Sarrs.4831 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > So it would make sense to go to Hoelbrak, have the commander and Braham fight it out, the commander wins, and it's decided to follow the Commander's plan. Who would disagree with the results of a good and fair brawl? Do Norn actually make decisions based on who can win fights? They're not Klingons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Well, you got things like [this](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_New_Challenger "this"), and [this](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Good_Fight "this"), for instance. Now, with norn it's usually a bout and nobody has to die. "We fight, whoever wins gets to decide what's what, and no hard feelings". With charr in the other hand you have a more Klingon-like approach, someone may take over a warband by fighting and killing the leader in a duel, someone who committed treason may clear their name winning or dying in a dual to the death, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNecrosanct.4028 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Arden.7480" said: > About the first part: > I am not mad at Braham, I never was, but what I think was the worst that the Commander just abandoned him, the Commander hurted him even more, because he wasn't cautious (keep talking about the Commander), but what was the worst thing ever in Season 3 was that his plot was also abandoned. I mean it happened in A Crack in the Ice and after we were only getting some small news from Taimi about Braham, that was planning something stupid. Why didn't you solve this problem back then? > > I think it would be much better to have the friend on your side, than worrying about the fake Lazarus, I think the friends don't do such things, and the Commander proved he doesn't really care about the ones that he's been working with for years- since Season 1. And the Commander just said: Oh he doesn't want me near, so let him do what he wants.--- We didn't just leave Braham, but also Rox. We sent her to care of Braham and make her make the dirtiest job, because we were too busy because of some potions. > > I don't know you meant that to happen or not, but leaving the Braham's plot so suddenly was a bit weird. Why couldn't you just solve this problem 1 or 2 episodes later? And you waited until the hatress of some of the community was rising, and rising, and rising each episode. > > Season 1&2 Braham was so great. *_* > > "I like you because you are big and dumb"~Taimi- the finale of Season 1. The cutest moment ever.... Nostalgia... > Except we didn't leave him. Braham left himself. He pushed the commander away, slammed the door in his face, so to speak. So we sent Rox with him to keep an eye on him, hoping he wouldn't get himself into too much trouble and eventually find his way again. Braham came off to me as someone who wouldn't let the commander in, no matter what he did or said. We asked him to join our guild, Dragon's Watch, but he refused and even went so far as to interpret it as a lack of respect for his deceased mother. He "formed his own guild", Destiny's Edge, to honor Eir's memory. Never mind that one of the original DE members is in Dragon's Watch and did not take Braham's side in this debacle, Braham feels he is more entitled to DE because of his mother (he should be glad Rytlock didn't give him any flack over this, because he would be perfectly in his right to do so). At some point you have to let people find their own way again. It's not possible to help them with everything. Grief takes time (a different amount of time for everyone), expresses itself in as many ways as there are people in the world and can turn nice and good people into perfectly dislikeable characters. Saying we were too busy for BRaham because we were working on some potion is one of the most reductive things I've ever read. You know very well that we weren't just working on some potion, there was a bigger concern. But on any journey you come across obstacles and have to find a workaround or any way to deal with it, hence the potion. The commander recognized the fact he couldn't do any good in Braham's eyes at that point in time. And perhaps the commander himself even feels some sort of responsibility for Eir's death. If I were a leader on a mission and one of the people I was supposed to rescue died, I know I would feel responsible too. From that point of view you don't just go and tell off the son of the one who died that he should grow up and deal with it. That would unequivocally make the commander the bad guy, or at the very least highly insensitive. ANet could've done more to drive this part of the story home to us players. As it is, it's left to personal interpretation what goes on in the mind's of these characters and obviously those interpretations go all over the place. From understanding perspectives like the commander's, to stubborn and insensitive perspectives like Braham's. Ironically enough the people voting for Braham to die, just because he became annoying, follow much the same behavior as Braham does in his part of the story. I'm glad to see that something is being done about that, and that Braham is no longer stuck in his grief and unable to see things from others' point of view. That's the problem with story chapters becoming available only every few months: it takes a long time to tell a character's story arc, unless you rush it. And that's not a good thing either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skullmount.1758 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Jessica Price II.9813" said: > > @"Donari.5237" said: > > Not sure if this should be a new thread, but it feels like part of the flow in this one: > > > > Would you be willing to deliver some story out of game? There's been mixed reactions to that by players, true, but short bits like Marjory's meeting with E or Taimi's lab issues prior to Embry Bay really helped flesh things out. It would be a way to give us more on (for example) Malyck and his Tree without having to use full game development resources. > > Wait and find out. :-) Any way to get more/conclusion to the Momo story that was being done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Jessica Price II.9813" said: > They're not equals. Braham's what, 22? Your brain isn't even out of adolescence until you're 25ish. The Commander's an adult. The difference isn't as big as you may think. If Commander is a Norn, they had their "rite of passage" (kind of), marking their entry into adulthood at the start of personal story. Which was maybe year before? If the Commander is a Sylvari, they're 1 year old, and while, thanks to the Dream, they aren't children mentally, their actual world experience is even _smaller_ (if you look at most sylvari interactions in the game you can see they are usually very childish and naive in their personality). Can't say about other races, but Asuras, at least, seem to have talking back and arrogance as their racial traits, even as kids. And Charr arent exactly mild-mannered either. > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > I'm kinda talking about earlier interactions right after Eir's death. Braham really talked down to my Norn about how I was disrespecting her memory. In actuality this probably should've resorted in a slap across the face, either literal or proverbial, from my character since as a Norn you have a very special relationship with Eir during the earlier stages of your personal story. > > Quite frankly, Braham would be in no position to tell another Norn off in this sitatuation. Our characters really had a closer, more intimate relationship to Eir than he has ever had at this point. > > But sadly, because the story doesn't take race into consideration much, my Norn just recoiled all confused as if he didn't understand how Norn culture works - as you would expect from the other races in this situation. It's actually more than that. Braham from the very beginning he got introduced in the LS1 never behaved like a Norn. If i didn't know his parentage (and didn't know it was impossible in the first place) i'd easily have suspected him of having a mixed (half-human) heritage. He's been a whiner in the beginning, and from the beginning was used to blaming everyone else for his own issues, so him continuing in that direction wasn't really surprising, but... it didn't really seem Norn-like at all. > @"Ashen.2907" said: > I dont want him to be humbled, or even killed off. I just dont want him around. He is a detraction from the mission. How likely, if lives depended on you, would you be to allow a tantrum prone adolescent to hang around and interfere? That too. Basically, he's not dependable at all, and i see no reason why we might want him around. Commander is not really in the business of raising kids. (Some of that could be applied to Caithe as well - we've forgiven her too fast and too easily. Personally after what she's done i'd never manage to put my trust in her again) > @"Helreginn.1894" said: So then why must Braham be a typical norn? He doesn't have to be, but he shouldn't be _less_. And he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helreginn.1894 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Helreginn.1894" said: > So then why must Braham be a typical norn? > He doesn't have to be, but he shouldn't be _less_. And he is. > Not sure how you're quantifying that but I guess it's a difference of opinion. I mean, I get that he doesn't get drunk (except Rox did mention something of the sort in the latest episode), brawl drunkenly and then pass out at moots? What is there to Norn culture that he's not adhering to? I'm genuinely curious. They are all solo fighters who wish to forge their legend etc. right, and that's exactly what he was trying to do by hunting down Jormag by his lonesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Helreginn.1894" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Helreginn.1894" said: > > So then why must Braham be a typical norn? > > He doesn't have to be, but he shouldn't be _less_. And he is. > > > Not sure how you're quantifying that but I guess it's a difference of opinion. I mean, I get that he doesn't get drunk (except Rox did mention something of the sort in the latest episode), brawl drunkenly and then pass out at moots? What is there to Norn culture that he's not adhering to? I'm genuinely curious. They are all solo fighters who wish to forge their legend etc. right, and that's exactly what he was trying to do by hunting down Jormag by his lonesome. He isn't really hunting Jormag by his lonesome (he took a Norn army for this). He doesn't seem to care about forging his legend either (remember, when we saw him first he was a completely unheroic homestead manager, completely content to live there in peace, whose strongest emotion was sulking at his mother for not loving him enough). He was trying to get everyone killed because he couldn't cope with his grief and self-worth issues. Which he had a lot - his whole character was evolving around those issues. Basically, when i imagine a Norn, a whiney 16 years old (i know he's older, but the way he acts doesn't show that at all) that is used to blame everyone else for his own issues that has not a single heroic bone in his body is one of the last things in my mind. And, what is more important, i don't see how this makes the story better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojimaru.4980 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > So it would make sense to go to Hoelbrak, have the commander and Braham fight it out, the commander wins, and it's decided to follow the Commander's plan. Who would disagree with the results of a good and fair brawl? > > Do Norn actually make decisions based on who can win fights? They're not Klingons. They actually do sometimes. Norn have a [ritual](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isvar "ritual") where if one party wrongs another and wishes to seek forgiveness, they can lay a wreath at the door of the one they offended. From there, the offended party can choose to take the wreath into their home, lay an empty stein in it, break it, or ignore it entirely. If wreath is broken, the two parties have to fight until only one is left standing, and all is forgiven no matter who wins. In fact, I hope Anet references that ritual when it comes time for Braham to actually try to reconcile with the Commander. I like when Anet remembers that Norn aren't just bigger humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I personally really don't mind Brahams story arc so far. If not actually quite like it. It seems like he's grieving, we don't know what to do with that at first, he causes trouble, we have to deal with him, we kind of do want him to be our ally because we need people who we can depend on. And simply killing him off or just ignoring him entirely seems like an easy cop out for any story. Yeah it distracts from the main story, because he is also our shit to deal with. I find it refreshing that we're not just dumping and ignoring him, or just killing him off or whichever other rather shallow suggestions from the forums here. I don't understand why the story only gets better by only colouring within the lines of that story either. We have this dispute going on with Braham, we were good friends at some point, maybe still are and at this point we're sort of starting to make up for that. It seems quite natural to me that even as the commander we do care, even if we don't always have time to care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palador.2170 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (Edit: That was a rant, not a question. Let me try that again.) Haven't you had Braham drift a bit too far from the teachings of Wolf? It's the Spirit of the Wild he's supposed to follow, after all. And yet, if you look at the lessons Eir took from wolf and what she did, and now at what Braham is doing, it's clear he's going the other way. Can we start to see the more spiritual side of the norn again? Heck, people complain that we always go to Taimi for answers, wouldn't it be nice to get some answers from the spirits for a change? See Braham as more shaman than meatslab? Or at least have him call a shaman in to help? Also, when Braham dismissed our concerns as unimportant, he did more than disrespect us. He disrespected everyone that's suffered and died in the war against the dragons and the conflicts surrounding them. I think a lot of players feel that, even if they didn't put it into words. After that, do you really think you can bring things back around and heal the rift to where people like him again? And have people feel it was good writing, and not just "they get along now and we're expected to like him"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keriana.9635 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > Part of the difference I saw in community response was sometimes due to whether people had known a grieving teenager (or themselves aggrieved without being able to see their way forward). Another thing that might have influenced my reaction as compared with yours is that I didn't see Braham as a teenager. 22 is young, yes, but still an adult, and he looks like an adult in the game. Also, the pc didn't do anything that I could see to provoke such an extreme reaction and for such a long time. I didn't like that the pc couldn't stick up for herself and just had to stand there and meekly take all the toxic things Braham said to her. Why would the pc want this person as a friend or take him on important missions? > @"Ashen.2907" said: > I dont want him to be humbled, or even killed off. I just dont want him around. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandiarie.7195 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Hey, Taimi also almost died so maybe that changed stuff for Braham. Maybe he noticed his anger will have to wait. A certain god is dead and right now they have to focus on finding Joko to stop bad stuff from going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomesauce.5980 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Jessica Price II.9813" said: > So he's been lashing out at the Commander. That actually seems kind of natural to me--not okay, not ethical, not right, but understandable--as does the Commander's restraint. They're not equals. Braham's what, 22? Your brain isn't even out of adolescence until you're 25ish. The Commander's an adult. I probably would have bitten my tongue, too, in that situation and, like, given him a year to finish mourning before I was like, "okay, my dude, let's talk about how you were kind of a jerk." >Anyway: I came in, read up on Braham, and that was my take. But it's clearly NOT much of the audience's take, which means that the story hasn't done its job in conveying all that. My biggest problem with this is it's simply not consistent with how grief is portrayed across Tyria, more egregiously it's not consistent with how grief is portrayed (or more specifically, not portrayed) after HoT. Throughout the Personal Story, the Living World seasons and the two expansions - a lot of death takes place but never before has grief been this over the top and obnoxious when juxtaposed with how others in similar situations are handling their grief. It's very jarring from a player PoV to be told to take Braham's grief seriously when from our positions, his loss is a drop in the bucket - even the specific moment of his grief is nothing compared to the sylvari who experienced a near genocide, have trauma from both killing and being killed by their own, the first of their race fallen (and another racial leader and also one of the original 12 - Faolain - also dead). If grief was going to be a theme in Season 3 and onward, why wasn't the broad experience of grief portrayed? It's actually incredibly important even without Braham's story. Yes there is context for how Braham is specifically dealing (or not dealing) with his loss, but what about everyone else? Sylvari players were forced to kill, with their own hands, a mentor, close friend and the first of their race. Why isn't grief over the loss of Trahearne portrayed at all close to Braham's grief over Eir? What about the sylvari survivors, how are they dealing with the number of sylvari killed? Caithe was among the first of her kind with only 11 other siblings and she just lost two of them (one she loved intimately) and we don't see that grief portrayed. How are players supposed to look at Braham's grief, even knowing the context of it, and engage with that story when so much is missing from how everyone else (including ourselves) handles their grief? You've told Braham's grief story as if it occurred in a vacuum, when it very much doesn't occur in a vacuum. It looks like the story is so focused on telling the iconic character's stories that it fails to tell Tyria's story. > I know a lot of people are like "just KILL him." That reaction's coming from two groups of people--one that's just annoyed by him and doesn't really want to have to deal with him, and one that cares deeply about story and character and recognizes that his treatment of the Commander was unfair. Can't do much for the former group, but for the latter, I think they think that will be satisfying, but there's no actual closure there. I think what they actually want is to see him humbled. And that's not meaningful unless he comes to understand the problems with what he did, and looks for ways to make meaningful restitution. I think many people feeling strong enough about anything in the story to post about it on a forum probably falls into both groups. I doubt there are many people who don't care about story and character that are spending their time complaining about story and character. What you said about wanting to humble him instead of kill him really seems to me like he's just going to escape consequences. I'm fine with a character dieing without understanding the problems of what they did. If they begin down a self destructive path which goes against wisdom (conventional or otherwise), I consider if a fulfilling story to see that character wind up dead, as long as the journey to their death is well told (and that's something that could be done with Braham). Putting the kid gloves on and touching his image up to re-position the audience on his side feels disingenuous to me. There is poetic tragedy in Braham becoming one of the legend seeking norn that goes off to take on Jormag and winds up dead, like all the norn before him that Eir sculpted in stone (it's part of why she joined Destiny's Edge in the first place). It would also subvert our expectations that Braham will eventually build a legend that rivals his mother's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Jessica Price II.9813" said: > Anyway: I came in, read up on Braham, and that was my take. But it's clearly NOT much of the audience's take, which means that the story hasn't done its job in conveying all that. > > Which makes our job going forward to try to nuance Braham, and show him thinking about his relationship with the Commander and what he _actually_ wants that relationship to be--not what feels good in the moment, not what's going to give him an outlet for his anger and his grief and his frustration at what can't be, not the Commander as a symbol of Eir's death, but what the future looks like. You nailed it right there. This ¨mourning teenager¨ aspect came out of nowhere for me personally (which was before you came in). And i think for many others. The issue is that the HoT story gave Braham already a bit of an arc that implied closure in his mourning. He took some time off the fighting to mourn, he came back with conviction to kill the dragon to avenge his mother, his interactions with Taimi showed he was mourning but that he was also in control. He even shows strength overcoming the mind games Mordy plays with him on the final story instance (if you take him with you). And the last dialog after killing the dragon also implied closure through avenging his mother´s death. And then the next time we see him is in the infamous LS3 story and the anger and frustration feels out of nowhere. That is why i am really fond of the way he is shown in this last episode. Make a bit more sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillis.9473 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > My feeling was that the Commander never sounded like they were biting their tongue; they sounded like they had no clue what to say or how to be a mentor or a leader or any of the other things that the player character had seemed to have learned in fighting Zhaitain, in bringing diverse tribes together, in choosing to part from the Pact to worry about existential threats to Tyria. > THIS!!! The most annoying thing about this subplot is my character suddenly developed a stammer during "Breaking the Ice" while dealing with Braham. They didn't hold their tongue, they FAILED at the task of talking. Braham had shown himself to be impulsive before, but here he was disrespectful and petty and my character just swallowed it, incapable of responding intelligently. Braham was putting together an expedition with a high likelihood of getting someone killed and we just shrugged. Part of the anger at Braham is that he revealed our sudden, incomprehensible incompetence. He represents the writers who decided we needed to be humiliated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Lillis.9473" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > THIS!!! The most annoying thing about this subplot is my character suddenly developed a stammer during "Breaking the Ice" while dealing with Braham. They didn't hold their tongue, they FAILED at the task of talking. Braham had shown himself to be impulsive before, but here he was disrespectful and petty and my character just swallowed it, incapable of responding intelligently. Braham was putting together an expedition with a high likelihood of getting someone killed and we just shrugged. Part of the anger at Braham is that he revealed our sudden, incomprehensible incompetence. He represents the writers who decided we needed to be humiliated. This conveys what I was trying to say even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankester.1984 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Braham fits pretty well in the mediocre story and writing of GW2 - I would actually be surprised if there was a well written character here. There were a couple of characters that were way worse than him; though the anger at this Norn is due mainly to his presence in most of the post base game story - we just can't get a break from him. The fact that ArenaNet puts an overgrown emo kid in the middle of a war party on a mission and then builds his whole environment as a family picnic with plenty of understanding, support and nurturing is equally absurd as most of the writing in the base game. No person with Braham's attitude would ever survive a moment in the harsh reality of a brutal conflict and constant life or death situations affecting whole continents and no team would ever approach such a person in the ridiculous way it is handled in the game. Brothers Grimm fairy tales are way more realistic than this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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