Elusive Mind change is really bad！

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

> >

> > Nevermind that with either IH or Dune Cloak you still don't have to think and can just brainlessly mash dodge whenever you like?

> >

> > It's kind of pointless having a stunbreak on dodge if the incentive is not to use it most of the time. Sure I like the skill behind choosing whether to break a stun or not, but given how mirage dodge works as standard (without EM) it is currently a downgrade aside from the condi cleanse.

> >

> > As I said, if they're keeping this then they really need to make mirage dodge not function at all when cced unless you trait EM, otherwise it's contradictory.

>

> Can we not ruin Mirage Cloak please?

>

> I know I have Chrono now for what I do but I would still like Mirage as an option to change it up every so often.

 

If everyone on the PvP forums have their way Mesmer wouldn’t exist.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

> >

> > Nevermind that with either IH or Dune Cloak you still don't have to think and can just brainlessly mash dodge whenever you like?

> >

> > It's kind of pointless having a stunbreak on dodge if the incentive is not to use it most of the time. Sure I like the skill behind choosing whether to break a stun or not, but given how mirage dodge works as standard (without EM) it is currently a downgrade aside from the condi cleanse.

> >

> > As I said, if they're keeping this then they really need to make mirage dodge not function at all when cced unless you trait EM, otherwise it's contradictory.

>

> Can we not ruin Mirage Cloak please?

>

> I know I have Chrono now for what I do but I would still like Mirage as an option to change it up every so often.

 

Because not being able to dodge while stunned would ruin mirage cloak so hard

[Levetty.1279]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

> > >

> > > Nevermind that with either IH or Dune Cloak you still don't have to think and can just brainlessly mash dodge whenever you like?

> > >

> > > It's kind of pointless having a stunbreak on dodge if the incentive is not to use it most of the time. Sure I like the skill behind choosing whether to break a stun or not, but given how mirage dodge works as standard (without EM) it is currently a downgrade aside from the condi cleanse.

> > >

> > > As I said, if they're keeping this then they really need to make mirage dodge not function at all when cced unless you trait EM, otherwise it's contradictory.

> >

> > Can we not ruin Mirage Cloak please?

> >

> > I know I have Chrono now for what I do but I would still like Mirage as an option to change it up every so often.

>

> Because not being able to dodge while stunned would ruin mirage cloak so hard

 

Glad you agree.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

> > > >

> > > > Nevermind that with either IH or Dune Cloak you still don't have to think and can just brainlessly mash dodge whenever you like?

> > > >

> > > > It's kind of pointless having a stunbreak on dodge if the incentive is not to use it most of the time. Sure I like the skill behind choosing whether to break a stun or not, but given how mirage dodge works as standard (without EM) it is currently a downgrade aside from the condi cleanse.

> > > >

> > > > As I said, if they're keeping this then they really need to make mirage dodge not function at all when cced unless you trait EM, otherwise it's contradictory.

> > >

> > > Can we not ruin Mirage Cloak please?

> > >

> > > I know I have Chrono now for what I do but I would still like Mirage as an option to change it up every so often.

> >

> > Because not being able to dodge while stunned would ruin mirage cloak so hard

>

> Glad you agree.

 

Guess I have to add the sarcasm tag to my other comment.

 

Mirage cloak would still be a very strong dodge even if we weren't allowed to dodge during a stun. We can use it while stomping. We can use it during casting any skill we want, with IH we have lots of interrupt spam and movement out of mirage cloak. It would still be a very strong dodge, and you damn well know it

[ZeteCommander.4937]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> Tip for anyone still wanting to use EM for the condi clear - **it's better to wait** for cc effects to wear off before dodging rather than breaking cc, unless it's really long duration and you need to move asap.

>

> I would find that hilarious if it wasn't so stupid. xD

>

> Edit - if they're not going to change this then they really need to prevent mirage dodge from working at all when cced, unless you have EM traited, otherwise this trait is ridiculous just for the sake of accessing more condi cleanse.

 

No EM diversion mes will be more crazy

[ZeteCommander.4937]

Let them think it's a victory

[Rikis.3984]

They should make Speed of Sand baseline, incorporate it into Mirage Cloak itself and then in that minor move the condi cleanse from EM.

[Alveen.7239]

I don't know much about condi mes, but this 1 trait gives power mirage far too much utility for the amount of damage it can output. I think the change is good and will push people to actually try the other GM options.

 

 

[Eramonster.2718]

Don't be fixated and not exploring other builds. EM is overpowered with certain trait combo before the 3sec was implemented.

[Mordeus.1234]

It screws over my current WvW build that used Elusive Mind as my only source of stunbreak outside of a 30 sec Blink and Signet of Midnight which I use to trigger a clone, not to stunbreak. Although I admit my build was kinda obscure, it went overkill with clone generation by using all the clone traits from Duelling and Illusions. Probably not the best build to use as it didn't really make use of shatters, magic mirrors or ambushes but it was fun as a support by flooding the area with clones to wear down the enemy by defensively using stealth to hide while they were overwhelmed by the number of targets.

 

I mainly used Elusive Mind as a quick way to run away leaving my clones behind, so the added exhaustion ruins my escape mobility. I'm going to have to rethink things and move towards an Infinite Horizon build based around Ambushes, which I'm not too upset about because it's probably more reliable. Would have preferred to have the Elusive Mind exhaustion activate only if an Ambush follow up attack occurs, because being hit by a stun and then suffering the endurance drain while running away as an WvW roamer/scout hurts.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

 

The problem is more in how much of trap trait this is now. It actually makes you **worse** at CC- and condition-avoidance than if you wouldn't take it.

Considering the alternatives actually make your character *stronger* (crazy thing that!), it's just a no-brainer. Don't take it. If you dodge during CC, you end up eating **more** CC and **more** conditions overall, so even the condi-cleanse is rubbish. And if you don't dodge during CC, you nerfed yourself - with either of the other traits you could have, to avoid the burst.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

>

> The problem is more in how much of trap trait this is now. It actually makes you **worse** at CC- and condition-avoidance than if you wouldn't take it.

> Considering the alternatives actually make your character *stronger* (crazy thing that!), it's just a no-brainer. Don't take it. If you dodge during CC, you end up eating **more** CC and **more** conditions overall, so even the condi-cleanse is rubbish. And if you don't dodge during CC, you nerfed yourself - with either of the other traits you could have, to avoid the burst.

 

I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > Well i mean you only have to actually try to doge when you really need to now rather than just consistently splatter it. Its another skill challenge right.. mesmer takes most skill to master right... mastering endurance management should be a peace of cake right... surely you didnt need to be invulnerable while attacking for a solid 7-10 second right?

> >

> > The problem is more in how much of trap trait this is now. It actually makes you **worse** at CC- and condition-avoidance than if you wouldn't take it.

> > Considering the alternatives actually make your character *stronger* (crazy thing that!), it's just a no-brainer. Don't take it. If you dodge during CC, you end up eating **more** CC and **more** conditions overall, so even the condi-cleanse is rubbish. And if you don't dodge during CC, you nerfed yourself - with either of the other traits you could have, to avoid the burst.

>

> I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

 

Which is why we never wanted EM to start with because the dodge was already strong enough. We also told Anet that the elite spec was poorly designed and shouldn’t be released in its current state. But they did anyway. You can’t design a spec around the name and art, you have to figure out what you want to accomplish and they didn’t do it.

So now we have a trait line that revolves around being able to attack while dodging. That’s the entire premise of the spec. Without changing or nerfing the spec into uselessness Mirage won’t be fair.

[Chiaroscuro.7042]

I enjoyed Mirage when it came out with PoF. Then you got the changes to confusion - as someone playing mostly pve and only a bit of wvw, that muddled up the whole spec and its identity for me. What was it supposed to be about now? Ah yes. Fancy dodges. So I started trying to navigate around traits and skills having to do with confusion in pve, left a bit of a bad taste for me, but I adjusted. Now, Elusive Mind... sure, if the majority of players considered it overpowered, balance it, seems fair. Only... the 'balancing' aspect so far has looked as follows: Confusion useless in pve? Axe mesmers crying? Okay, remove confusion from axe. Elusive Mind overpowered in pvp/ wvw? Okay, make it so debilitating that it's undesirable to use altogether. In all game modes (why in pve as well?). I still have fun with Mirage's mobility, but at this point, as taking the spec becomes more and more a matter of 'don't take this trait, don't take this skill, they're useless now, find something else', 'm starting to wonder why I bother. Core Mes and Chrono seem to offer more actual choices in the traitlines and fewer cases of 'let's take the only thing that makes any sense at this point'.

[shippage.1983]

This is like one of the few ways to counterplay Mirage. As a mirage main, it really doesn't affect me except I can get ganked pretty damn hard if I'm focused in a fight, or being +1'd by thief. But that's also not as bad anymore after thief nerfs. Mirage still is looking like it's going to be god-tier of this patch.

 

I had two players focus CC me to completely shut me down, which even then I still had options to blink away or stunbreak with my ulitities or even evade with Distortion. There are still plenty of options.

[DeceiverX.8361]

There's no balanced way for EM to even really exist with MC. And that's multi-faceted.

 

MC as it is makes the mirage extremely forgiving because it pretty much makes setting up CC to combo into a skill in order to punish it literally pointless or impossible half the time. EM being a stunbreak with perma-vigor just allows instant retaliation on top of this with no realistic way to actually counterplay the mirage via aggression.

 

Even if they removed the ability to dodge while CC'ed, EM as it was would still pretty much break the class again.

 

The whole thing is just a demonstration of how horrible ANet has gotten at class/ability design in the competitive context.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> There's no balanced way for EM to even really exist with MC. And that's multi-faceted.

>

> MC as it is makes the mirage extremely forgiving because it pretty much makes setting up CC to combo into a skill in order to punish it literally pointless or impossible half the time. EM being a stunbreak with perma-vigor just allows instant retaliation on top of this with no realistic way to actually counterplay the mirage via aggression.

>

> Even if they removed the ability to dodge while CC'ed, EM as it was would still pretty much break the class again.

>

> The whole thing is just a demonstration of how horrible ANet has gotten at class/ability design in the competitive context.

 

Yeah which is why we all wanted it changed before it came out. We knew it would be an issue and why exhaustion isn’t a fix.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

 

I am perplexed by how you clearly didn't read what I wrote, and I even added bold parts to make it clear I'm not talking about whether old EM was too strong. It's PvP stuff, I couldn't care any less if I tried, even if I were paid to do so. Reached the limit.

 

However, and again, as said before, EM is now a "trap trait". It's in an - AFAIK - unique spot where even ignoring the alternative picks, it's not a trait you want to select. You're better off without it. Many players will not know this. How is that good game design? Unlike the previous EM, which was a **balance** issue, this one is now a **design** issue, and should be pretty high up the priority list really. But then, if ANet cared, they wouldn't have used this specific nerf to it - because frankly, flat out removal would have been a much much smarter and better nerf to it.

[Kundry.1249]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

>

> I am perplexed by how you clearly didn't read what I wrote, and I even added bold parts to make it clear I'm not talking about whether old EM was too strong. It's PvP stuff, I couldn't care any less if I tried, even if I were paid to do so. Reached the limit.

>

> However, and again, as said before, EM is now a "trap trait". It's in an - AFAIK - unique spot where even ignoring the alternative picks, it's not a trait you want to select. You're better off without it. Many players will not know this. How is that good game design? Unlike the previous EM, which was a **balance** issue, this one is now a **design** issue, and should be pretty high up the priority list really. But then, if ANet cared, they wouldn't have used this specific nerf to it - because frankly, flat out removal would have been a much much smarter and better nerf to it.

 

It's only a trap trait if you use it improperly. Helseth and Frostball are saying it's still OP.

[climhazzard.5897]

So I took like 5 years off from this game, and have recently picked it up and have been enjoying my Mesmer. So I'm basically a newb, but this exhaustion just seems so counter to the mirage line even to me...

 

Unless I'm wrong, there's 3 good things about mirage.

 

1- You can dodge and use abilities simultaneously, nifty new dodge animation too.

2- Ambush skills. I personally like mirage a lot because it makes sword more mobile.

3- Jaunt. There's some other skills too... I wonder if anyone uses them. Jaunt is awesome though.

 

The exhaustion debuff makes #1 completely pointless. Since I use decoy and blink I don't really need the stun removal, I would still take it if I hadn't already drilled the reflex to dodge on stun into myself... now I'm kind of on the fence about what to do. I probably have to figure out another option for condi cleanse, not sure what yet.

[flog.3485]

Honestly EM shouldn’t let you use an ambush attack after you have used it to break stun. You should trade one ambush attack for the benefit breaking stun by dodging.

 

They can keep the exhaustion mechanic if they have no intention of revising the change. However I would push the duration to 4 seconds personally.

 

Edit: I would also add a 3 seconds cooldown on the breakstun ability of EM if possible because using this benefit twice in a row is kind of OP.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Kundry.1249" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

> >

> > I am perplexed by how you clearly didn't read what I wrote, and I even added bold parts to make it clear I'm not talking about whether old EM was too strong. It's PvP stuff, I couldn't care any less if I tried, even if I were paid to do so. Reached the limit.

> >

> > However, and again, as said before, EM is now a "trap trait". It's in an - AFAIK - unique spot where even ignoring the alternative picks, it's not a trait you want to select. You're better off without it. Many players will not know this. How is that good game design? Unlike the previous EM, which was a **balance** issue, this one is now a **design** issue, and should be pretty high up the priority list really. But then, if ANet cared, they wouldn't have used this specific nerf to it - because frankly, flat out removal would have been a much much smarter and better nerf to it.

>

> It's only a trap trait if you use it improperly. Helseth and Frostball are saying it's still OP.

 

And this is exactly the problem with tacking exhaustion onto it! Why do people refuse to accept that exhaustion did nothing to fix the trait. You can still use it as a stunbreak if you _need_ to. Removing the stunbreak was the only way to address the actual issue with the trait

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

>

> I am perplexed by how you clearly didn't read what I wrote, and I even added bold parts to make it clear I'm not talking about whether old EM was too strong. It's PvP stuff, I couldn't care any less if I tried, even if I were paid to do so. Reached the limit.

>

> However, and again, as said before, EM is now a "trap trait". It's in an - AFAIK - unique spot where even ignoring the alternative picks, it's not a trait you want to select. You're better off without it. Many players will not know this. How is that good game design? Unlike the previous EM, which was a **balance** issue, this one is now a **design** issue, and should be pretty high up the priority list really. But then, if ANet cared, they wouldn't have used this specific nerf to it - because frankly, flat out removal would have been a much much smarter and better nerf to it.

 

No i didnt ignore what you wrote you just made that up into a thing to make it sound like a bigger problem than what it really is. By definition alot of traits could be considered trap traits you try to make it sound like mesmer is the only one with the issue. Its a trade off for making an already broken mechanic even more broken.

 

Its just like scourge shades be default design in not having a big shade as a base mechanic you are trapped into taking the trait for the bigger one in most situations. This is just 1 example. But all professions have design issues in their traits to say Its a trap trait is questionable at best. Perhaps you might be better off without it but it does not change the fact that mesmer overall all around are still going to be strong as heck with this 1 trait change. It wont kill the spec ore the profession (which it shouldnt). But at the same time you shouldnt feel like you needed to gain something from it either with everything else in your kits to avoid damage and break stun. Even to this date im still seeing people who are using EM which means that the trade offs for using it cant be all that bad other wise no one would be using it.

 

As far as a balance issue that was an issue the moment they chose to let people do any offensive actions they wanted to actions during I frames. If anything I would slap this at the bottom of the priority list mesmer is still in one of the best spots in the games history and other professions, rev, engi, ele, necro etc have more pressing issues in game mechanic flaws than this one tiny draw back mesmer will have for whats likely a short time anyways.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Kundry.1249" said:

> > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

> > >

> > > I am perplexed by how you clearly didn't read what I wrote, and I even added bold parts to make it clear I'm not talking about whether old EM was too strong. It's PvP stuff, I couldn't care any less if I tried, even if I were paid to do so. Reached the limit.

> > >

> > > However, and again, as said before, EM is now a "trap trait". It's in an - AFAIK - unique spot where even ignoring the alternative picks, it's not a trait you want to select. You're better off without it. Many players will not know this. How is that good game design? Unlike the previous EM, which was a **balance** issue, this one is now a **design** issue, and should be pretty high up the priority list really. But then, if ANet cared, they wouldn't have used this specific nerf to it - because frankly, flat out removal would have been a much much smarter and better nerf to it.

> >

> > It's only a trap trait if you use it improperly. Helseth and Frostball are saying it's still OP.

>

> And this is exactly the problem with tacking exhaustion onto it! Why do people refuse to accept that exhaustion did nothing to fix the trait. You can still use it as a stunbreak if you _need_ to. Removing the stunbreak was the only way to address the actual issue with the trait

 

Ideally this would have been the true fix to it. Yet people are going insane over the exhaustion which is imo not hurting or punishing enough for what it does.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Kundry.1249" said:

> > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > I dont think you realized how strong of tool being able to perform offensive actions is while dodging its a very unhealthy mechanic and was overlooked or over shadowed by scourge instant condi bomb. Trust me no non mesmer main found that trait fair o balanced in anyway.

> > > >

> > > > I am perplexed by how you clearly didn't read what I wrote, and I even added bold parts to make it clear I'm not talking about whether old EM was too strong. It's PvP stuff, I couldn't care any less if I tried, even if I were paid to do so. Reached the limit.

> > > >

> > > > However, and again, as said before, EM is now a "trap trait". It's in an - AFAIK - unique spot where even ignoring the alternative picks, it's not a trait you want to select. You're better off without it. Many players will not know this. How is that good game design? Unlike the previous EM, which was a **balance** issue, this one is now a **design** issue, and should be pretty high up the priority list really. But then, if ANet cared, they wouldn't have used this specific nerf to it - because frankly, flat out removal would have been a much much smarter and better nerf to it.

> > >

> > > It's only a trap trait if you use it improperly. Helseth and Frostball are saying it's still OP.

> >

> > And this is exactly the problem with tacking exhaustion onto it! Why do people refuse to accept that exhaustion did nothing to fix the trait. You can still use it as a stunbreak if you _need_ to. Removing the stunbreak was the only way to address the actual issue with the trait

>

> Ideally this would have been the true fix to it. Yet people are going insane over the exhaustion which is imo not hurting or punishing enough for what it does.

 

We are extremely upset over it because its a pointless nerf. It does absolutely nothing to address the only part of the trait that was overperforming. Yet it makes the trait a liability all the same. How could that ever be considered a good change?

 

We are further upset because a great many of us were telling Anet how ridiculously broken EM was before the first PoF beta weekend even, and they ignored literally all of our feedback, all of our suggestions to fix it, and then tacked this on. Something that no one asked for, something that does nothing to fix the problem itself, and something that makes the trait significantly less fun to play with. We are upset over this for good damn reasons.