Mesmer invuln/block/evade uptime needs to be toned down

[David.5974]

> @"trooper.2650" said:

> > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > Mirage needs their dodge stomp nerfed

> >

>

> Nobody says anything about scrapper gyro stomps or dare devil elite skill. It's part of the package. Live with it

 

Yep scrapper bugged function gyro. You can CC function gyro pretty easily - if not traited by final salvo. Stomp with distortion is fine - you trade off defensive cd for safe stomp (like engi elixir s)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

 

> > L O L

> > O

> > L

> Your comment is pretty much L O L. AH,passives always been an issue to kill them because he could withstand 3~ bursts and stay alive ,not to count its not hard to dodge/block it . Thief need no introduction. DH/core always been favored

 

Why on earth would I give anything more?

 

Mesmers viable builds currently contain the highest uptime of being able to chain stealth/evades/invulns/blocks in the game and if that's not good enough mirage heal applies AOE weakness for good measure.

 

And yet you guys are trying to argue it is weak to power builds. A class that has the longest lasting immunity to power damage and the longest range escape in the game...is somehow weak to power builds. This is an actual argument. That you guys are trying to make. It was actually said. It was actually and literally unironically said.

 

Here are the facts:

-The current meta build for mesmer can evade/invuln and attack at the same time for 9 seconds straight ( BF, Dist, 2s MC + Mirror )

-Can block for 3 more and gains aegis + protection during its rotation ( IR )

-Can choose to bring a stealth in between and then block + evade again for another 6 seconds as the cooldowns on two of these skills is only 12s. ( IR and BF ) Will have recovered endurance by now to have 2 more seconds of mirage cloak ( Nomads gives vigor ).

-Can Jaunt from melee and use phantasms as a wall in between all of this.

-Can just portal away and then come back to do the same thing again roughly 25~30 seconds later.

 

Just because you have absolutely no idea how to do your defensive rotation properly doesn't mean this class is weak to power builds.

 

 

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Here are the facts:

> -The current meta build for mesmer can evade/invuln and attack at the same time for 9 seconds straight ( BF, Dist, 2s MC + Mirror )

> -Can block for 3 *more* and gains aegis + protection during its rotation ( IR )

 

While I agree Mesmer is currently has the best build diversity, defense, offense, and utility at once, you can't go around saying they're able to Mirage Cloakx2, Mirror dodge and then block for 3 MORE unless you've figured out how to slot two elite specs.

 

 

[Curunen.8729]

I approve of lowering the pitch of the higher frequencies in the sound effect for mirage cloak.

 

;)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > Here are the facts:

> > -The current meta build for mesmer can evade/invuln and attack at the same time for 9 seconds straight ( BF, Dist, 2s MC + Mirror )

> > -Can block for 3 *more* and gains aegis + protection during its rotation ( IR )

>

> While I agree Mesmer is currently has the best build diversity, defense, offense, and utility at once, you can't go around saying they're able to Mirage Cloakx2, Mirror dodge and then block for 3 MORE unless you've figured out how to slot two elite specs.

>

>

 

Illusionary Riposte blocks the next attack for 2.5 seconds and automatically counters with an illusion and a short 0.5s evade. Disenchanter is running sword/sword and is meta.

 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Disenchanter_Mirage

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Illusionary Riposte blocks the next attack

 

I guess. Adding 3 seconds to active defense, no. It's more of a block next hit and 1s evade.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > Illusionary Riposte blocks the next attack

>

> I guess. Adding 3 seconds to active defense, no. It's more of a block next hit and 1s evade.

 

It blocks one attack and 1/2 second evade

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Riposte

[ezd.6359]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

>

> > > L O L

> > > O

> > > L

> > Your comment is pretty much L O L. AH,passives always been an issue to kill them because he could withstand 3~ bursts and stay alive ,not to count its not hard to dodge/block it . Thief need no introduction. DH/core always been favored

>

> Why on earth would I give anything more?

>

> Mesmers viable builds currently contain the highest uptime of being able to chain stealth/evades/invulns/blocks in the game and if that's not good enough mirage heal applies AOE weakness for good measure.

>

> And yet you guys are trying to argue it is weak to power builds. A class that has the longest lasting immunity to power damage and the longest range escape in the game...is somehow weak to power builds. This is an actual argument. That you guys are trying to make. It was actually said. It was actually and literally unironically said.

>

> Here are the facts:

> -The current meta build for mesmer can evade/invuln and attack at the same time for 9 seconds straight ( BF, Dist, 2s MC + Mirror )

> -Can block for 3 more and gains aegis + protection during its rotation ( IR )

> -Can choose to bring a stealth in between and then block + evade again for another 6 seconds as the cooldowns on two of these skills is only 12s. ( IR and BF ) Will have recovered endurance by now to have 2 more seconds of mirage cloak ( Nomads gives vigor ).

> -Can Jaunt from melee and use phantasms as a wall in between all of this.

> -Can just portal away and then come back to do the same thing again roughly 25~30 seconds later.

>

> Just because you have absolutely no idea how to do your defensive rotation properly doesn't mean this class is weak to power builds.

 

And again. When you see your enemy uses "block" ability, what are you doing? You spam your best skills, right? How about to stop and wait for 2 seconds then use your skills when block ends? This is mesmer class thingy - they punish you for mistakes!

[Cerioth.7062]

I must be broken or something, I've yet to experience issues against mesmers even after the latest mirage changes.... Been playing Soulbeast / Weaver.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > > @"trooper.2650" said:

> > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it funny that the class which is supposed to rely on confusing its enemies to defeat them has become an invuln tank? Not sure why Anet has decided to give mesmer so much invuln/block/evade. I thought after the disaster for balance that HoT release was, Anet was trying to move away from this kind of boring gameplay.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Since the game launched I stood behind the idea that block and evade should just be merged. They perform the EXACT same function, which is completely mitigation of incoming damage with the exception of condi ticks. In addition, evade doesn't have any counter play. While block has unblockable skills available to multiple classes. As it stands evade should NOT be baked on to offensive skills. Defensive skills? Absolutely! But the ability to evade and deal high damage to the opponent is out of proportion. It always been. Its just that in the recent years its become a lot worse.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Fun fact Evades have counter play but hey that’s just knowing what skills are in game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Certain skills and effects cannot be evaded, they include:

> > > > > > > > > Skills with area denial purposes: Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Dragon's Maw, Unsteady Ground, Static Field, Slick Shoes, Spectral Wall, Temporal Curtain's cripple, and others.

> > > > > > > > > The pull skill for Guardian (the chain skill of Binding Blade) and Hunter's Verdict for Dragonhunter (the chain skill of Spear of Justice) are also not able to be evaded.

> > > > > > > > > Passive effects that trigger when the enemies are attacked: Retaliation, Auras

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This doesn’t fit the narrative and will be quickly shot down using the pretext that they don’t count.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It’s almost like you’re trying to have a political discussion with far left or far right minded individual and instead of listening to logic they just... ignore it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Right, I even made a video of it. I have very little experience with mesmer and still was running 2v1s. It is broken as kitten.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The only thing this video shows is 1. Some bad people 2. Your Mes skills are not bad or above average because there is no way you can faceroll a chrono with few matches 3. Mirage can be killed. You just did it @ 4:00. Period

> > > >

> > >

> > > The video also shows that I have around 300 games played as mes over the last 5 years, I picked up what I'm doing in that video over the course of an afternoon. It's really not hard to pick up since half the skills make you invuln.

> > >

> > > That mirage got me 3:1 over that match man, I got lucky but thought it was a good clip

> >

> > Any build will obliterate potatoes **that don’t dodge a single hard hitting skill and are more concerned with standing on a point and tanking everything with stats**. I have a video of me killing a berserker and reaper in WvW on core Mesmer before either of those classes were properly toned down, doesn’t mean core Mesmer was strong just my opponents were abysmally bad and I made enough mistakes I should have died had 1 of them been anything but utter garbage, I mean Dom, duel, insp wasn’t even a great build.

> 2v1 even against bad players is a bad match up for the 1. Mesmers can still regularly win those fights due to the very forgiving nature of the class, the combination of high damage and high damage mitigation needs addressed

 

1 human vs vegetables is a no contest for the human, takes a lot of vegetables to kill a human. By this I mean half the fight the vegetables are ignoring the 1 player and attacking NPCs for no other reason than they’re spatial awareness is so low they haven’t noticed another player till they’re dead on the floor.

 

This is what your video was showing.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 - Check the evade/block/invuln uptime on the other professions

2 - Realize that some professions can get as high and some others even higher evade/block/invuln uptime than mesmer

3 - Realize the problem is with the game balance overall and not a specific profession balance

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @"trooper.2650" said:

> > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > Mirage needs their dodge stomp nerfed

> >

>

> Nobody says anything about scrapper gyro stomps or dare devil elite skill. It's part of the package. Live with it

 

Thank you. If safe stomps are to be removed, then remove all of them. Don't just target mesmers for that.

[SlimChance.6593]

ANet already took quickness stomps/rez away. Leaving a 180 second CD elite pretty much useless.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"trooper.2650" said:

> > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > Mirage needs their dodge stomp nerfed

> > >

> >

> > Nobody says anything about scrapper gyro stomps or dare devil elite skill. It's part of the package. Live with it

>

> Thank you. If safe stomps are to be removed, then remove all of them. Don't just target mesmers for that.

 

No offense - a little note;

 

Scrapper Function Gyro is bugged, it is CCable and has a bad AI. If you are somewhere that Gyro can’t reach, you can’t be stomped. And when you CC it, Scrapper can’t stomp for the rest of the game (lul).

 

Daredevil stomp isn’t safe stomp. It takes up an elite slot and they are still CCable while casting it. - It has a significantly higher cast time to stomp.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

>

> > > L O L

> > > O

> > > L

> > Your comment is pretty much L O L. AH,passives always been an issue to kill them because he could withstand 3~ bursts and stay alive ,not to count its not hard to dodge/block it . Thief need no introduction. DH/core always been favored

>

> Why on earth would I give anything more?

>

> Mesmers viable builds currently contain the highest uptime of being able to chain stealth/evades/invulns/blocks in the game and if that's not good enough mirage heal applies AOE weakness for good measure.

>

> And yet you guys are trying to argue it is weak to power builds. A class that has the longest lasting immunity to power damage and the longest range escape in the game...is somehow weak to power builds. This is an actual argument. That you guys are trying to make. It was actually said. It was actually and literally unironically said.

>

> Here are the facts:

> -The current meta build for mesmer can evade/invuln and attack at the same time for 9 seconds straight ( BF, Dist, 2s MC + Mirror )

> -Can block for 3 more and gains aegis + protection during its rotation ( IR )

> -Can choose to bring a stealth in between and then block + evade again for another 6 seconds as the cooldowns on two of these skills is only 12s. ( IR and BF ) Will have recovered endurance by now to have 2 more seconds of mirage cloak ( Nomads gives vigor ).

> -Can Jaunt from melee and use phantasms as a wall in between all of this.

> -Can just portal away and then come back to do the same thing again roughly 25~30 seconds later.

>

> Just because you have absolutely no idea how to do your defensive rotation properly doesn't mean this class is weak to power builds.

>

>

 

I don't know anyone arguing power builds, other than things that can hit through blocks, mes can soak up a decent amount of damage from obvious tells. Any mesmer having issues with holos though comes from AoE vs Illusions. Condi handily kills a lot more popular builds, I dunno what they are on about lol.

 

Regardless: BF, Dist, 2s MC is almost the same as any other class. 2 doges, 1 long c/d on mechanic or utility, 1 short on a weapon. Most mirage builds only get 1 mirror on the heal skill after a certain amount of time, which might be like the 3rd DD doge if you had to walk up to it, after a few seconds from blowing your heal. The other option for mirrors is super obvious and you shouldn't be wasting attacks on it.

 

Just looking at mediums for example

Engie has a pretty good chain able rotation to stay alive, and better healing. Vs power they have about the same amount of sustain if not more, engie just needs to be sure to get their timings right which is easy once you have any level of muscle memory for it. They don't invlun and attack so much but they either have extreme defense or extreme offense most of which can be chained together or as needed on the fly.

Rangers have more doges on sword/dagger, and the class has tons of healing, plus it's is even easier to play with better passive pressure than any class in game. Unless dead this class can out heal and mitigate anything that isn't the hardest burst, and it has more than enough cooldowns to ignore those.

Thief has access to more doges on weapon+ base kit, access to more stealth on weapons alone, gets a third doge and traits to give flat endurance to support it.

 

If your only complaint for this is that mirage can doge while attacking (which is nothing new in game) Then you should be equally aware that the only thing it covers is phantasms due to their awkward cast and how long it actually takes to hit between pushing the button and landing, maybe also a clutch doge mid auto attack and presuming a situation your ambush doesn't proc and screw you up. Most classes have safe engage while bursting including warrior, thief, guardian, rangers, even revs if they were good, and many more if we're just talking about safe disengage.

 

Aegis and IR on the specific build you are referring to is easy to counter. Just don't waste attacks and proc things like IR. Better players play around this and get much more momentum in a fight. The ending of IR buffed in recent years sure but the end is still easy to pressure or avoid.

 

No one but the one hit builds are running stealth, and it's for a grand total of 5-6 seconds, with a bad phantasm, and long cooldowns. There is not enough to reliably wait out anything other than doge which you will sometimes have to use since it's only stealth. Unlike every medium class what you assume here about mirage runs out of cooldown resources much faster.

 

Body blocking with illusions has a ton of problems one of which being that it's your resources, and anything enough of a threat either A. Wont die because of it's flighty escapable nature, or B. it's to tanky for anything less than a 3 clone stunned Mental angish + superiority complex + all shatters critting will down (and even then might still give enough room to heal up and leave you empty if the follow up jaunt doesn't finish)

 

Fighting a Mirage isn't hard, just doge shatters and if you have any decent sustain you'll be fine.

Chrono Phant spam is annoying to fight but it can easily be kited or AoE nuked.

Mirage ultimately does not have significantly more defensive options of other classes, nor evade up time if you count what has what it's kind of on par with most. If any thing, it loses out because it's core kit is pretty bad for this stuff, and a lot of the time doges are a precursor to pressure meaning they are being lost for a offensive purpose.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> No offense - a little note;

>

> Scrapper Function Gyro is bugged, it is CCable and has a bad AI. If you are somewhere that Gyro can’t reach, you can’t be stomped. And when you CC it, Scrapper can’t stomp for the rest of the game (lul).

>

> Daredevil stomp isn’t safe stomp. It takes up an elite slot and they are still CCable while casting it. - It has a significantly higher cast time to stomp.

 

Scrapper function gyro is bugged but dev has commented that they found a way to fix it. Hopefully it'll be shipped with balance patch but bringing a to-be-fixed bug up as an argument point is rather moot. Daredevil stomp will interrupt all down skill so it is unavoidable in 1v1 situation.

 

If we're really getting into nitty gritty of stomp. The whole animation takes 3.5s and there are plenty of window for interruption in 2v1 situation. If you're commenting on 1v1 then scrapper and daredevil stomp is just as safe as mesmer one.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"trooper.2650" said:

> > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > Mirage needs their dodge stomp nerfed

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nobody says anything about scrapper gyro stomps or dare devil elite skill. It's part of the package. Live with it

> >

> > Thank you. If safe stomps are to be removed, then remove all of them. Don't just target mesmers for that.

>

> No offense - a little note;

>

> Scrapper Function Gyro is bugged, it is CCable and has a bad AI. If you are somewhere that Gyro can’t reach, you can’t be stomped. And when you CC it, Scrapper can’t stomp for the rest of the game (lul).

>

> Daredevil stomp isn’t safe stomp. It takes up an elite slot and they are still CCable while casting it. - It has a significantly higher cast time to stomp.

 

You're quite desperate to claim a bug that has been acknowledged by Anet and they are actively working on a fix to as we speak in an attempt to discredit my comment. And DD elite skill is a safe stomp. That third strike is an instant death to any downed player, sure it takes some setup, but it will instantly finish that player, how is that not safe? You also conveniently forgot about elixir s on engies, which allows for safe stomps, so again I really don't know why you hinged your argument on a bug. No offense.

[trooper.2650]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"trooper.2650" said:

> > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > Mirage needs their dodge stomp nerfed

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nobody says anything about scrapper gyro stomps or dare devil elite skill. It's part of the package. Live with it

> >

> > Thank you. If safe stomps are to be removed, then remove all of them. Don't just target mesmers for that.

>

> No offense - a little note;

>

> Scrapper Function Gyro is bugged, it is CCable and has a bad AI. If you are somewhere that Gyro can’t reach, you can’t be stomped. And when you CC it, Scrapper can’t stomp for the rest of the game (lul).

>

> Daredevil stomp isn’t safe stomp. It takes up an elite slot and they are still CCable while casting it. - It has a significantly higher cast time to stomp.

 

Someone mentioned elixir S...

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > No offense - a little note;

> >

> > Scrapper Function Gyro is bugged, it is CCable and has a bad AI. If you are somewhere that Gyro can’t reach, you can’t be stomped. And when you CC it, Scrapper can’t stomp for the rest of the game (lul).

> >

> > Daredevil stomp isn’t safe stomp. It takes up an elite slot and they are still CCable while casting it. - It has a significantly higher cast time to stomp.

>

> Scrapper function gyro is bugged but dev has commented that they found a way to fix it. Hopefully it'll be shipped with balance patch but bringing a to-be-fixed bug up as an argument point is rather moot. Daredevil stomp will interrupt all down skill so it is unavoidable in 1v1 situation.

>

> If we're really getting into nitty gritty of stomp. The whole animation takes 3.5s and there are plenty of window for interruption in 2v1 situation. If you're commenting on 1v1 then scrapper and daredevil stomp is just as safe as mesmer one.

 

Cherry-picking. As always.

 

Function Gyro is finally getting fixed (hopefully). But it is still CCable, has bad AI and when it faces obstacles, you are not going to get stomped for sure.

 

In 1v1 situations almost all stomps are unavoidable so your point is moot.

 

There are of course plenty of window to interrupt, nobody’s denying that. But a competent player still can see that interrupt coming and Cloak it.

 

My point is Mesmer can stomp in 1vX situations safer than Daredevil and Scrapper. They are not in the same line. I was just pointing that out.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"trooper.2650" said:

> > > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > > Mirage needs their dodge stomp nerfed

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nobody says anything about scrapper gyro stomps or dare devil elite skill. It's part of the package. Live with it

> > >

> > > Thank you. If safe stomps are to be removed, then remove all of them. Don't just target mesmers for that.

> >

> > No offense - a little note;

> >

> > Scrapper Function Gyro is bugged, it is CCable and has a bad AI. If you are somewhere that Gyro can’t reach, you can’t be stomped. And when you CC it, Scrapper can’t stomp for the rest of the game (lul).

> >

> > Daredevil stomp isn’t safe stomp. It takes up an elite slot and they are still CCable while casting it. - It has a significantly higher cast time to stomp.

>

> You're quite desperate to claim a bug that has been acknowledged by Anet and they are actively working on a fix to as we speak in an attempt to discredit my comment. And DD elite skill is a safe stomp. That third strike is an instant death to any downed player, sure it takes some setup, but it will instantly finish that player, how is that not safe? You also conveniently forgot about elixir s on engies, which allows for safe stomps, so again I really don't know why you hinged your argument on a bug. No offense.

 

That bug was only one example of my point, I provided 4 of them.

 

1- Infamous stomp bug

2- Has bad AI, moves tooooooo slowly, sometimes stops moving and the Gyro never procs again.

3- Is CCable

4- Obstacle problems

They only said they found a fix to the stomping bug but I hope they fixed the others I’ve mentioned.

 

Daredevil Elite takes 3 seconds, well, yes it’s safer than normal stomp but not that safe. And who uses IS anyway? u.u

 

I didn’t forget, I just responded to the post where only gyro and elite are mentioned. However, can’t disagree with you on that.

[Simonoly.4352]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> 1 - Check the evade/block/invuln uptime on the other professions

> 2 - Realize that some professions can get as high and some others even higher evade/block/invuln uptime than mesmer

> 3 - Realize the problem is with the game balance overall and not a specific profession balance

>

 

Number 2 is quite correct - even on the core specs for some professions. I wonder which one of those professions will be targeted next. Any guesses?

 

[ZeteCommander.4937]

so much invuln/block/evade？lol，Please list it

[ZeteCommander.4937]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> 1 - Check the evade/block/invuln uptime on the other professions

> 2 - Realize that some professions can get as high and some others even higher evade/block/invuln uptime than mesmer

> 3 - Realize the problem is with the game balance overall and not a specific profession balance

>

The most rational answer to the whole post

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

 

> Daredevil Elite takes 3 seconds, well, yes it’s safer than normal stomp but not that safe. And who uses IS anyway? u.u

 

 

Oh!! Oh!!

 

Not only that, but _Some skills, like Guardian Push, Mistform, Ranger Daze and Thief Port_ can be casted after the launch of the daredevil stomp.

 

It is by no means a safe stomp. You have a large chance of just whiffing it because people can often cast their downskills unless they are certain professions with slow downskill casts in between your second and third flipover skills. Dont know if that's a bug or not, but people take basi even if Uppercut because of that.

 

[Kossuth.2168]

As a Rev main, I feel bad when people list classess and ignore mine :(