Elusive Mind change is really bad！

[Mahou.3924]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

> This entire thread is absurd. This nerf is perfect.

>

> I got to plat for the first time ever using just mirage solo queue. I'm not that great a player, so trust me when I say this nerf is completely justified. No class should, for any reason, be completely immune to stuns or crowd control. This entire expansion has let mesmer get away with that.

>

> Don't get me wrong, I think stunbreaks and the like are absolutely necessary, but on most other classes it requires a utility, or some steady stab generation. All mirage has to do is dodge and bam, the stun never existed. You should be able to get out of stuns if you can, or are built for it, but it should DEFINITELY cost you something for not evading the stun in the first kitten place. A bit of exhaustion won't do anything except force the mesmer to disengage to wait out the exhaustion, which in 3 seconds is easy to do for the most mobile elite class in the game.

>

> Honestly the upcoming nerfs to mirage are still not enough, and more should be implimented. Infinite Horizons was a better choice anyways.

 

I know reading AND comprehending what others write can be hard sometimes, but you overdid yourself in having done neither! Congrats, champ...

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

> This entire thread is absurd. This nerf is perfect.

>

> I got to plat for the first time ever using just mirage solo queue. I'm not that great a player, so trust me when I say this nerf is completely justified. No class should, for any reason, be completely immune to stuns or crowd control. This entire expansion has let mesmer get away with that.

>

> Don't get me wrong, I think stunbreaks and the like are absolutely necessary, but on most other classes it requires a utility, or some steady stab generation. All mirage has to do is dodge and bam, the stun never existed. You should be able to get out of stuns if you can, or are built for it, but it should DEFINITELY cost you something for not evading the stun in the first kitten place. A bit of exhaustion won't do anything except force the mesmer to disengage to wait out the exhaustion, which in 3 seconds is easy to do for the most mobile elite class in the game.

>

> Honestly the upcoming nerfs to mirage are still not enough, and more should be implimented. Infinite Horizons was a better choice anyways.

If infinite horizon is better anyway and it share the tier with illusive mind, then there is a cost in taking illusive mind because you cant take infinite horizon at the same time. That's how choosing your traits work. Why are you arguing against yourself?

 

[Odik.4587]

Only i see all traits that mirage has a terrible garbage without any thought behind this elite spec?

Regen on dodge that soften condi duration (except classes can achieve 100% duration this 20% looks pathetic) -> pathetic copy of new soulbeast trait Second Skin that reduce condi damage taken by 33% which is godlike compared to that.

1s of protection after dodge????????? Top tier garbage...Stolen from ranger Companion's Defence from ranger again but that gives him/pet 2 seconds ,not 1 ,which work better with boon duration . (if someone ask me why its taken in current mesmer builds ? Its obviously better than nothing)

Riddle of the sand nerfhammered.

Self deception is just way worse version of DE .

If you are fan of axe(pve builds) , ok this trait is ok :) [axe trait]

Desert distortion gives you close to nothing.

No choice in GM traits , IH -> good in pve, bad in pvp; Dune cloak -> iirc worthless everywhere ; EM -> solo carried entire elite spec and made it worth taking over chrono.

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

> This entire thread is absurd. This nerf is perfect.

>

> I got to plat for the first time ever using just mirage solo queue. I'm not that great a player, so trust me when I say this nerf is completely justified. No class should, for any reason, be completely immune to stuns or crowd control. This entire expansion has let mesmer get away with that.

>

> Don't get me wrong, I think stunbreaks and the like are absolutely necessary, but on most other classes it requires a utility, or some steady stab generation. All mirage has to do is dodge and bam, the stun never existed. You should be able to get out of stuns if you can, or are built for it, but it should DEFINITELY cost you something for not evading the stun in the first kitten place. A bit of exhaustion won't do anything except force the mesmer to disengage to wait out the exhaustion, which in 3 seconds is easy to do for the most mobile elite class in the game.

>

> Honestly the upcoming nerfs to mirage are still not enough, and more should be implimented. Infinite Horizons was a better choice anyways.

 

This nerf is garbage. It doesn't do anything to lessen Mirage's immunity to stuns. As a class, mesmer itself already has a ton of stunbreaks, not to mention we have distortion as an instant cast skill in case our stunbreaks aren't up yet. As mirage, even without EM we can still dodge during stuns to evade the damage. Putting exhaustion on EM does nothing to tone down our access to stunbreaks at all

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> People seem to think that Smiter's boon is a tale of anet righteously nerfing an overpowered mechanic into the ground.

>

> It is not.

>

> Smiter's boon is a cautionary tale of anet designing themselves into a corner where they ended up with no idea how to fix a mechanic and had to remove it from the game instead.

>

> This change is absolutely another case of Smiter's boon. Anet designed themselves into a corner with a mechanic that could never be anything but broken or useless. It was broken, now it's useless. Congratulations to the balance team for learning nothing in a decade.

 

100% this.

 

[Oneira.7691]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

> This entire thread is absurd. This nerf is perfect.

>

> I got to plat for the first time ever using just mirage solo queue. I'm not that great a player, so trust me when I say this nerf is completely justified. No class should, for any reason, be completely immune to stuns or crowd control. This entire expansion has let mesmer get away with that.

>

> Don't get me wrong, I think stunbreaks and the like are absolutely necessary, but on most other classes it requires a utility, or some steady stab generation. All mirage has to do is dodge and bam, the stun never existed. You should be able to get out of stuns if you can, or are built for it, but it should DEFINITELY cost you something for not evading the stun in the first kitten place. A bit of exhaustion won't do anything except force the mesmer to disengage to wait out the exhaustion, which in 3 seconds is easy to do for the most mobile elite class in the game.

>

> Honestly the upcoming nerfs to mirage are still not enough, and more should be implimented. Infinite Horizons was a better choice anyways.

 

A bit of exhaustion won't do anything except force the mesmer to choose another grandmaster trait. The balance team is taking something that was meant for thieves, who have other means of regaining endurance, and applying it to mesmers, who don't.

Would you care to give mesmers some equivalent of Endurance Thief trait to go along with this nerf?

 

Or how about pairing exhaustion with Unhindered Combat, as it is with thieves, meaning that the Mesmer's EM would give the Mesmer swiftness and damage reduction to go with Endurance Thief?

[EUmad.7645]

No , the change is right. I play a mesmer too . Try to roll something else and go 1vs 1 against a mirage and you see how elusive mind is ok. Elusive mind has to go away, or you have to give something similar to every other class. A class that can not be cc, has perma stun break is completely broken . If you don't belive that it is broken try to roll something else in spvp. I did last 5 season with mesmer, but becouse i am bored i tried to roll something else ( ele, holosmith ) . To kill a mirage in 1 vs 1 you have to completely outplay him , like it was with warrior. It is unfair and broken for other classes . It is not a complain but it is something you can try by yourself. And i use mirage for roaming in wvw and for spvp so i know that the change on elusive mind is really huge, but in my opinion it is something necessary . You will have to take a condi clean with you but this is ok, it is the same for all the other professions .... you can not have a ton of evade , perma stun break, clones and also a good condi clean.... it is something unfair for all other classes. ( i rolled a mesmer when i saw how strong it was chronomancer in spvp and then i have never gone back )

Probably other things have to be tuned down on other classes ( warrior bouble or something of FB ) and my fear is not about elusive mind change, which is ok for me, but with other skill changes which hurt damage output a lot . I think that the tune down of some skills and traits will help build diversity . I hope so that anet will buff something old, expecially in core spec becouse neither POF neither HOT specs where fun to play as old ones . In these days i am experimenting with a engi pistol pistol build with nades ... something completely "trash" today , but it is fun as hell ...

[Levetty.1279]

> @"EUmad.7645" said:

> No , the change is right. I play a mesmer too . Try to roll something else and go 1vs 1 against a mirage and you see how elusive mind is ok. Elusive mind has to go away, or you have to give something similar to every other class. A class that can not be cc, has perma stun break is completely broken . If you don't belive that it is broken try to roll something else in spvp. I did last 5 season with mesmer, but becouse i am bored i tried to roll something else ( ele, holosmith ) . To kill a mirage in 1 vs 1 you have to completely outplay him , like it was with warrior. It is unfair and broken for other classes . It is not a complain but it is something you can try by yourself. And i use mirage for roaming in wvw and for spvp so i know that the change on elusive mind is really huge, but in my opinion it is something necessary . You will have to take a condi clean with you but this is ok, it is the same for all the other professions .... you can not have a ton of evade , perma stun break, clones and also a good condi clean.... it is something unfair for all other classes. ( i rolled a mesmer when i saw how strong it was chronomancer in spvp and then i have never gone back )

> Probably other things have to be tuned down on other classes ( warrior bouble or something of FB ) and my fear is not about elusive mind change, which is ok for me, but with other skill changes which hurt damage output a lot . I think that the tune down of some skills and traits will help build diversity . I hope so that anet will buff something old, expecially in core spec becouse neither POF neither HOT specs where fun to play as old ones . In these days i am experimenting with a engi pistol pistol build with nades ... something completely "trash" today , but it is fun as hell ...

 

Tfw you literally don't read anything in the thread and then comment anyway.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"EUmad.7645" said:

> No , the change is right. I play a mesmer too . Try to roll something else and go 1vs 1 against a mirage and you see how elusive mind is ok. Elusive mind has to go away, or you have to give something similar to every other class. A class that can not be cc, has perma stun break is completely broken . If you don't belive that it is broken try to roll something else in spvp. I did last 5 season with mesmer, but becouse i am bored i tried to roll something else ( ele, holosmith ) . To kill a mirage in 1 vs 1 you have to completely outplay him , like it was with warrior. It is unfair and broken for other classes . It is not a complain but it is something you can try by yourself. And i use mirage for roaming in wvw and for spvp so i know that the change on elusive mind is really huge, but in my opinion it is something necessary . You will have to take a condi clean with you but this is ok, it is the same for all the other professions .... you can not have a ton of evade , perma stun break, clones and also a good condi clean.... it is something unfair for all other classes. ( i rolled a mesmer when i saw how strong it was chronomancer in spvp and then i have never gone back )

> Probably other things have to be tuned down on other classes ( warrior bouble or something of FB ) and my fear is not about elusive mind change, which is ok for me, but with other skill changes which hurt damage output a lot . I think that the tune down of some skills and traits will help build diversity . I hope so that anet will buff something old, expecially in core spec becouse neither POF neither HOT specs where fun to play as old ones . In these days i am experimenting with a engi pistol pistol build with nades ... something completely "trash" today , but it is fun as hell ...

 

And you’re wrong.

It’s been discussed multiple times already. Exhaustion is a sh** mechanic for any class outside thief. Elusive mind either needs the stun break removed and more condi clear/endurance regen added or a icd added to the stun break portion only.

So either Anet needs to remove thief’s ability to regen endurance outside of vigor or give all other classes endurance regen abilities. Oh and they need to give every class fast hands because that’s not fair either.

 

If you think any of that should happen you’re out of your mind.

Condi clear on dodge on jaunt is five clears. Mantra is 6. There’s nothing too good about it.

 

We have no more evades than any other class. Mirrors are a horrible mechanic so let’s not even go there.

 

Clones.... yeah let’s balance Mesmer skills around the class mechanic that is easily destroyed by AoE, do little damage on their own, and do nothing to “hide” the true Mesmer.

 

The only thing that needs to happen is the damage on disenchanter and defender need to be toned down(granted how people are getting hit by them or swordsman is beyond me) and elusive minds needs an icd or stun break removed and replaced with something else. That’s it. Other classes need tweaks done to them but Mesmer is in a good spot across all game modes for once.

[Rahvin.4308]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

 

> Tfw you literally don't read anything in the thread and then comment anyway.

 

Is this like some meme or something? Any time someone disagrees with somebody, they just claim "you didn't even read". We're reading the thread. We see the discussion about whether or not the change is good. We don't care if it means you'll go back to being silver instead of gold, this change needs to happen, and it's going to regardless of how much you people troll the forums. This community really needs to stop being so terrible.

 

Stop relying on a single trait or class to be good at pvp, just practice and get better.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

We're reading the thread. We see the discussion about whether or not the change is good. We don't care if it means you'll go back to being silver instead of gold, this change needs to happen [...]

 

Just from this part, I can see that even *if* you read things - which I don't believe you did - then you didn't *understand* them.

I'll try to sum it up:

 

1. Mesmer is too strong in smallest-scale PvP. Yes.

2. Elusive Mind was too strong.

3. New Elusive Mind is too weak.

4. Mesmer is still too strong in smallest-scale PvP.

 

Now, what would it take to make you accept that maybe the EM-nerf was both wrong (as it didn't re**balance** the trait, it merely dropped it from the effective PvP game as a cheap stopgap solution) and **also** the wrong thing to nerf in the first place?

 

In fact, I'd go one further: This whole thread should have never existed. Because EM should have never been designed, the trait was no less bad (in regards to class-design as a whole, not just Mesmer) when it first came live. "Class design"-wise, only having two GM traits would have been the better choice, simply because as I think Pyro said above, EM designed the spec into a corner. And the devs keep doing this, possibly as a result of just **how little** time they get to work on design/balance/integrity.

[Levetty.1279]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

>

> > Tfw you literally don't read anything in the thread and then comment anyway.

>

> Is this like some meme or something? Any time someone disagrees with somebody, they just claim "you didn't even read". We're reading the thread. We see the discussion about whether or not the change is good. We don't care if it means you'll go back to being silver instead of gold, this change needs to happen, and it's going to regardless of how much you people troll the forums. This community really needs to stop being so terrible.

>

> Stop relying on a single trait or class to be good at pvp, just practice and get better.

 

If you are actually reading the thread then the only troll here is you because instead of contributing to the conversation you are arguing against some stupid strawman based on the title of the thread and nothing more.

[Oneira.7691]

> @"Rahvin.4308" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

>

> > Tfw you literally don't read anything in the thread and then comment anyway.

>

> Is this like some meme or something? Any time someone disagrees with somebody, they just claim "you didn't even read". We're reading the thread. We see the discussion about whether or not the change is good. We don't care if it means you'll go back to being silver instead of gold, this change needs to happen, and it's going to regardless of how much you people troll the forums. This community really needs to stop being so terrible.

>

> Stop relying on a single trait or class to be good at pvp, just practice and get better.

 

That is a ridiculous comment. The change to EM means that it would no longer effective as a trait and the Mesmer is better off choosing one of the others. So, rather than relying one trait, it means that one trait would become largely ineffective. As others have suggested, rather than exhaustion, which is a terrible choice for nerfing EM for a Mesmer, having an ICD on stun break makes far more sense.

[Eramonster.2718]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Energy .

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Energy .

 

That’s already a standard in most builds in WvW do don’t. Just don’t.

[Bigbosos.2063]

I just came back to the game so I don't really know much about recent game mechanics. I read the whole thread but I didn't understand: why would exhaustion be such a problem for that trait? I tried to google it but wiki doesn't give any info about how much endurance regen is reduced. We'd still keep the stunbreak, we'd still keep the dodge while stunned, and with Nomad's endurance we also have a lot of vigor uptime. Can someone elaborate please?

 

PS: where do you guys read about the upcoming patchnotes?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Bigbosos.2063" said:

> I just came back to the game so I don't really know much about recent game mechanics. I read the whole thread but I didn't understand: why would exhaustion be such a problem for that trait? I tried to google it but wiki doesn't give any info about how much endurance regen is reduced. We'd still keep the stunbreak, we'd still keep the dodge while stunned, and with Nomad's endurance we also have a lot of vigor uptime. Can someone elaborate please?

>

> PS: where do you guys read about the upcoming patchnotes?

 

Exhaustion disables endurance regen entirely, that's the issue. Vigor uptime wouldn't matter, exhaustion blocks it.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Bigbosos.2063" said:

> I just came back to the game so I don't really know much about recent game mechanics. I read the whole thread but I didn't understand: why would exhaustion be such a problem for that trait? I tried to google it but wiki doesn't give any info about how much endurance regen is reduced. We'd still keep the stunbreak, we'd still keep the dodge while stunned, and with Nomad's endurance we also have a lot of vigor uptime. Can someone elaborate please?

>

> PS: where do you guys read about the upcoming patchnotes?

 

- Exhaustion stops all endurance regen.

- Mirage can dodge while cced without needing to trait Elusive Mind.

- For any cc effect <1s (or arguably even up to 1.5s) it is likely better to dodge *without* EM, getting 1s of evade without losing all endurance regen for 3s. The ability to immediately move and cast is unlikely to make up for this in a lot of situations.

 

In addition there is no ability to directly return endurance, aside from sigils and runes.

 

Eg - what happens if you hit dodge in the middle of say a 1/2s cc effect? You get punished with 3s exhaustion. In this situation I'd rather have a normal dodge which at least would just prevent dodge from executing when cced (which for short duration effects isn't the end of the world), not excessively punishing you for it.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Bigbosos.2063" said:

> I just came back to the game so I don't really know much about recent game mechanics. I read the whole thread but I didn't understand: why would exhaustion be such a problem for that trait? I tried to google it but wiki doesn't give any info about how much endurance regen is reduced. We'd still keep the stunbreak, we'd still keep the dodge while stunned, and with Nomad's endurance we also have a lot of vigor uptime. Can someone elaborate please?

>

> PS: where do you guys read about the upcoming patchnotes?

 

Like Pyro said, exhaustion stops all endurance regen, and mirage offers no flat endurance refill like DD does, so exhaustion is more difficult for a mirage to deal with.

 

But a lot of people are also upset because exhaustin does nothing to actually address what is overperforming about EM, and that is the stunbreak it offers. This change doesn't take the stunbreak away from the trait, so it doesn't address any of the actual issues with the trait. So overall its turning the trait into something that is no fun to play with, without actually fixing the problem.

[Bigbosos.2063]

I understand. So in the end given low amount of long stuns in pvp, it would just be better to not use the trait?

[Curunen.8729]

Oh well there we go, it's done.

 

At this point I'd love to only have the condi cleanse on dodge, even if that is mediocre for a GM trait. Forget the rest of it.

[Curunen.8729]

Tip for anyone still wanting to use EM for the condi clear - **it's better to wait** for cc effects to wear off before dodging rather than breaking cc, unless it's really long duration and you need to move asap.

 

I would find that hilarious if it wasn't so stupid. xD

 

Edit - if they're not going to change this then they really need to prevent mirage dodge from working at all when cced, unless you have EM traited, otherwise this trait is ridiculous just for the sake of accessing more condi cleanse.

[ZDragon.3046]

Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

[Curunen.8729]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

 

Nevermind that with either IH or Dune Cloak you still don't have to think and can just brainlessly mash dodge whenever you like?

 

It's kind of pointless having a stunbreak on dodge if the incentive is not to use it most of the time. Sure I like the skill behind choosing whether to break a stun or not, but given how mirage dodge works as standard (without EM) it is currently a downgrade aside from the condi cleanse.

 

As I said, if they're keeping this then they really need to make mirage dodge not function at all when cced unless you trait EM, otherwise it's contradictory.

[Levetty.1279]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

>

> Nevermind that with either IH or Dune Cloak you still don't have to think and can just brainlessly mash dodge whenever you like?

>

> It's kind of pointless having a stunbreak on dodge if the incentive is not to use it most of the time. Sure I like the skill behind choosing whether to break a stun or not, but given how mirage dodge works as standard (without EM) it is currently a downgrade aside from the condi cleanse.

>

> As I said, if they're keeping this then they really need to make mirage dodge not function at all when cced unless you trait EM, otherwise it's contradictory.

 

Can we not ruin Mirage Cloak please?

 

I know I have Chrono now for what I do but I would still like Mirage as an option to change it up every so often.