PvP/WvW Balance Patch - What Went Wrong Boys?

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree with OP.

 

Mes needs to be toned down.

Specifically the Invul, evade and blocks.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

I love the responses on this forum. This was a great patch. They balance around actually skilled players from winners of Automated Tournaments and the top players, yet this forum is mostly consisting of.... not them. So to answer the original question to what went wrong? The players love to complain. Yes mesmer still needs looked at, but it got a massive rework lately, so I'm sure they want to actually fix the problems and this patch was only a numbers game. You can't fix a mesmer with just numbers. That being said, I see many good players not have that many issues killing mesmers, so they aren't NEARLY as bad as people would make you think.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> They balance around actually skilled players from winners of Automated Tournaments and the top players, yet this forum is mostly consisting of.... not them.

 

Please state the support for this claim for the Thief changes specifically.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> They are more builds that aren't viable anymore that brand new builds that could be interesting in spvp now .... So for me , it's not a good patch

>

> For People that needs examples .... here they are:

>

> # Out

> full support Firebrand

> full support Tempest

> Condi bruiser weaver

> Support/bunker herald (yeah was still a decent thing)

> Not sure the S/D discharge holosmith is a thing anymore... need to ask to engineer players

> FA weaver is debatable : got nerfed in term of dmg cause no more support but why other burst builds didn't? I wonder

> Blood Scourge ofc !

> (maybe D/P thief but i'm not an expert and was maybe already "dead" before the patch)

>

> # In

> Power Reaper

> Paladin? scrapper

> Power Mesmer (since last rework patch tho)

>

> # Come Back

> Condi mesmer seems like ... even if i don't get how

>

>

> PS: Feel free to add/remove builds if you disagree or if I forgot /made a mistake about something.

 

Firebrand, Blood scourge, Holosmith aren't going anywhere. Bruiser weaver is in a stronger position because Spellbreaker and Druid, it's main competition, received considerable nerfs, and that variant of weaver mostly didn't.

 

FA weaver got unnecessarily hit but I've seen a few competent ones off season. We'll see how it goes. It wasn't really meta anyway.

 

D/P thief was already out in favor of S/D thieves.

 

I never saw a single support herald while in platinium last season. Not one.

 

I think your perspective of what's meta now is really off.

[bLind.6278]

I swapped from SB to scourge and have won ten straight games in blowouts. The level of skill required has dropped considerably, too. I just stand on point and shit explodes, now. Playing warrior for years taught me how to avoid taking damage, and unless I get assreamed by three players or more in a teamfight with no support, staying alive isn't too bad.

 

They removed warrior for the meta, so I stopped playing warrior.

 

A week after crafting twilight, too. Fuck.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> > They balance around actually skilled players from winners of Automated Tournaments and the top players, yet this forum is mostly consisting of.... not them.

>

> Please state the support for this claim for the Thief changes specifically.

 

Thieves have always hit fairly hard and have easy escape. They tuned down literally all of the damage on all classes, so to not nerf the thief is to buff the thief. Thief didn't need buffs, and was in a good place where skilled players can make impressive plays, and still are in the same place. Those that are complaining, either don't realize that all classes were hit, or aren't skilled enough to actually use the class still. Thief won't leave the meta, only bad ones will.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > They are more builds that aren't viable anymore that brand new builds that could be interesting in spvp now .... So for me , it's not a good patch

> >

> > For People that needs examples .... here they are:

> >

> > # Out

> > full support Firebrand

> > full support Tempest

> > Condi bruiser weaver

> > Support/bunker herald (yeah was still a decent thing)

> > Not sure the S/D discharge holosmith is a thing anymore... need to ask to engineer players

> > FA weaver is debatable : got nerfed in term of dmg cause no more support but why other burst builds didn't? I wonder

> > Blood Scourge ofc !

> > (maybe D/P thief but i'm not an expert and was maybe already "dead" before the patch)

> >

> > # In

> > Power Reaper

> > Paladin? scrapper

> > Power Mesmer (since last rework patch tho)

> >

> > # Come Back

> > Condi mesmer seems like ... even if i don't get how

> >

> >

> > PS: Feel free to add/remove builds if you disagree or if I forgot /made a mistake about something.

>

> Firebrand, Blood scourge, Holosmith aren't going anywhere. Bruiser weaver is in a stronger position because Spellbreaker and Druid, it's main competition, received considerable nerfs, and that variant of weaver mostly didn't.

>

> FA weaver got unnecessarily hit but I've seen a few competent ones off season. We'll see how it goes. It wasn't really meta anyway.

>

> D/P thief was already out in favor of S/D thieves.

>

> I never saw a single support herald while in platinium last season. Not one.

>

> I think your perspective of what's meta now is really off.

 

Hey there ! first thanks for your consideration

 

Then, my state was about the state of pvp after last tuesday patch . So it might be early still but that's how i feel for now. But trust me ... when no ones is going firebrand and you needed a support last season . Support helard was usefull. Just cause you don't see them that often doesn't mean it doesn"t exist . ;) But is not playable anymore. no point of running ventari now... you better go power herald.

 

Holosmith is bugged so damage of photon phorge isn't worth anymore. that's why we don't see them for now. And for SWord/Dagger weaver, it works well on menders only. sage isn't quite effective (as it was before). And blood scourge isn't worth it . youbetter go the old scourge spec before ppl noticed blood was "OP" (not talking about reaper tho)

 

PS: I got plat 2 last season with only sage sword weaver and FA weaver so it wasn't that bad in some match up ! especially when scourges camp a point (unplayable on coloseum tho)

[Alek Seven.2374]

(Delete this comment please)

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> Thieves have always hit fairly hard and have easy escape. They tuned down literally all of the damage on all classes, so to not nerf the thief is to buff the thief. Thief didn't need buffs, and was in a good place where skilled players can make impressive plays, and still are in the same place. Those that are complaining, either don't realize that all classes were hit, or aren't skilled enough to actually use the class still. Thief won't leave the meta, only bad ones will.

 

Of course Thief won't leave the meta. They haven't removed Shortbow 5 yet.

 

The Thief just took a huge hit. The Dagger and Sword both lost 25% of damage on their first 2 AA attacks. Pulmonary Impact lost nearly 30% damage. Larcenous Strike lost at least 15% damage. The S/D Thief's sustainability got gutted with the changes to Acrobatics. Even Roll for Initiative got hit with a higher cooldown.

 

Please do not say that the Thief didn't get nerfed, so it's ok. It did get nerfed, but its mobility remains the same. That's why skilled players can still make plays... because mobility is what they've been using for years. Once again, if you remove Shortbow 5, you remove the Thief. It's the sad truth.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> > Thieves have always hit fairly hard and have easy escape. They tuned down literally all of the damage on all classes, so to not nerf the thief is to buff the thief. Thief didn't need buffs, and was in a good place where skilled players can make impressive plays, and still are in the same place. Those that are complaining, either don't realize that all classes were hit, or aren't skilled enough to actually use the class still. Thief won't leave the meta, only bad ones will.

>

> Of course Thief won't leave the meta. They haven't removed Shortbow 5 yet.

>

> The Thief just took a huge hit. The Dagger and Sword both lost 25% of damage on their first 2 AA attacks. Pulmonary Impact lost nearly 30% damage. Larcenous Strike lost at least 15% damage. The S/D Thief's sustainability got gutted with the changes to Acrobatics. Even Roll for Initiative got hit with a higher cooldown.

>

> Please do not say that the Thief didn't get nerfed, so it's ok. It did get nerfed, but its mobility remains the same. That's why skilled players can still make plays... because mobility is what they've been using for years. Once again, if you remove Shortbow 5, you remove the Thief. It's the sad truth.

 

Considering there are very few fights that the thief should take solo, it's not a huge deal. That being said, I feel that I retain a lot of my effectiveness in +1 situations which is where a thief does it's best work (other than decaps/harass of course, but that's mostly shortbow as you said). I do believe that with sustain nerfs to all classes, this was a fair change to thief. Things that could kill me fighting for a node, still can, things I could destroy, I still can, and spiking an unknowing target is still pretty great. I just wanted people to see that there's still a point in taking thief and it's still effective and counter some of the "Thief is dead, we got nerfed and no one else did" crap that is so common on the forums. I felt it was in line with the other changes mostly.

[Dristig.9678]

PvP team seems extra bad at balancing complementary classes. Scourge/Mesmer/FB on the same team is an auto win even if the players are potatoes. Was playing solo q the other day and we had a team down 150 points until those three classes found each other and then they systematically ran between two points and insta-gibbed our whole team. I honestly never saw the other people on the team. Just those three roaming and nuking.

[Abazigal.3679]

Nothing's so wrong in pratic. The problem in builds was clearly about PoF builds that are much better than others, which are obsolete now. Not saying all core/HoT builds are crap, they can be good, but are less efficient than new ones. I'm much more confident when i see our guard is running FB than if he's running DH for example, and the pratic proves me i'm right.

 

That being said, i agree with Dristig. The problem lies also in setups, which can easily lead in butterfly effects after any death..

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> Nothing's so wrong in pratic. The problem in builds was clearly about PoF builds that are much better than others, which are obsolete now. Not saying all core/HoT builds are crap, they can be good, but are less efficient than new ones. I'm much more confident when i see our guard is running FB than if he's running DH for example, and the pratic proves me i'm right.

>

> That being said, i agree with Dristig. The problem lies also in setups, which can easily lead in butterfly effects after any death..

 

Your argue is too basic ... it's so easy to say things like that with only one example. There's almost the same amount of counter example. So no ... the balance HOT/POF isn't relevant anymore. Especially now they removed the magi amulet. WHich the only option for support build is celestial and menders. That's why HOT spec are less strong now .

 

Counter example: druid is less good now but still stronger than soulbeast. But most ranger go core ranger now anyway. DH is a power spec that requires to stay on point almsot... but core guard is better than DH and FB since no more magi. Chronomancer is more annoying than mirage but they have both different roles. Berserker is so in a poor state now than OFC spellbreaker will be better even with the nerf. It was designed for pvp anyway. See? when you start arguing more specifically.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> Considering there are very few fights that the thief should take solo, it's not a huge deal. That being said, I feel that I retain a lot of my effectiveness in +1 situations which is where a thief does it's best work (other than decaps/harass of course, but that's mostly shortbow as you said).

 

While it is all about perspective, this is exactly the problem from my perspective. The Thief is still relegated to decap, harass, and +1 as usual.

 

Some Thieves want more abilities to support teammates in team fights.

Other Thieves want more ability to ambush/assassinate/duel isolated targets.

I don't really hear much about Thieves wanting multi-target destructive capability.

 

Mobility/Stealth is balanced by lack of normal defenses and mitigation.

Glassiness should be balanced with combat potential. Single-target damage is fitting for the Thief.

 

Again...

 

> Considering there are very few fights that the thief should take solo

 

That statement is based on today's game. And just as every patch proves, the game can and does change.

The Thief **should** only take on very few fights solo because the current Thief **can** only succeed in very few solo fights.

However, that can (and, in my opinion, should) change.

 

With a single patch, the statement could change so that a Thief **should always** engage in a solo fight whenever possible.

I don't believe anybody is looking for that extreme of a change. I believe a fairer statement would be when you can say the following...

A Thief **should never** fight in an **outnumbered** fight.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> > Considering there are very few fights that the thief should take solo, it's not a huge deal. That being said, I feel that I retain a lot of my effectiveness in +1 situations which is where a thief does it's best work (other than decaps/harass of course, but that's mostly shortbow as you said).

>

> While it is all about perspective, this is exactly the problem from my perspective. The Thief is still relegated to decap, harass, and +1 as usual.

>

> Some Thieves want more abilities to support teammates in team fights.

> Other Thieves want more ability to ambush/assassinate/duel isolated targets.

> I don't really hear much about Thieves wanting multi-target destructive capability.

>

> Mobility/Stealth is balanced by lack of normal defenses and mitigation.

> Glassiness should be balanced with combat potential. Single-target damage is fitting for the Thief.

>

> Again...

>

> > Considering there are very few fights that the thief should take solo

>

> That statement is based on today's game. And just as every patch proves, the game can and does change.

> The Thief **should** only take on very few fights solo because the current Thief **can** only succeed in very few solo fights.

> However, that can (and, in my opinion, should) change.

>

> With a single patch, the statement could change so that a Thief **should always** engage in a solo fight whenever possible.

> I don't believe anybody is looking for that extreme of a change. I believe a fairer statement would be when you can say the following...

> A Thief **should never** fight in an **outnumbered** fight.

 

So while I would love to agree with you, it's very hard to. A thief by design has it's defenses from mobility (keeping them off point) and stealth (no point cap contribution). Asking for more power just leads to insane damage when in a +1 situation (Read into the mesmer, though of course, that has other problems). This was very similar to the Fresh air elementalist. It hit hard (much like a thief) but had problems standing on point (much like a thief). The balance was that they could hit from range, and a thief could escape much easier, not giving them 5 points and a respawn timer. It's a matter of role. While many consider it unfair that the thief is relegated to these roles, I want to ask why you play a thief. That's literally what it was built for, and I have to ask why you want it to do things it wasn't built for when there are other classes that could suit that playstyle much better. I multi class, because I like to fit different roles. Node holders, I personally like either sword ele, or mesmer, for +1 I would take fresh air ele or thief, for a tanking or support role, I would take a firebrand or scourge. The problem lies within the fact that some want their class to be able to do any role, and I don't see why. We have the mesmer which can already fill too many roles, and people are screaming about that, and they should. Instead of asking for every class to be what the mesmer is, you should learn some new classes if you don't like the roles that they are built for. It's good for the game for me to see a thief and know that I'm in for a hard dit if they get to me, and if they started hitting like a wet noodle but tanked, I'd have to be asking why a different class didn't fill that role, which could be done better. Classes should feel different or we have just a bland arbitrary choice when we are choosing a class.

[pelle ossa.9705]

don't worry anet buffed guardian gs >_>

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> So while I would love to agree with you, it's very hard to.

 

So the desire is there in your heart ;-)

 

> A thief by design has it's defenses from mobility (keeping them off point) and stealth (no point cap contribution). Asking for more power just leads to insane damage when in a +1 situation

 

I'm not sure if you mean "power" generically or specifically. If you mean specifically, that's not necessarily what I'm asking for, though I'm not outright refusing it. If you mean generally, then of course. I'll call it capability.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the Thief was very, very lethal at the launch of GW2. I'm not looking to make it the "apex predator" that it once was. But to make it a decent dueler... not a "run-away at first sight of an enemy" type of class. As a Thief, I would prefer to not have to be (relatively) outgunned by every single profession out there.

 

The issue is that the Thief's main mobility is from Shortbow 5. And also the Thief's main reason for the Thief's existence is mobility. So it creates a dilemma. Either take Shortbow so you actually have a "role" in PvP, or don't take it in favor of TRYING to increase your combat potential, but still be relatively too weak to accomplish your goal. And I think that's one of the main problems... there's no real opportunity to choose to give up mobility for combat potential. Versatility? Yes. But not lethality or sustain. At least, not enough.

 

I can choose D/P and Shortbow or I can choose S/D and Shortbow or I can choose D/P and S/D. The last option is preferable as a fighter, but it removes my mobility as well as my escapability, yet while it does improve my combat versatility, it does not improve my combat lethality significantly enough compared to the first two options.

 

As far as specific power, I would say it has the same issues. I've built for sustain, healing, and evasion with S/D before. Before HoT, I could bunker a point decently against 2 and sometimes 3 opponents for an extended amount of time. But today, I can't hold a point against anything but another Thief. Other professions just have too much damage output and too much duration AoE relative to the Thief's sustainability.

 

Ok, so a Thief isn't really meant for bunkering. I understand that. So I go to the other extreme. I build for pure damage. I played as both a Berserker and an Assassin Thief at different times. I built for sustained damage output... DA/CS/T. And before HoT, it did decently. I would get 1-or-2-shot frequently, of course, but I could still be a factor. But in today's game, I can't even manage that. Other professions still have too much damage output for me to even get a few hits in, and they also have way, way, way too many defenses... whether active or passive. Whether it be by AoE or Protection or Retaliation or mirror traits... my glass cannon is more of a glass bb-gun. I can't even get into melee range with several professions without getting insta-downed half the time. Sometimes, I don't even have to be trying to get into melee... if I miss a single dodge or even don't see the enemy, I get pulled into an insta-downing AoE.

 

And I believe that is the main issue I have. That a glass cannon Thief can be easily, easily downed. Many skills track a movie target. Many ranged skills are (near) instant with no projectile. There aren't enough dodges... D/P doesn't even have an evade. Going up against a Ranger or even a P/P Thief, it takes both dodges to avoid Rapid Fire and Unload. May not even be in range of the Ranger to Headshot him. May not even see the Thief at all. Stealthing is the main defense, but the channeled skills still track. However, even if I perfect all of my dodges and interrupts, etc... then what is my reward for that? 100% glass defensively, yet on par offensively with the other professions who are not glass. I go down easier and faster, yet I don't take anyone else down any easier or faster. In fact, it's much more difficult for me to down someone because I'm having to play defense every single moment. I simply cannot take a hit like others can, yet my attacks don't receive the just reward for such risk.

 

As for argument against the lethal +1 scenario, yes, if the Thief can be powerful enough to fight a 1v1, it will be even more powerful in a +1. But doesn't that make sense? As it stands now, just about any profession that does make a fight +1 will be able to do more than the Thief. The only issue for them is getting there. The Thief has Shortbow 5 which does help on vertical maps. However, other professions are not so far behind. Mesmers have Blink and Portal, and can literally make a fight +4 instantly with it. Many others have some quick-moving skills and capabilities as well. Rangers and Dragonhunters don't even need to get close to have an effect with their Longbows. I can understand that the lone fighter may never see a Thief coming... but he may never see a Mesmer Moa him either.

 

I do find it interesting, however, that as much as I played a pure glass cannon, never once in my memory did another Thief EVER insta-burst me down... even when dazed and stunned with Steal/Backstab/Basilisk Venom combos. Yes, it hurt, but I was always able to stunbreak out of it to extend the fight... even if for only a few seconds. However, I cannot say the same against other professions. Guardians, Warriors, Mesmers, Revenants... all insta-downs. It's especially fun from invisible Mesmers, of course.

 

> While many consider it unfair that the thief is relegated to these roles, I want to ask why you play a thief. That's literally what it was built for, and I have to ask why you want it to do things it wasn't built for when there are other classes that could suit that playstyle much better.

 

That is a very good question. Hopefully, I have a satisfactory answer.

 

First of all, I am addicted to the initiative system. I really don't like MMO's in general. Most of them have the generic skill rotation/cooldown system that really doesn't make sense to me in combat. So I tend to avoid them. Fortunately, the Thief does not suffer so much from cooldowns relative to everyone else. To me, the initiative system really fits the concept of the Thief which is to be versatile and adaptable so it can do whatever it needs to do at a moment's notice. It provides for gameplay that is much more akin to a fighting game (Street Fighter, Tekken, etc.) than a generic MMO or strategy game. I really cannot overstate the significance of the initiative system. While it certainly is not perfect, in my opinion, I believe it is far superior to the cooldown system. If given the choice, I would give the system to every profession. While the Thief's skills may not be as balanced or well-thought out because the system is so different, I still could not bear the Thief to lose it.

 

Secondly, I enjoy the active playstyle of the Thief. Save for very few exceptions, the Thief lives and dies by active defenses and quick decisions. As I only have Core Thief, I have no blocks. I virtually have no Protection, Retaliation, Resistance, or Stability. I don't even have a 3rd dodge. Without a specific trait in Acrobatics, there is no auto-immunity. Without a specific trait in Shadow Arts, there is no passive Stealth. Without Stealth and Shadow Arts, there is no damage mitigation outside of Weakness on the target.

 

Thirdly, I am drawn to the Ninja/Assassin/Rogue class. Glass Cannon. Fragile, but lethal. Agile and stealthy. Independent and self-sufficient. While definitely not durable as fighter class, it is extremely deadly in its own way. It does not do well against groups, but it is the most feared among anyone who gets caught alone.

 

The problem is that the Thief does not live up to the last part. Getting a Thief to engage you 1v1 is an almost guaranteed victory... either by killing it or by forcing it to run away. It doesn't even matter if the Thief completely jumps you by surprise, unless you're afk, you can react and counter. Again, I know this is true by being a glass and still being able to survive and counter. If I can do it, anyone can. This is especially true if you're sitting on a point, and the Thief wants it.

 

Again, I'm not trying to say that every profession should be able to do every thing. As for me personally, I don't care anything about supporting teammates... other than to stab a distracted enemy in the back. I don't want to enter into team fights. There are too many enemies with too much AoE and too many tracking attacks and too much damage. It doesn't make sense for a Rogue to do such a thing. I don't want to be a healer. I don't want to give boons. I don't want to evade around a point, making 5 enemies chase me. I don't want super magic that can hurt everyone within a certain radius.

 

What I do want to do is to be able to ambush and assassinate lone targets. I want to be able to go head-to-head 1v1 on point, though even at a manageable disadvantage. I want a lone enemy on point to be constantly searching for my Thief icon on the map, and sweating every moment it's not visible... knowing that if I can get the first shot in, he is going to have a hard fight on his hands, yet if he can get the first shot in, then it's pretty much over.

 

Basically, I'm tired of the Thief being a laughing stock when it comes to fighting. I don't want to be demanded to change characters every time there is a 2nd Thief on the team. I don't want to have to run away from EVERYBODY except other Thieves. I don't want to have to run to only empty points. I don't want to die in 2-3 hits by someone it takes me 10+ hits to kill even when I'm glass. I want to be more than a horsefly with a painful, annoying sting, but easily swatted away or smashed.

 

Give me high single-target damage... especially when I'm glass. More damage than others have when they are not glass. I don't care if I get a debuff when I'm near more than one enemy... or even near an ally. Heck, give me a debuff for each enemy and ally around. Just give me the high enough reward that justifies the high risk. Again, I'm not saying make the Thief an almighty hunter, but give it back some of its teeth. Make a 1v1 a fast, brutal affair, but make it balanced. Someone will die, and it will take a very short time to find out whom it will be. However, make it an unknown, and not a given that it will be the Thief.

 

How can this be done? So many ways. So many simple ways. And it doesn't have to be done completely through damage increases. Going back to capability... versatility. For example, removing the asinine 1-second Stealth Attack cooldown. Removing the weapon-swap cooldown (or reducing it to 1-second) due to the Thief having a shared-initiative pool. Restoring Black Powder to pulse Blind every second. Allowing a small grace period (1-3 seconds) before Stealth removes the ability to contest a point... a Thief should not literally lose access to an entire traitline and special attacks when trying to contest a point.

 

In PvP, I hardly ever Stealth because it is usually more trouble than it's worth. Taking Shadow Arts means no Critical Strikes, meaning I lose most of my damage. D/P stealthing takes 3/5 of my initiative, and the only thing I gain in a fight is to force an opponent to lose targeting. At the same time, I lose point control. Backstabbing has been inferior (less efficient) to Shadowshot/AA for a while.

 

Alas, I do apologize for the long answer and rant. But that's how I see it, I suppose. PvP usually comes down to team fights anyway. A Thief has and should have very little business in them. So being able to go 1v1 would be ideal, even if slightly disadvantaged. That would keep Thieves out of where they don't belong, but it would at least give them a place to belong... one that is a near-level playing field. Alone, but not afraid. Quite capable. A source of fear, but not of despair.

[Jski.6180]

Wvw seems the same if any thing scorge got a buff for over all in wvw so what went wrong is nothing was fixed other the bug that where oddly balancing the game more then most of there balance patches.

 

Added note this is only in the spvp forms not wvw and there is next to no talk in wvw so there is something off about these forms i think.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> They are more builds that aren't viable anymore that brand new builds that could be interesting in spvp now .... So for me , it's not a good patch

>

> For People that needs examples .... here they are:

>

> # Out

> full support Firebrand

> full support Tempest

> Condi bruiser weaver

> Support/bunker herald (yeah was still a decent thing)

> Not sure the S/D discharge holosmith is a thing anymore... need to ask to engineer players

> FA weaver is debatable : got nerfed in term of dmg cause no more support but why other burst builds didn't? I wonder

> Blood Scourge ofc !

> (maybe D/P thief but i'm not an expert and was maybe already "dead" before the patch)

>

> # In

> Power Reaper

> Paladin? scrapper

> Power Mesmer (since last rework patch tho)

>

> # Come Back

> Condi mesmer seems like ... even if i don't get how

>

>

> PS: Feel free to add/remove builds if you disagree or if I forgot /made a mistake about something.

I'm going to disagree with that entire list

>#Out

Blood Scourge is still meta. Support firebrand is still meta. Support Tempest has not been meta since PoF. Bunker Herald hasn't been a thing since the knockback spam was nerfed. Power Herald is still in the same place it's been since PoF. FA weaver is still the best ele build and still has strong burst. D/p thief was not dead prepatch as it was only considered "weak" due to being worse than s/d thief. Postpatch it's still up in the air.

 

>#In

Power Reaper is by no means "in." The only good matchup Power Reaper has is against Renegade and Tempest, neither of which are in the meta. Power Reaper lacks the sustain for a teamfight and lacks the target stick to kill any of the common meta classes. Power Mesmer has been in the meta since the Mesmer rework.

Scrapper is actually in a decent spot post patch.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > They are more builds that aren't viable anymore that brand new builds that could be interesting in spvp now .... So for me , it's not a good patch

> >

> > For People that needs examples .... here they are:

> >

> > # Out

> > full support Firebrand

> > full support Tempest

> > Condi bruiser weaver

> > Support/bunker herald (yeah was still a decent thing)

> > Not sure the S/D discharge holosmith is a thing anymore... need to ask to engineer players

> > FA weaver is debatable : got nerfed in term of dmg cause no more support but why other burst builds didn't? I wonder

> > Blood Scourge ofc !

> > (maybe D/P thief but i'm not an expert and was maybe already "dead" before the patch)

> >

> > # In

> > Power Reaper

> > Paladin? scrapper

> > Power Mesmer (since last rework patch tho)

> >

> > # Come Back

> > Condi mesmer seems like ... even if i don't get how

> >

> >

> > PS: Feel free to add/remove builds if you disagree or if I forgot /made a mistake about something.

> I'm going to disagree with that entire list

> >#Out

> Blood Scourge is still meta. Support firebrand is still meta. Support Tempest has not been meta since PoF. Bunker Herald hasn't been a thing since the knockback spam was nerfed. Power Herald is still in the same place it's been since PoF. FA weaver is still the best ele build and still has strong burst. D/p thief was not dead prepatch as it was only considered "weak" due to being worse than s/d thief. Postpatch it's still up in the air.

>

> >#In

> Power Reaper is by no means "in." The only good matchup Power Reaper has is against Renegade and Tempest, neither of which are in the meta. Power Reaper lacks the sustain for a teamfight and lacks the target stick to kill any of the common meta classes. Power Mesmer has been in the meta since the Mesmer rework.

> Scrapper is actually in a decent spot post patch.

 

Who talked about meta here? (except you of course) It's not cause the build isn't meta that It can't do good and be able to carry. And remember the meta as you saying it depends on what people plays the most. If ppl doesn't play scourge at all , then revenant will be 100% meta (or condi mesmer) That's why I 'm never talking about the meta here ...especially when ppl aren't even in the same world server(NA or EU) or in the same gamemode (ranked/unranked)

 

SO you can disagree ... it's fine I also disagree myself one week later so... But at least try to argue without deforming what i'm saying

[Rufo.3716]

Could we just get a test server already and avoid this crap all together?

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

*snip* Post was too long to reasonably quote

 

To respond to this, Anet is trying to make classes that are not fun to fight against weaker. No, they haven't done this with the Mirage yet, but it's slowly happening, much like it did with the thief. I don't think you realize the frustration that it is for players that don't know thief to fight one, putting you at a larger advantage than you realize. Statistically, you should have more damage. Yes, it would be nice to be able to 1v1, but in reality, you are only going to be able to compete with lower skilled or unknowing players. I've recently been on S/D thief a lot as I kept dying to them on any class. Sure, call me a noob, tell me to leave PvP, throw all of the insults, I don't care. I died a lot to them as they APPEARED to be invincible. Once playing one, I quickly learned the weaknesses of it, and have learned to play around a lot of it. Thing is, that most of what arenanet seems to cater to is the lower skilled players in mid gold and under. If something isn't fun to play against, they slowly knock it down. (Anyone screaming MIRAGE, SCOURGE, WHATEVER OP, is getting ignored. They are slowly changing it, as they have done for years, so don't bother). No one liked getting ganked by a thief, so they are making it less common. No one likes getting one shot by a mesmer, so that's starting to slowly be nerfed. Anything that's frustrating to play against, including warriors and what seems like (but isn't) permanent block/invulns while doing massive damage is getting toned down. Is thief getting knocked too far down realistically? Yes. But to what players FEEL like, it's still strong on the other end. Then again, Mirage isn't NEARLY as busted as it seems on the receiving end as people think it is, but they see people scream and listen to them. Fact is that thief and one shot mirage aren't fun to play against, so they get hit. Any builds that are just plain bad, but still frustrating, don't get touched, such as trap dragon hunter. Once you learn to dodge the pull, you just laugh at them, so they don't bother nerfing that because it's super easy to learn to counter. Thief takes time to sort how to fight. If you disagree, please watch countless WvW streams of thieves killing all of the things simply because people don't know how they work. I'm sure there is some PvP as well, but I love watching thieves kill a whole group of players.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"thatdarnkatz.7168"

 

I do believe you speak the truth... which is a quite unfortunate reality. Thank you for the explanation.

 

To be honest, I do wish there were at least some options given to the Thief to be less "frustrating/annoying" but more effective (at least in PvP). A lot of people complain about Stealth, but as you said, you felt frustration about S/D Thieves, so it seems that even when a Thief player chooses to play the extreme opposite playstyle, they still can't lose the reputation.

 

I used to love watching Yishis' Thief videos where he's completely outnumbered, but still extremely successful because he had so much game knowledge. I especially loved the commentary. But I do believe he stopped making them because the Thief changed so drastically.

 

For me personally, WvW is what drew me to the game. But being a newbie, I didn't know how to fight... so I would always look for a lone target. Unfortunately, it was quite rare for me to find, and it took so much time between fights, it felt like I would never get enough opportunity to improve. So I decided to try PvP since it was guaranteed to have a lot of combat. I've learned a lot there, and the intention was always to go back to WvW. However, with the HoT launch, there were so many changes and so much community disapproval of the changes, that the motivation to play it died out. Especially with me stuck as a Core Thief, being outclassed by elites that I couldn't even learn how they worked myself made it even more unmotivating.

 

Hopefully, I'll get remotivated to play WvW again. I must confess that I do enjoy the immediate, achievable goal in PvP (gain 500 points within 15 minutes) that is lacking in WvW. I just wish the Thief had more to do than run away from everyone in Conquest... and more combat ability than to +1.

 

Oddly enough, I seem to be finding more combat success running with the new Wizard amulet and slotting Thieves Guild... which is a far cry from the traditional Power/Crit Thief. But that's the state of the game today.

 

Who knows what will happen next? I am rather surprised they gave the Thief lethal long-range capability with Deadeye, though... especially with all the Stealth. It seems to be counterproductive to making the Thief less frustrating to fight. So Anet really does have me confuzzled.

[shippage.1983]

Lol every patch is the worst patch ever according the the forums.

[otto.5684]

> @"shippage.1983" said:

> Lol every patch is the worst patch ever according the the forums.

 

Well, PoF release was the worst balance patch ever. Every patch since made small adjustments to fix issues, but can be described as baby steps at best.

 

And honestly, there are things that are broken on design level, like renegade. No amount of tweaking can fix this unless there is a redesign. And to be clear it is extremely terrible. And this is not a renegade only issue. Holo, scourge, FB and SB have design issues that go beyond number tweaking.