Kyhlo Treb Changes - Do you want this for WvW?

[Lord Of The Tree.5249]

If it's not broken don't fix it. Trebs are fine just the way they are. If you really want to fix something in wvw get rid of the ruins. Overall they are a waste.

[Svarty.8019]

So we could place a trebuchet next to a keep wall, for example, and pull the camera way up high to see where the enemy are inside and what siege they have set up?

[Djamonja.6453]

> @"Malfrador.3615" said:

> The benefit from using a treb currently is that you can shoot above obstacles like hills and that its possible to shoot even further using an elevated position. Ground targeting would remove this two benefits, making them more useless.

 

I'm sure the shot will still arc just as it currently does, so it would still go over obstacles like hills. You would just ground target where you wanted to hit and then it would shoot the treb at that much power to hit there.

 

I'd have to try it to see if I liked it better -- one thing I think is worth considering is that it would let someone see over a wall quite well and see all the interior siege and spot groups/zergs hiding behind a wall, etc. Harder to spring a trap maybe? I'd be OK with that if it made trebbing a less annoying though.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> So we could place a trebuchet next to a keep wall, for example, and pull the camera way up high to see where the enemy are inside and what siege they have set up?

 

And I could just get on my thief and place it in stealth for reconnaissance hehe. Bad idea XD

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > So we could place a trebuchet next to a keep wall, for example, and pull the camera way up high to see where the enemy are inside and what siege they have set up?

>

> And I could just get on my thief and place it in stealth for reconnaissance hehe. Bad idea XD

 

Destroying siege gives WXP and participation, and allied trebuchets have a map icon, and they are very large and can be easily seen from the distance. So they will attract the attention of enemies who want to destroy it. That and their supply cost makes it really hard to keep a trebuchet up to scout around unless it's placed within a controlled keep or tower, in which case it isn't that bad to be able to have a higher perspective and scout one's controlled territory.

[Svarty.8019]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > So we could place a trebuchet next to a keep wall, for example, and pull the camera way up high to see where the enemy are inside and what siege they have set up?

> >

> > And I could just get on my thief and place it in stealth for reconnaissance hehe. Bad idea XD

>

> Destroying siege gives WXP and participation, and allied trebuchets have a map icon, and they are very large and can be easily seen from the distance. So they will attract the attention of enemies who want to destroy it. That and their supply cost makes it really hard to keep a trebuchet up to scout around unless it's placed within a controlled keep or tower, in which case it isn't that bad to be able to have a higher perspective and scout one's controlled territory.

 

Sorry, this just sounds like you're defending the indefensible. It's a massive advantage to know what's over the wall, where the enemy are stacking up for their surprise attack or the locations of siege. This idea would put trebs on the list of siege to set up when attacking a structure, you just put a point-blank treb along with all the catapults and shield generators and it does a lot of damage as well as scouting. It's an interesting idea, but because the camera moves to an advantageous position, this is too strong. If you can think of another way to implement it then please get back in touch!

[Kunzaito.8169]

There's gonna be a lot of "Noooo~ keep this hinky, finicky mechanic because SKILL" type-responses here, because that's the kind of people who are gonna post in this forum. But those folks are ignoring that trebs (and mortars) are really irritating to use well (and particularly to learn to use) and at the same time able to be abused ridiculously for some things. So we definitely need changes, and I think this could work.

 

The biggest issue with these is being unable to quickly predict where your shots are going to hit, especially at distance. Even worse, if you're trying to hit an enemy zerg or siege far away you don't get numbers, so you lose even that minute amount of feedback. This leads to a degree of gatekeeping, which is what I expect the "NO ITS SKILL" posters really want - a way to protect a little fiefdom of superiority with a bad mechanic. Because the reality is the only way to learn the quirks of these siege is to use them in a situation that requires you to already know how to use them. Unless you are really lucky and have a small, manageable attack with someone to spot shots and give you feedback, for every objective in every map, it's really difficult to get enough experience to reliably use them.

 

On the flip side, though, it is WAY too easy for someone to just set up a treb at max range from a safe location (obviously SMC is the worst abuser but there are others) and just afk with a key jammed down to get participation or to wear down defenders. Since bubbling requires active gameplay and trebbing does not, the trebber always wins. And to the people who say that the AFKers will just change their methods; perhaps, but then they'll have to use a macro or other forbidden add-on, vs. the undetectable "wedge down key and leave" method.

 

I imagine that if the zoom was correctly done, the LOS issue would not be a factor. The treb would attempt to fire whereever you put the reticle, and if its arc is blocked by something it's blocked, just like now. The chargeup mechanic offers nothing that isn't done better with a reticle; ACs need a LOS check because of the way they fire, but since trebs are a single-trajectory projectile they can work just like now - you can fire a treb any time; whether it goes anywhere is determined by what's surrounding it.

 

So I do hope we try this. Some other QoL suggestions that should be considered either in addition to (or instead of, if this doesn't work out):

 

1. Minimap ping where shots land

2. Ability (via a trick maybe?) to place a target that allows for aiming assistance and/or training (gives some kind of feedback if you miss, clearly indicate a hit)

3. Better indicators for when you hit something - make sure you at least see numbers if you damage something, no matter how far away. Even better if we can see whether it's a guard/gate/wall/siege/whatever

 

Oh, and unrelated but can we do something about the single most useless siege skill in the game, Catapult 4? I mean it's so bad you might as well get rid of it entirely if we can't make it do something useful. All it's there for now is to make you curse when your finger accidentally hits it instead of the "turn right" or shield buttons and you waste precious time.

 

 

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

>Since bubbling requires active gameplay and trebbing does not, the trebber always wins. And to the people who say that the AFKers will just change their methods; perhaps, but then they'll have to use a macro or other forbidden add-on, vs. the undetectable "wedge down key and leave" method.

 

I don't want to derail too much, but I just wanted to mention that there's not ... ~~much~~ ANY difference between macro programs and the software that comes with many gaming Mice, and I don't see those being banned.

[Sviel.7493]

Being able to macro a treb isn't great, but it isn't a huge issue as long as it's possible to take out the treb with a reasonably sized group of people. I'm not sure that condition is met right now, though.

[Kunzaito.8169]

 

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

>

> I don't want to derail too much, but I just wanted to mention that there's not ... ~~much~~ ANY difference between macro programs and the software that comes with many gaming Mice, and I don't see those being banned.

 

That may be true, but AFAIK those programs are not allowed by the TOS either - 1 click/button press must = 1 action. If you set up anything to be automated for you without interaction it's not allowed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I've always understood the rule. Now, whether they actually *enforce* that rule is a different story, but at least in theory the change removes a mechanic that allows people to undetectibly have a huge impact on the field of play without actively participating.

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

>

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> >

> > I don't want to derail too much, but I just wanted to mention that there's not ... ~~much~~ ANY difference between macro programs and the software that comes with many gaming Mice, and I don't see those being banned.

>

> That may be true, but AFAIK those programs are not allowed by the TOS either - 1 click/button press must = 1 action. If you set up anything to be automated for you without interaction it's not allowed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I've always understood the rule. Now, whether they actually *enforce* that rule is a different story, but at least in theory the change removes a mechanic that allows people to undetectibly have a huge impact on the field of play without actively participating.

>

 

My gaming mouse is set up for on each press, one skill/action.

 

Now macro'ing keys, whether with software, built in macro keys on mice or keyboards that utilize built in software, or other programs that compete multiple tasks with one press are different.

 

The tool isn't the issue. Using it,is.

 

As a side note, at one point, and may still be, necro shouts could all be triggered by simultaneously hitting all of the action keys at once.

 

Not sure if some other skills out there can be triggered the same way on other classes.

[Gemnaid.4219]

No. I don’t want this.