tears of unfathomable sadness is so great, that Anet actually nerfs the necros into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlie.7641 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. Them adding the ability to double cast flanking strike was a horrible mistake. they should of kept the last version. not only was it more fluid, but it also had counterplay. since the "punish" frames never moved. They also need to add back some of the "Tricks" they removed. s/d became boring when they turned it into FS steal LS repeat. it used to be about buzzing around and confusing the shit out of your enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"Highlie.7641" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > The patch won’t make thief unviable. A shave in spike damage was inevitable with a reduction in sustain. > > > > > > > > You have to judge the patch holistically. There’s too many nerfs to other classes for us to complain. > > > > > > Well the thing is they completely destroyed sd as a spec and dp, which isn't even meta right now, also took some solid targeted nerfs. > > > > > > This is on a class where you queue for pvp, get in and first thing you see is "two thief? Switch or we lose" > > > > > > When I can get into a game and not hear that, thief will deserve nerfs > > > > > > Until then idgaf how much these forums cry, the class didn't need nerfs > > > > What are you talking about lol. The patch is going to have very little effect on thief's potency in the meta right now. It's just not going to be as easy to spam 3 on S/D core and kill people or nuke things with the AA chain on MH dagger. The current meta S/D is generally easymode. > > > > Long-term, it might have some adverse consequences when things change but as of now S/D is absolutely over-performing for how safe it is. D/P isn't very good because of FB, Scourge, and Holo just being outright overpowered. > > Them adding the ability to double cast flanking strike was a horrible mistake. they should of kept the last version. not only was it more fluid, but it also had counterplay. since the "punish" frames never moved. > > They also need to add back some of the "Tricks" they removed. s/d became boring when they turned it into FS steal LS repeat. it used to be about buzzing around and confusing the kitten out of your enemy. Not really. Precasting FS to acquire LS without needing to hit anything is more broken than the current build; it was effectively the same thing, just that it rotated a gap close + immob into an unblockable boon rip with a pretty high damage coefficient, and then teleported to safety. This made S/D safer and require less skill to apply pressure in general. I'd rather have just seen FS's damage get reduced pretty substantially to like a .4 coefficient instead of the .8 it currently has. It'd cut 3spam in its full chain down by around 20% on the rotation but would keep LS as the hard-hitting ability it pretty much needs to be. A lot of the problem with the design of the thief is that there's little room to really make kit identities better and more cohesive around a style of play. D/D, S/D, and P/D are all wildly different kits with very different strategies yet share OH dagger. On the other hand, you have S/D and S/P being very different, D/P and D/D being very different, and P/P and P/D also being very different, so it's not like this is something that can be reworked with just some MH tweaks, either. To really flesh out the thief's skills better to create better kit identities and make the skills have more breadth of purpose to allow for "tricky" things without making the class OP, I think skills 2, 3, and 4 should all be dual skills. But that's a huge rework and I know damned well ANet would never put forth those kinds of resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Tabootrinket.2631" said: > > Thief life in a nutshell : > > > > -other professions : " Thieves are OP nerf them the hell up " > > - thief : " Oh ok, can I get in your team then ? " > > - other professions : " What ? Hell no thieves are useless " > > - thief : " wait what ? Yeah so can we get some improvements to be more useful to the team ? " > > - other professions : " What ? No thieves are more than fine as they are. " > > - thief : "Huuh... so why don't you accept me in your team ? " > > - other professions : "thieves are useless " > > Funnily accurate ^^ > > In fractals, there are groups that either tolerate thieves or refuse them completely. Never does anyone welcome or ask for a thief. Not even for skipping stuff because mesmer can do that too, and better. When I'm not insta-kicked as thief, people are usually surprised after the run how well thief can do. They also think the class is easy to play because we don't have difficult rotations like weaver or holosmith. The basics are easy, but it takes a lot of practice to get really good, like with other classes. I have more than 2000 hours on my thief now, and there's still room for improvement. To be fair, most fractal groups don't ask for specific DPS classes. They just ask for DPS. I know nobody asks for me on my engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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