Why Cant You Be Healed in Shroud

[CantoGuy.6459]

Whats the reasoning behind this anet...

[Dadnir.5038]

You can't be healed in shroud because you are in a "spectral" form. Your body is not there. If your body is not there how can it be healed?

 

I know it's a stupid reasoning but a lot of concepts behind the necromancer's mechanism's thematics are indeed stupid.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

So thats how the balance team approaches necroids... in spectral form... i get it now. No workee.

[Lahmia.2193]

Seems like a relic from the old days. Remember they had negative aspects on all the old versions of self Quickness granting skills, like Quickening Zephyr negated all healing on yourself too.

[Shirlias.8104]

Because it would be OP.

There are btw some ways to be healed in shroud though Necromancer traits.

 

What about shade influenced by effects which work on healing?

Poison = when you go in shade you have 33% less health.

 

The fact that necros have high health and a double health with shade ( which can be used more than 1 time per combat ) is balanced with the absence of vigor and invuln mostly, but also with the impossibility to be healed while in shroud ( unless you sacrifice some traits or skills, I.E. signet of suffering trait + signet of vampirism ).

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> Because it would be OP.

 

That's arguable since the necromancer don't have access to it's utility skills while in shroud. They would only receive outgoing heal from their allies. If being healed by an ally is op...

 

> There are btw some ways to be healed in shroud though Necromancer traits.

>

 

Indeed, some life siphon pass through shroud and there is a trait in reaper traitline that grant you health in shroud when you apply a boon on yourself.

 

> What about shade influenced by effects which work on healing?

> Poison = when you go in shade you have 33% less health.

>

 

I guess you are talking about "barrier" and not shades. You don't "go in shade". (Maybe we've got a langage barrier here ;) )

 

> The fact that necros have high health and a double health with shade ( which can be used more than 1 time per combat ) is balanced with the absence of vigor and invuln mostly, but also with the impossibility to be healed while in shroud ( unless you sacrifice some traits or skills, I.E. signet of suffering trait + signet of vampirism ).

 

Some extra health point allow you to only mitigate a set amount of damage, quatitatively it's way easier to balance than dodge or invulnerability or aegis that allow you to mitigate unlimited amount of damage. Another thing that you don't take into account is the fact that dodge, aegis and part of the invuln skills leave you unphazed by hard CC.

 

The numerous disadvantage of the shroud make it very difficult to say with certainty that being healed while in shroud would be OP. You always have to take into account that:

- The shroud is a finite amount of mitigation, making it way inferior to dodge/aegis/invuln.

- The shroud do not let you block hard CC.

- The shroud bleed continuously, which make it less performant as a mitigation tool the longer you stay in.

- Don't have access to utility skills.

 

Thought, You got a point with your:

> Poison = when you go in shade you have 33% less health.

 

Let's make it like this, reaper shroud now have the same natural LF bleed than death shroud but when affected by poison, both bleed for 33% more, effectively reducing the mitigation time. And let's be crazy, all invuln last 33% less when affected by poison to make things even.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > Because it would be OP.

>

> That's arguable since the necromancer don't have access to it's utility skills while in shroud. They would only receive outgoing heal from their allies. If being healed by an ally is op...

>

> > There are btw some ways to be healed in shroud though Necromancer traits.

> >

>

> Indeed, some life siphon pass through shroud and there is a trait in reaper traitline that grant you health in shroud when you apply a boon on yourself.

>

> > What about shade influenced by effects which work on healing?

> > Poison = when you go in shade you have 33% less health.

> >

>

> I guess you are talking about "barrier" and not shades. You don't "go in shade". (Maybe we've got a langage barrier here ;) )

>

> > The fact that necros have high health and a double health with shade ( which can be used more than 1 time per combat ) is balanced with the absence of vigor and invuln mostly, but also with the impossibility to be healed while in shroud ( unless you sacrifice some traits or skills, I.E. signet of suffering trait + signet of vampirism ).

>

> Some extra health point allow you to only mitigate a set amount of damage, quatitatively it's way easier to balance than dodge or invulnerability or aegis that allow you to mitigate unlimited amount of damage. Another thing that you don't take into account is the fact that dodge, aegis and part of the invuln skills leave you unphazed by hard CC.

>

> The numerous disadvantage of the shroud make it very difficult to say with certainty that being healed while in shroud would be OP. You always have to take into account that:

> - The shroud is a finite amount of mitigation, making it way inferior to dodge/aegis/invuln.

> - The shroud do not let you block hard CC.

> - The shroud bleed continuously, which make it less performant as a mitigation tool the longer you stay in.

> - Don't have access to utility skills.

>

> Thought, You got a point with your:

> > Poison = when you go in shade you have 33% less health.

>

> Let's make it like this, reaper shroud now have the same natural LF bleed than death shroud but when affected by poison, both bleed for 33% more, effectively reducing the mitigation time. And let's be crazy, all invuln last 33% less when affected by poison to make things even.

 

All of this ^

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > Because it would be OP.

>

> That's arguable since the necromancer don't have access to it's utility skills while in shroud. They would only receive outgoing heal from their allies. If being healed by an ally is op...

No it's not arguable. It's overpowered in every team scenario. Old Blighter's Boon was basically a heal by allies in shroud (receive 5 boons = 1k heal - receive a stack of 10 Might from an ally = 2k heal - standing next to a boon spam Herald = constant absurd amount of regeneration) and it made Reapers nearly unkillable.

 

I don't need to mention that an ally's AOE healing skill is much stronger than Blighter's Boon has ever been, because it's usually a burst heal.

 

All Blood Magic traits (including Life from Death and Transfusion) and life steal sigils should heal a Necro in Shroud, but not allies.

[Dadnir.5038]

So other professions being healed while mitigating damage is ok but necro being heaaled while mitigating damage is op? What kind of logic is this? Blood magic traits should be selfish? Do the necromancer's support suddenly gain a massive buff? I mean... A 1200% buff...

 

Let stop the sarcasm a bit, I find ok that someone that heal you can do it, however I don't think it's ok that someone that only buff you via boons heal you indirectly. The shroud is a mechanism that lock you out of way to many things, the initial design of the necromancer gave him large amount of health point so that he could take conditions on him and send them back, the shroud and it's "2nd health pool" was here to support this idea, you could even say that the underwater shroud is a live example of this idea. Being locked out of your allies support don't support this design idea.

[Zero.3871]

imagine if warrior cant get heal if he is blocking or invul...

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> Seems like a relic from the old days. Remember they had negative aspects on all the old versions of self Quickness granting skills, like Quickening Zephyr negated all healing on yourself too.

 

Ahh the good old days, when major skills actually had consequences and every cast required a cost-benefit analysis which made skilled play actually get rewarded.

 

These days you just spam off cooldown and things die.

[Borvis.2486]

This has been a frequent and constant discussion since the early days. Death shroud, as it stands, is a very difficult ability to balance around. It basically gives necromancers two healthbars, and we're already one of the highest-health classes in game(although we have some of the least protections). Allowing necromancers to be healed DURING shroud would make us practically unkillable in a lot of situations, particularly in group combat where we're receiving heals from others as well as from ourselves.

 

I don't foresee this changing unless they make drastic alterations to how death shroud/reaper shroud works.

[flow.6043]

Ah... the good ol' "IT WOULD BE OP!!!" arguments.

I can't believe this ignorant mentality still exists in 2018 when the complete opposite has been reasonably argued in hundreds of forum threads since 2012.

 

The only reason today why some healing is blocked in Shrouds is because Anet doesn't want to divert a part of their resources from things that are higher on their agenda.

Thematically or balance wise, there's absolutely no reason at all why any healing should've been blocked by Shrouds in the first place. Also, scourges can get all sources of healing through Desert Shroud.

I don't want to go in any more detail because, like I said, there were hundreds of discussions on this topic already and it's getting tiring and frustrating to argue against the same stupidity over and over.

We're stuck with Death and Reaper's Shroud as they are because that's what they have grown into historically. Anyone who tells you it's because of balance doesn't know what they're talking about.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"flow.6043" said:

> Ah... the good ol' "IT WOULD BE OP!!!" arguments.

> I can't believe this ignorant mentality still exists in 2018 when the complete opposite has been reasonably argued in hundreds of forum threads since 2012.

>

> The only reason today why some healing is blocked in Shrouds is because Anet doesn't want to divert a part of their resources from things that are higher on their agenda.

> Thematically or balance wise, there's absolutely no reason at all why any healing should've been blocked by Shrouds in the first place. Also, scourges can get all sources of healing through Desert Shroud.

> I don't want to go in any more detail because, like I said, there were hundreds of discussions on this topic already and it's getting tiring and frustrating to argue against the same stupidity over and over.

> We're stuck with Death and Reaper's Shroud as they are because that's what they have grown into historically. Anyone who tells you it's because of balance doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

If you're going to use scourge as a benchmark for where the necro should be in PvP or WvW then you're absolutely never going to get core/reaper shroud buffed lmao.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"flow.6043" said:

> > Ah... the good ol' "IT WOULD BE OP!!!" arguments.

> > I can't believe this ignorant mentality still exists in 2018 when the complete opposite has been reasonably argued in hundreds of forum threads since 2012.

> >

> > The only reason today why some healing is blocked in Shrouds is because Anet doesn't want to divert a part of their resources from things that are higher on their agenda.

> > Thematically or balance wise, there's absolutely no reason at all why any healing should've been blocked by Shrouds in the first place. Also, scourges can get all sources of healing through Desert Shroud.

> > I don't want to go in any more detail because, like I said, there were hundreds of discussions on this topic already and it's getting tiring and frustrating to argue against the same stupidity over and over.

> > We're stuck with Death and Reaper's Shroud as they are because that's what they have grown into historically. Anyone who tells you it's because of balance doesn't know what they're talking about.

>

> If you're going to use scourge as a benchmark for where the necro should be in PvP or WvW then you're absolutely never going to get core/reaper shroud buffed lmao.

 

its more likely that the opposite will happen scourge will get knocked down to core and reaper levels with enough time.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"flow.6043" said:

> > > Ah... the good ol' "IT WOULD BE OP!!!" arguments.

> > > I can't believe this ignorant mentality still exists in 2018 when the complete opposite has been reasonably argued in hundreds of forum threads since 2012.

> > >

> > > The only reason today why some healing is blocked in Shrouds is because Anet doesn't want to divert a part of their resources from things that are higher on their agenda.

> > > Thematically or balance wise, there's absolutely no reason at all why any healing should've been blocked by Shrouds in the first place. Also, scourges can get all sources of healing through Desert Shroud.

> > > I don't want to go in any more detail because, like I said, there were hundreds of discussions on this topic already and it's getting tiring and frustrating to argue against the same stupidity over and over.

> > > We're stuck with Death and Reaper's Shroud as they are because that's what they have grown into historically. Anyone who tells you it's because of balance doesn't know what they're talking about.

> >

> > If you're going to use scourge as a benchmark for where the necro should be in PvP or WvW then you're absolutely never going to get core/reaper shroud buffed lmao.

>

> its more likely that the opposite will happen scourge will get knocked down to core and reaper levels with enough time.

 

Doubtful. Not until next expansion. Scourge is pretty much overpowered by design.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > Seems like a relic from the old days. Remember they had negative aspects on all the old versions of self Quickness granting skills, like Quickening Zephyr negated all healing on yourself too.

>

> Ahh the good old days, when major skills actually had consequences and every cast required a cost-benefit analysis which made skilled play actually get rewarded.

>

> These days you just spam off cooldown and things die.

 

It really has not changed at all whatsoever. The only difference is that TTK has gone from 5s to 1.5s due to damage inflation and faster cast times.

[DeceiverX.8361]

What? Cooldowns have been reduced, things have no risk or penalties for huge rewards, boon access has increased tremendously, and skills just outright do more than before. TTK on mesmer/necro/thief/warrior haven't changed at all, either.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> What? Cooldowns have been reduced, things have no risk or penalties for huge rewards, boon access has increased tremendously, and skills just outright do more than before. TTK on mesmer/necro/thief/warrior haven't changed at all, either.

 

Indeed, I'd even add elementalist on the list (since the fresh air burst didn't change at all over time). I wonder if players feel that way because PvP is transitioning from a condi meta to a power meta...

[flow.6043]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"flow.6043" said:

> > Ah... the good ol' "IT WOULD BE OP!!!" arguments.

> > I can't believe this ignorant mentality still exists in 2018 when the complete opposite has been reasonably argued in hundreds of forum threads since 2012.

> >

> > The only reason today why some healing is blocked in Shrouds is because Anet doesn't want to divert a part of their resources from things that are higher on their agenda.

> > Thematically or balance wise, there's absolutely no reason at all why any healing should've been blocked by Shrouds in the first place. Also, scourges can get all sources of healing through Desert Shroud.

> > I don't want to go in any more detail because, like I said, there were hundreds of discussions on this topic already and it's getting tiring and frustrating to argue against the same stupidity over and over.

> > We're stuck with Death and Reaper's Shroud as they are because that's what they have grown into historically. Anyone who tells you it's because of balance doesn't know what they're talking about.

>

> If you're going to use scourge as a benchmark for where the necro should be in PvP or WvW then you're absolutely never going to get core/reaper shroud buffed lmao.

 

That argument only makes sense if you think scourge is weaker than core/reaper...?

 

Anyway, I wasn't refering to it as benchmark. We have one Shroud that isn't a transformation and therefore allows the necro to be healed while in it. That's how all Shrouds should work, for consistency's sake and because it makes sense as a defensive mechanic, and it should be fixed regardless of balance. Then, if it's too strong (which it wouldn't be) you can tweak things like the size of the life force pool, removing the 50% damage reduction bug, life force degeneration etc, but having any source or amount of healing blocked by Shroud is just nonsense.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> Doubtful. Not until next expansion. Scourge is pretty much overpowered by design.

 

you say that but people said the same thing about reaper in its early days. That said reaper was easier to fix but got rudely under throttled and left behind in QoL updates untill 2 years later.

Scourge will at some point reach reapers levels even if it takes a bit longer due to its design.

 

I wouldnt say scourge is op by design also while its design is hard to get around because its got so much zone control thats not to say its that STRONG

Warrior is strong at its base

Guardian is strong at its base

Mesmer is strong. at its base

 

Scourge is currently strong but necro at its base is ok-ish.

Scourge is kind of its own profession right now which is a design problem but a strength to it at the same time.

 

Scourge is hitting the minimum to be considered strong at best and thats usually only from a big battle wvw standpoint.

I'm willing to be by fall of 2018 scourge will be at point where its only used in zergs strictly unless anet chooses fix other issues with core necro lines or heavly rework its shade mechanics.

 

Scourge will always be seen as too strong till the point its far under tuned and the only way it will be strong is adding more scourges which does not really solve the problem to seeing less of them in the game modes where people dislike them the most.

 

[HardRider.2980]

They say it's OP even though other classes have the ability to be healed through their own invul type skills.

I either want our ults when in shroud or be able to be healed from external sources while in shroud..

[Swagg.9236]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> What? Cooldowns have been reduced, things have no risk or penalties for huge rewards, boon access has increased tremendously, and skills just outright do more than before. TTK on mesmer/necro/thief/warrior haven't changed at all, either.

 

Yes, but the ways in which skills deal damage have not changed in any way, and even at launch, the name if the game was always "attack when there is no or minimal risk to yourself." That hasn't changed. Even in the game has made it easier to negate risk, the fundamentals haven't changed since launch. GW2 was never a skillful or risky game to play.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > What? Cooldowns have been reduced, things have no risk or penalties for huge rewards, boon access has increased tremendously, and skills just outright do more than before. TTK on mesmer/necro/thief/warrior haven't changed at all, either.

>

> Yes, but the ways in which skills deal damage have not changed in any way, and even at launch, the name if the game was always "attack when there is no or minimal risk to yourself." That hasn't changed. Even in the game has made it easier to negate risk, the fundamentals haven't changed since launch. GW2 was never a skillful or risky game to play.

 

Thats debaitable dependin on what stats you ran and profession you play. Each profession has risk that come up in one way or another. for example.

Stuck to close combat

Stuck to long range combat

Low base hp.

More complexed rotations in general.

 

Every play style has risk with it. Never taking risk usually means you are playing super passive which anet is trying to currently remove some of from pvp.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > Doubtful. Not until next expansion. Scourge is pretty much overpowered by design.

>

> you say that but people said the same thing about reaper in its early days. That said reaper was easier to fix but got rudely under throttled and left behind in QoL updates untill 2 years later.

> Scourge will at some point reach reapers levels even if it takes a bit longer due to its design.

>

> I wouldnt say scourge is op by design also while its design is hard to get around because its got so much zone control thats not to say its that STRONG

> Warrior is strong at its base

> Guardian is strong at its base

> Mesmer is strong. at its base

>

> Scourge is currently strong but necro at its base is ok-ish.

> Scourge is kind of its own profession right now which is a design problem but a strength to it at the same time.

>

> Scourge is hitting the minimum to be considered strong at best and thats usually only from a big battle wvw standpoint.

> I'm willing to be by fall of 2018 scourge will be at point where its only used in zergs strictly unless anet chooses fix other issues with core necro lines or heavly rework its shade mechanics.

>

> Scourge will always be seen as too strong till the point its far under tuned and the only way it will be strong is adding more scourges which does not really solve the problem to seeing less of them in the game modes where people dislike them the most.

>

 

If the only solution to make it feel balanced is to make it under-tuned, then the design itself is overpowered (not numbers or strict implementation), which is exactly what I said.