bravan.3876 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want. > > > > Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW. > > No... if you cant counter attack it means that you just happen to be too far away. You can always run when targeted by a deadeye because the will have to mark you to 1 shot you **(that part is undeniable)** which gives you some counter play time. You cant do this with a mesmer. > More than likely if you dodged DJ there is enough time to react (remember DJ applies the revealed status meaning that the only way to re stealth is with the cantrip elite.) Which is also limited to 2 uses. > > Dont use perma stealth as an excuse either there was a point where mesmer could also do this which still makes them just as bad. > Thief requires some set up time and time for the mark to generate malice Mesmer requires nothing but 2 cast and 4 instant cast skills with no real waiting time involved. > These are not the same in terms of balance. > Exactly there are not the same in terms of balance so don't compared apples with oranges. That was exactly my point. Btw the daze comes right after the mark when played well as said. And there is no problem for a thief to just wait in stealth until the anti reveal elite is back up. I haven't met a deadeye until now, so i'm not even complaining about it. Just saying you can't compare, the thief clearly has other strengths aside from not needing 6 cooldowns for a oneshot. You can't compare that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer. > > There is a world of difference between a deadeye's survivability and dependence on positioning. But the actual way the top deadeye build plays is almost as bursty as mesmer, does it at a much farther range and has better access to stealth tanks to the elite cantrip and the Sniper's stealth kneel. Also, if DE uses an action camera, there is no laser :) But mesmer is still more broken lol. Wake up people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > > > Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want. > > > > > > Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW. > > > > No... if you cant counter attack it means that you just happen to be too far away. You can always run when targeted by a deadeye because the will have to mark you to 1 shot you **(that part is undeniable)** which gives you some counter play time. You cant do this with a mesmer. > > More than likely if you dodged DJ there is enough time to react (remember DJ applies the revealed status meaning that the only way to re stealth is with the cantrip elite.) Which is also limited to 2 uses. > > > > Dont use perma stealth as an excuse either there was a point where mesmer could also do this which still makes them just as bad. > > Thief requires some set up time and time for the mark to generate malice Mesmer requires nothing but 2 cast and 4 instant cast skills with no real waiting time involved. > > These are not the same in terms of balance. > > > > **This is not how the top deadeye build plays at all.** They will mark you and burst you as soon as they mark you with quickness enhanced Cursed Bullet and Three Round bursts. It is almost as instantly lethal as a Power Shatter mirage. They do not wait around for Malice to Death's Judgement you. They will then cleave your downed body extremely quickly with quickness boosted pistolwhips. > > There is a world of difference in Mirage's mobility and survivability that we can talk about. But actual effective deadeyes are as immensely lethal as Powershatter Mirages and have far more access to stealth. Correct to the Deadeye. While i don't see a problem in mirage mobility, still less disengage ability than a thief, still slower around the map than a dp daredevil. Mobility is one main feature from the class aside from the new instant dodge and the ambushes. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely and mirage is fine. Maybe delete the clone on sword ambush but that's it. Btw the best oneshot/ burst build is not mirage it is core mesmer. Only core can take all dmg traits, like mental anguis, superiority complex and double mind wrack. Second best oneshot/ burst build is also not mirage it is chrono, because chrono can do that twice. Oneshotting isn't a mirage specific problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer. > > > > There is a world of difference between a deadeye's survivability and dependence on positioning. But the actual way the top deadeye build plays is almost as bursty as mesmer, does it at a much farther range and has better access to stealth tanks to the elite cantrip and the Sniper's stealth kneel. > > Also, if DE uses an action camera, there is no laser :) > > But mesmer is still more broken lol. Wake up people! I did not know that about Deadeye. That's hilarious. Yes, mesmer is more broken than Deadeye. But if we're going to bring up deadeye as a positive, we should be talking about how they actually play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer. > Im sorry Ive never seen that happen dont blame me if i dont believe you. Cursed bullet is already a screw projectile that can only go down pathing but in all the time i spent blasting people with it from stealth it never hit anywher near 10k, Maybe a solid 4.8k at best Still ontop of that dead eye i eons easier to kill when you catch them out of stealth unlike mesmer. Because rifle makes them so immobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > > > Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want. > > > > > > Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW. > > > > No... if you cant counter attack it means that you just happen to be too far away. You can always run when targeted by a deadeye because the will have to mark you to 1 shot you **(that part is undeniable)** which gives you some counter play time. You cant do this with a mesmer. > > More than likely if you dodged DJ there is enough time to react (remember DJ applies the revealed status meaning that the only way to re stealth is with the cantrip elite.) Which is also limited to 2 uses. > > > > Dont use perma stealth as an excuse either there was a point where mesmer could also do this which still makes them just as bad. > > Thief requires some set up time and time for the mark to generate malice Mesmer requires nothing but 2 cast and 4 instant cast skills with no real waiting time involved. > > These are not the same in terms of balance. > > > > Exactly there are not the same in terms of balance so don't compared apples with oranges. That was exactly my point. > > Btw the daze comes right after the mark when played well as said. And there is no problem for a thief to just wait in stealth until the anti reveal elite is back up. I haven't met a deadeye until now, so i'm not even complaining about it. Just saying you can't compare, the thief clearly has other strengths aside from not needing 6 cooldowns for a oneshot. You can't compare that. Ok if all that time passed and its obvious you cant kill said thief then walk away lol. IF you are survived long enough that he has time to get his elite back and other several long cooldowns then you should have walked away. Leaving combat is an option if you have the mobility. Once again unlike mesmer / mirage who can chase your butt down for days with jaunt and blink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer. > > > > There is a world of difference between a deadeye's survivability and dependence on positioning. But the actual way the top deadeye build plays is almost as bursty as mesmer, does it at a much farther range and has better access to stealth tanks to the elite cantrip and the Sniper's stealth kneel. > > Also, if DE uses an action camera, there is no laser :) > > But mesmer is still more broken lol. Wake up people! Fact of the matter is they can be killed near instantly when making a mistake which is a con for using that build Mesmers have way too many "oops" buttons to cover their mistakes when they dont kill you on the first attempt. The damage is just as deadly but one has tons more survivability and mobility at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer. > > > Im sorry Ive never seen that happen dont blame me if i dont believe you. Cursed bullet is already a screw projectile that can only go down pathing but in all the time i spent blasting people with it from stealth it never hit anywher near 10k, Maybe a solid 4.8k at best > > Still ontop of that dead eye i eons easier to kill when you catch them out of stealth unlike mesmer. Because rifle makes them so immobile > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35533/mesmer-clone-amount-makes-player-models-disappear#latest You should not believe me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer. > > > Im sorry Ive never seen that happen dont blame me if i dont believe you. Cursed bullet is already a screw projectile that can only go down pathing but in all the time i spent blasting people with it from stealth it never hit anywher near 10k, Maybe a solid 4.8k at best > > Still ontop of that dead eye i eons easier to kill when you catch them out of stealth unlike mesmer. Because rifle makes them so immobile > > I've absolutely been hit with a 10k cursed bullets before. I'm certain that variant was using Assassin's mark to pump up the damage though. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35413/new-season-new-meta-new-deadeye-build-for-top-17-eu This is what the meta Deadeye looks like. It is immensely lethal. Deadeye do not sit around waiting for death's judgement. They will absolutely jump you as hard as a Greatsword mesmer and how fast they can blitz a downed body has to be seen to be believed. Like I said, if we're going to talk about deadeyes like they're a shiny version of balance with great tells, we should be talking about what you will actually see them do in the top 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35533/mesmer-clone-amount-makes-player-models-disappear#latest > > You should not believe me. You linked me to a bunch of screen shots of mesmers spawning shit everywhere lol Mesmer doing mesmer things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists. > > > > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell. > > > > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time. > > > > > > > > > > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell. > > > > > > > > > > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you. > > > > > > > > Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want. > > > > > > > > Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW. > > > > > > No... if you cant counter attack it means that you just happen to be too far away. You can always run when targeted by a deadeye because the will have to mark you to 1 shot you **(that part is undeniable)** which gives you some counter play time. You cant do this with a mesmer. > > > More than likely if you dodged DJ there is enough time to react (remember DJ applies the revealed status meaning that the only way to re stealth is with the cantrip elite.) Which is also limited to 2 uses. > > > > > > Dont use perma stealth as an excuse either there was a point where mesmer could also do this which still makes them just as bad. > > > Thief requires some set up time and time for the mark to generate malice Mesmer requires nothing but 2 cast and 4 instant cast skills with no real waiting time involved. > > > These are not the same in terms of balance. > > > > > > > Exactly there are not the same in terms of balance so don't compared apples with oranges. That was exactly my point. > > > > Btw the daze comes right after the mark when played well as said. And there is no problem for a thief to just wait in stealth until the anti reveal elite is back up. I haven't met a deadeye until now, so i'm not even complaining about it. Just saying you can't compare, the thief clearly has other strengths aside from not needing 6 cooldowns for a oneshot. You can't compare that. > > Ok if all that time passed and its obvious you cant kill said thief then walk away lol. IF you are survived long enough that he has time to get his elite back and other several long cooldowns then you should have walked away. Leaving combat is an option if you have the mobility. Once again unlike mesmer / mirage who can chase your butt down for days with jaunt and blink. Deadeye has mobility skills on rifle and leaving in a point capture mode is like losing the fight. Deadeye in 1v1 on a point is just like an annoying fly you can't kill it but you can both go more or less afk during you use LoS, You hold the point, the Deadeye is useless. No problem. Deadeyes strength is not contesting points in 1v1, he will be useless there until the opponent starts to fight him and get dazed to death. Deadeyes strength is poping out of stealth in teamfights high pressuring already busy ppl sitting on a safe spot or at least a point you need time to get there, so he can stealth already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35533/mesmer-clone-amount-makes-player-models-disappear#latest > > > > You should not believe me. > > You linked me to a bunch of screen shots of mesmers spawning kitten everywhere lol Mesmer doing mesmer things My bad. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27890/action-cam-on-thief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > I've absolutely been hit with a 10k cursed bullets before. I'm certain that variant was using Assassin's mark to pump up the damage though. > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35413/new-season-new-meta-new-deadeye-build-for-top-17-eu > > This is what the meta Deadeye looks like. It is immensely lethal. Deadeye do not sit around waiting for death's judgement. They will absolutely jump you as hard as a Greatsword mesmer and how fast they can blitz a downed body has to be seen to be believed. Like I said, if we're going to talk about deadeyes like they're a shiny version of balance with great tells, we should be talking about what you will actually see them do in the top 100. Thats nice and all but i still dont see any proof a 10k so ill be going back to what I was stating before. You guys are taking this out of context anyways i was making a simple comparison to 1 thing specifically the point is that mesmer dont have good tells (going into stealth is not a tell). The damage is high, Defensive options are great, Bursting via 2 cast then 4 instat cast combo that has no real tell is way too much and only one of the problematic issue with with the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > I've absolutely been hit with a 10k cursed bullets before. I'm certain that variant was using Assassin's mark to pump up the damage though. > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35413/new-season-new-meta-new-deadeye-build-for-top-17-eu > > > > This is what the meta Deadeye looks like. It is immensely lethal. Deadeye do not sit around waiting for death's judgement. They will absolutely jump you as hard as a Greatsword mesmer and how fast they can blitz a downed body has to be seen to be believed. Like I said, if we're going to talk about deadeyes like they're a shiny version of balance with great tells, we should be talking about what you will actually see them do in the top 100. > > Thats nice and all but i still dont see any proof a 10k so ill be going back to what I was stating before. You guys are taking this out of context anyways i was making a simple comparison to 1 thing specifically the point is that mesmer dont have good tells (going into stealth is not a tell). The damage is high, Defensive options are great, > Bursting via 2 cast then 4 instat cast combo that has no real tell is way too much and only one of the problematic issue with with the profession. > > Mesmer gs2 is one of the best tells in the game, same with gs4. Going in a 3 second stealth is the best warning tell you can get for a burst from mesmer. But i think you can't argue with ppl having problems to deal with a pure glass shatter mesmer with only active defensive tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > what do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%) > > > > > > > > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction > > > > > > > > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to. > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad. > > > > > > > > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it. > > > > > > > > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack? > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world. > > > > > > > > > > Yes i ask for revert all the phantasm changes except the one that make phantams turn into clones after one attack. Rework the utility phantasms wich only make sense when permanently up in a way that don't give them 10k hits and then its done. All skills/traits now give 2 phantasms instead one get revert/reworked to only give one phantasm. Phantasms count into the max limit of 3 illusions up (that is rly enough in terms of visual clutter) and make them able to get shattered as phantams if the player want to shatter them before they turn into clones. > > > > > > > > > > But ofc you can try it like you say and make these skills useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. If you think that is the correct way. I just don't see any reason for the new phantasm mechanic to exist in the first place. It was mostly made to prevent player in pve to summon 3 permanent phantasms and go afk until the npc boss is dead. For that it is enough that phantasms turn into clones after one attack. If you just nerf every trait and skill that never was an issue before that rework, so mesmer is limited to only 3 illusions up in this way then ok. The result will be the same, except that you just don't make traits useless for other builds than phantasmbuilds when you just revert the real problem and not traits wich never were an issue before the rework. I rly get tired of arguing, anet will find the worst way of balancing this broken mechanic anyway, so why i even waste my time... > > > > > > > > Before the rework phantasms were all completely useless in PvP but as shatter fodder except the Greatsword Phantasm. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether weren't a problem in PvP because Phantasms basically didn't do anything. It didn't actually increase Phantasm damage, in increased your ability to shatter. We'd actually reached a point in PvE where phantasms weren't worth using, period with the exception of Boonshare Chronomancer. The rework wasn't just about making shatters useful in long PvE encounters but also making Phantasms more impactful in general and I agree with both general impulses. Back before Path of Fire Arenanet gave all the Mesmer phantasms a unique spell the mesmer themselves would cast for this effect. The problem is that not only are a majority of phantasms extremely overtuned but a single trait and a single heal quadruples their damage. Once we fix Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether we can treat Phantasms like they really are; mesmer skills with unique delivery systems that add ammo for our class mechanic, and balance them accordingly. > > > > > > They were not completely useless, they just did their one attack what was good dmg already (pistol does good dmg, the weapon only not get used because not enough defensive and disengage potential when getting focused, zerker did good dmg, torch didn't do too much dmg because it is more a defensive weapon and somehow also condiweapon, focus made insane dmg when hit, sword offhand phantasm already hit like a truck, staff phantasm hit like a truck when it hit but the projectil was a bit slow etc). Mesmer class mechanic is shatters, a phantasm shouldnt do anything more than make one attack and then disappear. That is exactly what the new rules does. Phantasm turn into clones after one attack. No other changes were needed for pvp/wvw (except reword some utility phantasms which only make sense when permanent up). Phantasm spam builds shouldnt exist. Phantasm were a good ADDITIONAL dmg source already before patch. Nothing more they should be in a shatterbased build. > > > > > > But as said balance stuff like you say, balance around the problem and make traits not causing the base-problem useless in any other build not based on phantasm spam but don't start crying about less build-diversity for mesmers after pls. > > > > They _were_ useless except as shatter fodder. > > > In a shatterbased build that is exactly their job and nothing more. They do one attack and shattermesmers let the phantasms do their attack mostly because the dmg was good. It is just wrong that mesmer in PvP didn't use their phantasm anymore because they didn't do any dmg. And ofc staff hit like a truck when the target had some conditions on (you had to play staff correctly to get good dmg from the phantasm, what a stupid consept that something need knowledge/skill to get good...). I never had a problem to get the sword phantasm hit before the patch and focus got an immob in additon before the phantasm spawns, to make the chance of a hit higher, that already before the reword patch. Pistol did high dmg already and that on max range kitten. I played all these weapons myself, as a not main mesmer i didn't care for meta and just played what i had fun with. Pistol, sword offhand and gs berserker were the strongest phantasms in terms of dmg combined with the good chance to hit. Focus was more of a defensive weapon just like torch so less dmg or less chance to hit, balance that makes sense. > > Mesmer is a shatterclass (see class mechanic is shatters), phantasms shouldnt ever play a main part in any build, they do one attack and done, so everything is more or less shatter folder because mesmers mechanic is shatters. > Before the rework the top tier Mesmer builds ran staff because of it's kiting and defensive capabilities, Mainhand Sword for the mobility, and torch for it's stealth. Power Greatsword was occasionally seen around as well. None of those were used because of the capabilities of their phantasms. Phantasms were glorified clones. I would be shocked if any fight in PvP last season hinged on the Staff phantasm's attack. Sword, pistol and focus were extremely rare because the phantasms were not particularly good and certainly not worth having over Torch's stealth. You don't get to argue that "Oh phantasms were worthless before the rework and that's how they should be." and also "Phantasms were really strong before the rework." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Mesmer gs2 is one of the best tells in the game, same with gs4. Going in a 3 second stealth is the best warning tell you can get for a burst from mesmer. But i think you can't argue with ppl having problem to deal with a pure glass shatter mesmer. Not when its launched from stealth at 200 range there is not a tell if it pretty much hits you instantly. And the point of stealth is to avoid being seen aka cover obvious tells. Yes you can see the sword flying at you from a distance but what if the mesmer blinks behind you in close range while in stealth or blinks int close range in general mid winde up through gs2. There is literally nothing you can do about it. Unless you assume when it might hit you and dodge in advance which is not a true form of tell. I agree that gs2 has a obvious tell when its done from out side stealth there is no denying that it can be dodged every time. But you have ppl who act like doing it form 200 range in stealth still leaves a tell when thats not the case at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morts.5319 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 >  Taken from another thread but I think this is important. Mesmer can spam so many clones and phantasms so fast that the game engine can't keep up with the amount of models and can't load actual player models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > Mesmer gs2 is one of the best tells in the game, same with gs4. Going in a 3 second stealth is the best warning tell you can get for a burst from mesmer. But i think you can't argue with ppl having problem to deal with a pure glass shatter mesmer. > > Not when its launched from stealth at 200 range there is not a tell if it pretty much hits you instantly. And the point of stealth is to avoid being seen aka cover obvious tells. Yes you can see the sword flying at you from a distance but what if the mesmer blinks behind you in close range while in stealth or blinks int close range in general mid winde up through gs2. There is literally nothing you can do about it. Unless you assume when it might hit you and dodge in advance which is not a true form of tell. > > I agree that gs2 has a obvious tell when its done from out side stealth there is no denying that it can be dodged every time. > > But you have ppl who act like doing it form 200 range in stealth still leaves a tell when thats not the case at all. The tell is there but very short when in melee yes, in stealth but from 400 range you already have time to dodge. Btw nothing has a tell out of stealth when started in melee. Same with Holo elite and other high dmg stuff. The stealth itself is the best tell then. I wouldn't call it instant when i see a mesmer coming, reaching the 1200 range, going into stealth, i rly can expect a teleport oneshot try. Ofc the mesmer can bait a dodge with stealth and not attack at all but that is part of the mindgames making this game interesting. The only way it rly is instant and unpredictable is when the mesmer can stack stealth and go near to you and you never saw him before. That is most likely only possible with Mass Invis Elite in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Morts.5319" said: > >  > > Taken from another thread but I think this is important. Mesmer can also spam so many clones and phantasms so fast that the game engine can't keep up with the amount of models and can't load actual player models. I would never deny that the new phantasm spam mechanic is broken. But when i see ppl complaining about gs glass shattermesmer then it is just ridiculous. Btw that there are so many clones still is because the target outkited them, so they could not shatter. They will explode into nothing after a while when the player continue kiting. Or he just dodge through them one time and they shatter into the dodge with no dmg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toron.4856 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Morts.5319" said: > >  > > Taken from another thread but I think this is important. Mesmer can also spam so many clones and phantasms so fast that the game engine can't keep up with the amount of models and can't load actual player models. meanwhile anet is designing new mount and weapon skins 24/7 and fixing bugs in fractals and raids to secure a good pve and fashion wars atmosphere. i still refuse to believe theres ACTUALLY a balance team until anet proves me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FyzE.3472" said: > Also, if DE uses an action camera, there is no laser :) > > But mesmer is still more broken lol. Wake up people! Just a note, Mesmer still needs to be fixed, but that is also a huge issue and we should address immediately after. We need to be able to see the majority of big damage attacks before they hit us, regardless of what class initiates them, especially if they are outside of melee range. _Wait, who uses action camera-_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > > what do you think? > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%) > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability. > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second) > > > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to. > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad. > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules. > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth. > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build. > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait. > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable. > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it. > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots. The phantasm rule fixed a huge mechanical problem for the entire profession. It's not 'broken' because you say it is. The change wasn't made to kill that build specifically, it was made to make Mesmer have a cohesive flow instead of having it's mechanics fight each other. Although this is going to just go in circles because what you're really asking for is actually impossible. You want to revert the phantasm changes, but keep the one and done behavior, meaning you can just shatter them inadvertently which is stupid that's a stupid stupid thing and exactly what the problem was before, they're either fodder or useless to anyone who wants to play IH Mirage. Tell me more about this broken phantasm spam Mirage, go on, I'll wait. Tell me about the rampant complaints where it's totally about how phantasm Mirage can get so many phantasms that it's ridiculous. The previous phantasm rules had been despised by actual Mesmer mains for a long time, the advent of Mirage only highlighted how useless phantasms could be so something had to be done. But you're not a Mesmer main by admission so I don't know why I expect you to grasp this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poelala.2830 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Call the post bad, sure. But at least the OP is actually talking specific changes. Saying simply that the post is bad and saying we need balance will achieve nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > > Also, if DE uses an action camera, there is no laser :) > > > > But mesmer is still more broken lol. Wake up people! > > Just a note, Mesmer still needs to be fixed, but that is also a huge issue and we should address immediately after. > > We need to be able to see the majority of big damage attacks before they hit us, regardless of what class initiates them, especially if they are outside of melee range. > > _Wait, who uses action camera-_ I swith to it from time to time (binded to mouse scroller press). Can be fun :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will de grijze jager.6594 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > The phantasm rule fixed a huge mechanical problem for the entire profession. It's not 'broken' because you say it is. The change wasn't made to kill that build specifically, it was made to make Mesmer have a cohesive flow instead of having it's mechanics fight each other. Although this is going to just go in circles because what you're really asking for is actually impossible. You want to revert the phantasm changes, but keep the one and done behavior, meaning you can just shatter them inadvertently which is stupid that's a stupid stupid thing and exactly what the problem was before, they're either fodder or useless to anyone who wants to play IH Mirage. > > Tell me more about this broken phantasm spam Mirage, go on, I'll wait. Tell me about the rampant complaints where it's totally about how phantasm Mirage can get so many phantasms that it's ridiculous. > > The previous phantasm rules had been despised by actual Mesmer mains for a long time, the advent of Mirage only highlighted how useless phantasms could be so something had to be done. > > But you're not a Mesmer main by admission so I don't know why I expect you to grasp this. It is funny that you say people don't give skills that need nerfs, because a lot have pointed to burst combo's and skills/traits that do the damage, but everytime someone does, a mesmer main like you come and act like they don't know what they are talking about. While they gave prof with a video or something like that. After they give prof the mesmer mains say 'no it is a l2p issue.' This is becuase mesmers or any class that is broken at any point of time say, that there class is not broken, because they like the ez wins. For those people that defend the broken class of the month come form your high horse and stop acting like people that point to the skills/traits that do damage are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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