Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[roamzero.9486]

Im sorry but the moment people start to call for a class not to get nerfed, you know it's OP and needs to be nerfed.

[Mortifera.6138]

just listen to the pros, they'll tell you not to nerf their class, that it's x that is really overpowered.

[Julius Seizure.4985]

Don’t worry. I don’t think the developers are capable of adequately nerfing the Mesmer class. They will always undervalue dodge, damage immunity, stealth, and mobility in this game— so Mesmer is forever safe.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > Confounding Suggestion got a 15 sec cd in pvp and wvw what is a big nerf. Making it not proc for 100% will higher the rng what is never good in competitive modes, the mesmer should still be able to work with the stun he can't do it when it procs randomly. Try it first with a 10 secs cd would have been a better way, with 15secs it is clearly not op in any way anymore. The only problem i see in the mirage traitline is Elusive Mind, the nerf was done in a bad way indeed. The stunbreak should just get removed completely. Otherwise i mostly agree with your post.

>

> Genuine question: If they changed CS to a 10 sec cd and added a little indicator on the player that the trait was up do you think that'd be too obvious as a tell for the trait to be used or would it still be a worthwhile choice for mesmer builds? If not just adding an indicator and leaving it at 5 seconds would be fine for me (Other people may say it's still too strong but once every 5 seconds isn't too bad imo)

 

I would not mind an indicatior for traits ICDs being up again but then you have to do it for every trait on every class to be fair, means also on warrior he should get a buff symbol when his passive endure pain is rdy again. It could help both sides the player itself and the opponent but Anet will never do this i guess. On the other side you cannot see cds on weaponskills/ utilities from your target either and there are other ccs being very fast applied or with no rly good animation (fresh air ele for example) you also can't see if the skill is still on cd or not. Because having all trait ICDs in mind in additon to all weapon and utilityskills is more of a memory challenge than actually a skillchallenge i would not mind to give buffs for trait icds.

But in the end i think CS with 10 or even 15 secs cd is more than enough of a nerf. Maybe they can give us the mantra charge buffs back as a compensation for its instant and max-range nature. I have no clue why they removed them, maybe because of what i said, you can't see cds from any other utility on other classes either, so they removed it from mantras too, but i don't think it was any big disadvantage for the mesmer because they are instant and with max range. And the charge buff gave the mesmer's opponent something they could work with, what i found pretty fair.

[musu.9205]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

> > > >

> > > > No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

> > >

> > > Well then, I see I have made an error about the Blackjack (I abbreviated and filters didn't like my abbreviation XD) thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

> >

> > If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... It must be an Elephant?

> >

> > All classes but Rev/Thief are my mains... Mesmer is OP in some areas but people like OP have the torches ready to burn the whole class down.

> > The most OP thing about Mesmer will never get nerfed either and that's the psychological effect it has on players because it is a class that can literally confuse the player if played right.

>

> I admit to being wrong about something and explain why that mistake doesn't apply to this instance...

> people look at it and try to make smart kitten comments....

> and everyone wonders why nothing gets done?

>

> Just because OP wants mesmer nerfed doesn't mean every time he says the word "mesmer" he is going on a crusade against the class. He shared a friend's stream for the sake of getting him viewers and you all want to crucify him for sharing a mesmer main's stream because he said somewhere else he wants mes nerfed? Really? I agree mes needs nerfs and I agree most people don't know kitten about the class and are crying for absurd nerfs but be reasonable. It's a stream link, get the kitten over it

 

this argument is so childish , op had and has the intention to complain about mesmer (and mind i say without any clue about whats broken about mes). its a stream link with a title that strongly hint on whats op opinion on mesmer . don't cut off half of post to support what you said .

ask everyone in real life how "Mesmer Main Clapping everyone in Unrank/At's :"D" does not sound like mesmer is op in another way .

i get its internet so we can have those pointless argument for what each word exactly means , do you feel you could seriously ask that question in real life , now come on , be honest and don't make yourself look silly .we are not in some stupid political debate.

as for op , its simply annoying no matter how different you made those posts , everyone knows what u meant / intended . and are you seriously thinking anet is going to listen to some annoying posts just because they are covered by different words .they are not that stupid please .

[musu.9205]

i don't know you guys

but imagine you are a dev , you open pvp forum and see some posts about mesmer issues , you are like "oh i might need to check what's everyone opinion on mesmer after recent patch "

you click those posts and what u read are just emotional words , random claim like infinite evade , stealth , block , boon , clones and stunbreak .

you say to yourself "it seems people dislike mesmer now but i can't get any useful information about what's op , since those are not facts , guess i will move on "

 

and you guys wonder why anet didn't do anything about mesmer based on your very "informative "posts .

btw there is one post with at least more information about what each mesmer trait line does , the op opinion may be wrong for some , but at least he offered needed information to argue with .or you guys can keep going .

[kappa.2036]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> Infinite clone spam? Where? Give it to me! Legit you're just warping the fact that phantasms turn into clones to suit your narrative.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/34113/anet-enough-updated-with-picture

EZ CLONES

[Ario.8964]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > Confounding Suggestion got a 15 sec cd in pvp and wvw what is a big nerf. Making it not proc for 100% will higher the rng what is never good in competitive modes, the mesmer should still be able to work with the stun he can't do it when it procs randomly. Try it first with a 10 secs cd would have been a better way, with 15secs it is clearly not op in any way anymore. The only problem i see in the mirage traitline is Elusive Mind, the nerf was done in a bad way indeed. The stunbreak should just get removed completely. Otherwise i mostly agree with your post.

> >

> > Genuine question: If they changed CS to a 10 sec cd and added a little indicator on the player that the trait was up do you think that'd be too obvious as a tell for the trait to be used or would it still be a worthwhile choice for mesmer builds? If not just adding an indicator and leaving it at 5 seconds would be fine for me (Other people may say it's still too strong but once every 5 seconds isn't too bad imo)

>

> I would not mind an indicatior for traits ICDs being up again but then you have to do it for every trait on every class to be fair, means also on warrior he should get a buff symbol when his passive endure pain is rdy again. It could help both sides the player itself and the opponent but Anet will never do this i guess. On the other side you cannot see cds on weaponskills/ utilities from your target either and there are other ccs being very fast applied or with no rly good animation (fresh air ele for example) you also can't see if the skill is still on cd or not. Because having all trait ICDs in mind in additon to all weapon and utilityskills is more of a memory challenge than actually a skillchallenge i would not mind to give buffs for trait icds.

> But in the end i think CS with 10 or even 15 secs cd is more than enough of a nerf. Maybe they can give us the mantra charge buffs back as a compensation for its instant and max-range nature. I have no clue why they removed them, maybe because of what i said, you can't see cds from any other utility on other classes either, so they removed it from mantras too, but i don't think it was any big disadvantage for the mesmer because they are instant and with max range. And the charge buff gave the mesmer's opponent something they could work with, what i found pretty fair.

 

I'll be honest, I'd love it if anet did that with passives like endure pain. It'd add another level of skill in determining what cd's to use on opponents and how aggressively you want to play against someone. It'd be a ton of work but they've done it for a few traits already so I can see them maybe doing something like that in the future.

[Ario.8964]

> @"musu.9205" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

> > > > >

> > > > > No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

> > > >

> > > > Well then, I see I have made an error about the Blackjack (I abbreviated and filters didn't like my abbreviation XD) thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

> > >

> > > If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... It must be an Elephant?

> > >

> > > All classes but Rev/Thief are my mains... Mesmer is OP in some areas but people like OP have the torches ready to burn the whole class down.

> > > The most OP thing about Mesmer will never get nerfed either and that's the psychological effect it has on players because it is a class that can literally confuse the player if played right.

> >

> > I admit to being wrong about something and explain why that mistake doesn't apply to this instance...

> > people look at it and try to make smart kitten comments....

> > and everyone wonders why nothing gets done?

> >

> > Just because OP wants mesmer nerfed doesn't mean every time he says the word "mesmer" he is going on a crusade against the class. He shared a friend's stream for the sake of getting him viewers and you all want to crucify him for sharing a mesmer main's stream because he said somewhere else he wants mes nerfed? Really? I agree mes needs nerfs and I agree most people don't know kitten about the class and are crying for absurd nerfs but be reasonable. It's a stream link, get the kitten over it

>

> this argument is so childish , op had and has the intention to complain about mesmer (and mind i say without any clue about whats broken about mes). its a stream link with a title that strongly hint on whats op opinion on mesmer . don't cut off half of post to support what you said .

> ask everyone in real life how "Mesmer Main Clapping everyone in Unrank/At's :"D" does not sound like mesmer is op in another way .

> i get its internet so we can have those pointless argument for what each word exactly means , do you feel you could seriously ask that question in real life , now come on , be honest and don't make yourself look silly .we are not in some stupid political debate.

> as for op , its simply annoying no matter how different you made those posts , everyone knows what u meant / intended . and are you seriously thinking anet is going to listen to some annoying posts just because they are covered by different words .they are not that stupid please .

 

For the sake of argument: If I saw something like "Thief main dominating players in at's and unranked" or "engi main destroying players in at's" I'd be very interested to see what is going down. This gets me thinking that maybe this player is significant because of how severely it's stated they beat everyone. The only childish thing about this entire thread is the fact that you guys are trying to extract some nerf request out of a thread title that is promoting another player's gameplay. It's like you guys keep saying, there's plenty of nerf mesmer threads out there, don't make this another one. Just let people enjoy a guy's stream, this thread will be what you allow it to be.

[Marxx.5021]

The real problem when it comes to balancing is the time until a PvP related issue gets fixed followed by the way it gets addressed. Often an easy fix gets implemented which just removes viable builds or traits.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Mesmer is fine if there is at least one challenge class. It does not have to be mine, but there should be 1 that can consistently make a mes worry.,

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > >

> > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > >

> > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> >

> > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

>

> promoting a way for people to tune into someone channel and having some absurd title is what baits people into checking it out.... If you honestly think this and the black jack post i made were "complaints" then you clearly missed out on my actually complaint about the class. It ended up reaching over 6 pages because it was an actual complaint about it.

>

> Thanks for checking on shorts and black jack the goal of viewers was reached and it's all we wanted.

 

Congrats on reaching viewer goal. Nice idea...lol.

[Applesauce.5271]

the forced target swapping and the stealthing coupled with the clones makes it so much worse

[Lordrosicky.5813]

They should leave the traits alone and just nerf f1-f4.

[michelada.2947]

> @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> They should leave the traits alone and just nerf f1-f4.

 

Of course not, they have to change the entire class, no one has fun playing against mesmers , sometimes you dont even know what the hell kill you and when you try to fight back the defensive mechanics they have are so broken, they can deal damage while defending and no other class can do that.

 

the clone mechanic has to be improved so it's more manable for the player to do something against , stealth has to be changed too.

[Shirlias.8104]

Clones + stealth are a indeed a pain, also because this game lacks a last target mechanic, which makes stealth working even better than the 2/3 sec disorienting it is meant for.

 

But imho, and I am refering not only to mesmer class but every class, the main problem comes from the possibility to deal dmg while invul.

 

And here ofc mesmer is king.

Skills like shield stance and renewed focus are balanced, because don't allow you to attack, except some instant skills maybe.

 

Elixir s and mist form work the same way, but it allows you to terminate enemies while invulnerable, and this could be fixed by making skills like the previous 2.

 

Dodge too.

If you dodge, you only dodge avoiding attack.

 

That's why a class with a F4 which allows you to deal dmg while invul, and a tons of dodge because of Vigor of heal, f1-F4 skills and eventually ok crit, it's allowed to create problems.

 

 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > I thought Vaans was dishonored for 3 months, why do I see him on stream

>

> He sold his main account and plays on new one.

 

pretty sure I see him in wvw with the same title ect just last week on FSP.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

 

> -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

 

Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

 

I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

 

 

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> Here is some constructive feedback..

> diversity in builds makes the game interesting to play..

>

> When we can tell each players build before a game starts.. something is very very...

> boring..

 

I would welcome a rework for all classes to be able to use all trait lines like Mesmer, starting with Elementalist.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Mesmer is fine if there is at least one challenge class. It does not have to be mine, but there should be 1 that can consistently make a mes worry.,

 

I disagree, it can't be a single class that counters them. It would need to depend on the build the player is using. So if they changed evade on weapon skills to be block on weapon skills, to counter mesmer evade spam you would simply need to take skills that are unblockable.

 

Right now the biggest issue with mesmer is the visual clutter from AI, followed by difficulty in seeing what they are doing. For example you can see clearly when someone dodge rolls, but its much more difficult to see mirage cloak dodge. Holosmith is a perfect example of a excellent designed profession that you can visually make out what its doing. It turns blue when they are in Photon Forge mode, when they began to overheat they start to turn orange/red color. Their skills are highly telegraphed but powerful, making the player able to intelligently react to them. All of their skills have very telling animations. But they are still a strong profession. Mirage and to a extent Mesmer's basic design is the polar opposite.

 

I believe a lot of the frustration that players have with Mesmer is simply that they are very hard to visually read. Anet needs to fix that.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Just undo the UC nerf and all the auto attack nerfs for thief and all is well.

>

> Edit: and take the cooldown off stealth attacks bro

>

>

>

> **Okay, I know some expected more, so I will give it.

> The mesmer may indeed be fine, but a few classes can't really compete. I won't give a list but I bet others can.

> How could you class be adjusted to make the fight more fair? Leave poor mesmer baby alone.**

 

okay so nerf mesmer with 90% and limit the phant to 2 get it. Im not even good at mesmer and i can beat people with juist pressing buttens. i have less hten 4 hour on mesmer and kill people with ez, so that says it all that the class is broken and mesmer is really not my play style.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Mesmer is fine if there is at least one challenge class. It does not have to be mine, but there should be 1 that can consistently make a mes worry.,

>

> I disagree, it can't be a single class that counters them. It would need to depend on the build the player is using. So if they changed evade on weapon skills to be block on weapon skills, to counter mesmer evade spam you would simply need to take skills that are unblockable.

>

> Right now the biggest issue with mesmer is the visual clutter from AI, followed by difficulty in seeing what they are doing. For example you can see clearly when someone dodge rolls, but its much more difficult to see mirage cloak dodge. Holosmith is a perfect example of a excellent designed profession that you can visually make out what its doing. It turns blue when they are in Photon Forge mode, when they began to overheat they start to turn orange/red color. Their skills are highly telegraphed but powerful, making the player able to intelligently react to them. All of their skills have very telling animations. But they are still a strong profession. Mirage and to a extent Mesmer's basic design is the polar opposite.

>

> I believe a lot of the frustration that players have with Mesmer is simply that they are very hard to visually read. Anet needs to fix that.

 

this is, the only issue i have is the miriage cloak and even having a symbol on their interface window is had to see as anet doesnt allow interface window size to be inlarged like they did on gw1

[Forgotten by Jana.7819]

Ha 10 illusion , thats ok , i played a tournament game 3 mes FB and a warrior , fb and 3 mes mid like 29 illusion hell ahahahah , it was like a horde going at you lol.

On the point ,they will change nothing .

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"musu.9205" said:

> i don't know you guys

> but imagine you are a dev , you open pvp forum and see some posts about mesmer issues , you are like "oh i might need to check what's everyone opinion on mesmer after recent patch "

> you click those posts and what u read are just emotional words , random claim like infinite evade , stealth , block , boon , clones and stunbreak .

> you say to yourself "it seems people dislike mesmer now but i can't get any useful information about what's op , since those are not facts , guess i will move on "

>

> and you guys wonder why anet didn't do anything about mesmer based on your very "informative "posts .

> btw there is one post with at least more information about what each mesmer trait line does , the op opinion may be wrong for some , but at least he offered needed information to argue with .or you guys can keep going .

 

there are 10 posts atleast that they give in 1 post more then enough of information that they can make mesmer a normal class. wihtout the emotion in the post but only facts and information.

[Kraitan.8476]

10+ different seperate posts discussing the current state & imbalance of mesmer. It would be nice if we could get at least a single reply or comment from Anets' side acknowledging the existence of this problem. aidsclass.