Nightlark.4029 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. Exactly. Just like that sketch browser toolbar that came bundled in the installer for some other software (not GW2) — the ToS that you hastily clicked agree to even mentioned it. I wonder why they felt the need to obfuscate one of the windows api calls, instead of just calling the function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". A blanket consent might not be enough when private data is concerned. The idea of informed consent comes into play, which requires more clear and detailed information about what is collected and how it is used. This means that software can fall under the more narrow definitions of spyware, even if the activity is technically covered by a vague agreement. This is why anti-virus/malware software still flag programs that collect data despite having agreements that potentially allow it. They tend to report them as "Potentially Unwanted Applications/Programs" (PUA/PUP), but their descriptions/definitions match what would be expected for spyware. The PUA/PUP labels are there because some developers didn't like having their programs called out for their spying and started accusing the anti-virus/security industry of defamation. The response was changing the name to PUA/PUP, to sound less derogatory than calling it "spyware". Now, the term spyware is a bit extreme in relation to the current debacle with Anet. To apply it here, it would have to be shown that Anet's cheat detector sent back data on more than just the cheat programs it had found, which is not the current thinking based on reverse engineering of the game client. The data the cheat detector looked at is far from sensitive information, but it is still private data. So some scrutiny over just how much Anet collected from it was justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > I'd be very surprised if that ticket gets anything more than a canned response telling you that they cannot discuss details of their detection methods. If they do tell us anything, which I think they really need to, it would be in the form of a carefully considered public statement that had been approved at multiple levels. That's just above the pay grade of a CSR/GM until the higher-ups decide what to say on the matter. > > I very much want to see an official clarification on what data was sent to Anet. A confirmation that they did not collect anything other than reports on detected cheat programs, as suggested by the redditors that did research on the game client. > > I'm not sure if this is has caused much of an impact on public image so far. There were some bigger games media outlets that ran stories early on, but the details were sketchy or incomplete, and there weren't follow up stories keeping it in the public's eye. They've certainly ruffled some feathers within the game's community, but I think it's mostly remained contained here. The community's opinion surely carries some weight, since we are the ones buying their gems and expansions, but it always helps get things done when there is a stream of public information directing more eyes onto the mess. > > It's kind of sad that bad PR is just about the only thing that can motivate companies to do the right thing. I don't enjoy seeing a game I like being dragged through the mud for the sake of trying to make it better. You won't be seeing me around if that's the case, I'm sure you all mean well but I don't know any of your back grounds in the field of Computer Science, or Net Working, or Cyber Security; to inspire me to bother logging in again and spending money it's up to ANet to give a response to gain back my trust. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way I do, we very well may be part of a vocal minority. I've been keeping my self busy between a Beta Invite I recently got which inspired me to make a prepurchase, and an Alpha invite which I'm sure is just a ploy to get me to resub for that game (which worked). I won't mention the two games names out of decency toward ANet but I'm sure any one that's a multi MMO hobbyist like I am can figure out which titles (they are in the top 5 easily, possibly top 3 profitable companies at this time). I'd like to believe ANet is on the right side of this, but their silence doesn't look good to me and it doesn't inspire good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". That doesn't entitle them to any more of my confidence, time, or money. Being on the right side of a contract doesn't mean much if you have customers that like me that no longer trust them and are holding back financially while waiting for some transparency in good faith. It's only money right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". > > That doesn't entitle them to any more of my confidence, time, or money. Being on the right side of a contract doesn't mean much if you have 'customers' that like me that no longer trust them and are holding back financially while waiting for some transparency in good faith. > > It's only 'money' right? That's weird I thought I hit an edit button, not a quote button w/e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". > > That doesn't entitle them to any more of my confidence, time, or money. Being on the right side of a contract doesn't mean much if you have customers that like me that no longer trust them and are holding back financially while waiting for some transparency in good faith. > > It's only money right? That's a good point. Pointing to the agreements is fine and dandy from a legal perspective. But it doesn't do any favors when there are customers angry over something that has happened. If people are asking for some sort of explanation or justification, pulling out the ToS is kind of like saying "nyah nyha, you can't do anything, so be quiet". While technically true, it's a bit insulting and only makes the situation worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > I'd be very surprised if that ticket gets anything more than a canned response telling you that they cannot discuss details of their detection methods. If they do tell us anything, which I think they really need to, it would be in the form of a carefully considered public statement that had been approved at multiple levels. That's just above the pay grade of a CSR/GM until the higher-ups decide what to say on the matter. > > > > I very much want to see an official clarification on what data was sent to Anet. A confirmation that they did not collect anything other than reports on detected cheat programs, as suggested by the redditors that did research on the game client. > > > > I'm not sure if this is has caused much of an impact on public image so far. There were some bigger games media outlets that ran stories early on, but the details were sketchy or incomplete, and there weren't follow up stories keeping it in the public's eye. They've certainly ruffled some feathers within the game's community, but I think it's mostly remained contained here. The community's opinion surely carries some weight, since we are the ones buying their gems and expansions, but it always helps get things done when there is a stream of public information directing more eyes onto the mess. > > > > It's kind of sad that bad PR is just about the only thing that can motivate companies to do the right thing. I don't enjoy seeing a game I like being dragged through the mud for the sake of trying to make it better. > > You won't be seeing me around if that's the case, I'm sure you all mean well but I don't know any of your back grounds in the field of Computer Science, or Net Working, or Cyber Security; to inspire me to bother logging in again and spending money it's up to ANet to give a response to gain back my trust. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way I do, we very well may be part of a vocal minority. I've been keeping my self busy between a Beta Invite I recently got which inspired me to make a prepurchase, and an Alpha invite which I'm sure is just a ploy to get me to resub for that game (which worked). I won't mention the two games names out of decency toward ANet but I'm sure any one that's a multi MMO hobbyist like I am can figure out which titles (they are in the top 5 easily, possibly top 3 profitable companies at this time). > > I'd like to believe ANet is on the right side of this, but their silence doesn't look good to me and it doesn't inspire good faith. Of course they are silent.. you really think they want to go into detail on how, what, where and when detection is being utilised .. what logical sense would that in anyway be... hey hackers, just a heads up today we will be running "x" monitoring, using "y" methods for "z" amount of hours. You don't need to be the slightest bit IT savy to know that it would be nothing short of a meal ticket for the hackdevs... why do you think trying to catch game cheats is akin to cat and mouse games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > > > > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > > > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > > > > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". > > > > That doesn't entitle them to any more of my confidence, time, or money. Being on the right side of a contract doesn't mean much if you have customers that like me that no longer trust them and are holding back financially while waiting for some transparency in good faith. > > > > It's only money right? > > That's a good point. Pointing to the agreements is fine and dandy from a legal perspective. But it doesn't do any favors when there are customers angry over something that has happened. If people are asking for some sort of explanation or justification, pulling out the ToS is kind of like saying "nyah nyha, you can't do anything, so be quiet". While technically true, it's a bit insulting and only makes the situation worse. when you say people, you mean those that got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.. of course they are going to protest their innocence.. so I am glad they are angry, so are legit players angry at ANET for not acting on all these issues with hackers, botters, AFK minion farmers etc a lot sooner. But don't worry they will all be back in game by now testing the boundaries and the detections already and the hackdevs will of patched their hacks.. ANET has the next move, I just hope they keep taking the next moves and not let it fester again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > I'd be very surprised if that ticket gets anything more than a canned response telling you that they cannot discuss details of their detection methods. If they do tell us anything, which I think they really need to, it would be in the form of a carefully considered public statement that had been approved at multiple levels. That's just above the pay grade of a CSR/GM until the higher-ups decide what to say on the matter. > > > > I very much want to see an official clarification on what data was sent to Anet. A confirmation that they did not collect anything other than reports on detected cheat programs, as suggested by the redditors that did research on the game client. > > > > I'm not sure if this is has caused much of an impact on public image so far. There were some bigger games media outlets that ran stories early on, but the details were sketchy or incomplete, and there weren't follow up stories keeping it in the public's eye. They've certainly ruffled some feathers within the game's community, but I think it's mostly remained contained here. The community's opinion surely carries some weight, since we are the ones buying their gems and expansions, but it always helps get things done when there is a stream of public information directing more eyes onto the mess. > > > > It's kind of sad that bad PR is just about the only thing that can motivate companies to do the right thing. I don't enjoy seeing a game I like being dragged through the mud for the sake of trying to make it better. > > You won't be seeing me around if that's the case, I'm sure you all mean well but I don't know any of your back grounds in the field of Computer Science, or Net Working, or Cyber Security; to inspire me to bother logging in again and spending money it's up to ANet to give a response to gain back my trust. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way I do, we very well may be part of a vocal minority. I've been keeping my self busy between a Beta Invite I recently got which inspired me to make a prepurchase, and an Alpha invite which I'm sure is just a ploy to get me to resub for that game (which worked). I won't mention the two games names out of decency toward ANet but I'm sure any one that's a multi MMO hobbyist like I am can figure out which titles (they are in the top 5 easily, possibly top 3 profitable companies at this time). > > I'd like to believe ANet is on the right side of this, but their silence doesn't look good to me and it doesn't inspire good faith. All AAA mmorpg do the kind of checks Anet does, so not sure what the point of i'm gonna leave threat to move to another game is about. all proper AAA mmorpg SHOULD do runtime security checks to PROTECT us and the game integrity, we should want it to happen. There's a lot of melodramatic half baked nonsense going around by armchair detectives who like drama quite frankly. You have to apply common sense to work out what's likely and whats fantasy and what is the intent. Not everything in life is shady evil corporations (well blizzard is borderline on the greed front) and dodgy evil developers, most mmo publishers are filled with people just like us who care about the quality of their products and work just like we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ Looked at it quickly. They are unaware that this reddit thread was update, with some findings that would lead toward the content being filtered out before being sent. So... our "circle" is actually more aware of these things than general news websites that are very happy to find stuff like that that will excite people, but aren't exactly trying to be fair and seek updates on a situation. But sure, company bashing is fun and a rising trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > Looked at it quickly. They are unaware that this reddit thread was update, with some findings that would lead toward the content being filtered out before being sent. > So... our "circle" is actually more aware of these things than general news websites that are very happy to find stuff like that that will excite people, but aren't exactly trying to be fair and seek updates on a situation. > But sure, company bashing is fun and a rising trend. Rekt.. soooo rekt :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > > > > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > > > > > > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > > > > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > > > > > > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". > > > > > > That doesn't entitle them to any more of my confidence, time, or money. Being on the right side of a contract doesn't mean much if you have customers that like me that no longer trust them and are holding back financially while waiting for some transparency in good faith. > > > > > > It's only money right? > > > > That's a good point. Pointing to the agreements is fine and dandy from a legal perspective. But it doesn't do any favors when there are customers angry over something that has happened. If people are asking for some sort of explanation or justification, pulling out the ToS is kind of like saying "nyah nyha, you can't do anything, so be quiet". While technically true, it's a bit insulting and only makes the situation worse. > > when you say people, you mean those that got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.. of course they are going to protest their innocence.. so I am glad they are angry, so are legit players angry at ANET for not acting on all these issues with hackers, botters, AFK minion farmers etc a lot sooner. > But don't worry they will all be back in game by now testing the boundaries and the detections already and the hackdevs will of patched their hacks.. ANET has the next move, I just hope they keep taking the next moves and not let it fester again. How am I posting then, you make a lot of assumptions; it's fine though it amuses me to see you unravel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > I'd be very surprised if that ticket gets anything more than a canned response telling you that they cannot discuss details of their detection methods. If they do tell us anything, which I think they really need to, it would be in the form of a carefully considered public statement that had been approved at multiple levels. That's just above the pay grade of a CSR/GM until the higher-ups decide what to say on the matter. > > > > > > I very much want to see an official clarification on what data was sent to Anet. A confirmation that they did not collect anything other than reports on detected cheat programs, as suggested by the redditors that did research on the game client. > > > > > > I'm not sure if this is has caused much of an impact on public image so far. There were some bigger games media outlets that ran stories early on, but the details were sketchy or incomplete, and there weren't follow up stories keeping it in the public's eye. They've certainly ruffled some feathers within the game's community, but I think it's mostly remained contained here. The community's opinion surely carries some weight, since we are the ones buying their gems and expansions, but it always helps get things done when there is a stream of public information directing more eyes onto the mess. > > > > > > It's kind of sad that bad PR is just about the only thing that can motivate companies to do the right thing. I don't enjoy seeing a game I like being dragged through the mud for the sake of trying to make it better. > > > > You won't be seeing me around if that's the case, I'm sure you all mean well but I don't know any of your back grounds in the field of Computer Science, or Net Working, or Cyber Security; to inspire me to bother logging in again and spending money it's up to ANet to give a response to gain back my trust. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way I do, we very well may be part of a vocal minority. I've been keeping my self busy between a Beta Invite I recently got which inspired me to make a prepurchase, and an Alpha invite which I'm sure is just a ploy to get me to resub for that game (which worked). I won't mention the two games names out of decency toward ANet but I'm sure any one that's a multi MMO hobbyist like I am can figure out which titles (they are in the top 5 easily, possibly top 3 profitable companies at this time). > > > > I'd like to believe ANet is on the right side of this, but their silence doesn't look good to me and it doesn't inspire good faith. > > All AAA mmorpg do the kind of checks Anet does, so not sure what the point of i'm gonna leave threat to move to another game is about. all proper AAA mmorpg SHOULD do runtime security checks to PROTECT us and the game integrity, we should want it to happen. There's a lot of melodramatic half baked nonsense going around by armchair detectives who like drama quite frankly. You have to apply common sense to work out what's likely and whats fantasy and what is the intent. Not everything in life is shady evil corporations (well blizzard is borderline on the greed front) and dodgy evil developers, most mmo publishers are filled with people just like us who care about the quality of their products and work just like we do. What do you think insulting me is going to do, make me cower in subservience and hold out my wallet to ANet? Warden by Blizzard is public and open, nothing to hide there; ANet was sneaky and under handed that is my problem and it is on them to bring me back into the fold. I've dropped Cable Providers and Cell Phone Carriers for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > Looked at it quickly. They are unaware that this reddit thread was update, with some findings that would lead toward the content being filtered out before being sent. > > So... our "circle" is actually more aware of these things than general news websites that are very happy to find stuff like that that will excite people, but aren't exactly trying to be fair and seek updates on a situation. > > But sure, company bashing is fun and a rising trend. > > Rekt.. soooo rekt :) Your point exactly? I'm talking public perception, so your inner circle is informed while the people talking about your game to interested out siders have a completely different narrative. You need to see the forest for the Trees before you realize you're playing Rift 2 years from now because ANet isn't getting ahead of these things such as Mountgate or the current situation, it will become a habit for them and it will appear to out siders that they are hiding something like Trion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liewec.2896 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 i'm just glad they made it so it only checks to see if the programs are running, i have cheatengine, its awesome for single player games :smile: there is absolutely nothing wrong with using cheats to make single player games more fun, i'm glad they are banning cheaters in multiplayer games though :-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > > > Looked at it quickly. They are unaware that this reddit thread was update, with some findings that would lead toward the content being filtered out before being sent. > > > So... our "circle" is actually more aware of these things than general news websites that are very happy to find stuff like that that will excite people, but aren't exactly trying to be fair and seek updates on a situation. > > > But sure, company bashing is fun and a rising trend. > > > > Rekt.. soooo rekt :) > > Your point exactly? I'm talking public perception, so your inner circle is informed while the people talking about your game to interested out siders have a completely different narrative. You need to see the forest for the Trees before you realize you're playing Rift 2 years from now because ANet isn't getting ahead of these things such as Mountgate or the current situation, it will become a habit for them and it will appear to out siders that they are hiding something like Trion. I am guessing if ANET suddenly changed the sky to green, you would find a conspiracy to unravel. As for speaking about public perception.. I think we both know its purely just your own perception your speaking of... lol mountgate, anything else you wish to pour salt into.. maybe BLC's or "insert any anet decision that does not fit with your narrative". C'mon, get over the S J W mullarkey.. players cheated they got stung. Methods used have not broken any laws, they were justified by the sheer amount of hacking and botting going on in the game so if you feel so strongly about it and you genuinely believe laws have been broken do something about it instead of making out your speaking for the MMO universe regarding perception of a company just because some cheats got caught and don't get to go past go and collect their gummy bears for 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > I'd be very surprised if that ticket gets anything more than a canned response telling you that they cannot discuss details of their detection methods. If they do tell us anything, which I think they really need to, it would be in the form of a carefully considered public statement that had been approved at multiple levels. That's just above the pay grade of a CSR/GM until the higher-ups decide what to say on the matter. > > > > > > > > I very much want to see an official clarification on what data was sent to Anet. A confirmation that they did not collect anything other than reports on detected cheat programs, as suggested by the redditors that did research on the game client. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if this is has caused much of an impact on public image so far. There were some bigger games media outlets that ran stories early on, but the details were sketchy or incomplete, and there weren't follow up stories keeping it in the public's eye. They've certainly ruffled some feathers within the game's community, but I think it's mostly remained contained here. The community's opinion surely carries some weight, since we are the ones buying their gems and expansions, but it always helps get things done when there is a stream of public information directing more eyes onto the mess. > > > > > > > > It's kind of sad that bad PR is just about the only thing that can motivate companies to do the right thing. I don't enjoy seeing a game I like being dragged through the mud for the sake of trying to make it better. > > > > > > You won't be seeing me around if that's the case, I'm sure you all mean well but I don't know any of your back grounds in the field of Computer Science, or Net Working, or Cyber Security; to inspire me to bother logging in again and spending money it's up to ANet to give a response to gain back my trust. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way I do, we very well may be part of a vocal minority. I've been keeping my self busy between a Beta Invite I recently got which inspired me to make a prepurchase, and an Alpha invite which I'm sure is just a ploy to get me to resub for that game (which worked). I won't mention the two games names out of decency toward ANet but I'm sure any one that's a multi MMO hobbyist like I am can figure out which titles (they are in the top 5 easily, possibly top 3 profitable companies at this time). > > > > > > I'd like to believe ANet is on the right side of this, but their silence doesn't look good to me and it doesn't inspire good faith. > > > > All AAA mmorpg do the kind of checks Anet does, so not sure what the point of i'm gonna leave threat to move to another game is about. all proper AAA mmorpg SHOULD do runtime security checks to PROTECT us and the game integrity, we should want it to happen. There's a lot of melodramatic half baked nonsense going around by armchair detectives who like drama quite frankly. You have to apply common sense to work out what's likely and whats fantasy and what is the intent. Not everything in life is shady evil corporations (well blizzard is borderline on the greed front) and dodgy evil developers, most mmo publishers are filled with people just like us who care about the quality of their products and work just like we do. > > What do you think insulting me is going to do, make me cower in subservience and hold out my wallet to ANet? Warden by Blizzard is public and open, nothing to hide there; ANet was sneaky and under handed that is my problem and it is on them to bring me back into the fold. I've dropped Cable Providers and Cell Phone Carriers for less. 'sneaky'? what are you going on about? You really think all of Blizzard security measure are public lol, really? Do you think they should be, really? lets backtrack, the problem stemmed from players running cheating programs repeatedly at the same time as GW2, not Anet catching these people. If you are stupid enough to do that then you get what you deserve, the rest is just melodramatic ill-informed noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikigami.4013 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > A blanket consent might not be enough when private data is concerned. [...] You can try as long as you want to make people believe that what was sent was private or personal data, it wasn't. The hash of a program/process on your PC is not personal data because it does not hold any information about your person (or your belongings/contracts like bank accounts, debts, employment and so on). Now you may once again answer with the favorite thing people in this thread answer, and that is a highly unlikely and completely hypothetical scenario like "Someone may run a program named ihaveaids.exe on his PC and by transmitting the hash of that program people may learn that he has aids". Regardless of the scenario you come up with, no program running on your PC will be proof of anything, so it only leads to an assumption and not facts (data). And one more point. At least by the definition of european law, for something to be considered personal/private data it requires that the recipient of that data already knows your identity (your real name, not just some email you used to register) or is able to determine your identity/real name without any additional knowledge or investigation. This will never be the case, as no email provider will provide the real name of a customer to any company just for asking, and many email providers don't even know the real name of their customers in the first place. GW2 accounts are registered by email, not by real name. I have had my account since release and was never asked for my real name, nor did I have to identify myself for registering. As stated before, to ArenaNet you are just an account name and an email, even when you have purchased something from them because the financial transactions are handled by DigitalRiver. Nothing they will transmit to their servers will legally be "personal data" as long as they don't know who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think their public perception is doing just fine.. you could of course look at other MMO's that offer the same kind of B2P deal you get here, with the amount of QoL additions you get here, with the same amount of free content you get here... ooh and that doesn't have the same plethora of hackers,bots and outright cheats as here. > > > > > > A few cheats got caught out and now its turned into some S J W crusade in the hope it will create a U-turn - hopefully to no avail. > > > > > > > > > > I understand it's a little difficult to see what's going on outside your circle but here's a little insight for you. > > > > > > > > > > http://massivelyop.com/2018/04/14/guild-wars-2-used-client-side-spyware-to-aid-its-latest-purge-of-potential-cheaters/ > > > > > > > > People use the term spyware way to liberally. > > > > > > > > You consented to this. It's stopped being spyware at that moment. > > > > Additionally, it's hardly spyware as all that was done was a simple extraction and call of the Windows API. > > > > > > > > Ironically, the people wanting 3rd party "anti-cheat" are opening up more security risk, not less. So pick your poison "Privacy Rights Activist". > > > > > > That doesn't entitle them to any more of my confidence, time, or money. Being on the right side of a contract doesn't mean much if you have customers that like me that no longer trust them and are holding back financially while waiting for some transparency in good faith. > > > > > > It's only money right? > > > > That's a good point. Pointing to the agreements is fine and dandy from a legal perspective. But it doesn't do any favors when there are customers angry over something that has happened. If people are asking for some sort of explanation or justification, pulling out the ToS is kind of like saying "nyah nyha, you can't do anything, so be quiet". While technically true, it's a bit insulting and only makes the situation worse. > > when you say people, you mean those that got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.. of course they are going to protest their innocence.. so I am glad they are angry, so are legit players angry at ANET for not acting on all these issues with hackers, botters, AFK minion farmers etc a lot sooner. > But don't worry they will all be back in game by now testing the boundaries and the detections already and the hackdevs will of patched their hacks.. ANET has the next move, I just hope they keep taking the next moves and not let it fester again. I mean those that actually understand the massive problems in the method Anet used to determine who to ban. They made it perfectly clear in their own statement that it was their intent to ban players that were not actually cheating. And that is in addition to the detection method Anet used being known to produce false positives. And just so it's clear. I am not, nor have I ever been, banned or suspended from GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Shikigami.4013" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > A blanket consent might not be enough when private data is concerned. [...] > > You can try as long as you want to make people believe that what was sent was private or personal data, it wasn't. The hash of a program/process on your PC is not personal data because it does not hold any information about your person (or your belongings/contracts like bank accounts, debts, employment and so on). > > Now you may once again answer with the favorite thing people in this thread answer, and that is a highly unlikely and completely hypothetical scenario like "Someone may run a program named ihaveaids.exe on his PC and by transmitting the hash of that program people may learn that he has aids". Regardless of the scenario you come up with, no program running on your PC will be proof of anything, so it only leads to an assumption and not facts (data). Data does have need to hold any information about my person for it to be considered private. You're trying to blur the line between private and personally identifiable. And Anet already has everything they need to identify me anyway (more on that below), so whatever they might have collected after retrieving a list of everything running on my computer can be linked back to me personally. > > And one more point. At least by the definition of european law, for something to be considered personal/private data it requires that the recipient of that data already knows your identity (your real name, not just some email you used to register) or is able to determine your identity/real name without any additional knowledge or investigation. This will never be the case, as no email provider will provide the real name of a customer to any company just for asking, and many email providers don't even know the real name of their customers in the first place. GW2 accounts are registered by email, not by real name. I have had my account since release and was never asked for my real name, nor did I have to identify myself for registering. As stated before, to ArenaNet you are just an account name and an email, even when you have purchased something from them because the financial transactions are handled by DigitalRiver. Nothing they will transmit to their servers will legally be "personal data" as long as they don't know who you are. > > I can guarantee that you are completely wrong about that, at least for a portion of the playerbase. My GW2 account page displays my real name as well as my phone number (from registering for SMS 2-factor authentication). And Arenanet already knows my mailing address, because that information was taken for Guild Wars 1 account registration. That GW1 account was merged into my GW2 account when I signed up for GW2. edit: found something else interesting If you register for a new GW2 right now, immediately after confirming your email address, you are asked for your phone number for SMS authentication. It is not required to give the number or use that service, but it is absolutely asked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Shikigami.4013" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > A blanket consent might not be enough when private data is concerned. [...] > > You can try as long as you want to make people believe that what was sent was private or personal data, it wasn't. The hash of a program/process on your PC is not personal data because it does not hold any information about your person (or your belongings/contracts like bank accounts, debts, employment and so on). > > Now you may once again answer with the favorite thing people in this thread answer, and that is a highly unlikely and completely hypothetical scenario like "Someone may run a program named ihaveaids.exe on his PC and by transmitting the hash of that program people may learn that he has aids". Regardless of the scenario you come up with, no program running on your PC will be proof of anything, so it only leads to an assumption and not facts (data). > > **And one more point. At least by the definition of european law, for something to be considered personal/private data it requires that the recipient of that data already knows your identity (your real name, not just some email you used to register) or is able to determine your identity/real name without any additional knowledge or investigation.** This will never be the case, as no email provider will provide the real name of a customer to any company just for asking, and many email providers don't even know the real name of their customers in the first place. GW2 accounts are registered by email, not by real name. I have had my account since release and was never asked for my real name, nor did I have to identify myself for registering. As stated before, to ArenaNet you are just an account name and an email, even when you have purchased something from them because the financial transactions are handled by DigitalRiver. Nothing they will transmit to their servers will legally be "personal data" as long as they don't know who you are. > > The recipient Arenanet is fully aware of who you when you make those online purchases it completely identifies you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > I made a Support Ticket 2 days ago asking for clarification on what this 'program' collected and what they kept, and to discuss the effects this is happening on their public perception through MMO Blogs and the importance of making a public statement to improve their image; I was wondering what the turn around time is to get a response. This is all on topic since it relates to the program that lead to the bans. If you want to know how replies to the support tickets go for this issue throw me a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > The worst part about this whole incident is Anet feeling like they are entitled to spy on our private property. > > > Let's see how this pans out in the long haul lol You need to understand the ToS. You pay to access THEIR system and software. If you don't like how that software interacts with your computer, don't run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > The worst part about this whole incident is Anet feeling like they are entitled to spy on our private property. > > > > > > Let's see how this pans out in the long haul lol > > This isn't your private property though .. understand the ToS. You pay to access THEIR system and software. if you don't like how that software interacts with your computer, don't run it. Blanket ToS's really don't hold up under scrutiny. I mean you can completely stay in your world, but don't demand everyone conform to it. Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > The worst part about this whole incident is Anet feeling like they are entitled to spy on our private property. > > > > > > > > > Let's see how this pans out in the long haul lol > > > > This isn't your private property though .. understand the ToS. You pay to access THEIR system and software. if you don't like how that software interacts with your computer, don't run it. > > Blanket ToS's really don't hold up under scrutiny. I mean you can completely stay in your world, but don't demand everyone conform to it. > > > Thank You This isn't about scrutiny or courts or law. It simply sets the expectation for behavior ... and Anet will act on it. I mean ... feel free to ignore it ... see how that works out for you. I stay in the world that is relevant to the game ... it's worked out for me thus far. Ask the people that got bans how well ignoring the TOS worked for them. The reality of the world IS the Tos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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