why no Ferocity Infusions?

[nicknamenick.2437]

Doenst make any sense..

 

We have any stat infusion now expect ferocity.. its not like they are stonger then power..

Not that i even want them but its just weird and stupid that they are the only one left behind.

[thrag.9740]

edit: I have attempted to fix the math, thank you for pointing it out to me.

 

Hmmm. Ok so I believe the equation for damage done is:

 

Damage = (weapon strength * skill coefficient / armor) * power * (1 + critical chance * (.5 + ferocity / 1500))

 

For simplicity, lets assume we have 100% crit chance, additionally the 3 coefficients are not meaningful, so scale them out:

 

normalized damage = power * ( 1.5 + ferocity/1500)

 

Lets calculate partial derivatives:

 

del damage / del power = 1.5 + ferocity / 1500

 

del damage / del ferocity = power / 1500

 

As you can see the derivatives are not constant. We need values to plug in. Lets consider a full zerker ele with banners,might, food, no infusions. I went to aerodrome to test and I had 4059 power and 1672 ferocity.

 

That gives us:

del damage / del power = 1.5 + 1672 / 1500 = 1.5 + 1.114666666 = 2.61

 

del damage / del ferocity = 4059 / 1500 = 2.7

 

So as you can see, ferocity would be marginally better. Note, it is not clear based off this work whether 3-stat gear with ferocity main trait would be optimal in all slots, or only some slots. Although the difference is small, infusions are specifically made for people who like to min max. I guess there are 2 ways to see this, on the one hand those players would have to fork up a lot of money to re-optimize their build. On the other hand, they could further optimize it.

 

 

[CptAurellian.9537]

I'm pretty sure something's off in your calculation if ferocity is more than two times as strong as power. Last time I calculated it, the difference was fairly small. Will check tomorrow, too tired right now.

[nicknamenick.2437]

Ferocity and power issnt much of a difference.. besides its +5 so in the end it doesnt matter much.. but that doesnt still make sense to not implement them.. we have infusions for every stat now..

 

And if your right that fero is stronger.. why do we have condi power AND condi duration infusions?? Because 1 of them is also always better depending the gamemode..

[Ensign.2189]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> I'm pretty sure something's off in your calculation if ferocity is more than two times as strong as power. Last time I calculated it, the difference was fairly small. Will check tomorrow, too tired right now.

 

Yep. He forgot a zero.

 

Ferocity infusions are ~3.5% better than power infusions at full buffs (as per his example), and worse by a healthy margin when not at full buffs. I don't see a problem with adding them, but using them is almost always the wrong choice.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> Hmmm. Ok so I believe the equation for damage done is:

>

> Damage = (weapon strength * skill coefficient / armor) * power * (1 + critical chance * (.5 + ferocity / 150))

>

> For simplicity, lets assume we have 100% crit chance, additionally the 3 coeffecients are not meaningful, so scale them out:

>

> normalized damage = power * ( 1.5 + ferocity/150)

>

> Lets calculate partial derivatives:

>

> del damage / del power = 1.5 + ferocity / 150

>

> del damage / del ferocity = power / 150

>

> As you can see the derivatives are not constant. We need values to plug in. Lets consider a full zerker ele with banners,might, food, no infusions. I went to aerodrome to test and I had 4059 power and 1672 ferocity.

>

> That gives us:

> del damage / del power = 1.5 + 1672 / 150 = 1.5 + 11.14666666 = 12.6

>

> del damage / del ferocity = 4059 / 150 = 27

>

> So as you can see, there is no contest. Ferocity infusions would be clearly more optimal. Note, it is not clear based off this work whether 3-stat gear with ferocity main trait would be optimal in all slots, or only some slots. So I suppose the question is, if you have ferocity infusions, what is the point of power infusions? For typical pve gameplay, they are redundant. For wvw that make it even easier to one shot players.

>

>

 

 

Your math is way off here by use of arbitrary numbers and the division of power by ferocity's stat formula as a measure of efficiency by stat points themselves rather than by a measure of efficiency of the actual outgoing damage.

 

I did a breakdown for the necromancer forums recently regarding stat efficiency of ferocity and even at some of the most extreme cases achievable in-game, power is always superior as a stat even on 100% crit chance when optimizing for damage output.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/447637#Comment_447637

 

This is no different. Ferocity as a stat is mathematically inefficient in virtually every way.

 

As for the OP,

My real guess is that it wasn't implemented because it's

A.) Nearly always inefficient to bother, and

B.) Ferocity did not originally exist with the old fractal infusions because the critical damage stat was actually just that: additive critical damage as a percent increase. This came in very small percentage increases per piece of gear, so something like 1% on an infusion would be way too strong for back then. When they made the changeover, investment into critical damage (Ferocity) as a source of damage was nerfed by around 15% directly. They likely just never bothered to add new infusions when they made the changeover, and there's just no incentive to to do nowadays for reason explained above.

 

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > I'm pretty sure something's off in your calculation if ferocity is more than two times as strong as power. Last time I calculated it, the difference was fairly small. Will check tomorrow, too tired right now.

>

> Yep. He forgot a zero.

>

> Ferocity infusions are ~3.5% better than power infusions at full buffs (as per his example), and worse by a healthy margin when not at full buffs. I don't see a >problem with

 

Ah there it is.

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> Your math is way off here by use of arbitrary numbers and the division of power by ferocity's stat formula as a measure of efficiency by stat points themselves rather than by a measure of efficiency of the actual outgoing damage.

I don't know about whatever your trying to say here, but my math is definitely wrong because I messed up a zero.

 

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I did a breakdown for the necromancer forums recently regarding stat efficiency of ferocity and even at some of the most extreme cases achievable in-game, power is always superior as a stat even on 100% crit chance when optimizing for damage output.

>

As far as I can see, you did an incorrect break down. You calculated the gain of having +200 power and compared it to having +10% crit damage. But 10% crit damage doesn't take 200 ferocity, it takes 150 ferocity.

 

Using your same example

 

3750/3600 = 1.04

 

I.e. 4%, which is slightly below the 5% ferocity number you gave. Also using delta's of 200 when dealing with baseline as low as 2000 (10%) is questionable. Just use the derivative instead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> I'm pretty sure something's off in your calculation if ferocity is more than two times as strong as power. Last time I calculated it, the difference was fairly small. Will check tomorrow, too tired right now.

 

no need to check, ur right, thanks for pointing it out

[DeceiverX.8361]

Seems I also made a bit of an error in my claim - point-per-point, the scaling is nearly identical at the baseline slightly favoring power, but stacking ferocity as a damage modifier is less effective in current gear availability, while stacking power, not stacking ferocity, and then using said infusions would actually be a net gain in efficiency by the nature of how additive stats work.

 

The armor value you use is arbitrary btw since everything's multiplicative. The division there makes more sense - I thought you were dividing by the ferocity baseline at 150 and not the 1500 armor one, which was also why I was confident your math was wrong by being based off some sort of weird function of the crit damage base value.

 

My example is based more on pragmatic possibilities and what makes sense than encompassing all mathematical possibilities. Ferocity really only has value with strong investment in power (ignoring the precision component). Realistically, both stats will be high, and generally, the 90 ferocity would be a poor investment into gear which uses it heavily, such as Berserker, Marauder, and even Valkyrie gear, Even in high-power contexts like berserker/valkyrie gear, the high power at 2556 and high ferocity at 220.73% critical damage gives the following yields:

 

90/2556 = 3.52%

90/15/220.73 = 2.718%

 

Even this with +750 power from might (making the +90 power relatively less efficient), the result is still 90/(2556+750=3306) = 2.722%

 

This begins to even favor situations with lower power and higher precision/ferocity like Marauder and Assassin's, which have bigger relative differences - nearly a full percentage point.

 

And of course, this also assume 100% crit rate; in any non-crit scenario, the power wins by default. And the number of effective builds with100% crit rate and disproportionately low investment into ferocity compared to power to take advantage of this disparity is pretty low, if not zero (I know of none).

 

Thus, realistically, the investment is almost always worthwhile into just power. There are a few minute exceptions by gaming the math by optimizing efficiency in other directions, but the claim that ferocity < power is almost always true in effective play.

 

 

 

 

[thrag.9740]

100% crit chance isn't unrealistic, it is literally the only thing most groups run. I think you've forgotten, your in the raids forum. An ele with 4k power (in fire) isn't a fringe case, it is completely standard, an ele significantly below that is probably getting kicked. The numbers you've chosen may be realistic for wvw (where your original post was), but they are not realistic here. PVE is dominated by glass cannon, and maxed out support, infusion are for people who completely max out.

 

Your missing the banner buffs (170 power), your missing ea (150 power), your missing food (100 power) and utility (60? power).

 

Look at the derivatives:

 

del damage / del power = 1.5 + ferocity / 1500

 

del damage / del ferocity = power / 1500

 

Each stat becomes more effective the more you have of the other. Ferocity can only be equipped as a minor stat, not a major, as a result, nearly every pve meta build when factoring in typical buffs, finds itself in a region of parameter space where 5 more ferocity is worth more than 5 more power.

 

Lets use the ratio that a meta holosmith uses without infusions, and try to find the tipping point where ferocity and power are tied. Accounting for buffs from group, food etc.

3854 power : 1433 ferocity

so ferocity = .37 power.

 

This ratio won't be the same for all meta builds in the game, but it should give us a ballpark estimate of the tipping point where 5 more power is less effective than 5 more ferocity.

 

del damage / del power = 1.5 +(.37 / 1500) * power

 

del damage / del ferocity = power / 1500

 

 

So where is the tipping point? Set em equal and solve for the critical power. We get the critical power as being 3,629. I doubt there is any meta power build in pve that is below that. Some builds have extra ferocity such as axe warrior, their critical power is going to be notably higher.

 

But so far we have worked out the specifics for ele and holo, 2 of the most common power builds in raids.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

From a different thread on this topic (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/13011/the-point-at-which-ferocity-outperforms-power)

 

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> If crit chance is 100%, ferocity will out-perform power when power > ferocity + 2250.

 

So, it's possible that the ferocity infusions weren't itroduced not because they are useless, but for an exactly opposite reason - because they are stronger on a fully optimized character.

 

 

[Ensign.2189]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> So, it's possible that the ferocity infusions weren't itroduced not because they are useless, but for an exactly opposite reason - because they are stronger on a fully optimized character.

 

I imagine the reason they don't exist is similar to the reason why Ferocity/Power/Precision 3 stat gear doesn't exist. If you look at each of the other 8 infusion options there's an element of strategic choice. Sure, for the kind of high-investment players optimizing on forums they're picked as DPS optimizations for raid bosses, but even outside that there's a meaningful difference between condition damage (front loaded bigger ticks) and duration (which also affects control conditions); between power (hit harder) and precision (more crits to trigger procs).

 

However there's not a lot of difference between power and ferocity in that regard. There's no use case for it other than a DPS optimization. If 'big Ferocity Berserker' existed players would be able to squeeze a couple tenths of a percent more damage out of a build under perfect conditions - is that worth the addition? Similarly adding Ferocity infusions would, in the best case scenario, allow a couple builds to squeeze another tenth of a percent damage out under perfect conditions. Is that a meaningful addition to the game? Is that going to provide players with better choices, and are players going to appreciate being able to re-gear to squeeze out that extra percentage point?

 

Now I think that clean design like that is justified in the case of big ferocity zerker, but for infusions, the fact there are only 9 stats in the game and it's the only one missing makes the appeal to completeness stronger. But I can see the argument going either way, and there really isn't a 'demand' to get it in; there are tons of higher priority changes to queue up in game.

 

[nicknamenick.2437]

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > So, it's possible that the ferocity infusions weren't itroduced not because they are useless, but for an exactly opposite reason - because they are stronger on a fully optimized character.

>

> I imagine the reason they don't exist is similar to the reason why Ferocity/Power/Precision 3 stat gear doesn't exist. If you look at each of the other 8 infusion options there's an element of strategic choice. Sure, for the kind of high-investment players optimizing on forums they're picked as DPS optimizations for raid bosses, but even outside that there's a meaningful difference between condition damage (front loaded bigger ticks) and duration (which also affects control conditions); between power (hit harder) and precision (more crits to trigger procs).

>

> However there's not a lot of difference between power and ferocity in that regard. There's no use case for it other than a DPS optimization. If 'big Ferocity Berserker' existed players would be able to squeeze a couple tenths of a percent more damage out of a build under perfect conditions - is that worth the addition? Similarly adding Ferocity infusions would, in the best case scenario, allow a couple builds to squeeze another tenth of a percent damage out under perfect conditions. Is that a meaningful addition to the game? Is that going to provide players with better choices, and are players going to appreciate being able to re-gear to squeeze out that extra percentage point?

>

> Now I think that clean design like that is justified in the case of big ferocity zerker, but for infusions, the fact there are only 9 stats in the game and it's the only one missing makes the appeal to completeness stronger. But I can see the argument going either way, and there really isn't a 'demand' to get it in; there are tons of higher priority changes to queue up in game.

>

 

Totally agree with you

 

 

 

 

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> From a different thread on this topic (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/13011/the-point-at-which-ferocity-outperforms-power)

>

> > @"Ensign.2189" said:

> > If crit chance is 100%, ferocity will out-perform power when power > ferocity + 2250.

>

> So, it's possible that the ferocity infusions weren't itroduced not because they are useless, but for an exactly opposite reason - because they are stronger on a fully optimized character.

>

>

 

I know ensign replied already but I want to reiterate for anyone who reads this thread in the future that the difference between power and fero infusions fully buffed raid scenario is like 0.1%. Having a little caffeine before the raid to up your reaction time will be worth far more DPS than ferocity infusions.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> From a different thread on this topic (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/13011/the-point-at-which-ferocity-outperforms-power)

>

> > @"Ensign.2189" said:

> > If crit chance is 100%, ferocity will out-perform power when power > ferocity + 2250.

>

> So, it's possible that the ferocity infusions weren't itroduced not because they are useless, but for an exactly opposite reason - because they are stronger on a fully optimized character.

>

>

 

That doesnt seem like a reason they wouldnt be added.