Account suspension discussion [merged]

[Yasi.9065]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> simple question, a cheat is running a cheating program alongside GW2 and has been doing it on multiple occasions - what is the probability that the game cheater intends to cheat in GW2 as well?

>

 

Actually, these kind of broad generalizations are whats wrong with the world today. Someone has a history of cheating in games? Yeah, he or she will probably have a low**er** threshold to cheat in gw2. BUT THEY ARE STILL INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

 

What Anet posted isnt evidence, it is **CONJECTURE**.

 

And because a certain person likes car anecdotes so much... its like you are a bystander duing a car crash and get convicted just because you stood there and COULD have caused the crash.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > >

> > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > >

> > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> >

> > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> >

> > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

>

> actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = processes specifically design to cheat and your golden.

 

Exactly why I pointed out, not everywhere.

 

Something that often gets overlooked on these forums is that we are a multinational community with widely differing local laws.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > > >

> > > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> > >

> > > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> > >

> > > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

> >

> > actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = games specifically design to cheat and your golden.

>

> But cheat engine isn't just for cheating in games. The police will investigate further e.g ask why you have the knife on you and if you have a good reason e.g on the way home from work they will understand and you can move on

 

no, in britain certain knives are illegal and intent is irrelevant. You run a program called i love bunnies that counts cute bunnies for you alongside GW2 and your fine. If you run a process that is specifically designed to cheat alongside GW2, then there is a high probability you cheat at games.

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

 

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> > > >

> > > > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> > > >

> > > > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

> > >

> > > actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = games specifically design to cheat and your golden.

> >

> > But cheat engine isn't just for cheating in games. The police will investigate further e.g ask why you have the knife on you and if you have a good reason e.g on the way home from work they will understand and you can move on

>

> no, in britain certain knives are illegal and intent is irrelevant. You run a program called i love bunnies that counts cute bunnies for you alongside GW2 and your fine. If you run a process that is specifically designed to cheat alongside GW2, then there is a high probability you cheat at games.

 

Not in my experience with police in the UK. But again cheat engine isn't specifically designed to cheat in games, a lot of people use it with CEMU (Game emulator) to change the FPS lock or target in the games they are emulating. Now if someone was playing with their emulator while waiting for a world boss to spawn or something else they have been banned when they were doing nothing wrong.

 

This is why ANET should've taken more time and invested each account caught with cheat engine individually nothing was stopping them from doing that.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > @"MrFayth.3546" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > > I think Anet handled it fair. If you use cheat tools for one game you will likely also cheat in other games.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you failed an exam today, is it okay to automaticaly fail 2 others you have tomorrow?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If they failed you because you had the materials to cheat on the test, regardless if you used them or not, then yes.

> > > > >

> > > > > The school would actually do an investigation into the person accused of cheating which ANET didn't do.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cheat engine is not an automatic cheat a more comparable example would be like bringing your mobile phone into a maths test. Yes you could potentially open your calculator on your phone but they would require evidence to prove that you did do that and not that you innocently left it turned on in your bag.

> > > >

> > > > Dooh if your caught cheating in the exam you will be removed from it no questions.. the investigation comes after.. just like with this situation. Difference here is ANET would of already done some checking before banning and after on appeal...

> > > > If you bring your phone into the exam that is already breaking the ruleset no matter if you used it or not.. sound familiar.

> > > > You seem to think ANET just ban cos they can.. I beg to differ

> > >

> > > But we know they haven't checked or invested further as they even admitted that in the forum update.

> >

> > where exactly did they say that.. cos when they say they have been monitoring for several weeks, that kind of suggests the complete opposite

> > Stop with the assumptions and read what they actually said.

> >

>

> Right here:

>

> > we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs over a significant number of hours during a multi-week period earlier this year.

>

> The only evidence they have is that someone had cheat engine open they didn't look any further into it

 

Lol that's what your basing your whole conspiracy theory on.. that is really, really stretching it .. you have absolutely no idea what they have actually done internally in order to snag those players in the net.. you think they are going to give you all the info on their detection and decision making processes.. cmon get real.

As for that little snippet you put up there, it even says it was done over a significant number of hours during a multi week period.. they didn't just switch on the pc and say hey lets ban all these today cos we feel like it.... they will have checks and balances in place and once satisfied something is not right they will of drilled down and got to the answer then banned.

The only thing I can see that is in any way questionable is that players alt accounts that were clean got banned in the "guilty by association" which is plausible imo and may on appeal be revoked and that is a fair way to handle it.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > > >

> > > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> > >

> > > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> > >

> > > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

> >

> > actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = processes specifically design to cheat and your golden.

>

> Exactly why I pointed out, not everywhere.

>

> Something that often gets overlooked on these forums is that we are a multinational community with widely differing local laws.

 

yup and multi nationally most people will consider a sword as a weapon (for e.g) and not a utensil for picking your teeth.

most people will agree that the probability is high that a cheater using a cheating program and running a cheating program alongside GW2 on multiple occasions will in fact be a cheater in GW2. Its not rocket science.

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > @"MrFayth.3546" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > > > I think Anet handled it fair. If you use cheat tools for one game you will likely also cheat in other games.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you failed an exam today, is it okay to automaticaly fail 2 others you have tomorrow?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If they failed you because you had the materials to cheat on the test, regardless if you used them or not, then yes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The school would actually do an investigation into the person accused of cheating which ANET didn't do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cheat engine is not an automatic cheat a more comparable example would be like bringing your mobile phone into a maths test. Yes you could potentially open your calculator on your phone but they would require evidence to prove that you did do that and not that you innocently left it turned on in your bag.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dooh if your caught cheating in the exam you will be removed from it no questions.. the investigation comes after.. just like with this situation. Difference here is ANET would of already done some checking before banning and after on appeal...

> > > > > If you bring your phone into the exam that is already breaking the ruleset no matter if you used it or not.. sound familiar.

> > > > > You seem to think ANET just ban cos they can.. I beg to differ

> > > >

> > > > But we know they haven't checked or invested further as they even admitted that in the forum update.

> > >

> > > where exactly did they say that.. cos when they say they have been monitoring for several weeks, that kind of suggests the complete opposite

> > > Stop with the assumptions and read what they actually said.

> > >

> >

> > Right here:

> >

> > > we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs over a significant number of hours during a multi-week period earlier this year.

> >

> > The only evidence they have is that someone had cheat engine open they didn't look any further into it

>

> Lol that's what your basing your whole conspiracy theory on.. that is really, really stretching it .. you have absolutely no idea what they have actually done internally in order to snag those players in the net.. you think they are going to give you all the info on their detection and decision making processes.. cmon get real.

> As for that little snippet you put up there, it even says it was done over a significant number of hours during a multi week period.. they didn't just switch on the pc and say hey lets ban all these today cos we feel like it.... they will have checks and balances in place and once satisfied something is not right they will of drilled down and got to the answer then banned.

> The only thing I can see that is in any way questionable is that players alt accounts that were clean got banned in the "guilty by association" which is plausible imo and may on appeal be revoked and that is a fair way to handle it.

 

A fair way to handle it would be to investigate the players first then ban them, not the other way around and tell them they cannot appeal it until you are caught out by someone on reddit.

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > Being banned for having certain programs on your computer and not cheating on the game is wrong.

> > >

> > > The way Anet did this is not by grabbing the processes that were linked to Guildwars but ALL your processes.

> > >

> > > HUGE breach of privacy and security. It'd be different if they just monitored what was linked to GW2 instead of grabbing everything and storing it on their servers. I have a major problem with that

> >

> > Really? A huge breach of security? Why is that? Explain why it's a huge breach of security. I can literally copy paste a list of every active process I have running all over the internet. What security risk will I incur? Do tell!

>

> It's not like Spyware is ever used to backdoor your computer's security or anything.....

 

Are you absolutely KIDDING ME? Spyware? So the GW2 client is now Spyware. The Windows reporting API is now Spyware?

 

ANET is installing Spyware, and they plan to create a backdoor into users' computers? For what? Are they going to use this glorious botnet to DDoS Blizzard?

 

Also, do you use Steam? I certainly hope not! Steam is 1000000000x worse and more aggressive. Do you play Overwatch? Warden makes this look positively benign! Hope you don't use Origin, because it's the absolute worst of the bunch! Even when it's not running, it monitors and uploads data via PunkBuster, and it is notoriously difficult to remove PunkBuster FULLY from a system for a layman.

 

Nah... sorry. I don't buy one bit of all this outrage "Oh my privacy!" "Oh my data!" "ANET has betrayed my trust!" "BOOO HOOOO!"

 

You signed the UA/ToS. If you're in Germany, here's how this will work. If you sue ANET under German law and invalidate their ToS/UA, that's perfectly fine. ANET will refund you your money. They will then restrict you from play, permanently. You will be disallowed from creating future accounts with them, and any account found in violation (aka yours) will be IMMEDIATELY banned and deleted without recourse. So if that's what you want, because "Boo hoo, my precious list of active processes was stolen by evil old ANET"... GO. FOR. IT.

 

Also, if all of you complaining about the privacy of this could post saying "I don't have a Steam account, an Origin account or play any Blizzard games nor any games with Denuvo, etc either" and then go ahead and link your posts on the Steam forums, Blizzard forums, EA forums, etc showcasing your crusades against their horrifically intrusive data gathering used to try and keep cheaters to a minimum, that would be GREAT. Thanks in advance!

 

 

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > @"Cynn.1659" said:

> > > It's clearly the same

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > So what if you have the process "3dsexvilla.exe" running for 5 minutes three times a day while farming berries with the other hand while Anet monitored your windows processes for weeks?

> >

> > You made a point there, but not the one you think you made.

>

> So you think Anet manually looks at the stuff you had running? They make a list of hashes of illegial applications and run a script to compare it with the gathered data. I doubt they care if you celebrated your fetishes on a 2nd monitor or anything. Only if you appeal and they are willing to have a manual inspection a human will even see it lol

 

How does that affect what I wrote in response to Cynn? Do you think that We-Vibe company he mentioned manually looks at any of the data they collected? ~~If~~ when the data is leaked, it's out there for anyone to look at, and anyone who has access to the database right now can search for anything he wants. It's not only about crap like my example, the data contains information about the kind of antivirus you are running (or not running), a list of software that might have vulnerabilities, or even give you a glimpse of how easy a target the person is, maybe there are several casino toolbars or other malware running.

 

And the data is connected to specific accounts that contain personal data like IP addresses.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > simple question, a cheat is running a cheating program alongside GW2 and has been doing it on multiple occasions - what is the probability that the game cheater intends to cheat in GW2 as well?

> >

>

> Actually, these kind of broad generalizations are whats wrong with the world today. Someone has a history of cheating in games? Yeah, he or she will probably have a low**er** threshold to cheat in gw2. BUT THEY ARE STILL INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

>

> What Anet posted isnt evidence, it is **CONJECTURE**.

>

> And because a certain person likes car anecdotes so much... its like you are a bystander duing a car crash and get convicted just because you stood there and COULD have caused the crash.

 

SO, you are back to the choice again, more intrusive data gathering or enough that you make a decision with a high probability of accuracy with a recovery mechanism to corrrect errors after - whats your poison?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Yasi.9065" said:

> Someone has a history of cheating in games? Yeah, he or she will probably have a low**er** threshold to cheat in gw2. BUT THEY ARE STILL INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

>

> What Anet posted isnt evidence, it is **CONJECTURE**.

 

ANet doesn't need to be able to prove in a court of law that anyone cheated. They simply have to believe that it was likely that the person might have done so. This isn't a matter of looking for thieves in public; it's about finding people, in a private club, with tools used for thieving. The Club's owner can suspend membership for that, without needing proof.

 

Whether they should or not... well that's a different question.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> > > >

> > > > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> > > >

> > > > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

> > >

> > > actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = processes specifically design to cheat and your golden.

> >

> > Exactly why I pointed out, not everywhere.

> >

> > Something that often gets overlooked on these forums is that we are a multinational community with widely differing local laws.

>

> yup and multi nationally most people will consider a sword as a weapon (for e.g) and not a utensil for picking your teeth.

> most people will agree that the probability is high that a cheater using a cheating program and running a cheating program alongside GW2 on multiple occasions will in fact be a cheater in GW2. Its not rocket science.

 

Sure, feel free to make assumptions and "convict" based on circumstantial evidence. I firmly believe that the vast majority banned got what they deserved, and that some of the false positives will be fixed.

 

Someone said that it is illegal to have a knife in your pocket, I reminded them that this is not always the case. You then, essentially, parroted my own statement back at me.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > No we did not agree to have spyware installed onto our computers

> That spyware is called Windows Operating System. (ANet used its API to expose which software is running, as many other companies do, including MS of course, as well as other gaming systems).

>

> > putting our finances at risk without our knowledge.

> That doesn't appear to be remotely the case.

>

> What _might_ have been exposed is what software we had active while GW2 was running.

>

> Should ANet have done this? How private should that data be? Did ANet take appropriate steps to protect their data collection? Those are separate questions.

>

> If we're going to carry pitchforks and torches, let's try to make sure we're marching towards Frankenstein's laboratory, not towards the Frank's Labrador Retriever Rescue Farm.

 

They installed spyware onto our computers on March 6th and then removed it on March 27th. It collected EVERYTHING and sent it back to Anet.

 

Are you going to tell me that they 100% secured that shit? This company who time and time again proves their incompetence?

 

You're crazy if you believe that!!!

 

That stuff is linked to my account, my payment history, my address, etc, etc, etc.

 

Imagine signing a contract that allows employer to utilize your skills in any way they want. After 6 years you come into work today and find out that you are going to be a prostitute for the day.

 

Yeah thought so

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> > > > >

> > > > > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

> > > >

> > > > actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = processes specifically design to cheat and your golden.

> > >

> > > Exactly why I pointed out, not everywhere.

> > >

> > > Something that often gets overlooked on these forums is that we are a multinational community with widely differing local laws.

> >

> > yup and multi nationally most people will consider a sword as a weapon (for e.g) and not a utensil for picking your teeth.

> > most people will agree that the probability is high that a cheater using a cheating program and running a cheating program alongside GW2 on multiple occasions will in fact be a cheater in GW2. Its not rocket science.

>

> Sure, feel free to make assumptions and "convict" based on circumstantial evidence. I firmly believe that the vast majority banned got what they deserved, and that some of the false positives will be fixed.

>

> Someone said that it is illegal to have a knife in your pocket, I reminded them that this is not always the case. You then, essentially, parroted my own statement back at me.

 

its called banned knives/ the law.

 

I will say it again, what do you people want, a more intrusive data gathering or enough that you make a decision with a high probability of accuracy with a recovery mechanism to corrrect errors after, what do you want? its easy to bluster without a meaningful solution.

 

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > Being banned for having certain programs on your computer and not cheating on the game is wrong.

> > > >

> > > > The way Anet did this is not by grabbing the processes that were linked to Guildwars but ALL your processes.

> > > >

> > > > HUGE breach of privacy and security. It'd be different if they just monitored what was linked to GW2 instead of grabbing everything and storing it on their servers. I have a major problem with that

> > >

> > > Really? A huge breach of security? Why is that? Explain why it's a huge breach of security. I can literally copy paste a list of every active process I have running all over the internet. What security risk will I incur? Do tell!

> >

> > It's not like Spyware is ever used to backdoor your computer's security or anything.....

>

> Are you absolutely KIDDING ME? Spyware? So the GW2 client is now Spyware. The Windows reporting API is now Spyware?

>

> ANET is installing Spyware, and they plan to create a backdoor into users' computers? For what? Are they going to use this glorious botnet to DDoS Blizzard?

>

> Also, do you use Steam? I certainly hope not! Steam is 1000000000x worse and more aggressive. Do you play Overwatch? Warden makes this look positively benign! Hope you don't use Origin, because it's the absolute worst of the bunch! Even when it's not running, it monitors and uploads data via PunkBuster, and it is notoriously difficult to remove PunkBuster FULLY from a system for a layman.

>

> Nah... sorry. I don't buy one bit of all this outrage "Oh my privacy!" "Oh my data!" "ANET has betrayed my trust!" "BOOO HOOOO!"

>

> You signed the UA/ToS. If you're in Germany, here's how this will work. If you sue ANET under German law and invalidate their ToS/UA, that's perfectly fine. ANET will refund you your money. They will then restrict you from play, permanently. You will be disallowed from creating future accounts with them, and any account found in violation (aka yours) will be IMMEDIATELY banned and deleted without recourse. So if that's what you want, because "Boo hoo, my precious list of active processes was stolen by evil old ANET"... GO. FOR. IT.

>

> Also, if all of you complaining about the privacy of this could post saying "I don't have a Steam account, an Origin account or play any Blizzard games nor any games with Denuvo, etc either" and then go ahead and link your posts on the Steam forums, Blizzard forums, EA forums, etc showcasing your crusades against their horrifically intrusive data gathering used to try and keep cheaters to a minimum, that would be GREAT. Thanks in advance!

>

>

 

Just because other companies do it or do worse, doesn't make what ANET did okay

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > Being banned for having certain programs on your computer and not cheating on the game is wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > The way Anet did this is not by grabbing the processes that were linked to Guildwars but ALL your processes.

> > > > >

> > > > > HUGE breach of privacy and security. It'd be different if they just monitored what was linked to GW2 instead of grabbing everything and storing it on their servers. I have a major problem with that

> > > >

> > > > Really? A huge breach of security? Why is that? Explain why it's a huge breach of security. I can literally copy paste a list of every active process I have running all over the internet. What security risk will I incur? Do tell!

> > >

> > > It's not like Spyware is ever used to backdoor your computer's security or anything.....

> >

> > Are you absolutely KIDDING ME? Spyware? So the GW2 client is now Spyware. The Windows reporting API is now Spyware?

> >

> > ANET is installing Spyware, and they plan to create a backdoor into users' computers? For what? Are they going to use this glorious botnet to DDoS Blizzard?

> >

> > Also, do you use Steam? I certainly hope not! Steam is 1000000000x worse and more aggressive. Do you play Overwatch? Warden makes this look positively benign! Hope you don't use Origin, because it's the absolute worst of the bunch! Even when it's not running, it monitors and uploads data via PunkBuster, and it is notoriously difficult to remove PunkBuster FULLY from a system for a layman.

> >

> > Nah... sorry. I don't buy one bit of all this outrage "Oh my privacy!" "Oh my data!" "ANET has betrayed my trust!" "BOOO HOOOO!"

> >

> > You signed the UA/ToS. If you're in Germany, here's how this will work. If you sue ANET under German law and invalidate their ToS/UA, that's perfectly fine. ANET will refund you your money. They will then restrict you from play, permanently. You will be disallowed from creating future accounts with them, and any account found in violation (aka yours) will be IMMEDIATELY banned and deleted without recourse. So if that's what you want, because "Boo hoo, my precious list of active processes was stolen by evil old ANET"... GO. FOR. IT.

> >

> > Also, if all of you complaining about the privacy of this could post saying "I don't have a Steam account, an Origin account or play any Blizzard games nor any games with Denuvo, etc either" and then go ahead and link your posts on the Steam forums, Blizzard forums, EA forums, etc showcasing your crusades against their horrifically intrusive data gathering used to try and keep cheaters to a minimum, that would be GREAT. Thanks in advance!

> >

> >

>

> Just because other companies do it or do worse, doesn't make what ANET did okay

 

I don't think that fella realizes that they actually put spyware into the client then removed it do you?

[vesica tempestas.1563]

more obtrusive data gathering than Anet does now and more accuracy

 

or

 

less obtrusive data gathering and less accuracy

 

or what they are doing now.

 

WHAT DO YOU WANT?

[Nezekan.2671]

We should never drop this in my opinion. I certainly won't. I was NOT running any of the listed programs when I was playing GW2, I only had cheat engine installed, and that's it. In fact I haven't run it in quite a while. I need proof that one of these apps was running in the same time I was running the game, then I will stop. My account is a month old, so it should be easy enough.

 

I know there has to be few others who have been banned like I have, for merely having the program. I already know someone, so there is most likely more. And the invasion of privacy on top of that is even more horrendous. Its not just about getting the information, its about what they do with it. Blizzard or steam have never banned anyone wrongfully.

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > Being banned for having certain programs on your computer and not cheating on the game is wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > The way Anet did this is not by grabbing the processes that were linked to Guildwars but ALL your processes.

> > > > >

> > > > > HUGE breach of privacy and security. It'd be different if they just monitored what was linked to GW2 instead of grabbing everything and storing it on their servers. I have a major problem with that

> > > >

> > > > Really? A huge breach of security? Why is that? Explain why it's a huge breach of security. I can literally copy paste a list of every active process I have running all over the internet. What security risk will I incur? Do tell!

> > >

> > > It's not like Spyware is ever used to backdoor your computer's security or anything.....

> >

> > Are you absolutely KIDDING ME? Spyware? So the GW2 client is now Spyware. The Windows reporting API is now Spyware?

> >

> > ANET is installing Spyware, and they plan to create a backdoor into users' computers? For what? Are they going to use this glorious botnet to DDoS Blizzard?

> >

> > Also, do you use Steam? I certainly hope not! Steam is 1000000000x worse and more aggressive. Do you play Overwatch? Warden makes this look positively benign! Hope you don't use Origin, because it's the absolute worst of the bunch! Even when it's not running, it monitors and uploads data via PunkBuster, and it is notoriously difficult to remove PunkBuster FULLY from a system for a layman.

> >

> > Nah... sorry. I don't buy one bit of all this outrage "Oh my privacy!" "Oh my data!" "ANET has betrayed my trust!" "BOOO HOOOO!"

> >

> > You signed the UA/ToS. If you're in Germany, here's how this will work. If you sue ANET under German law and invalidate their ToS/UA, that's perfectly fine. ANET will refund you your money. They will then restrict you from play, permanently. You will be disallowed from creating future accounts with them, and any account found in violation (aka yours) will be IMMEDIATELY banned and deleted without recourse. So if that's what you want, because "Boo hoo, my precious list of active processes was stolen by evil old ANET"... GO. FOR. IT.

> >

> > Also, if all of you complaining about the privacy of this could post saying "I don't have a Steam account, an Origin account or play any Blizzard games nor any games with Denuvo, etc either" and then go ahead and link your posts on the Steam forums, Blizzard forums, EA forums, etc showcasing your crusades against their horrifically intrusive data gathering used to try and keep cheaters to a minimum, that would be GREAT. Thanks in advance!

> >

> >

>

> Just because other companies do it or do worse, doesn't make what ANET did okay

 

Oh right, I forgot, we must hold ANET to impossible standards.

 

"Get rid of the cheaters. Don't intrude on my PC whatsoever. Get rid of the cheaters though!"

 

You have zero clue about how "getting rid of the cheaters" works then.... This isn't rocket science. PICK. YOUR. POISON.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Nezekan.2671" said:

> We should never drop this in my opinion. I certainly won't. I was NOT running any of the listed programs when I was playing GW2, I only had cheat engine installed, and that's it. In fact I haven't run it in quite a while. I need proof that one of these apps was running in the same time I was running the game, then I will stop. My account is a month old, so it should be easy enough.

 

mmmhmm, so their process for scanning running processes accidentally turned into a process that scans your directories for files did it? how does that work!

[Nezekan.2671]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Nezekan.2671" said:

> > We should never drop this in my opinion. I certainly won't. I was NOT running any of the listed programs when I was playing GW2, I only had cheat engine installed, and that's it. In fact I haven't run it in quite a while. I need proof that one of these apps was running in the same time I was running the game, then I will stop. My account is a month old, so it should be easy enough.

>

> mmmhmm, so their process for scanning running processes accidentally turned into a process that scans your directories for files did it? how does that work!

 

You never had anything of substance to say anyway, so continue your white knighting.

 

And I don't know. I only know that I didn't run it in the month that I was playing GW2. Its that simple.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Solidius.5146" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I generally have no sympathy for people who cheat in any game, i just don't see the need to risk your account on any game that you love to maybe make things slightly easier for yourself but anger other players in the process and put your friends accounts in danger if they play with you on a regular basis and get caught up in your ban. I do not count dps meters as cheating or mods that change your UI and as you can see, neither do Anet. As a company they do what they need to do to make sure their game is fair for everyone and if that means monitoring the programs running on my system then I don't mind, it's not like they are hunting for any information worth keeping that could be damaging to my identity or online safety. If you use cheat programs then you deserve to get banned, even if you weren't using them in this particular game at this point in time, you have them installed and Anet has no way of knowing if you ever plan to use them in the future, so out you go. Hopefully in 6 months you will either have learned your lesson and uninstalled said programs or moved on to other games which is no big loss to the rest of us.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Do you have knives in your kitchen?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It was never about owning the knife! it was about having the knife with you whilst playing. Its not against the law to have one in the home but If you leave your home with a knife and get searched whether it was used or not it's still intent and an offence.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > uhm... no. You can't punish me for having knife in my pocket until I actually use it commiting a crime. Just like cheatengine. Well they know some people used it. But they didn't check if it was used to modify GW2.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Actually you can be punished for having a knife in your pocket, it's called an arrest on possession of weapons. It is illegal to carry a weapon without a good reason and it's illegal to carry a banned weapon so your metaphor isn't really working for you there ;)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is not illegal to carry a knife in your pocket everywhere. And not all knives are illegal even in places which restrict some blades (such as by length).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its not even illegal, everywhere, to have a gun in your pocket (so long as you have a concealed carry license).

> > > > >

> > > > > actually that depends on the type of knife, e.g in britain it is in fact illegal to carry certain types of knives. so think of illegal types of knives = processes specifically design to cheat and your golden.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly why I pointed out, not everywhere.

> > > >

> > > > Something that often gets overlooked on these forums is that we are a multinational community with widely differing local laws.

> > >

> > > yup and multi nationally most people will consider a sword as a weapon (for e.g) and not a utensil for picking your teeth.

> > > most people will agree that the probability is high that a cheater using a cheating program and running a cheating program alongside GW2 on multiple occasions will in fact be a cheater in GW2. Its not rocket science.

> >

> > Sure, feel free to make assumptions and "convict" based on circumstantial evidence. I firmly believe that the vast majority banned got what they deserved, and that some of the false positives will be fixed.

> >

> > Someone said that it is illegal to have a knife in your pocket, I reminded them that this is not always the case. You then, essentially, parroted my own statement back at me.

>

> its called banned knives/ the law.

>

> I will say it again, what do you people want, a more intrusive data gathering or enough that you make a decision with a high probability of accuracy with a recovery mechanism to corrrect errors after, what do you want? its easy to bluster without a meaningful solution.

>

 

"You people"

 

Do you mean people who know that knives are not illegal everywhere?

 

Perhaps people who believe that those banned most likely deserved it?

 

Perhaps people who understand that the information used to support the ban represents circumstantial evidence?

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > I asked you - did you check if I have keys? Did anet check if cheat engine is hooked into GW2?

> > >

> > > You are avoiding answering this.

> >

> > No, I answered you earlier.

> >

> > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > You are sitting drunk at McDonald's and police arrests you because you have a car so it's possible for you to drive it drunk today.

> > > Actually if you're sitting in a car drunk even if you're not driving and a police officer catches you, 9 times out of 10 you're going down for a DUI. You better have a verifiable alibi that can say "Yes, it was I who took them to McDonalds" and you kitten sure better not have the keys or you're SOL regardless.

> > >

> > > Don't go to McDonalds while you're drunk. Or else you better stick to your sober friend like glue and avoid anything that even remotely implicates you as a potential driver of a motor vehicle. Because you're still likely to catch crap regardless.

> > >

> > > And God help you if you're a stupid/crazy kind of drunk. You better just stay home or not drink.

> >

> > You would know if you had the keys and what it means if the police catch you with keys while your drunk in a motor vehicle. You're just being obtuse with the whole if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck thing. You want argue it's a fish? I'm not interested.

> >

> > I have no vested interest in your semantics debate nor am I an enforcer of the law/ban that you should take it up with me. You're barking up the wrong tree mate.

>

> I can be with someone else. Did police check if that person has the keys? Everything that needs to be done is investigating, they don't just approach me drunk and putting me in jail. They want keys documents etc and I have the chance to explain myself. What did Anet to investigate? They assumed I'm alone and with keys.

 

No your assuming that is what they have done.. you keep changing your analogies that you dream up each time someone counters you.. which kinda shows you do not really know what it is your trying to argue and counter.

 

What's that saying me ole ma used to say.. never ASSUME cos it can make an *** of U and ME.

 

Your assuming anet just put their fingers in the wind and said ban everyone blowing this way on the wind today and because they stated no appeals they must be wrong and cheaters must be reinstated cos of lack of any evidence.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Nezekan.2671" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Nezekan.2671" said:

> > > We should never drop this in my opinion. I certainly won't. I was NOT running any of the listed programs when I was playing GW2, I only had cheat engine installed, and that's it. In fact I haven't run it in quite a while. I need proof that one of these apps was running in the same time I was running the game, then I will stop. My account is a month old, so it should be easy enough.

> >

> > mmmhmm, so their process for scanning running processes accidentally turned into a process that scans your directories for files did it? how does that work!

>

> You never had anything of substance to say anyway, so continue your white knighting.

>

> And I don't know. I only know that I didn't run it in the month that I was playing GW2. Its that simple.

 

well i can tell you its impossible, unless code metamorphosis at runtime ofc, or they are lying ofc.

[Ashamir.9574]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> No. They didn't "break the law". What law are you thinking they broke?

 

Depends on the country, ne? I can't tell you if it they broke laws in your country. Basically in some countries it is illegal to have your software access user data that is outside of it without explicit permission of the user. This is, again easily put, why facebook has different rules for the EU and the rest of world. EU law forbids to collect and share data like it is for example done in the US.

Since it'll go into effect EU-wide next month I also point you to the [GDPR](https://www.eugdpr.org/eugdpr.org.html "GDPR").