Account suspension discussion [merged]

[Voltekka.2375]

I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?"

> >

> > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone

>

> By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything.

>

> So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has.

>

> What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet.....

>

>

> That get ya up to speed?

 

No you didn't simply pose a question, you posed a question, got your answer, went back to the previous one, got your answer, went back to children, got your answer... rince and repeat, completely ignoring each answer to was previously given to you.

 

The way you defend your "rights", you would have a problem with all game companies, and all companies that have ToS in general. The mere fact that you keep saying Anet while constantly deviating from the actual topic speaks volumes about the reason you're here.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

 

Convoluted logic:

 

A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

A: The ToS is invalid.

Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

 

That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

@"IndigoSundown.5419" Pretty accurate so far.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?"

> > > > >

> > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone

> > > >

> > > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything.

> > > >

> > > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has.

> > > >

> > > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet.....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > That get ya up to speed?

> > >

> > > Yes, you want to play a hypothetical and ignore the reality and facts of what actually happened. Once again, the topic is about why players got suspended. This latest detour is not swaying anyone as far as the actual discussion.

> > >

> > > All it's doing is telling everyone the thread has very much run its course.

> >

> > How old are you and how long have you been playing GW2?

>

> errmmm really.. that's just either outright rude or very,very spooky

 

viable question in context of discussion

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

 

They didn't ban for people using cheats. They banned for having them on their computer while playing GW2. They never proved it. They also used spyware to get this information.

 

These are facts. Yes per their UA they can ban you at anytime, but we are not arguing that.

 

We've moved on to the actual legality of said spyware. People here have the impression that Arenanet is untouchable b/c of that UA. I posed a simple scenario that has taken place all over the world and no one can refute it. The simple fact that you have to have expressed consent to install spyware and to do so w/out it is a crime no one here can get around that especially when they somehow believe a child can give consent to such actions. I haven't even delved into the Epic vs 14yr old buy lawsuit, the actual law that you can't transmit information on EU people across the atlantic to the US, etc, etc, etc.

 

[mrstealth.6701]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB

> > > > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway)

> > > > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi)

> > >

> > > The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account.

> > >

> > > They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible.

> > >

> > > It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware.

> > >

> > > We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people.

> >

> > The ESRB rating and the age group the game is targeted/marketed to are not the same thing. They often align because if you want to target/market to 13 year olds, you aren't going to have a level of violence or language that would cause it to be rated M. But there are other games that despite E or E10+ ratings, are not intended for or marketed to children. This could be for a variety of reasons such as complexity, difficulty, or simply not aligning with common likes/interests of kids.

> >

> > Despite their kid-friendly ratings I don't see many young kids enjoying the difficulty of a puzzle game like The Witness or having much interest in the broad range of [insert dull job here] Simulator games.

> >

> > And I think just about every game trailer outside of indie games has an ESRB rating thrown on it.

>

> They specifically state 13+ to register. They specifically show their ESRB rating at the beginning of advertisements.

 

The sky is blue. The dog says "woof". Writing those two statements down on the same piece of paper does not make them have anything to do with each other...or if the same person/company says them...they're listed on the same video...etc.

 

The game could be rated E10+ if there was no blood, a little less violence, and a few words removed/changed. That doe not mean the game would be marketed to 10 year olds, or that they would be permitted to play it.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> So are you volunteering for a ban or just going to ignore where we left off you refusing to admit Anet banned players wrongfully?5

 

.

 

> @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> The sky is blue. The dog says "woof". Writing those two statements down on the same piece of paper does not make them have anything to do with each other.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB

> > > > > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway)

> > > > > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi)

> > > >

> > > > The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account.

> > > >

> > > > They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible.

> > > >

> > > > It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware.

> > > >

> > > > We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people.

> > >

> > > The ESRB rating and the age group the game is targeted/marketed to are not the same thing. They often align because if you want to target/market to 13 year olds, you aren't going to have a level of violence or language that would cause it to be rated M. But there are other games that despite E or E10+ ratings, are not intended for or marketed to children. This could be for a variety of reasons such as complexity, difficulty, or simply not aligning with common likes/interests of kids.

> > >

> > > Despite their kid-friendly ratings I don't see many young kids enjoying the difficulty of a puzzle game like The Witness or having much interest in the broad range of [insert dull job here] Simulator games.

> > >

> > > And I think just about every game trailer outside of indie games has an ESRB rating thrown on it.

> >

> > They specifically state 13+ to register. They specifically show their ESRB rating at the beginning of advertisements.

>

> The sky is blue. The dog says "woof". Writing those two statements down on the same piece of paper does not make them have anything to do with each other.

>

> The game could be rated E10+ if there was no blood, a little less violence, and a few words removed/changed. That doe nots mean the game would be marketed to 10 year olds, or that they are would be permitted to play it.

 

If they put on the box that a 10 year old can register an account then yes it would. In this instance these two things have EVERYTHING to do with each other.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> it's already been established they falsely banned people.

* ANet _suspended_ people for running cheatware and editware software while using GW2. They have the right to do so, because they own the servers and they get to decide what is or isn't permissible.

* According to the studio, some of the suspensions were a mistake; ANet reversed those.

 

That's not the same as "falsely banned."

 

****

Separately, we didn't know that ANet cared at all about what was _running_ on our machines; we thought they only cared about whether we used software in impermissible ways. So this caught us by surprise.

 

****

Also, how did ANet discover that people were running what they call illicit-software while GW2 was up? They used the Windows API to report on programs that met certain specifications. They also have the right to do this and it's not unusual for game studios (as well as other companies) to do this. For example, anti-malware does this all the time.

 

What's new is that we didn't weren't sure whether ANet did this, too.

 

****

Also separately, the duration of the suspensions was longer than we've seen for past ban waves. This also caught us by surprise.

 

****

So this is another one of those situations in which ANet did something for which they have the authority (and perhaps responsibility) to do, but they did it in a way that made many of us feel the need to take a shower, including many who weren't suspended.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Question:

 

> @"Rankomonaut.4708" said:

> Hello players, did anyone get the suspension for no reason aswell?

>

> My wife and me just finished our wvw dailies and suddenly got the suspension at the same time.

>

> "Your Guild Wars 2 account has been suspended for modifying or tampering with the game, which is a breach of the User Agreement and Rules of Conduct. Access will be restored in 4320 hour."

>

> Question is... what did I do? I only use TacO for trib SAB (although after last week I'm done, so I quit it.) I also use the arcdps buildtemplate thing - for the build template only.

>

> Strange is that my wife does not use any of these. Help?

 

Answer:

 

So what happens when someone breaks the Rules of Conduct?

In the interests of keeping things pleasant for the majority of players, we’ve set up a system to deal with lapses in behavior. We think you’ll find the system is fair, balanced, and reasonable.

 

The system involves two types of administrative action: temporary account suspensions and permanent account terminations. Those who fail to observe the Rules of Conduct usually will have an administrative “mark” placed on their Guild Wars 2 account that results in a temporary account suspension. However, in the case of an extreme breach-such as using a game exploit, attempting to hack the servers, or acquiring a large number of marks and moving into a “frequent violation” status-the account will be permanently closed.

 

When an account is temporarily suspended, the player is unable to access his account for a specific period of time. Under normal circumstances, a player can clear marks from his/her account and eliminate the risk of lengthy suspension simply by obeying the Rules of Conduct. On the other hand, if a player accrues another mark on his account within a relatively short period of time, the subsequent suspension will be longer. A record is retained

of each player’s complete account history, and accounts that are frequently involved in violations of the Rules of Conduct and/or the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement (the “User Agreement”) are subject to termination.

 

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-conduct-breaches-outcomes/

 

Reason for Suspension:

 

Yesterday we suspended 1,583 accounts for a period of 6 months. 1516 accounts were suspended because we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs over a significant number of hours during a multi-week period earlier this year. We targeted programs that allow players to cheat and gain unfair gameplay advantages, even if those programs have other, more benign uses.

 

Programs Detected:

 

CheatEngine

Nabster

GW2MHRexe

UNF

MMOMINION

The remaining 67 accounts also received suspensions for a period of six months because they were directly associated to one of the 1516 accounts and also had one or more previous suspensions related to botting or hacking; those suspensions will be reversed.

 

Any program not listed above that was also in use by an account which was suspended is coincidental and had no bearing in our decision to suspend the account.

 

If you have questions related to the reasons for the suspension of your own account, please contact Customer Support for additional information.

 

We understand that your Guild Wars 2 accounts are important to you and we take that trust very seriously. Our goal is to continue to foster a safe and fair community for all. We believe that everyone deserves transparency, which is why we're providing this additional information.

 

Edit: This message was shared on our French, German, and Spanish forums on 16 April 2018, after localization was complete.)

 

Source: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255#Comment_476255

 

The question has been asked and answered.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> ****

> Also, how did ANet discover that people were running what they call illicit-software while GW2 was up? They used the Windows API to report on programs that met certain specifications. They also have the right to do this and it's not unusual for game studios (as well as other companies) to do this. For example, anti-malware does this all the time.

>

> What's new is that we didn't weren't sure whether ANet did this, too.

 

As a side note, the other common thing that does this are ... commercial anti-cheating systems used by other game developers. The most significant differences here are that (a) ANet didn't force a rootkit style compromise on your machine to be able to do this, and (b) they wrote the code themselves, rather than just buying it.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > ****

> > Also, how did ANet discover that people were running what they call illicit-software while GW2 was up? They used the Windows API to report on programs that met certain specifications. They also have the right to do this and it's not unusual for game studios (as well as other companies) to do this. For example, anti-malware does this all the time.

> >

> > What's new is that we didn't weren't sure whether ANet did this, too.

>

> As a side note, the other common thing that does this are ... commercial anti-cheating systems used by other game developers. The most significant differences here are that (a) ANet didn't force a rootkit style compromise on your machine to be able to do this, and (b) they wrote the code themselves, rather than just buying it.

 

No they read things that didn't pertain to the game client. If they would have stuck to the game client only would anyone have a problem and would we really have falsely banned players? I'm sure we'd have a small amount of false positives since they never did the age old tried and true method of a GM/CSR/etc prove it.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

> >

> > Convoluted logic:

> >

> > A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

> > Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

> > A: The ToS is invalid.

> > Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

> > A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

> > Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

> > A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

> >

> > That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

>

> Yes Anet used spyware. That's true.

>

> The UA will not hold up trying to validate something illegal. I did not say the UA is invalid for every person in every country. You have to look at all the laws and how they pertain to the UA and actions of installing spyware. You could even make a VERY good case that an adult consenting to the UA didn't actually consent to the installation of spyware based on the wording of the UA & how the spyware was implemented.

>

> Yes children are allowed to register accounts for GW2 and Arenanet. The UA is invalid in those cases and them installing spyware on that computer is illegal.

>

> Gist of it

 

So put your money on the table, engage the suits if you think you have all the proof you need that ANET broke any laws in whatever they did and how they did it.... personally I think you have zero to work with and are basing all your "facts" on heresay and conjecture.

Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums.. so if you think you have that rock solid case.. put the money to good use and make it happen.

[mrstealth.6701]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > > > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB

> > > > > > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway)

> > > > > > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi)

> > > > >

> > > > > The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account.

> > > > >

> > > > > They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people.

> > > >

> > > > The ESRB rating and the age group the game is targeted/marketed to are not the same thing. They often align because if you want to target/market to 13 year olds, you aren't going to have a level of violence or language that would cause it to be rated M. But there are other games that despite E or E10+ ratings, are not intended for or marketed to children. This could be for a variety of reasons such as complexity, difficulty, or simply not aligning with common likes/interests of kids.

> > > >

> > > > Despite their kid-friendly ratings I don't see many young kids enjoying the difficulty of a puzzle game like The Witness or having much interest in the broad range of [insert dull job here] Simulator games.

> > > >

> > > > And I think just about every game trailer outside of indie games has an ESRB rating thrown on it.

> > >

> > > They specifically state 13+ to register. They specifically show their ESRB rating at the beginning of advertisements.

> >

> > The sky is blue. The dog says "woof". Writing those two statements down on the same piece of paper does not make them have anything to do with each other.

> >

> > The game could be rated E10+ if there was no blood, a little less violence, and a few words removed/changed. That doe nots mean the game would be marketed to 10 year olds, or that they are would be permitted to play it.

>

> If they put on the box that a 10 year old can register an account then yes it would. In this instance these two things have EVERYTHING to do with each other.

 

There is nothing to show that the two things aligning is anything more than coincidence. It's quite possible, maybe even likely, that Anet designed the content of the game in a way to have them align, but have no way of knowing that. You are not very likely to get anywhere with such an argument in any legal proceeding.

 

Fun example:

TERA is rated M. TERA's ToS allows 13 year olds to play the game, though it does require that a parent actually complete the registration for them.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

> > >

> > > Convoluted logic:

> > >

> > > A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

> > > Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

> > > A: The ToS is invalid.

> > > Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

> > > A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

> > > Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

> > > A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

> > >

> > > That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

> >

> > Yes Anet used spyware. That's true.

> >

> > The UA will not hold up trying to validate something illegal. I did not say the UA is invalid for every person in every country. You have to look at all the laws and how they pertain to the UA and actions of installing spyware. You could even make a VERY good case that an adult consenting to the UA didn't actually consent to the installation of spyware based on the wording of the UA & how the spyware was implemented.

> >

> > Yes children are allowed to register accounts for GW2 and Arenanet. The UA is invalid in those cases and them installing spyware on that computer is illegal.

> >

> > Gist of it

>

> So put your money on the table, engage the suits if you think you have all the proof you need that ANET broke any laws in whatever they did and how they did it.... personally I think you have zero to work with and are basing all your "facts" on heresay and conjecture.

> Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums.. so if you think you have that rock solid case.. put the money to good use and make it happen.

 

Are even reading what I'm writing? There is zero hostility coming from me; yet here you are being over zealous & hostile in your defense of a company who installed spyware on your computer. You also imply I hack and that I'm banned. Here's a nice piece of information for you: If you were recently banned from the game you are banned from the forums.

 

The fervor, hostility, and outrage you have towards me are extremely unwarranted. I'm not attacking you. It seems you think I'm attacking your personal world, and injunction with my question on someone's age I'm beginning to understand why.

 

Please calm down a bit and come back. I'll be here and we can have a nice discussion afterwords. Sound good?

 

Thanks!!

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

The problem with the "they installed spyware" argument is simply the fact that the argument is running off of the precised notion that spyware is usually bad and therefore is bad 100% of the time.

The problem is, that is an absolute falsehood, spyware is usually bad because it is usually used for nefarious deeds, but in certain circumstances it is also used for good deeds.... such as what Microsoft does with certain parts of telemetry, which is used for debugging and improving the OS as a whole while minimizing their QA budget (they dont need to test on every system variant for an example). Telemetry would technically fall under the "spyware" category, but it serves a very useful and positive role to both Microsoft and the user....

The same can be said for Microsoft reading the App Id's that are basically already provided via the OS to all applications ever made... I could make the same system in a few seconds If i wanted, its not exactly anything revealing.... you give them far more useful and potentially incriminating data when you buy the game and sign up for an account in the first place....

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

> > > >

> > > > Convoluted logic:

> > > >

> > > > A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

> > > > Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

> > > > A: The ToS is invalid.

> > > > Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

> > > > A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

> > > > Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

> > > > A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

> > > >

> > > > That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

> > >

> > > Yes Anet used spyware. That's true.

> > >

> > > The UA will not hold up trying to validate something illegal. I did not say the UA is invalid for every person in every country. You have to look at all the laws and how they pertain to the UA and actions of installing spyware. You could even make a VERY good case that an adult consenting to the UA didn't actually consent to the installation of spyware based on the wording of the UA & how the spyware was implemented.

> > >

> > > Yes children are allowed to register accounts for GW2 and Arenanet. The UA is invalid in those cases and them installing spyware on that computer is illegal.

> > >

> > > Gist of it

> >

> > So put your money on the table, engage the suits if you think you have all the proof you need that ANET broke any laws in whatever they did and how they did it.... personally I think you have zero to work with and are basing all your "facts" on heresay and conjecture.

> > Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums.. so if you think you have that rock solid case.. put the money to good use and make it happen.

>

> Are even reading what I'm writing? There is zero hostility coming from me; yet here you are being over zealous & hostile in your defense of a company who installed spyware on your computer. You also imply I hack and that I'm banned. Here's a nice piece of information for you: If you were recently banned from the game you are banned from the forums.

>

> The fervor, hostility, and outrage you have towards me are extremely unwarranted. I'm not attacking you. It seems you think I'm attacking your personal world, and injunction with my question on someone's age I'm beginning to understand why.

>

> Please calm down a bit and come back. I'll be here and we can have a nice discussion afterwords. Sound good?

>

> Thanks!!

 

huh.. I'm not being hostile.. I merely advised if your feeling so strongly about this and you feel you have all the necessary evidence rather then just some baseless accusations made by others.. put some money down and get the suits to get it sorted legally.. that's not an attack, its not hostile its just logical thinking. I have no reason to attack you and where have I stated I thin your banned.. you are making stuff up and putting words into both our mouths.... I know if your banned in game you loose your forum access, that too is common sense - though of course making new accounts or alt accounts is a thing as well I guess.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > > > > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB

> > > > > > > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway)

> > > > > > > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ESRB rating and the age group the game is targeted/marketed to are not the same thing. They often align because if you want to target/market to 13 year olds, you aren't going to have a level of violence or language that would cause it to be rated M. But there are other games that despite E or E10+ ratings, are not intended for or marketed to children. This could be for a variety of reasons such as complexity, difficulty, or simply not aligning with common likes/interests of kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Despite their kid-friendly ratings I don't see many young kids enjoying the difficulty of a puzzle game like The Witness or having much interest in the broad range of [insert dull job here] Simulator games.

> > > > >

> > > > > And I think just about every game trailer outside of indie games has an ESRB rating thrown on it.

> > > >

> > > > They specifically state 13+ to register. They specifically show their ESRB rating at the beginning of advertisements.

> > >

> > > The sky is blue. The dog says "woof". Writing those two statements down on the same piece of paper does not make them have anything to do with each other.

> > >

> > > The game could be rated E10+ if there was no blood, a little less violence, and a few words removed/changed. That doe nots mean the game would be marketed to 10 year olds, or that they are would be permitted to play it.

> >

> > If they put on the box that a 10 year old can register an account then yes it would. In this instance these two things have EVERYTHING to do with each other.

>

> There is nothing to show that the two things aligning is anything more than coincidence. It's quite possible, maybe even likely, that Anet designed the content of the game in a way to have them align, but have no way of knowing that. You are not very likely to get anywhere with such an argument in any legal proceeding.

>

> Fun example:

> TERA is rated M. TERA's ToS allows 13 year olds to play the game, though it does require that a parent actually complete the registration for them.

 

http://tera.enmasse.com/legal/terms-of-service

 

Can you point me to the place in that very lovely ToS where they can install spyware on your computer?

 

Also the game is now free to play and is now squarely in the Epic vs 14 yr old lawsuit realm. Read up on that one.

 

Thanks though!

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > > I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

> > > > >

> > > > > Convoluted logic:

> > > > >

> > > > > A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

> > > > > Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

> > > > > A: The ToS is invalid.

> > > > > Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

> > > > > A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

> > > > > Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

> > > > > A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

> > > >

> > > > Yes Anet used spyware. That's true.

> > > >

> > > > The UA will not hold up trying to validate something illegal. I did not say the UA is invalid for every person in every country. You have to look at all the laws and how they pertain to the UA and actions of installing spyware. You could even make a VERY good case that an adult consenting to the UA didn't actually consent to the installation of spyware based on the wording of the UA & how the spyware was implemented.

> > > >

> > > > Yes children are allowed to register accounts for GW2 and Arenanet. The UA is invalid in those cases and them installing spyware on that computer is illegal.

> > > >

> > > > Gist of it

> > >

> > > So put your money on the table, engage the suits if you think you have all the proof you need that ANET broke any laws in whatever they did and how they did it.... personally I think you have zero to work with and are basing all your "facts" on heresay and conjecture.

> > > Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums.. so if you think you have that rock solid case.. put the money to good use and make it happen.

> >

> > Are even reading what I'm writing? There is zero hostility coming from me; yet here you are being over zealous & hostile in your defense of a company who installed spyware on your computer. You also imply I hack and that I'm banned. Here's a nice piece of information for you: If you were recently banned from the game you are banned from the forums.

> >

> > The fervor, hostility, and outrage you have towards me are extremely unwarranted. I'm not attacking you. It seems you think I'm attacking your personal world, and injunction with my question on someone's age I'm beginning to understand why.

> >

> > Please calm down a bit and come back. I'll be here and we can have a nice discussion afterwords. Sound good?

> >

> > Thanks!!

>

> huh.. I'm not being hostile.. I merely advised if your feeling so strongly about this and you feel you have all the necessary evidence rather then just some baseless accusations made by others.. put some money down and get the suits to get it sorted legally.. that's not an attack, its not hostile its just logical thinking. I have no reason to attack you and where have I stated I thin your banned.. you are making stuff up and putting words into both our mouths.... I know if your banned in game you loose your forum access, that too is common sense - though of course making new accounts or alt accounts is a thing as well I guess.

 

"**Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums**"

 

Straight from your post.

 

Pure hostility. Also f2p accounts can't post on forums and you can't have 2 accounts to post here with...they ban them. Also do you really believe they wouldn't find my alt account if I was banned with how I'm posting here?

 

The rest of your post was address by me awhile ago. I will not address it again b/c you can go back and read it.

 

Thank you

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> Pure hostility. Also f2p accounts can't post on forums and you can't have 2 accounts to post here with...they ban them. Also do you really believe they wouldn't find my alt account if I was banned with how I'm posting here?

 

"Get banned or else you won't have an argument against me." How about that for hostility. Well it's basically what this person is doing here.

How is that working out?

 

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> The rest of your post was address by me awhile ago. I will not address it again b/c you can go back and read it.

 

Go back and read 10 pages ago, maybe even 20 at this point. You basically ask the same questions that are answered to you, they'll all completely off topic, it shouldn't be too hard too find.

 

Anet is actually super nice, this thread should have been closed a while ago.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> The problem with the "they installed spyware" argument is simply the fact that the argument is running off of the precised notion that spyware is usually bad and therefore is bad 100% of the time.

> The problem is, that is an absolute falsehood, spyware is usually bad because it is usually used for nefarious deeds, but in certain circumstances it is also used for good deeds.... such as what Microsoft does with certain parts of telemetry, which is used for debugging and improving the OS as a whole while minimizing their QA budget (they dont need to test on every system variant for an example). Telemetry would technically fall under the "spyware" category, but it serves a very useful and positive role to both Microsoft and the user....

> The same can be said for Microsoft reading the App Id's that are basically already provided via the OS to all applications ever made... I could make the same system in a few seconds If i wanted, its not exactly anything revealing.... you give them far more useful and potentially incriminating data when you buy the game and sign up for an account in the first place....

 

I don't think you understand my and many others stance. I don't care if it's good or bad spyware. I don't want you looking PERIOD. No business looking don't do it.

 

Anet scanning stuff connected to their product only is fine and what we all thought we signed up for. Same with Microsoft they are scanning their program...if they scanned my Mac I'd be upset. I don't have a mac btw.

 

That clear it up?

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > Pure hostility. Also f2p accounts can't post on forums and you can't have 2 accounts to post here with...they ban them. Also do you really believe they wouldn't find my alt account if I was banned with how I'm posting here?

>

> "Get banned or else you won't have an argument against me." How about that for hostility. Well it's basically what this person is doing here.

> How is that working out?

>

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > The rest of your post was address by me awhile ago. I will not address it again b/c you can go back and read it.

>

> Go back and read 10 pages ago, maybe even 20 at this point. You basically ask the same questions that are answered to you, they'll all completely off topic, it shouldn't be too hard too find.

>

> Anet is actually super nice, this thread should have been closed a while ago.

 

So he or she shouldn't be responsible for reading all the posts up till now because it's too long?

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > Pure hostility. Also f2p accounts can't post on forums and you can't have 2 accounts to post here with...they ban them. Also do you really believe they wouldn't find my alt account if I was banned with how I'm posting here?

> >

> > "Get banned or else you won't have an argument against me." How about that for hostility. Well it's basically what this person is doing here.

> > How is that working out?

> >

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > The rest of your post was address by me awhile ago. I will not address it again b/c you can go back and read it.

> >

> > Go back and read 10 pages ago, maybe even 20 at this point. You basically ask the same questions that are answered to you, they'll all completely off topic, it shouldn't be too hard too find.

> >

> > Anet is actually super nice, this thread should have been closed a while ago.

>

> So he shouldn't be responsible for reading all the posts up till now because it's too long?

 

... that is not what is said.

What is said is practice what you preach and read up the answers to the questions you've already asked.

 

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > The problem with the "they installed spyware" argument is simply the fact that the argument is running off of the precised notion that spyware is usually bad and therefore is bad 100% of the time.

> > The problem is, that is an absolute falsehood, spyware is usually bad because it is usually used for nefarious deeds, but in certain circumstances it is also used for good deeds.... such as what Microsoft does with certain parts of telemetry, which is used for debugging and improving the OS as a whole while minimizing their QA budget (they dont need to test on every system variant for an example). Telemetry would technically fall under the "spyware" category, but it serves a very useful and positive role to both Microsoft and the user....

> > The same can be said for Microsoft reading the App Id's that are basically already provided via the OS to all applications ever made... I could make the same system in a few seconds If i wanted, its not exactly anything revealing.... you give them far more useful and potentially incriminating data when you buy the game and sign up for an account in the first place....

>

> I don't think you understand my and many others stance. I don't care if it's good or bad spyware. I don't want you looking PERIOD. No business looking don't do it.

>

> Anet scanning stuff connected to their product only is fine and what we all thought we signed up for. Same with Microsoft they are scanning their program...if they scanned my Mac I'd be upset. I don't have a mac btw.

>

> That clear it up?

 

Typically that was answered before.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > > > I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Convoluted logic:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

> > > > > > Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

> > > > > > A: The ToS is invalid.

> > > > > > Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

> > > > > > A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

> > > > > > Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

> > > > > > A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes Anet used spyware. That's true.

> > > > >

> > > > > The UA will not hold up trying to validate something illegal. I did not say the UA is invalid for every person in every country. You have to look at all the laws and how they pertain to the UA and actions of installing spyware. You could even make a VERY good case that an adult consenting to the UA didn't actually consent to the installation of spyware based on the wording of the UA & how the spyware was implemented.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes children are allowed to register accounts for GW2 and Arenanet. The UA is invalid in those cases and them installing spyware on that computer is illegal.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gist of it

> > > >

> > > > So put your money on the table, engage the suits if you think you have all the proof you need that ANET broke any laws in whatever they did and how they did it.... personally I think you have zero to work with and are basing all your "facts" on heresay and conjecture.

> > > > Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums.. so if you think you have that rock solid case.. put the money to good use and make it happen.

> > >

> > > Are even reading what I'm writing? There is zero hostility coming from me; yet here you are being over zealous & hostile in your defense of a company who installed spyware on your computer. You also imply I hack and that I'm banned. Here's a nice piece of information for you: If you were recently banned from the game you are banned from the forums.

> > >

> > > The fervor, hostility, and outrage you have towards me are extremely unwarranted. I'm not attacking you. It seems you think I'm attacking your personal world, and injunction with my question on someone's age I'm beginning to understand why.

> > >

> > > Please calm down a bit and come back. I'll be here and we can have a nice discussion afterwords. Sound good?

> > >

> > > Thanks!!

> >

> > huh.. I'm not being hostile.. I merely advised if your feeling so strongly about this and you feel you have all the necessary evidence rather then just some baseless accusations made by others.. put some money down and get the suits to get it sorted legally.. that's not an attack, its not hostile its just logical thinking. I have no reason to attack you and where have I stated I thin your banned.. you are making stuff up and putting words into both our mouths.... I know if your banned in game you loose your forum access, that too is common sense - though of course making new accounts or alt accounts is a thing as well I guess.

>

> "**Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums**"

>

> Straight from your post.

>

> Pure hostility. Also f2p accounts can't post on forums and you can't have 2 accounts to post here with...they ban them. Also do you really believe they wouldn't find my alt account if I was banned with how I'm posting here?

>

> The rest of your post was address by me awhile ago. I will not address it again b/c you can go back and read it.

>

> Thank you

 

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > > > I still fail to see how the banning of people for using cheats has anything to do with... Children playing legally gw2

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Convoluted logic:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A: ANet used spyware. ANet bad.

> > > > > > Others: The monitoring function isn't spyware because the ToS allows ANet to monitor what's on your computer to prevent cheating.

> > > > > > A: The ToS is invalid.

> > > > > > Others: Why is the ToS invalid?

> > > > > > A: The ToS is invalid because children are allowed to register accounts.

> > > > > > Others: The UA includes a clause which stipulates that a parent or someone else legally responsible for the child is required to approve the child in registering the account.

> > > > > > A: ANet markets the game to 13+ and it does not say on the box that a responsible 18+ person must be involved in account registration.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's pretty much the last few pages of circular discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes Anet used spyware. That's true.

> > > > >

> > > > > The UA will not hold up trying to validate something illegal. I did not say the UA is invalid for every person in every country. You have to look at all the laws and how they pertain to the UA and actions of installing spyware. You could even make a VERY good case that an adult consenting to the UA didn't actually consent to the installation of spyware based on the wording of the UA & how the spyware was implemented.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes children are allowed to register accounts for GW2 and Arenanet. The UA is invalid in those cases and them installing spyware on that computer is illegal.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gist of it

> > > >

> > > > So put your money on the table, engage the suits if you think you have all the proof you need that ANET broke any laws in whatever they did and how they did it.... personally I think you have zero to work with and are basing all your "facts" on heresay and conjecture.

> > > > Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums.. so if you think you have that rock solid case.. put the money to good use and make it happen.

> > >

> > > Are even reading what I'm writing? There is zero hostility coming from me; yet here you are being over zealous & hostile in your defense of a company who installed spyware on your computer. You also imply I hack and that I'm banned. Here's a nice piece of information for you: If you were recently banned from the game you are banned from the forums.

> > >

> > > The fervor, hostility, and outrage you have towards me are extremely unwarranted. I'm not attacking you. It seems you think I'm attacking your personal world, and injunction with my question on someone's age I'm beginning to understand why.

> > >

> > > Please calm down a bit and come back. I'll be here and we can have a nice discussion afterwords. Sound good?

> > >

> > > Thanks!!

> >

> > huh.. I'm not being hostile.. I merely advised if your feeling so strongly about this and you feel you have all the necessary evidence rather then just some baseless accusations made by others.. put some money down and get the suits to get it sorted legally.. that's not an attack, its not hostile its just logical thinking. I have no reason to attack you and where have I stated I thin your banned.. you are making stuff up and putting words into both our mouths.... I know if your banned in game you loose your forum access, that too is common sense - though of course making new accounts or alt accounts is a thing as well I guess.

>

> "**Funnily enough this is the exact stuff that the hack devs are advising players banned to come out with on the forums**"

>

> Straight from your post.

>

> Pure hostility. Also f2p accounts can't post on forums and you can't have 2 accounts to post here with...they ban them. Also do you really believe they wouldn't find my alt account if I was banned with how I'm posting here?

>

> The rest of your post was address by me awhile ago. I will not address it again b/c you can go back and read it.

>

> Thank you

 

You read it how you want.. I was stating a fact .. all these excuses and moral questionings are what those shady forums are asking their customers to put out here.. the fact you continue to jump on their bandwagon is not me being hostile to you, its just stating a fact. I never said your banned or your one of them.. your just restating what they are saying and in some cases have been advised to say in the hope that ANET will back down.

 

Read it how you will, but trust me if I wanted to be hostile I wouldn't mince words, but as I have no need to be hostile towards you, its just your interpretation of what's in front of you is all.

As for F2P account.. I never said they were f2p accounts posting here.. that too is a well known wfact that they can't.. players can have more than one B2P account and in the case of cheats doing it for RMT.. they will just buy another account and keep trying to make money from cheating.. its cat and mouse after all.

 

Just because some of us don't conform to your ideas or why we don't understand your need to keep writing the same things over and over in this thread (a lot of which are off topic anyway) doesn't mean I or others are attacking you. I know it would all be great if we could all agree on this stuff but hey.. I think cheats should be banned perma and their IP barred, but that's just me. ANET have been pretty nice just giving 6 month bans but we don't all have to agree with my point of view and that's fine by me. Or should I just say it's a personal attack on me if you don't like my PoV?