Thief....

[Xtinct.7031]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Condi Thief was untouched, in fact, P/D just got a buff with a CnD cost reduction.

 

yea bro, cus it needed it. seriously tho, who plays p/d anything anyways?

 

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > Condi Thief was untouched, in fact, P/D just got a buff with a CnD cost reduction.

> >

> > Not exactly untouched. Panic strike had its ICD increased..

>

> Panic Strike is not a Condi Thief trait, Deadly Trapper is. You will only see Panic Strike on Hybrid, but not Condi.

 

On a p/d thief Panic strike works with P #2 to add another poison. Traited with potent poison it in fact adds 2 stacks poison per use of #2. That said the increase in the cooldown of panic strike has minimal impact on such a build. P/D thief going condition is not in need of deadly trapper as if you in DE you got all the might you need via sthat spec line. While the Deadly will lower the ICD on Needle you still get more bang for the buck using #2 as a poison source .

 

when P/d traits up Panic strike every weapon skill adds conditions. 1 gets bleeds. 2 gets 5 vuln and 2 poison with immob. 3 gets 2 torment. 4 gets torment and crippled and 5 the vuln with launch into sneak attack.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > Condi Thief was untouched, in fact, P/D just got a buff with a CnD cost reduction.

> > >

> > > Not exactly untouched. Panic strike had its ICD increased..

> >

> > Panic Strike is not a Condi Thief trait, Deadly Trapper is. You will only see Panic Strike on Hybrid, but not Condi.

>

> On a p/d thief Panic strike works with P #2 to add another poison. Traited with potent poison it in fact adds 2 stacks poison per use of #2. That said the increase in the cooldown of panic strike has minimal impact on such a build. P/D thief going condition is not in need of deadly trapper as if you in DE you got all the might you need via sthat spec line. While the Deadly will lower the ICD on Needle you still get more bang for the buck using #2 as a poison source .

>

> when P/d traits up Panic strike every weapon skill adds conditions. 1 gets bleeds. 2 gets 5 vuln and 2 poison with immob. 3 gets 2 torment. 4 gets torment and crippled and 5 the vuln with launch into sneak attack.

 

Is the 2s poison really worth it? Even with 2 stacks? At the cost of 4 initiative?

A single Spider Venom is enough to apply poison pressure and Needle Trap is both offensive and defensive skill. The cost of 4 init to stack 2s of poison is a waste of initiative and a trait slot.

 

However, Panic Strike is more valuable for hybrid. I just don't see it for Condi.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > Condi Thief was untouched, in fact, P/D just got a buff with a CnD cost reduction.

> > > >

> > > > Not exactly untouched. Panic strike had its ICD increased..

> > >

> > > Panic Strike is not a Condi Thief trait, Deadly Trapper is. You will only see Panic Strike on Hybrid, but not Condi.

> >

> > On a p/d thief Panic strike works with P #2 to add another poison. Traited with potent poison it in fact adds 2 stacks poison per use of #2. That said the increase in the cooldown of panic strike has minimal impact on such a build. P/D thief going condition is not in need of deadly trapper as if you in DE you got all the might you need via sthat spec line. While the Deadly will lower the ICD on Needle you still get more bang for the buck using #2 as a poison source .

> >

> > when P/d traits up Panic strike every weapon skill adds conditions. 1 gets bleeds. 2 gets 5 vuln and 2 poison with immob. 3 gets 2 torment. 4 gets torment and crippled and 5 the vuln with launch into sneak attack.

>

> Is the 2s poison really worth it? Even with 2 stacks? At the cost of 4 initiative?

> A single Spider Venom is enough to apply poison pressure and Needle Trap is both offensive and defensive skill. The cost of 4 init to stack 2s of poison is a waste of initiative and a trait slot.

>

> However, Panic Strike is more valuable for hybrid. I just don't see it for Condi.

 

Yes it worth it, trust me on this. I have stacked 10 poison just using this skill with relative easy at range will adding imob and stacking vuln to max. When you couple this with a double steal you can easily push posion stacks to well over 20 in short order even as you get the bleeds on #1. You can STILL take Needle trap or spider venom. Traiting panic strike does not prevent this. All you get out of Deadly trapper in a p/d build is added vuln and Might stacking but in a DE build you already run at max Might stacks so the added ones from deadly trapper are redundant. Now when that panic strike kicks in you get yet another 2 stacks poison. I really see little added benefit to deadly trapper in a p/d build ( I do in d/d condition BUT d/d weaponset has no immobs)

 

Now you do get an added cooldown to traps but that just gives you needle 6 seconds earlier. I can lay down a lot more poison/vuln and Imobs from P #2 then that extra 6 seconds allow. Remember as well thtat with NEEDLE trap traited using panic strike you get an extra poison from the IMMOB. This means with potent taken your needle trap will out on 5 poison compared to 3. Even better your trappers respite gives 6 poison as compared to 4.

 

As to INI what would YOU prefer to use it for? You can certainly CND and sneak attack more BUT that is still 5 ini , can still fail and gives 5 bleeds over 2 poison. With Potent traited you are really getting 2.66 poisn and imob and the same vuln. This at range. Bang for the buck very comparable to a CND steal when costing total ini spent versus success rate.

 

 

[saerni.2584]

I’ll just chime in to generally agree with Baba.

 

The immobilize w/ poison aspect is why Panic Strike is useful in a condi build. The poison duration is probably that low because duration increases are so common. A four second poison could easily become 8+ seconds with the right gear and food and Potent Poison. I mean if the devs want to increase the duration I’ll take it it...but I can understand why they might not want to.

 

The trap I use is the trap on heal (HiS). You can get a decent number of people to walk into it for some serious damage (usually that alone is worth upwards on 50% of their hp uncleansed).

 

Generally speaking, if the p/d player is in a team fight it can be more versatile than a rifle because of Dancing Dagger and Body Shot which are both excellent crowd control to help the team land their damage. Using Deadeye you also provide substantial might to the team while doing this and can apply strong knockdowns and condi pressure on single targets. With downed enemies the shortbow’s choking gas is more reliable on a condi poison build and does decent damage.

 

Overall, condition thief is viable if you can master Shadow Strike and know how to use Cloak and Dagger to stay hard to get in a team fight.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Kallist.5917" said:

> > @"GenerationX.9178" said:

> > > @"Kallist.5917" said:

> > > You have a few options.

> > > Option one: stick with a power build, but drop zerker. If you look at the patch notes, it seems like they are finally trying to lean away from glass cannon builds. Maybe try some of the other power stats that include toughness or Vit in the mix.

> > > Option two: Try a Condi build for a while. Either way, Zerker is probably going to be dead for the next quarter or so while they see how these changes pan out.

> >

> > If thieves are such problem we should just get rid of the class? I mean they are useless in PvE. There is plenty op about the other classes but thief is the most?

>

> I really dont think we were a problem. I think they just want to extend the fights to longer than 2-3 seconds for bursters. Make WvW and PvP more accessible to new players. As for us being useless in PVE, I disagree completely. I can Raid, solo dungeon battles and many fractals. I can and have played all the story content alone, even getting the achievements for them on my own. Just cant go in expecting a PVP build to steamroll it.

 

To be honest, if they wanted to extend the duration of fights, it begs the question why they seem to have left shatter mesmer's damage alone. And people always hate the rogue class in any game, it's just something that comes from the perception that we don't fight fair.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > Condi Thief was untouched, in fact, P/D just got a buff with a CnD cost reduction.

> >

> > Not exactly untouched. Panic strike had its ICD increased..

>

> Panic Strike is not a Condi Thief trait, Deadly Trapper is. You will only see Panic Strike on Hybrid, but not Condi.

 

Actually, panic strike with potent poison and trapper's respite was downright OP in full trailblazer gear for the best part of a year if you took Impairing daggers, pressure striking and absorption/draining sigils on shortbow with P/D offhand and focussing on immobing things in choking gas. Combo was to run, set trap by self cancelling heal, then precast impairing daggers, steal, dodge for caltrops, choking gas spam. Trap applies 5 stacks of poison, steal applies 3 stacks, impairing daggers applies 5, and the choking gas spam applies more poison and torment, boon steal and life steal on interrupts. It's only become less good very recently because of the repeated condi nerfs (panic strike used to give 8s duration poison with 100% duration) and the increase in general cleanse availability as a reaction to scourge, for most of HoT it was stupidly powerful.

[babazhook.6805]

I think people overlook the poison add on an IMMOB on many of our skills or utilities when Panic strike taken. As example if one wished they could take devourer Venom . Ordinarily it only 2 strikes of an immob. With panic traited you get 2 strikes of an immob +4 poison.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > Condi Thief was untouched, in fact, P/D just got a buff with a CnD cost reduction.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not exactly untouched. Panic strike had its ICD increased..

> > > >

> > > > Panic Strike is not a Condi Thief trait, Deadly Trapper is. You will only see Panic Strike on Hybrid, but not Condi.

> > >

> > > On a p/d thief Panic strike works with P #2 to add another poison. Traited with potent poison it in fact adds 2 stacks poison per use of #2. That said the increase in the cooldown of panic strike has minimal impact on such a build. P/D thief going condition is not in need of deadly trapper as if you in DE you got all the might you need via sthat spec line. While the Deadly will lower the ICD on Needle you still get more bang for the buck using #2 as a poison source .

> > >

> > > when P/d traits up Panic strike every weapon skill adds conditions. 1 gets bleeds. 2 gets 5 vuln and 2 poison with immob. 3 gets 2 torment. 4 gets torment and crippled and 5 the vuln with launch into sneak attack.

> >

> > Is the 2s poison really worth it? Even with 2 stacks? At the cost of 4 initiative?

> > A single Spider Venom is enough to apply poison pressure and Needle Trap is both offensive and defensive skill. The cost of 4 init to stack 2s of poison is a waste of initiative and a trait slot.

> >

> > However, Panic Strike is more valuable for hybrid. I just don't see it for Condi.

>

> Yes it worth it, trust me on this. I have stacked 10 poison just using this skill with relative easy at range will adding imob and stacking vuln to max. When you couple this with a double steal you can easily push posion stacks to well over 20 in short order even as you get the bleeds on #1. You can STILL take Needle trap or spider venom. Traiting panic strike does not prevent this. All you get out of Deadly trapper in a p/d build is added vuln and Might stacking but in a DE build you already run at max Might stacks so the added ones from deadly trapper are redundant. Now when that panic strike kicks in you get yet another 2 stacks poison. I really see little added benefit to deadly trapper in a p/d build ( I do in d/d condition BUT d/d weaponset has no immobs)

>

> Now you do get an added cooldown to traps but that just gives you needle 6 seconds earlier. I can lay down a lot more poison/vuln and Imobs from P #2 then that extra 6 seconds allow. Remember as well thtat with NEEDLE trap traited using panic strike you get an extra poison from the IMMOB. This means with potent taken your needle trap will out on 5 poison compared to 3. Even better your trappers respite gives 6 poison as compared to 4.

>

> As to INI what would YOU prefer to use it for? You can certainly CND and sneak attack more BUT that is still 5 ini , can still fail and gives 5 bleeds over 2 poison. With Potent traited you are really getting 2.66 poisn and imob and the same vuln. This at range. Bang for the buck very comparable to a CND steal when costing total ini spent versus success rate.

>

>

 

I don't know. Needle Trap applies 3 stacks of 20s of poison at 24s CD with Deadly Trapper trait. With condition duration food, I can push it to 3 stacks of (alomost) perma poison. In addition Trapper's Respite's CD is also reduced from 30s to 24s. In any given fight, I can perma poison with 6 stacks of poison from Needle Traps. That's just the traps.

 

To get 20s worth of poison from Bodyshot, I have to use it 5 times since Panic Strike only applies 4s of poison, that'll cost me 20 Initiatives. Initiative is the most valuable resource so I don't really see the "bang" in that exchange.

 

The only difference between CnD and Bodyshot now is only 1 initiative which makes CnD worth using. At 6 initiative, CnD was never worth it. 5 stacks of bleed with 5.5s duration are still greater than 2 stacks of poison with 4s duration in terms of DoT.

 

Another thing I've found about Bodyshot's weakness is against a target with too many blocks. No immobilization, no poison. Traps are unblockable. So in terms of reliability, I favored traps.

 

Of course, I also consider the benefit of Panic Strike against a target with too many cleanse. It makes reapplying poison easier instead of waiting for a long cooldown. So I see what you're saying. If I can dispatch my target within the 30s base CD of Needle Trap, the CDR doesn't matter, but that is a very rare occurrence especially in WvW. Fights last longer than that majority of the time. I can't really apply 20 stacks of poison only to see it cleansed away.

 

Panic Strike has always been a power/hybrid trait. They added poison so that they have an excuse to nerf it just like what they did now.

 

[babazhook.6805]

>I don't know. Needle Trap applies 3 stacks of 20s of poison at 24s CD with Deadly Trapper trait. With condition duration food, I can push it to 3 stacks of (alomost) perma poison. In addition Trapper's Respite's CD is also reduced from 30s to 24s. In any given fight, I can perma poison with 6 stacks of poison from Needle Traps. That's just the traps.

 

I still think you missing the Poison on Immob aspect of needle trap. First and foremost by taking Panic strikes, I am not precluded from taking the same utilities that a person taking Deadly trapper takes. Nor are my durations affected in any way.

 

So assume you take deadly trapper with needle trap and trappers respite traited and selected. I take Panic strike with Needle trap and trappers respite selected.

 

We both have same durations. It no easier for your build to get those durations then mine on these poisons. You drop a needle and get 3 poison and 3 bleed with the immob. I drop a needle and get 5 poison and three bleeds with an immob. I am getting two extra poison from the same trap . You drop Trappers respite and get 4 poison 3 bleed and an immob . I drop trappers respite and get 6 poison 3 bleed and an immob, or another two stacks of poison. I am now 4 poison stacks ahead of you with the same traps used. My panic strike kicks in and I get 2 more poison again. Those 6 EXTRA poison stacks are like 8 because I get a 33 percent bonus from potent. I am going to have this advantage in poison for 20 seconds. YOU will get an advantage in poison at the 24 second mark which lasts for 6 seconds.

 

To this point I have ignored the extra vuln and might adds you get off the trait deadly trapper. The Might is a wash as I indicated I am using a DE build and in sauch a build one can get might via other means. You do in fact have the VULN advantage which can be significant as it will tick on all conditions. That said, that is the end of the skills Deadly trapper can help. It begins and stops on trap usage and the utility bar limits the overall number of traps you can take.

 

The Poison on Immob add applies to ANY immob the thief might have in his arsenal. If I use binding shadow, i get poison added. If I use p #2 I get poison added. If I use surprise shot i get poison added. I can use p #2 to lock an enemy in a caltrops field whie adding poison and do this even as Vuln applied as well. S/d can add poison.

 

PRIOR to the changes to panic strike and that add of poison on immob I was taking deadly trapper. After the changes and with the arrival of DE I switched to Panic strike. This allows me much more flexibility in Utilities taken and gives me higher poison uptime then you will have. You mentioned poison being cleansed. if you use traps and your traps on cooldown when a cleanse that removes poison performed by the enemy , you have no more poison access until that cooldown expires. I have continous poison application with P #2. This makes a huge different with things like warrior who might cleanse your initial poison stacks as you can simply reapply as needed to inhibit his heals

 

So we will have to agree to disagree :).

[GenerationX.9178]

When I think thief I don't think condition....but guess we have to be annoying with condition and evades now! Good thing there isn't to much condition clear!

[caveman.5840]

I guess the only thing I will be playing with my thief in the near future is the super adventure box

[Volrath.1473]

aw well....

see you guys wen the next expansion comes out!

see you! AF

[babazhook.6805]

Just a few things to add as to why I prefer Panic strike in a Condition build and why p/d condition came out pretty well here.

 

The Ranger steal on DE will add 2 poison plus super speed and immob.

Binding shadow goes from 2 stacks poison, 15 vulln and immob to 4 stacks poison , 15 vuln immob. (Rivals Spider outside the share)

A venom share of devourer will add two poison to each strike by those who use it in addition to the Immob.

 

Other things to like or to comment on.

 

The venom add off the steal for DE was fixed meaning there now 3 poison off the same with potent traited.

 

Signet of Shadows now very usable. In Condition build p/d swiftness not easy to get. Signet now gives that missing out of stealth speed but now its active is much more usable with lower cooldown and its effects of blind plus those vuln stacks and weakness at range and with AOE.

 

Assassins active can be used more frequently, more builds use this to compensate for AA loss. (I only wish Signets of power had more to give)

 

I have tried the new HIS with added heal. If going SA it much more worthwhile now using HIS as an ongoing cleanse wherein you can now trait for lower deception cooldowns.It still has the downside of high cast time so you have to compensate.

 

I have tried new SKELK. Still not my favorite as a standalone heal but in groups with share used very much more effective for support. With no heal in a build you are giving a 5 k heal to 5 different people. Large scale there classes with far better heals but if you are in a small group of 4 or 5 and can manage to load this prior to entering battle it can help win the fight. (One advantage of a skelk heal which is also a disadvantage is that it allows a group to scatter after application and still get the heals as opposed to remaining tight to get the heals off other group members that are providing on an as needed basis).

 

Daggerstorm. The lower ICD nice and I have found occassions where this useful in a fight (in particular against Ranger or p/p thief). Also nice in fields but all my existing builds have a better choice. When solo roaming and seeing a ranger , I will often load this up prior to combat.

 

Smoke screen. Played with it a bit on the lower ICD . Can this skill rival BP with the lower ICD? Really hard to say, a persistent seven second field is nice but it harder to get a leap for stealth off it. It has a blind pulse every second as opposed to off hands pistol every 2. It should in theory be usable. I will continue to try it in various builds but the issue remains there utilities that are locks to take and there only three spots.

 

 

[Urejt.5648]

i love recent thief nerf

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

The 6 seconds shorter CD for Needle Trap due to Deadly Trapper means I get to apply an extra 6 ticks worth of poison compare to not taking Deadly Trapper. Meaning while you wait for a 30s CD, my Needle Trap is already dealing damage for 6 seconds before you get to reuse yours. This is 3 stacks of poison ticking for 6 seconds before you get yours out of CD.

 

In a span of 60 seconds, that's 12 extra ticks of poison for 3 stacks. Using Panic Strike instead of Deadly Trapper, I'll only get 4 extra stacks of poison that last for 4s.

 

So the extra 2 stacks of poisons from Panic Strike that only lasts for 4s, is still less than 6 extra ticks of 3 stacks of poison.

 

Also Body Shot is a very expensive skill at 4 initiative per activation and the Immob only lasts 1.5s, meaning it is a skill meant for an emergency situation. To put this in a perspective, Body Shot costs 33% of the Thief's base Initiative resource. Historically, Body Shot used to cost 3 Initiative and it applies 10 stacks of Vulnerability for 10s. But ever since they added Immob and cut the Vuln stacks by half, it's garbage, and it's only worth using if you really have to. With the recent nerf, they should have lowered the cost of this back to 3 Initiative, then and only then I might switch to Panic Strike because now it has value more than an expensive utility skill. The problem with Body Shot is, ArenaNet can't seem to decide if the skill is an offensive skill or is it a utility skill. As an offensive skill, they should just remove Immob and make poison permanent. As a utility skill, keep the Immob, remove Vulnerability then lower the cost to 2-3 Initiative. They need to make a final decision here.

 

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> If I use binding shadow, i get poison added.

>

 

Ok this one I'm curious. How do you squeeze binding shadow in your build?

 

My utilities are Spider Venom, Needle Trap, and a stun break (RoI or SS). Also if you're using DA and DE, what is your 3rd traitline?

 

> PRIOR to the changes to panic strike and that add of poison on immob I was taking deadly trapper. After the changes and with the arrival of DE I switched to Panic strike. This allows me much more flexibility in Utilities taken and gives me higher poison uptime then you will have. You mentioned poison being cleansed. if you use traps and your traps on cooldown when a cleanse that removes poison performed by the enemy , you have no more poison access until that cooldown expires. I have continous poison application with P #2. This makes a huge different with things like warrior who might cleanse your initial poison stacks as you can simply reapply as needed to inhibit his heals

>

 

I use Spider Venom to bait the cleanses and I did acknowledge the fact that Panic Strike makes it easier to reapply poison.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Of course, I also consider the benefit of Panic Strike against a target with too many cleanse. It makes reapplying poison easier instead of waiting for a long cooldown. So I see what you're saying.

 

And I don't disagree with you. You are a better Thief than I am, that I am sure, especially when it comes to condition builds so I agree with everything you say. However, you are asking an average runner to run a marathon with you. At some point, the build needs to be toned down to match a typical player's skill and play style, e.g. made less aggressive with a larger margin for error. You're the only one I've seen using Panic Strike on a full condition (not hybrid) P/D build.

 

The added poison from Panic Strike is very appealing, but the fact that Body Shot is not worth using makes it overrated.

 

However, if you can tell me how you squeeze Binding Shadow in your build I think you'll have me convince since this skill applies a whopping 15 stacks of Vulnerability plus increased poison duration per Malice. Obviously, I've never used this skill in conjunction with Panic Strike, so I'm also curious if Panic Strike's poison triggers on marked target since the wording on the skill says that the Immob is replaced by the Knockdown. Do you sacrifice a stun break for this?

[saerni.2584]

I don’t use traps, except for the traited trap on heal.

 

My utilities end up being: SS, Mercy, BS and SM. So I have two stun breaks and a reset on mark (which adds another stolen skill and more poison). The Binding Shadow + PP/PS + Body Shot results in knockdown and significant vulnerability (Body Shot adds to the vuln).

 

You are correct that the knockdown replaces the immobilize. That means less poison but the malice duration bonus to the vulnerability is significant so it might be a wash in overall damage benefit.

 

As to the build it can either use Trickery or Shadow Arts. First is very offensive and second is more defensive. (Note: you can use the on interrupt torment trait to get a lot of damage using a combo of stuns built into mark via Trickery and DE.

 

It might even be worth making a S/P condi interrupt build using Trick/DA/DE. Would lack condi clear but might work with the right utilities.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I don’t use traps, except for the traited trap on heal.

>

> My utilities end up being: SS, Mercy, BS and SM. So I have two stun breaks and a reset on mark (which adds another stolen skill and more poison). The Binding Shadow + PP/PS + Body Shot results in knockdown and significant vulnerability (Body Shot adds to the vuln).

>

 

I only really have one stun break in this build because Mercy is used to double Steal. For the same cooldown, I'd get more poison stacks using Spider Venom than double Steal. If DE Mark is instant cast, I'd favor double Stealing too, but it's not. Double Stealing as DE is very clunky.

 

Without bringing Needle Trap + Spider Venom, I effectively cut my poison application by half. Given that Binding Shadow has 30s CD and Body Shot costs 4 Initiatives, I don't think I can apply enough poison pressure as effectively as @babazhook.6805 build could. I would have sacrificed too much damage potential for survivability with this build. I won't get anything done.

 

> You are correct that the knockdown replaces the immobilize. That means less poison but the malice duration bonus to the vulnerability is significant so it might be a wash in overall damage benefit.

>

> As to the build it can either use Trickery or Shadow Arts. First is very offensive and second is more defensive. (Note: you can use the on interrupt torment trait to get a lot of damage using a combo of stuns built into mark via Trickery and DE.

>

 

Shadow Arts is the one I've seen most of the time. I've seen Trickery, but on a hybrid, not full conditions, only because Lead Attacks literally screams "HYBRID!".

 

> It might even be worth making a S/P condi interrupt build using Trick/DA/DE. Would lack condi clear but might work with the right utilities.

 

I use S/P as hybrid, rather than pure condition, for obvious reasons (lack of skills that applies damaging conditions). And yes, Panic Strike is appropriate for this build. Infiltrator's Strike is cost-effective compared to Body Shot if I am only going to use them to apply poison.

[babazhook.6805]

To Binding shadow.

 

I tend to use mix out traits in and out dependent on circumstances.

 

Mercy is always there for the double steal.

SM is the elite.

 

Trappers respite is traited in DA line with panic strike (this 6 poison versus 4).

With the other positions I mix it up dependent on whether I am in a group , especially one that can stay tight so I can share venoms with , or solo. When I solo I tend to drop binding and trait up needle trap with spider and when In groups I tend to go Binding with spider venom. I will also slot in SR at times over one of binding or needle, this generally when I am solo roaming and keep running into outnumbered situations. (The reason is group fights can BE chaotic. In such fights I find trap less reliable)

 

That said were I NOT IN DE , I would lean more toward deadly trapper which I used to use prior to the DE release. This just for the might and Vuln combo.

 

To P/d #2 over CND as far as ini goes. CND still requires a target to stealth off of and while the drop in INI makes it easier, there specific classes I would rather not rely on this for. Stealthed does not help you ward of all those AOE conditions from the scourge as example so when I fight the scourge I would rather port away with #3 and then alternate #2 with #1. This also my preffered tactic with warrior as it can prevent them from getting burst off for adrenal and avoids the counter trait.Always available poison is also not there for just the damage. If I get my 20 stacks poison cleansed I can still ensure an enemies heals inhibited until that other sources comes off cooldown. It is also very useful when you with a small group given you can CC and immob at will and your teamates can wreck the guy. I did not use the skill much until the IMMOB went to 1.5 base. After that I used it more and then the poison added to Immob . When you are in a group you are helping the group more imobbing an enemy then trying to CND one for a sneak attack as an IMMOB prevents that enemy from hitting a teamate and allows multipe team members to focus him down.

 

If you have +60 percent condition durations all types Immobs of #2 are 2 seconds plus and stackable. That in an of itself is a significant ability. . If you are carving the tail off a zerg the same guys that lag behind tend to be the ones that have few IMMOB breaks .

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> To Binding shadow.

>

> I tend to use mix out traits in and out dependent on circumstances.

>

> Mercy is always there for the double steal.

> SM is the elite.

>

> Trappers respite is traited in DA line with panic strike (this 6 poison versus 4).

> With the other positions I mix it up dependent on whether I am in a group , especially one that can stay tight so I can share venoms with , or solo. When I solo I tend to drop binding and trait up needle trap with spider and when In groups I tend to go Binding with spider venom. I will also slot in SR at times over one of binding or needle, this generally when I am solo roaming and keep running into outnumbered situations. (The reason is group fights can BE chaotic. In such fights I find trap less reliable)

>

> That said were I NOT IN DE , I would lean more toward deadly trapper which I used to use prior to the DE release. This just for the might and Vuln combo.

>

> To P/d #2 over CND as far as ini goes. CND still requires a target to stealth off of and while the drop in INI makes it easier, there specific classes I would rather not rely on this for. Stealthed does not help you ward of all those AOE conditions from the scourge as example so when I fight the scourge I would rather port away with #3 and then alternate #2 with #1. This also my preffered tactic with warrior as it can prevent them from getting burst off for adrenal and avoids the counter trait.Always available poison is also not there for just the damage. If I get my 20 stacks poison cleansed I can still ensure an enemies heals inhibited until that other sources comes off cooldown. It is also very useful when you with a small group given you can CC and immob at will and your teamates can wreck the guy. I did not use the skill much until the IMMOB went to 1.5 base. After that I used it more and then the poison added to Immob . When you are in a group you are helping the group more imobbing an enemy then trying to CND one for a sneak attack as an IMMOB prevents that enemy from hitting a teamate and allows multipe team members to focus him down.

>

> If you have +60 percent condition durations all types Immobs of #2 are 2 seconds plus and stackable. That in an of itself is a significant ability. . If you are carving the tail off a zerg the same guys that lag behind tend to be the ones that have few IMMOB breaks .

 

Well when in a group, I don't need to use an expensive Body Shot to immob since crippling them is as effective and costs less and it also has a chance of crippling multiple targets using Dancing Dagger. It deals more damage too since Torment doubles damage on moving target.

 

Going solo using DE in WvW is impossible; not enough mobility or anti-CC. There's simply no alternative to 16s CD stun break from Bandit's Defense.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

>

> Going solo using DE in WvW is impossible; not enough mobility or anti-CC. There's simply no alternative to 16s CD stun break from Bandit's Defense.

 

imo most deadeye builds are only useful running solo in WvW and pretty good at doing that, while in groups there are often better options.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > To Binding shadow.

> >

> > I tend to use mix out traits in and out dependent on circumstances.

> >

> > Mercy is always there for the double steal.

> > SM is the elite.

> >

> > Trappers respite is traited in DA line with panic strike (this 6 poison versus 4).

> > With the other positions I mix it up dependent on whether I am in a group , especially one that can stay tight so I can share venoms with , or solo. When I solo I tend to drop binding and trait up needle trap with spider and when In groups I tend to go Binding with spider venom. I will also slot in SR at times over one of binding or needle, this generally when I am solo roaming and keep running into outnumbered situations. (The reason is group fights can BE chaotic. In such fights I find trap less reliable)

> >

> > That said were I NOT IN DE , I would lean more toward deadly trapper which I used to use prior to the DE release. This just for the might and Vuln combo.

> >

> > To P/d #2 over CND as far as ini goes. CND still requires a target to stealth off of and while the drop in INI makes it easier, there specific classes I would rather not rely on this for. Stealthed does not help you ward of all those AOE conditions from the scourge as example so when I fight the scourge I would rather port away with #3 and then alternate #2 with #1. This also my preffered tactic with warrior as it can prevent them from getting burst off for adrenal and avoids the counter trait.Always available poison is also not there for just the damage. If I get my 20 stacks poison cleansed I can still ensure an enemies heals inhibited until that other sources comes off cooldown. It is also very useful when you with a small group given you can CC and immob at will and your teamates can wreck the guy. I did not use the skill much until the IMMOB went to 1.5 base. After that I used it more and then the poison added to Immob . When you are in a group you are helping the group more imobbing an enemy then trying to CND one for a sneak attack as an IMMOB prevents that enemy from hitting a teamate and allows multipe team members to focus him down.

> >

> > If you have +60 percent condition durations all types Immobs of #2 are 2 seconds plus and stackable. That in an of itself is a significant ability. . If you are carving the tail off a zerg the same guys that lag behind tend to be the ones that have few IMMOB breaks .

>

> Well when in a group, I don't need to use an expensive Body Shot to immob since crippling them is as effective and costs less and it also has a chance of crippling multiple targets using Dancing Dagger. It deals more damage too since Torment doubles damage on moving target.

>

> Going solo using DE in WvW is impossible; not enough mobility or anti-CC. There's simply no alternative to 16s CD stun break from Bandit's Defense.

 

Admittedly the slowness in WvW is a pain, but it not impossible. The build is very robust solo'ing and has a lot of punch as far as condition damage goes with the DE build. Indeed prior to DE I dropped DD because I wanted more punch from the build over that mobility and ultimately daredevil does not really add that much to a p/d build condition wise. (Impairing daggers was best thing going for it, Impaling lotus could do as much jharm as good)

[saerni.2584]

You’d be surprised how much even two stacks of poison does with 15+ vuln.

 

The double steal is somewhat clunky on DE but the combo is generally (assuming no stability/stun break):

 

(1) Misc attacks to clear aegis

(2) Mark

(3) Stolen skill + Sneak Attack (note: the stolen skill is often the first hit and stuns via trait)

(4) Binding Shadow + Body Shot

(5) Shadow Strike or Dancing Dagger

(6) Stolen Skill (random from trait)

(7) Mercy

(8) Mark

(9) Sneak Attack + Stolen skill (this usually hits as they are getting up from the knockdown and stuns again for 1 second)

(10) SM + Stolen Skill + Sneak Attack

[babazhook.6805]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> You’d be surprised how much even two stacks of poison does with 15+ vuln.

>

> The double steal is somewhat clunky on DE but the combo is generally (assuming no stability/stun break):

>

> (1) Misc attacks to clear aegis

> (2) Mark

> (3) Stolen skill + Sneak Attack (note: the stolen skill is often the first hit and stuns via trait)

> (4) Binding Shadow + Body Shot

> (5) Shadow Strike or Dancing Dagger

> (6) Stolen Skill (random from trait)

> (7) Mercy

> (8) Mark

> (9) Sneak Attack + Stolen skill (this usually hits as they are getting up from the knockdown and stuns again for 1 second)

> (10) SM + Stolen Skill + Sneak Attack

 

Pretty close to my own rotation. The thing with the DE and that on demand vuln via the Body shot is that when used in conjunction with Binding , you can time your vuln for when you have the most Conditions on. I tend to not liking to use either until I ramp up some conditions so I know I can get this extra hard ticks. Just as example in the TR version where BA taken i can preload some poison or even immobs to force a cleanse, then get the Confusion on in a back to back steal and then pile on the vuln. I can get confusion ticks of 4k. You then get the might kick ins on top of that via DE. You can generally get feedback as to when the target vulnerable as far as cleanse go and having body shot there allows a quick pile on. The theoretical +33 from potent +15 from lead attacks and +25 from vuln, with might stack on as far as poison goes can get some very hard ticks and favors more stacks over long durations or earlier access to a source of poison. It a getting there firstist with the mostest sort of thing.

 

As to dancing dagger and the torment with cripple, yes it nice to use but situational. You get 1 stack torment versus the equivalent of 2 * (.33+.05) poison and a cripple versus an Immob. Immob>cripple. Versus a DH as example they have front facing blocks. With an Immob you can freely attack from behind and they can not turn and face. There also attacks that can only be made when facing a target, again IMMOB prevents turn and face where cripple does not. Dancing does hit harder raw damage and has that bounce and is generally harder to avoid.Crippled foes can still dodge, where Immobed can not. There situational advantages to using either.

[saerni.2584]

Yeah, I use Dancing most when facing a ranger who stealths. Just use DD on the pet to stack cripple and plenty of torment.

 

It’s also worth mentioning that the DE builds up might during this and will hit 25 stacks during a burst rotation. That plus vuln is a recipe for seriously strong damage.

 

But as Babaz mentioned the added benefit is using Body Shot and Binding Shadow to control the field. I don’t need to do 8k damage per hit if I can just lock down a target to let team mates hit them for full effect. DE is team support, so I can stack 16-24 might on a team mate hitting the knocked down target w/ 15+ vuln. I don’t always need to be the one doing damage to contribute decisively to the outcome.

 

This applies in PvP and WvW. Isolate and focus a target. Apply your burst to soft targets and lock down harder targets to let the group focus them down.