Curunen.8729 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. One thing I would like to recap on regarding having stunbreak on dodge, because on this note I do disagree with some fellow mesmers as to it being an issue - in my opinion as a feature this is perfectly fine. Edit - for the record yes I was one of those during pof beta that shared the sentiment that this trait would never make it into live release due to being ridiculously powerful - however over the last 5 months my opinion has changed. As a trait it allows more options for building and choosing other utility skills rather than being forced into the usual Blink/SoM (RIP Decoy), encouraging experimenting with utilities that aren't stunbreaks (in reality we only have Blink, SoM, Decoy, Sand through Glass (which is bad - nobody will waste a slot for that) and Mantra (only useful in wvw group comps)). It is an active stunbreak just like any other skill requiring one button press. Just as a thought exercise, what if they had put a stunbreak on heal, on a shatter, on a weapon skill or on jaunt... there would be no issue because all those are seen as "skills/abilities". With the nature of Mirage's dodge it is worth viewing it from the perspective of being just another "skill/ability". ie it is worth considering Mirage as having NO dodge, but instead a "skill" with pseudo ammunition mechanic that provides 1s evade frame among other things. And this skill can be traited to to many things. The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. If this frequency was reduced such that stunbreak access from the dodge keybind would be limited to at most every "x" number of seconds then I believe this would be balanced. But that would require decoupling the stunbreak cooldown from the dodge "cooldown" - so how to show this on the UI? Use the same white line moving around the skill as the ammunition mechanic uses to show the cooldown on a charge. This white line would move around the endurance bar exactly the same as the ammunition mechanic cooldown UI indicator, allowing the cooldown of stunbreak to be set at whatever is suitable, as well as enabling the mesmer player to know when it is available/off cooldown. They could even change the endurance bar colour when it is on cooldown (ie make it darker or something) and make it flash as it comes off cooldown, or some other effect in addition to the moving line. Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. -------- tl;dr: The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. *Elusive Mind now removes all of the user's boons when it is used to break a stun. *Elusive Mind now destroys all active illusions when it is used to break a stun. _because being stunned makes you forget_ Jk but I agree with this. I'm against trashing the class as a whole. I happen to play a power mes and would like to have that option without pulling my hair out. Id much prefer something be done with the damage phantasms do over this if I had a choice, though. I don't mind a stunbreak on dodge, it's just... on top of everything else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > /rant > > > Let me start with the not fines. 1. Why? Mirage generally has to use all of their mobility tools as well and blow their dodges as well to do so. 2. Single target teleports (which are the same as shadowsteps don't split hairs), there are 4, count em, 4 and I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Mirage Advance. Compared to Thieves who have 9. We have 3 sources of usable stealth (Mass Invis and Veil are just 'kick me' signs) whereas Thiefs have 10 not counting traits. Why can't we have more burst than you I don't understand? Because it makes you feel bad? 3. We have 1 invuln every 50 seconds, technically Elementalist has more invuln than we do. And if you just let a Mesmer pop Signet of Illusion so they can use distortion again you deserve it since it's a 1.25 second cast time. Less constant evade than Daredevil but okay. 4. Besides having to summon 3 clones point blank next to your enemy and hoping they don't have the presence of mind to cleave them or attack them as they start running at them 5. Exaggeration 6. Why, it's 450 range and an elite skill, should it be bad just because you don't like Mesmer 7. Eh 8. Why? Most thief shadowsteps are 1200 9. Mirage dodge does not move you the superspeed is to compensate for that and only works when moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > Mirage is not faster than a dp daredevil. > Mirage has not a single teleport directly to the target, they are all groundbased, need LoS and a Mirage has only 2 teleport skills (blink, jaunt uhm ok i forgot illusionary ambush) > Mind wrack is not a Mirage feature and makes the same dmg since release of the game, you rly ask for core mesmer mechanic nerf? Lmao. Even with traiting for a oneshot with mental anguish (nerfed already recently) and superiority complex trait (could need a little bit of nerf still) Mind wrack makes not as much dmg as a backstab without a clone. Mind wrack with clone is a totallly different skill with different mechanic and can't be compared that way. > The clone limit still is 3 (can ppl without any clue of mesmer class stop crying pls and get informed before?) > The sword leap with 600 range is fine, they could remove the clone it generates > The superspeed on dodge is very short and only compensate the missing mobility from the mirage dodge, thief can stack perma swiftness on dodge with the both most common builds. kitten you are complaining about? > > A thief complaining about mesmer is a good joke. > > What i think need to happen to make the few builds of mesmer which are op less broken: > > - Revert the new phantasm rule except the one change that phantasms turn into clones after their first attack (means phantasms can be shattered as phantasms and they count into the max 3 illusion up rule together with clones again but they still become clones after first attack when they live long enough and don't get shattered). The phantasm change was made for PvE mostly and is just broken in PvP/ WvW, even a phantasm limit of 3 will not solve any of the problems the phantasmspam builds cause. Compensate the mesmer in PvE only for not having perma up phantasm anymore in another way that is splitable from PvP/ WvW (like more dmg on skills or lower cds). > - means also revert the dmg- and effect-buffs a lot of phantasms got with the patch in PvP and WvW. A shattermesmer never let phantasms live longer than for one attack before shatter anyway, no need to buff them just because they turn into clones after one attack now (some utility phantasm giving perma bonus as long as they live like dmg reduction ofc need a reword because they don't make sense when they don't stay alive but don't do it by give them 10k dmg hits). Turn staff phantasm back to only one warlock which make the same dmg than before the patch. Staff has already a very high clone production without the mesmer need to trait for it. > > - Chaosline and Inspirationline are the only lines making mesmer ez and forgiving to play and that in a more or less passive way. Both lines should either get more nerfs than they got already or should get reworked into more active defense lines. Also a mesmer using one (or even both) of these traitlines should make remarkable less dmg (on shatters and phantasms). The more facetank ability (or even active defense) a build has the less dmg it should put out. Atm a choasline phantasm spam mesmer can still make insane dmg by being very hard to kill even when only played on average lvl. Dunno how to give less dmg to builds using defensive traitlines after the remove of statbonuses before hot release. Maybe implement somthing like 15-20 % less dmg on all skills per defensive line as addition to excisting minor traits. > > - the stunbreak on dodge should get removed completely, the recent nerf is just a bad solution, ofc better than nothing but do not rly solve the problem. > > > Btw for the one trying to quote helseth from today stream: he clearly said all he complains about of mirage was based only on the one build he was playing and he played the old condi mirage meta. He said even for the phantasm powerbuild it is a different thing. And he would be the first to tell you that a pure glass shatter mirage (means not build on phantasm spam and not using chaos or inspiration) is more or less trash (stunbreak on dodge the only issue here but even trash with that). Discern between builds and don't just cry unreflected about everything and pls get informed about the class before start crying for nerfs that literally means just delete mesmer/ mirage from the game. You're basically a meme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreedOfGod.9764 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > Let me start with the not fines. > > 1. Why? Mirage generally has to use all of their mobility tools as well and blow their dodges as well to do so. because it makes thieves feel useless. if we don't the most burst or the most mobility, what are we even good for? bag farms? stealth camping? > 2. Single target teleports (which are the same as shadowsteps don't split hairs), there are 4, count em, 4 and I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Mirage Advance. Compared to Thieves who have 9. We have 3 sources of usable stealth (Mass Invis and Veil are just 'kick me' signs) whereas Thiefs have 10 not counting traits. Why can't we have more burst than you I don't understand? Because it makes you feel bad? yes > 3. We have 1 invuln every 50 seconds, technically Elementalist has more invuln than we do. And if you just let a Mesmer pop Signet of Illusion so they can use distortion again you deserve it since it's a 1.25 second cast time. Less constant evade than Daredevil but okay. ele has some mobility and a lot of damage, but they're not as evasive as mirage. they should have more damage mitigation to stay alive. Mirage has everything though. invuln, stealth, evade, mobility, damage mitigation, burst, condi, why even play another class > 4. Besides having to summon 3 clones point blank next to your enemy and hoping they don't have the presence of mind to cleave them or attack them as they start running at them pretty easy to do when you teleport in from 450+450+450+600+1200 range > 5. Exaggeration obviously > 6. Why, it's 450 range and an elite skill, should it be bad just because you don't like Mesmer never said I didn't like mesmer, I just dont like how they're basically a better thief. Jaunt spamming is the problem, might as well just make it one 1350 range shadowstep. > 7. Eh aye > 8. Why? Most thief shadowsteps are 1200 not most, two. because i think mirage should have more close range jukes rather than came-the-kitten-out-of-no-where teleports. (yeah yeah who cares what i think mirage should be) > 9. Mirage dodge does not move you the superspeed is to compensate for that and only works when moving forward. didn't think of this, makes sense. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > *Elusive Mind now removes all of the user's boons when it is used to break a stun. > *Elusive Mind now destroys all active illusions when it is used to break a stun. > > _because being stunned makes you forget_ > > Jk but I agree with this. I'm against trashing the class as a whole. I happen to play a power mes and would like to have that option without pulling my hair out. > Id much prefer something be done with the damage phantasms do over this if I had a choice, though. I don't mind a stunbreak on dodge, it's just... on top of everything else... > > Even if you're j/k, the second one is an interesting and thematic idea which while it might be overkill/crazy, I wouldn't be opposed to. :) But yeah the most important thing that needs dealing with first is the phantasm mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > > > Lest this merging confuse you: There were about 8 threads about the state of the mesmer. We're merged those threads (and may add a few more) because the Devs **want** to read your feedback, but have asked to get it in one place to let them do that efficiently. > > > > There was almost as much mesmer spam on the PvP forums as a Chronophantasma Imagined Burden Contiuum Split Illusionary Berserker+Signet of the Ether, Illusionary Berseker / Continuum Split Ends Illusionary Berserker+Signet of the Ether, Illusionary Berseker combo. > > I know, right? :) > > But seriously, when a dev specifically asks for a merge, that means they're looking into reading your comments. The better we can keep things consolidated (and constructive!) the more valuable the thread will be. Even though I joke, it is greatly appreciated because this was getting ridiculous. > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > lmao 22 pages, mesmer is fine guys 4Head Let's be real. A good chunk of it is a L2P issue. I was just in a match where a ranger teammate ran into a 2v1 against a Mesmer and a Soulbeast early in the game, predictably got obliterated and then spent the rest of the match crying about "Oh man mesmers are Op." Like dude, you ran into a 2v1 what did you expect? That's the tier of players blaming mesmers for their lack of success. Even if mesmers were balanced, people would still be complaining about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: I'm done with people stupidity , you doing something to make trait work -> wow you dont even think/do anything to make it work. Doesnt matter think you about it or not you do your usual business as for example magebane tether , he trying to kill you , hit with bursts not because he exactly want to trigger tether but because you want to land your important skills . You whine about inspiration,really (which taken for cleanses that mesmer lack that hard and give up a trait line for it) Why you arent complaining about warrior using defense for AH which allow them absurd amount of facetanking and staying alive? Chaos mirage doesnt have that much might as before or insane damage as you say. Old system was good ? How come? Regardless of recieved stats players always went for best traits and gave 0 foks if they got bonus stats or not. Aids forum and its people ,what else to add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Its hard to believe that anyone is going to read 21 pages of back and forth arguments about mesmer opness. But i wish all those who do try the best of luck in that endeavour. Good luck. What needs to happen is a bot to collect all the posts with like +10 thumbs up or helpfulls and read those. Not everyones ideas here are worth the 21 page endeavour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > -Should honestly get an emergency nerf before the season starts or soon within it > > And that is the problem. It won't happen. We will be stuck the entire season or multiple seasons with Mesmer as it currently is. This is Anet's vicious balance cycle. They drop a balance patch, but do not address real issues and then we are forced to deal with it for many months. > > If Mesmer and Scourge were removed from spvp, then balance would actually be pretty good. > > > Exactly. Those of us on the revenant forums often complain too much about crap that doesn't matter, but one complaint that is totally valid is that rev gets emergency nerfs despite not even having a single top tier build. Brutality having no icd? Oh no! Can't offend the casual WvW zerg crowd! *Anet devs spring to action and release an emergency nerf for revenants days after the change*. Hardening persistence usable with Renegade? Oh no! Clearly Renegade is too stronk now. *Anet devs spring to action and emergency nerf vengeful hammers*. Ok, I know the latter one was a bug and technically should have been fixed but holy shit priorities batman throw the class a bone. Meanwhile, mesmers main problems wont be fixed for months likely. And that's the kind of thing that makes people just not want to play sPvP. We know it's OP. Anet knows it's OP. But nothing happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will de grijze jager.6594 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I know where to start with the nerfing of the mesmer limit hte phan to 3 that will do a lot and nerf the damage of gs skill 2, 3 and 4. those are the skills used it the 1 shot combo. Try a 10% nerf or so to see how it is then if it still a problem hot fix it wiht an other 5% or more. Like the devs said balancing is a moving target. So do more small balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Can we please get a longer cooldown on the *major* (not even grandmaster!) trait "Evasive Mirror? The requirement to trigger this trait is far too lenient for how effective it is. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evasive_Mirror Currently it has a 1.5s cooldown, yet the reflect lasts for 2s. Increasing the cooldown to 5s at the very minimum would allow a small amount of counterplay by ranged-projectile builds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answer the question, you from NA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > I'm done with people stupidity , you doing something to make trait work -> wow you dont even think/do anything to make it work. Doesnt matter think you about it or not you do your usual business as for example magebane tether , he trying to kill you , hit with bursts not because he exactly want to trigger tether but because you want to land your important skills . > You whine about inspiration,really (which taken for cleanses that mesmer lack that hard and give up a trait line for it) Why you arent complaining about warrior using defense for AH which allow them absurd amount of facetanking and staying alive? > Chaos mirage doesnt have that much might as before or insane damage as you say. > Old system was good ? How come? Regardless of recieved stats players always went for best traits and gave 0 foks if they got bonus stats or not. > Aids forum and its people ,what else to add Is this even english? O_o You always start insulting with pretty meaningless stuff in addition. I am not a mesmer hater nor a mesmer main, i try to be constructive and objective, you just write a lot but saying nothing, except ppl are stupid and its all a l2p issue when they touch the build you play more than you want it. Cringy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rym.1469 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Main issues I have with current Mesmer (Mirage, more specifically) are not even damage-related. It's more of it being incredibly annoying and unsatisfying to fight against. * The dodge/mirage cloak "animation". Or lack thereof. Removing a clearly distinguishable dodge animation from a game based on reading visuals in order to counterplay is very questionable. In place of it we get a slight blur. I'd like to see when my opponent is dodging without looking at his buff bar, thank you very much. If we can't get an animation, making this blur more noticeable would be appreciated. Seven pink clones on top of mesmer evading with a pink blur don't help. * Dodging while stunned should not be a thing, period. It's an awful design and honestly I don't know how this got past through. It's the bare basics of combat - if I land a stun, I should either force a cooldown or get a chance to apply pressure. Not see my hits miss because even though my opponent failed to counterplay he still gets an easy ride mistiming his dodges. For the love of god, with weapons in this game that are all about applying CC to pressure (Warrior's Hammer for example), how is this design any fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? > > Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. > > I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. So it is as i thought you just reply the wrong common sense from NA. It is a fact that sd hardcounter power mesmer lmao. I don't start to repeat what i said to all other thief builds. Can you even explain what changed that mesmer don't get countered by a thief anymore? The headshotspam by dp gets weaker vs mirage because they can dodge during cast. This makes a power mirage a harder matchup for a dp than a power chrono but still not a hard matchup. The mirage needs to use dodges to finish casts without being interrupted. The dp has enough dodges to avoid the good telegraphed main dmg sources of a powerr mes (berserker and gs2 shatter combo), after the mirage used dodge to secure casts the thief will evade ez anyway, the mesmer lacks in dodges to avoid the thieves attacks. Not to mention double use of op orb from steal. Without safespots to prevent the thief can port to the mesmer the mesmer has no chance when both player have same skill lvl. Even shorter said: every thief with a sb counters mesmer, with the bouncing autoattack and the cluster bombs it's very easy to cleave all illusions and the mesmer itself during you can spam dodges and the evade from sb 3. The way you write i more believe you switched to NA because EU roamer were too challenging for you tbh. Not that you can't find a lot of bad player in WvW also in EU... but nvm i get tired of these dispute, you cannot be convinced anyway i think, so just believe what you want. I will ignore you from now on because it's a waste of time to discuss with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > > > > *Elusive Mind now removes all of the user's boons when it is used to break a stun. > > *Elusive Mind now destroys all active illusions when it is used to break a stun. > > > > _because being stunned makes you forget_ > > > > Jk but I agree with this. I'm against trashing the class as a whole. I happen to play a power mes and would like to have that option without pulling my hair out. > > Id much prefer something be done with the damage phantasms do over this if I had a choice, though. I don't mind a stunbreak on dodge, it's just... on top of everything else... > > > > > > Even if you're j/k, the second one is an interesting and thematic idea which while it might be overkill/crazy, I wouldn't be opposed to. :) > > But yeah the most important thing that needs dealing with first is the phantasm mess. Turning EM into the opposite of counfounding suggestions would be more mesmer-y I feel, and also quite unique. Would at least allow you to continue maneuvering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me start with the not fines. > > > > 1. Why? Mirage generally has to use all of their mobility tools as well and blow their dodges as well to do so. > because it makes thieves feel useless. if we don't the most burst or the most mobility, what are we even good for? bag farms? stealth camping? > > 2. Single target teleports (which are the same as shadowsteps don't split hairs), there are 4, count em, 4 and I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Mirage Advance. Compared to Thieves who have 9. We have 3 sources of usable stealth (Mass Invis and Veil are just 'kick me' signs) whereas Thiefs have 10 not counting traits. Why can't we have more burst than you I don't understand? Because it makes you feel bad? > yes > > 3. We have 1 invuln every 50 seconds, technically Elementalist has more invuln than we do. And if you just let a Mesmer pop Signet of Illusion so they can use distortion again you deserve it since it's a 1.25 second cast time. Less constant evade than Daredevil but okay. > ele has some mobility and a lot of damage, but they're not as evasive as mirage. they should have more damage mitigation to stay alive. Mirage has everything though. invuln, stealth, evade, mobility, damage mitigation, burst, condi, why even play another class > > > 4. Besides having to summon 3 clones point blank next to your enemy and hoping they don't have the presence of mind to cleave them or attack them as they start running at them > pretty easy to do when you teleport in from 450+450+450+600+1200 range > > 5. Exaggeration > obviously > > > 6. Why, it's 450 range and an elite skill, should it be bad just because you don't like Mesmer > never said I didn't like mesmer, I just dont like how they're basically a better thief. Jaunt spamming is the problem, might as well just make it one 1350 range shadowstep. > > 7. Eh > aye > > 8. Why? Most thief shadowsteps are 1200 > not most, two. because i think mirage should have more close range jukes rather than came-the-kitten-out-of-no-where teleports. (yeah yeah who cares what i think mirage should be) > > 9. Mirage dodge does not move you the superspeed is to compensate for that and only works when moving forward. > didn't think of this, makes sense. > > <3 1a. You're not understanding the point of what I said though, you have to blow defensive tools to get away, same as anyone else. Although I do agree some of the hard evasion needs to be looked at like more endurance generation sort of in the vein of daredevil rather than mirrors although you can play around mirrors by just moving away from them. 2a. I don't have a response to that 3a. The only thing we have in spades there is evades, mobility and burst/condi, which are things that could be overtuned, but then again everyone was bitching about Condi Mirage before the phantasm change, just like everyone was bitching about Condi Chrono before the iReversion nerf(s). People like to bitch about Mesmer, even when we're not overtuned (Not saying we aren't now), but it's a trend. 4a. And now the Mirage has no escape tools, just dodge one Mind Wrack. 5a. point proven 6a. One of which is spammable so i don't understand your frustration. 7a. Sword Ambush I do have some problems with, I don't think it should have a clone gen on top of being a daze and a leap, it's a little much and I'd rather they'd take a look at it. 8a. Mirage has 2 out of nowhere teleports, Blink and iAmbush, both of which are on a reasonable cooldown like the 2 1200 range thief shadowsteps and neither removes 3 conditions (maybe Shadowstep (the thief utility not the mechanic), otherwise all of it is a short range juke (again aside from sword ambush which again I have issues with anyway). If you're mad Jaunt can be used multiple ways I'm gonna suggest get over it. 9a. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > > > > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? > > > > Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. > > > > I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. > > So it is as i thought you just reply the wrong common sense from NA. It is a fact that sd hardcounter power mesmer lmao. I don't start to repeat what i said to all other thief builds. Can you even explain what changed that mesmer don't get countered by a thief anymore? > > The headshotspam by dp gets weaker vs mirage because they can dodge during cast. This makes a power mirage a harder matchup for a dp than a power chrono but still not a hard matchup. The mirage needs to use dodges to finish casts without being interrupted. The dp has enough dodges to avoid the good telegraphed main dmg sources of a powerr mes (berserker and gs2 shatter combo), after the mirage used dodge to secure casts the thief will evade ez anyway, the mesmer lacks in dodges to avoid the thieves attacks. Not to mention double use of op orb from steal. Without safespots to prevent the thief can port to the mesmer the mesmer has no chance when both player have same skill lvl. > > Even shorter said: every thief with a sb counters mesmer, with the bouncing autoattack and the cluster bombs it's very easy to cleave all illusions and the mesmer itself during you can spam dodges and the evade from sb 3. > > The way you write i more believe you switched to NA because EU roamer were too challenging for you tbh. Not that you can't find a lot of bad player in WvW also in EU... but nvm i get tired of these dispute, you cannot be convinced anyway i think, so just believe what you want. I will ignore you from now on because it's a waste of time to discuss with you. > > Just to clarify onto this before the patch one of the reasons the meta landed on the chaos, illu, mirage line was because chrono would lose a lot to SD or at least that’s how Sind and Mischa’s duels went according to Sind. Basically non mirage builds was weak to SD thief but really it all depends on what build you run vs what they run, even one utility change can tip who has the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > > > > > > > *Elusive Mind now removes all of the user's boons when it is used to break a stun. > > > *Elusive Mind now destroys all active illusions when it is used to break a stun. > > > > > > _because being stunned makes you forget_ > > > > > > Jk but I agree with this. I'm against trashing the class as a whole. I happen to play a power mes and would like to have that option without pulling my hair out. > > > Id much prefer something be done with the damage phantasms do over this if I had a choice, though. I don't mind a stunbreak on dodge, it's just... on top of everything else... > > > > > > > > > > Even if you're j/k, the second one is an interesting and thematic idea which while it might be overkill/crazy, I wouldn't be opposed to. :) > > > > But yeah the most important thing that needs dealing with first is the phantasm mess. > > Turning EM into the opposite of counfounding suggestions would be more mesmer-y I feel, and also quite unique. Would at least allow you to continue maneuvering Sure I liked that solution of yours as it is certainly an interesting and somewhat thematic mechanic, which also forces EM into being a purely defensive survival trait given you wouldn't immediately be able to break cc into some offensive skill usage as you'd be self dazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > > > > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > > > > > > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? > > > > > > Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. > > > > > > I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. > > > > So it is as i thought you just reply the wrong common sense from NA. It is a fact that sd hardcounter power mesmer lmao. I don't start to repeat what i said to all other thief builds. Can you even explain what changed that mesmer don't get countered by a thief anymore? > > > > The headshotspam by dp gets weaker vs mirage because they can dodge during cast. This makes a power mirage a harder matchup for a dp than a power chrono but still not a hard matchup. The mirage needs to use dodges to finish casts without being interrupted. The dp has enough dodges to avoid the good telegraphed main dmg sources of a powerr mes (berserker and gs2 shatter combo), after the mirage used dodge to secure casts the thief will evade ez anyway, the mesmer lacks in dodges to avoid the thieves attacks. Not to mention double use of op orb from steal. Without safespots to prevent the thief can port to the mesmer the mesmer has no chance when both player have same skill lvl. > > > > Even shorter said: every thief with a sb counters mesmer, with the bouncing autoattack and the cluster bombs it's very easy to cleave all illusions and the mesmer itself during you can spam dodges and the evade from sb 3. > > > > The way you write i more believe you switched to NA because EU roamer were too challenging for you tbh. Not that you can't find a lot of bad player in WvW also in EU... but nvm i get tired of these dispute, you cannot be convinced anyway i think, so just believe what you want. I will ignore you from now on because it's a waste of time to discuss with you. > > > > > > Just to clarify onto this before the patch one of the reasons the meta landed on the chaos, illu, mirage line was because chrono would lose a lot to SD or at least that’s how Sind and Mischa’s duels went according to Sind. Basically non mirage builds was weak to SD thief but really it all depends on what build you run vs what they run, even one utility change can tip who has the advantage. Not true, i was in Sindrener stream when he dueled Misha, during Misha was playing Condi Mirage (before the nerfs) and inbetween even tried some pure glass power shatter mirage with gs. After the first 3 duels Misha won Sindrener figuerd out how to play vs it and Misha only could win sometimes after hard fights when abusing safespot with the staff-condimeta which not even get hardcountered by sd. A power mirage with way less perma spammable playstyle and better telegraphed skills was an easy kill even on Mishas lvl. When he abused safespots Sindrener just run out of range and when Misha left the spot he was just dead. Builds including chaos or inspiration are ofc in general more forgiving and easier to play and make the life also vs a thief easier but still a gs power mirage get mechanically countered by sd and even other thief-builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > > > > > > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > > > > > > > > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. > > > > > > So it is as i thought you just reply the wrong common sense from NA. It is a fact that sd hardcounter power mesmer lmao. I don't start to repeat what i said to all other thief builds. Can you even explain what changed that mesmer don't get countered by a thief anymore? > > > > > > The headshotspam by dp gets weaker vs mirage because they can dodge during cast. This makes a power mirage a harder matchup for a dp than a power chrono but still not a hard matchup. The mirage needs to use dodges to finish casts without being interrupted. The dp has enough dodges to avoid the good telegraphed main dmg sources of a powerr mes (berserker and gs2 shatter combo), after the mirage used dodge to secure casts the thief will evade ez anyway, the mesmer lacks in dodges to avoid the thieves attacks. Not to mention double use of op orb from steal. Without safespots to prevent the thief can port to the mesmer the mesmer has no chance when both player have same skill lvl. > > > > > > Even shorter said: every thief with a sb counters mesmer, with the bouncing autoattack and the cluster bombs it's very easy to cleave all illusions and the mesmer itself during you can spam dodges and the evade from sb 3. > > > > > > The way you write i more believe you switched to NA because EU roamer were too challenging for you tbh. Not that you can't find a lot of bad player in WvW also in EU... but nvm i get tired of these dispute, you cannot be convinced anyway i think, so just believe what you want. I will ignore you from now on because it's a waste of time to discuss with you. > > > > > > > > > > Just to clarify onto this before the patch one of the reasons the meta landed on the chaos, illu, mirage line was because chrono would lose a lot to SD or at least that’s how Sind and Mischa’s duels went according to Sind. Basically non mirage builds was weak to SD thief but really it all depends on what build you run vs what they run, even one utility change can tip who has the advantage. > > Not true, i was in Sindrener stream when he dueled Misha, during Misha was playing Condi Mirage (before the nerfs) and inbetween even tried some pure glass power shatter mirage with gs. After the first 3 duels Misha won Sindrener figuerd out how to play vs it and Misha only could win sometimes after hard fights when abusing safespot with the staff-condimeta which not even get hardcountered by sd. A power mirage with way less perma spammable playstyle and better telegraphed skills was an easy kill even on Mishas lvl. When he abused safespots Sindrener just run out of range and when Misha left the spot he was just dead. Builds including chaos or inspiration are ofc in general more forgiving and easier to play and make the life also vs a thief easier but still a gs power mirage get mechanically countered by sd and even other thief-builds. Fair enough I missed that stream and only heard about it on one of the follow up streams. I was just saying the reason Misha was playing chaos, illu, mirage was because anything else he died to SD thief at least. It was meant in addition to what you put not contradiction, I should have worded it more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > > > > > > > > > > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? > > > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. > > > > > > > > So it is as i thought you just reply the wrong common sense from NA. It is a fact that sd hardcounter power mesmer lmao. I don't start to repeat what i said to all other thief builds. Can you even explain what changed that mesmer don't get countered by a thief anymore? > > > > > > > > The headshotspam by dp gets weaker vs mirage because they can dodge during cast. This makes a power mirage a harder matchup for a dp than a power chrono but still not a hard matchup. The mirage needs to use dodges to finish casts without being interrupted. The dp has enough dodges to avoid the good telegraphed main dmg sources of a powerr mes (berserker and gs2 shatter combo), after the mirage used dodge to secure casts the thief will evade ez anyway, the mesmer lacks in dodges to avoid the thieves attacks. Not to mention double use of op orb from steal. Without safespots to prevent the thief can port to the mesmer the mesmer has no chance when both player have same skill lvl. > > > > > > > > Even shorter said: every thief with a sb counters mesmer, with the bouncing autoattack and the cluster bombs it's very easy to cleave all illusions and the mesmer itself during you can spam dodges and the evade from sb 3. > > > > > > > > The way you write i more believe you switched to NA because EU roamer were too challenging for you tbh. Not that you can't find a lot of bad player in WvW also in EU... but nvm i get tired of these dispute, you cannot be convinced anyway i think, so just believe what you want. I will ignore you from now on because it's a waste of time to discuss with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to clarify onto this before the patch one of the reasons the meta landed on the chaos, illu, mirage line was because chrono would lose a lot to SD or at least that’s how Sind and Mischa’s duels went according to Sind. Basically non mirage builds was weak to SD thief but really it all depends on what build you run vs what they run, even one utility change can tip who has the advantage. > > > > Not true, i was in Sindrener stream when he dueled Misha, during Misha was playing Condi Mirage (before the nerfs) and inbetween even tried some pure glass power shatter mirage with gs. After the first 3 duels Misha won Sindrener figuerd out how to play vs it and Misha only could win sometimes after hard fights when abusing safespot with the staff-condimeta which not even get hardcountered by sd. A power mirage with way less perma spammable playstyle and better telegraphed skills was an easy kill even on Mishas lvl. When he abused safespots Sindrener just run out of range and when Misha left the spot he was just dead. Builds including chaos or inspiration are ofc in general more forgiving and easier to play and make the life also vs a thief easier but still a gs power mirage get mechanically countered by sd and even other thief-builds. > > Fair enough I missed that stream and only heard about it on one of the follow up streams. I was just saying the reason Misha was playing chaos, illu, mirage was because anything else he died to SD thief at least. It was meant in addition to what you put not contradiction, I should have worded it more clear. Alright, understand^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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