Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[Emtiarbi.3281]

In any case, Mesmer is good right now.

You can maybe check metabattle.com for some mesmer meta builds (not sure if they are updated or anything)

[EUmad.7645]

i think that the op is wrong. Mirage is too strong now. I play it. try to roll something else and go 1 v1 against a mirage , not a champion but a normal one. You will see that you have to completely outplay a mirage to win against him. It is not correct in my opinion . They nerfed gs .. which in my opinion was ok ... but they nerfed it as many other damage skill on other classes. Instead now staff with chaos is broken. Try simply to spam staff 3 and then ambush staff .... and see the damage. Mirage has an incredible set of tools for evading, mitigating damage and on the other side it hits hard. Mirage now remember me old time of invincible cele ele .... with a different mechanic...

[Odik.4587]

Nerf on GS that alrdy had 2 useless skills as gs3/5 was ok ... ? haHA

Nerfing core weapon that have place in 1 build that wasnt ever meta, on top of 2 traits that rely that build above it... I think you one of those who get oneshots 24/7...

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> The mesmer may indeed be fine, but a few classes can't really compete.

 

*squints*

 

How is it fine if at least three classes on any spec lose to it outright?

 

 

[EUmad.7645]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> Nerf on GS that alrdy had 2 useless skills as gs3/5 was ok ... ? haHA

> Nerfing core weapon that have place in 1 build that wasnt ever meta, on top of 2 traits that rely that build above it... I think you one of those who get oneshots 24/7...

>

 

No u understood wrong or i write in a terrible way, english is not my natural language . I was saying that GS nerf in my opinion was unnecessary, but that i can understand the reason anet did it . they nerfed many other damage skills of other classes for reduce power creep so i can "understand" the nerf in this direction but it really does not solves the problem .

[BeLZedaR.4790]

Yeah dont destroy mesmer. Fking burn it with fire, quickly before it lays —eggs— clones.

[BABE.6384]

Yeah dont destroy it, Just remake it to be grossly oppressive

 

SeemsGood

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > Stop saying that Mirage is OP cos this is stupid and this is why:

> > > 1. Mirage can't hold a point.

> > > 2. Mirage can't one shot.

> > > 3. It's more or less like a thief good in roaming and +1 but slower than a thief only can compete with a thief if you play sword and if so the condi damage is minor.

> > > 4. The good skills have long couldown's like torch 1 and 2 and torch 1 is so ez to be evaded with the sound effect so all you need to do is to wait 2.5sec and dodge or just move away especially the mesmer is slower than chrono(+25% speed).

> > > 5. The only problem is that mirage is all around cos it's the most fun class to play was it in pvp or pve and mirage is good vs core builds in general but not the SD thief(so much evades and free teleports and spam-able unblockable ).

> > > 6. Torment is not a good condi however the only good condi a mesmer can do is confusion forcing the high lvl players to disengage so they don't suicide using skills however the stupid players keep fighting and die and blame mirage for being op when the only problem is him being stupid ,so if you remove the confusion damage the condi mesmer in general gonna be useless and everyone gonna swap to power chrono if they are die-hard mesmers or just change the class .

> > >

> > > and i will list here the real broken classes:

> > > * The one shot power ele .

> > > * The one shot core gard .

> > > * Druid so much damage from the pets and so much heal and can hold a point vs 2

> > > * S/D thief with the spam-able unblockable with 5k+ damage with crits with an evade frame what more you can ask for.

> > > * P/P thief is op it the best version of deadeye and its not played in high lvl games simply cos they are ashamed to play it cos it's so ez .

> > > * Scourge is lovley corupption is real in huge AOE's and the bariers make the scourge harder to kill more than a reaper if in good hands .

> > > * ~~power rev~~ removed from the list till it show up on the next meta(due the public demand)

> > > * The lovly FB support .

> > > * The cute HOLO.

> > > * The shy one shot power Mesmer (added due the public demand )

> > > * The scary SB with perma resistance and double swing kill.

> > > and more.....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 1 yes, it can

> > 2 yes, it can

> > 3 it's actually capable of chasing a thief down

> > 4 Torch 1 and 2? Who the kitten uses torch mainhand?

> > 5 sd got gutted mirage did not

> > 6 why the hell are you still playing condi, self imposed limitation

>

> Necro thread.

 

Damnit, I fell for it :(

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > > Stop saying that Mirage is OP cos this is stupid and this is why:

> > > > 1. Mirage can't hold a point.

> > > > 2. Mirage can't one shot.

> > > > 3. It's more or less like a thief good in roaming and +1 but slower than a thief only can compete with a thief if you play sword and if so the condi damage is minor.

> > > > 4. The good skills have long couldown's like torch 1 and 2 and torch 1 is so ez to be evaded with the sound effect so all you need to do is to wait 2.5sec and dodge or just move away especially the mesmer is slower than chrono(+25% speed).

> > > > 5. The only problem is that mirage is all around cos it's the most fun class to play was it in pvp or pve and mirage is good vs core builds in general but not the SD thief(so much evades and free teleports and spam-able unblockable ).

> > > > 6. Torment is not a good condi however the only good condi a mesmer can do is confusion forcing the high lvl players to disengage so they don't suicide using skills however the stupid players keep fighting and die and blame mirage for being op when the only problem is him being stupid ,so if you remove the confusion damage the condi mesmer in general gonna be useless and everyone gonna swap to power chrono if they are die-hard mesmers or just change the class .

> > > >

> > > > and i will list here the real broken classes:

> > > > * The one shot power ele .

> > > > * The one shot core gard .

> > > > * Druid so much damage from the pets and so much heal and can hold a point vs 2

> > > > * S/D thief with the spam-able unblockable with 5k+ damage with crits with an evade frame what more you can ask for.

> > > > * P/P thief is op it the best version of deadeye and its not played in high lvl games simply cos they are ashamed to play it cos it's so ez .

> > > > * Scourge is lovley corupption is real in huge AOE's and the bariers make the scourge harder to kill more than a reaper if in good hands .

> > > > * ~~power rev~~ removed from the list till it show up on the next meta(due the public demand)

> > > > * The lovly FB support .

> > > > * The cute HOLO.

> > > > * The shy one shot power Mesmer (added due the public demand )

> > > > * The scary SB with perma resistance and double swing kill.

> > > > and more.....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > 1 yes, it can

> > > 2 yes, it can

> > > 3 it's actually capable of chasing a thief down

> > > 4 Torch 1 and 2? Who the kitten uses torch mainhand?

> > > 5 sd got gutted mirage did not

> > > 6 why the hell are you still playing condi, self imposed limitation

> >

> > Necro thread.

>

> Damnit, I fell for it :(

 

**R I P**

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I understand that you're trying to draw focus as to how crazy mesmer is right now, but overextending just makes people want to believe this a bandwagoning than an actual issue.

 

If you're genuinely interested in picking up mesmer, visit metabattle to learn what traits and skills you need for what, use one of the builds posted there as a base, and tweak/rebuild as needed.

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> > > > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> > > > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> > > > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> > > > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> > > > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> > > > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> > > > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> > > > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> > > > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

> > > > >

> > > > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

> > > > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

> > > > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

> > > > >

> > > > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

> > > >

> > > > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run.

> > > >

> > > > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more.

> > > > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief.

> > > > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer.

> > > > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation.

> > > >

> > > > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best.

> > > > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone.

> > >

> > > 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch.

> > > 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty.

> > > 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer.

> > >

> > > I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long.

> >

> > 1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab.

> > 2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it.

> > 3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again.

> >

> > Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure.

> 1. No, sorry, its harder to land backstab than shatter. I'm not even going to debate this with you because its common sense.

> 2. Yes clones are paper, they're also absorbing damage for you if they die so you don't get to whine about it. It's NOT a drawback.

> 3. Every 12th second is actually more often than thief can backstab+steal

>

> Sure, thieves aren't "curbstomp" kings anymore (i assume that's a metaphor for +1) but since +1 and decap was the only thing thief was good at, you literally pushed thief out of the meta because of how kitten your class is.

 

1. Lol k, waah my one trick pony doesn't work anymore.

2. They're not 'absorbing' damage unless you specifically are you using single target, single attack skills on them in which case it sounds like you need to look up the definition of cleaving and git gud.

3. Nah fam we talking about backstab here, Steal is a separate skill. And as numerous people have pointed out Backstab is far less telegraphed.

 

I don't think the debate is what was making you stupid. Yeah sure shatter is easier to perform, but it has the unique quality of being able to have it's damage removed before it actually deals it, which is what anyone with any remote awareness or tactical thinking would do. And if i'm not mistaken most melee skills require you to face your opponent, if you're mad about that requirement I don't know what to tell you bud.

 

Honestly you sound like just another thief whining about their one trick pony being kicked to death.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

> > > >

> > > > The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just kitten a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

> > > >

> > > > Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to underst> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

> > > >

> > > > The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just kitten a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

> > > >

> > > > Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to understand.

> > >

> > > It was a question if phantasm turn into clones when get destroyed, that's what i was remembering but i wasn't sure and it turns out i was wrong in that, i just checked the patchnotes, they only turn into clones even when get interrupted on their one attack. "Phantasms: Phantasms can no longer be shattered and no longer count toward your maximum illusion count. Phantasms are destroyed and then replaced by clones after completing their unique attack or if their attack is interrupted." I was just remembering the interruption thing wrong.

> > >

> > > Still no, the class would not be miserable to play with the old phantasm rule, mesmer was playable with the old rule for years. The change was done for PvE not that much for PvP. And sry but anet have to find another way to prevent a 3 phantasm perma-uptime and only autoattack through PvE content playstyle for mesmer. A way that don't make the class a npcs carried brainless spamfest and effect-/npc-clutter on screen. Making phantasm turn into clones after one attack prevent that already. The class mechanic are shatterskills for some reason and shattermesmer never have let phantasm live for longer than one attack before shatter anyway. The new phantasm rules with even buffing the npcs dmg is just aids in PvP and was not needed.

> > >

> > > I am not irritated by phantasms turn into clones, that was the only change i said they should keep, obviously you didn't understand my post at all. Yes, obviously also from your other sentences. Its not about dodging the phantams (even tho telegraphed skills don't help when you can't see anything from all the clutter) its about a mesmer can generate way more clones than before much more permanently. Means he can shatter with more clones = also more dmg frequently after having phantams attacks which are very stong already. How many dodges should an opponent have? Doging all phantasm the mesmer can spam and all shatters? Pls start thinking. I play mesmer myself sometimes and even me not being that good on mesmer the brainless playable phantasm builds are just boring and ez to play. Phantasm builds were never a thing in PvP before but they are now. You seems to mix up PvE and PvP.

> > >

> > > It is so funny i either get attacked by mesmer hater for saying not all builds of chrono or mirage are op or i get attacked by not so good mesmer mains needing and defending a broken mechanic to play the class in PvP.

> > >

> > > I agree to try the 3 phantasm up limit before but i'm sure that will not rly help vs anything. So i still vote for undoing this broken mechanic except the one change that phantasm turn into clones after one attack and find another way to compensate mesmers in PvE for that phantasms are not permatent up after casting them once anymore, a way that is possible to split (like give skills more dmg or shorten cds in PvE only).

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yeah Mesmer was 'playable' the same way you can still eat ramen noodles with a fork, sure it kinda works but you're missing out on a fair amount of effectiveness. Yes, the change was done for PvE because ANet is taking a stance against passive gameplay which is exactly what pop 3 phantasms and AA was. And considering far more people do PvE than PvP it's a fair consideration. Although you can't seem to understand that npc carried brainless spamfest is exactly the same thing as pop 3 phantasms and AA even though you recognize both concepts (which are the same concept) in sentences next to each other. Sure maybe the damage is overtuned for PvP, fix it there then, don't go back to gimpy class design because you want a ride in the wwaaahhhmbulance.

> >

> > Yeah it's pretty hard to understand a poorly written post, my bad. No Mesmers shatter capabilities were not bolstered at all, if anything the offending trait is Shatter Storm, not clone generation, making phantasms shatterable or having them change into clones after their attack literally does not magically make more clone generation, the net amount of illusions being shattered is the exact same except in the few cases where phantasms skills now generate more than one phantasm (only 2 untraited instances). You seem to forget you don't necessarily have to dodge a phantasm attack to avoid damage from it since you didn't read my post, phantasms can be destroyed before or during their attacks and you only really need to dodge one shatter, Cry of Frustration is garbage, Diversion doesn't do any actual damage and Distortion isn't an attack. And you don't seem to understand that phantasms aren't spammed, the offending trait is Chronophantasma which might need to be reworked a little, generally something that happens when you have a class mechanic overhaul.

> >

> > Change it back because it's overtuned in the least played game mode is a really sorry reason to kitten it for PvE mesmers. I'm clearly thinking more than you because you forgot phantasms can just be destroyed before or during their attack. You even admit that you're not that good on mesmer so I'm having trouble accepting your perspective from what appears to be hotjoin hero syndrome.

> >

> > So basically what you're saying is, rebreak Phantasms for PvE because a small fraction of the playerbase is sad and can't wait for tuning changes.

> >

> > Edit: forgot one more thing, you can even prevent phantasms from attacking by dodging the Phantasm skill itself, they're evadeable, blockable, and blindable, oh look the mesmer is swinging his greatsword around, dodge, wow there's no phantasms.

>

> tsdr

 

That Dunning Krueger effect must be marvelous.

[Lehrling.1472]

Good thing i dont pvp anymore. And stuff like mesmer will make it stay this way.

Its more fun to watch people ripp there brains out over people defending there (op) class.

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"Lehrling.1472" said:

> Good thing i dont pvp anymore. And stuff like mesmer will make it stay this way.

> Its more fun to watch people ripp there brains out over people defending there (op) class.

 

whahahahaha...., was that ment as a joke?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

_shatter is not the main problem on mesmer burst. It's phantasm + ambush skills . _

 

Above, with the general addition of damage.

Let's not go crazy about this. Arenanet has a tendency to over-nerf, people have a tendency to over-complain about failures to understand basic game mechanics when everyone else is doing it, and I'd rather not see mesmer gutted down to D tier or lower because a vocal minority can't understand shatters.

 

I've said this before, but we need to cap active phantasms at two or three, and reduce the damage on the majority of them. We can go from there. If shattering in addition to that needs scaling, we can address it then. Right now, though, mesmer is too bloated: People are saying they wont take elusive mind because "waah exhaustion", but it only applies that on stuns. People will still run it because _being exhausted but alive is preferable to being dead from a burst, and otherwise it is a condi clear._ Don't let people tell you otherwise. The trait is still strong.

 

Add that to stealth, blocks on sword skills, blocks from Deja Vu if you run Chrono and the ability to resummon phantasms with Chrono, the ability to permanently upkeep protection, impressive solo and group mobility -and- instant cast stuns from range, and you have a disaster.

 

All of that is fine _with appropriate context_, if you want to run with it. However, classes that lean towards that amount of versatility should have their damage scaled back to compensate. Mesmers should be annoying OR deadly, but not both. They did it to thief, why not mes? (They're STILL doing it to thief.). Shave their damage back in increments until they are slightly better than +1 classes. They're slower than thief over flat surfaces who carry shortbow, so their damage should be adjusted to account for that.

 

Don't kill their builds, but don't listen to the people saying everything is fine and you need to L2p. Its not.

 

[Razor.6392]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

>

> Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

>

> We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

 

This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role:

 

Thief has the lowest health.

 

Thief is more susceptible to cc.

 

Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability.

 

Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role.

 

Thief has negligible ranged damage.

 

Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc.

 

Thief has zero invulnerabilities.

 

Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI.

 

 

Should I keep going man?

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

> >

> > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

> >

> > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

>

> This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role:

>

> Thief has the lowest health.

>

> Thief is more susceptible to cc.

>

> Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability.

>

> Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role.

>

> Thief has negligible ranged damage.

>

> Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc.

>

> Thief has zero invulnerabilities.

>

> Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI.

>

>

> Should I keep going man?

>

 

Thief has the highest access to stealth

Thief has the best disengage that has ever existed

Thief has the best in combat mobility of any class

Thief is immune to chill aside from the movement speed penalty

Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum

Thief has access to the fastest casting and most spammable interrupt in the game that itself cannot be interrupted

Thief has the most options for endurance regen

The only reason thief is 'more susceptible to cc' is because comparatively every other class is 'more susceptible to cc' when there's a stun break on dodge trait which Mesmers continually wanted ANet to rework before the exhaustion 'solution'. But I don't see you moaning about stability spam on other classes.

 

Note, none of my post was about disparaging thief in any way, they have their fair share of issues. My post was about dispelling the perma uptime hysteria that's running rampant on this 'forum'.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability.

 

I'd like to add that most thieves carry blinding powder instead of that block, because thieves in general only need to block when they're preparing to or are in the process of running away, and it is more preferable to stealth away than it is to block and run, where you can be hit by unblockable attacks and pulled as soon as the block ends.

Oh, and the knockdown is borderline useless situationally.

 

Bandit's defense isn't something you run. blinding powder is better, or roll for init.

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum

 

I mean, neither are mesmers for that matter. They have almost as many skills that directly apply stealth, and several of them are instant cast as well. Define "consistently."

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability.

>

> I'd like to add that most thieves carry blinding powder instead of that block, because thieves in general only need to block when they're preparing to or are in the process of running away, and it is more preferable to stealth away than it is to block and run, where you can be hit by unblockable attacks and pulled as soon as the block ends.

> Oh, and the knockdown is borderline useless situationally.

>

> Bandit's defense isn't something you run. blinding powder is better, or roll for init.

>

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum

>

> I mean, neither are mesmers for that matter. They have almost as many skills that directly apply stealth, and several of them are instant cast as well. Define "consistently."

>

 

We have 3. Please stop.

[Highlie.7641]

Oh, in a surprising turn of event's the mesmer pull out the old tried and true method of deflection, you seen it here first folks! 6 year's in the making! the one the only....

 

"B-b-b-ut thieves!!!!""" CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?

[Odik.4587]

I'm just casually reading 'fun' posts time to time on forum but saying mesmer have insane amount of stealth.... (you mean it when compare it with thief). Oh my...Never seen mesmers playing more than torch+utility. Thief stealth whenever they want (if not count s/d ,cnd they dont use that often). Dp can stealth for years ,daredevil with pistol+bound dodge have uninterruptable stealth ,simple powder 5 dodge (dont cry its not meta, i know actually good ppl who play it and do it well) .Also think how long thief can be in stelath compared to mesmer. Even druid can outstealth mesmer easly: smokescale-> leap ,blast on warhorn ,blast on staff or lb 3 , or both together if playing with LB/Staff if with avatar its even more,blast+celestial shadow :D

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum

> >

> > I mean, neither are mesmers for that matter. They have almost as many skills that directly apply stealth, and several of them are instant cast as well. Define "consistently."

> >

>

> We have 3. Please stop.

 

You have _five_ . one is just impractical and the other has a stupid long cast. Nothing stopping you from chaining them though.

 

Not arguing that thief has less access, but there's a reasonable amount of stealth there to suit the definition of "consistently" in most fights.

 

 

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> > > > >

> > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

> > > >

> > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

> > > >

> > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

> > > >

> > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

> > > >

> > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

> > > >

> > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

> > > >

> > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

> > >

> > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

> > >

> > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

> > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

> > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

> > >

> > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

> >

> > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run.

> >

> > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more.

> > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior.

> >

> > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief.

> > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer.

> > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation.

> >

> > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best.

> > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone.

>

> 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch.

> 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty.

> 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer.

>

> I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long.

 

1. I specified comparing it as tomato-tomahto in an earlier post, in reality both are about the same in difficulty to land and both have their strengths and flaws. One thing that cannot be argued is that you can simply counter a shatter by incidentally cleaving or AoEing clones beforehand.

As for damage nerfs a large amount of mesmer power comes from compounding vuln and might and landing shatters. Shatters did not get nerfed, might stacking did.

 

2. Clones provide, by your admission, negligible offense and before they are shattered clones offer no defense outside of maybe body blocking rangers. You keep going on about how they "take hits for you"; this is predominantly untrue unless people run around with auto targeting, which is a bronze issue.

No decent player with auto target off is going to waste cooldowns that doesn't wipe them all to avoid needing to use a defensive cooldown to block a shatter, and not to mention most cooldowns that are used to wipe them all usually also hit the Mesmer, or force a doge. Either way, they are not taking a hit for you they are just liabilities that visually indicate the stages of your ramp. If there was some trait or a baseline feature where mesmers gained a second of evade when a clone got to 40% hp or killed then maybe you could argue it would actually be taking a hit so mes could live.

 

3. If running GS Mirror blade is part of a burst combo and rarely used for clone generation. Berserker is on a 20 second cooldown in PvP (you saying otherwise provides more evidence to class ignorance). It really doesn't matter if you can point out that the class CAN make clones, it is a fact they do exist yes.

However the idea of having to either waste or use unnecessary things like a jaunt for creation, or how like as you mentioned it taking up a large portion of the weapon skill bar which in turn means mesmer ultimately has less impactful 'direct damage skills on demand' all for the sake of having enough resource generation to then be able to rely on the shatter, is a burden and a draw back. Each cool-down spent on a clone is a cost, and that can be rendered null by an auto attack.

 

Just the idea of having to ramp with a resource that is physically present and paper thin is a draw back to have to use. Unlike Thief and War who could literally afk and get resources or have resources to burst, mesmer has ramp and has tons of counter play built into it's own mechanic that mesmer are forced to use. (outside of the one combo on the one weapon that isn't even as popular anymore)

 

I'm not complaining about the others and what they have or even saying they have an easier time. Every class has it's own issues, strengths and weaknesses.

 

Mirage after this more recent patch isn't absurd. It has a mechanic to many vocal people refuse to play around, and that is what makes mesmer strong regardless of the build. Once everyone is in the know, it will lose relevance but still be strong enough to do damage, which is all power mesmer has ever wanted leading up to the feb rework and now that it can do it, people are paying attention and crying about it when it's actually pretty fair.

 

Thief might be getting pushed out of the meta, but much like when thief did the same to Mesmer;

It was a problem of Mesmer lacking and only being taken for Moa and Portal.

Clearly people have been crying about both, both have been nerfed (one being hard numbers the other being it's ability to stack might) But if thief is pushed out it will then have to rely on other strengths or sit out like mes, or ele has had to in the past until A-net can give everyone a unique role.

Survivability has been toned down across the board, Thief can capitalize on that vs many threats mesmer cannot on top of that Mes may have more beneficial matchups, but at the same time thief has tools to counter or at least pressure or gank mes in the same meta depending on the spec.

[Razor.6392]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

> > >

> > > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

> > >

> > > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

> >

> > This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role:

> >

> > Thief has the lowest health.

> >

> > Thief is more susceptible to cc.

> >

> > Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability.

> >

> > Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role.

> >

> > Thief has negligible ranged damage.

> >

> > Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc.

> >

> > Thief has zero invulnerabilities.

> >

> > Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI.

> >

> >

> > Should I keep going man?

> >

>

> Thief has the highest access to stealth

> Thief has the best disengage that has ever existed

> Thief has the best in combat mobility of any class

> Thief is immune to chill aside from the movement speed penalty

> Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum

> Thief has access to the fastest casting and most spammable interrupt in the game that itself cannot be interrupted

> Thief has the most options for endurance regen

> The only reason thief is 'more susceptible to cc' is because comparatively every other class is 'more susceptible to cc' when there's a stun break on dodge trait which Mesmers continually wanted ANet to rework before the exhaustion 'solution'. But I don't see you moaning about stability spam on other classes.

>

> Note, none of my post was about disparaging thief in any way, they have their fair share of issues. My post was about dispelling the perma uptime hysteria that's running rampant on this 'forum'.

 

You mention permastealth as if 1. that was viable in pvp and 2. meta thief builds ever relied on it.

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum

> > >

> > > I mean, neither are mesmers for that matter. They have almost as many skills that directly apply stealth, and several of them are instant cast as well. Define "consistently."

> > >

> >

> > We have 3. Please stop.

>

> You have _five_ . one is just impractical and the other has a stupid long cast. Nothing stopping you from chaining them though.

>

> Not arguing that thief has less access, but there's a reasonable amount of stealth there to suit the definition of "consistently" in most fights.

>

>

 

Except that you can bombard the area around Veil with AoE's or interrupt Mass Invis which has a realllllyyyyyyyyy flamboyant telegraph. One is on Torch, one is on Signet of Midnight, both of which are condition builds where stealth isn't necessary to land your attacks.