Maikimaik.1974 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Susy.7529" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Jason.5983" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > Well, to all the players that are taking a stand against this, and plan to leave the game, for whatever reasons. I hope you and the cheaters you are standing with, find a nice game that you can all play together, without anyone imposing any rules or regulations on you and how you want to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > Don't all games have game rules? > > > > > > > > You would think.. but after reading this topic, I have seen that some players get upset when those rules get enforced, so, to all of them, both the cheaters and the enables, I hope they find a wonderful game to play together.. that is not this one. > > > > > > "Enablers". It's troubling that you would insinuate that. By your own logic, at the other end of the spectrum, you could be called an enabler of unethical privacy intrusions. Sound fair? No? I didn't think so. > > > > You signed a contract saying you allow them to do this... explain to me how it's unethical? > > If you sign a contract you do that for the overall beneficts (aka playing the game you like in this case). It doesn't always mean that you agree on every single points of that contract, it just means you believe that beneficts are greater than disadvantages (aka the points you consider unfair/unethical). Does that matter? You legally allowed them to investigate your computer, no matter if you like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susy.7529 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Maikimaik.1974" said: > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Jason.5983" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > Well, to all the players that are taking a stand against this, and plan to leave the game, for whatever reasons. I hope you and the cheaters you are standing with, find a nice game that you can all play together, without anyone imposing any rules or regulations on you and how you want to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't all games have game rules? > > > > > > > > > > You would think.. but after reading this topic, I have seen that some players get upset when those rules get enforced, so, to all of them, both the cheaters and the enables, I hope they find a wonderful game to play together.. that is not this one. > > > > > > > > "Enablers". It's troubling that you would insinuate that. By your own logic, at the other end of the spectrum, you could be called an enabler of unethical privacy intrusions. Sound fair? No? I didn't think so. > > > > > > You signed a contract saying you allow them to do this... explain to me how it's unethical? > > > > If you sign a contract you do that for the overall beneficts (aka playing the game you like in this case). It doesn't always mean that you agree on every single points of that contract, it just means you believe that beneficts are greater than disadvantages (aka the points you consider unfair/unethical). > > Does that matter? You legally allowed them to investigate your computer, no matter if you like it or not. I was just explaining how that fact could be considered unethical by some people even if they signed the contract, I'm not saying that it can be used as an excuse to blame anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > Indeed, it is _unlikely_ to be used for serious debugging (esp. considering it crashes more frequently than other debuggers), but leaving tools running in the background for long periods of time when not in use is certainly possible. Certainly possible yes. But if I were a programmer using this tool and leaving it open then later got banned for it? I would say "yep, my bad. See you in six months." Understanding that it is a program that edits memory directly and what that can mean I would certainly just say "lesson learned". Because I would see the threat. But that's not what is happening here. What happened was the person in question leveraged the current privacy meme over FB and used a "spyware" label to give ammo to other hack tool users. Throwing a ton of shade on a company who was committing the sin of trying to create a level and fair playing field for it's players. And now the cheaters are running with this in hopes of having their suspensions reversed, because it sounds like the best chance of success. That's why they are saying "Anet has no proof I was using it in GW2" and using "privacy" arguments. Short version: Anyone using a memory editor like CE, and understanding how it operates wouldn't be surprised at getting banned for having it open in an online game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > Short version: Anyone using a memory editor like CE, and understanding how it operates wouldn't be surprised at getting banned for having it open in an online game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > Ok... step up..the _wrongly accused_ and make your plea.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So .. Cheat-Engine, used to cheat at GW2, can also be used to modify Single Player Games, but has _other uses_ well.. ok, explain to me what _Other_ Legitimate Use anyone would have to have this programming running in the background on their personal computer, for _significant amount of hours across a multi-week time period_ , while playing GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give you all a chance to change my mind that you're not filthy cheaters. > > > > > > I've already explained other uses _multiple times_, and why it could be left running in the background (in the middle of a project debugging another program, much lower friction to just leave it running in the background than to close everything and spend 5-10 minutes getting back to where you left off). Fine, choose to be ignorant, just kill me already. > > > > > > > > > > > > Though I guess I don't fall into the _wrongly accused_ category (considering I haven't been banned), so maybe that's why what I'm saying falls on deaf ears. > > > > > > > > > > So, tell me, why would someone be doing project debugging on their _home computer_ for _substantial amounts of hours across a multi-week time frame_ while playing GW2 at the same time? > > > > > > > > > > I mean, while if it was their work computer, (Which is a great way to get fired just FYI) at the very least, this would be a programmer, who, lets be real, knows what this program is commonly used for, so they can't feign ignorance of what they are using, and secondly, a programmer would read the EULA, as they often work by them. > > > > > > > > > > You know, I'd believe you, if it was a one time thing, but this was for a _substantial amount of hours across a multi-week time frame_. > > > > > > > > > > So, nahh.. not going to buy that _project debugging_ line. > > > > > > > > > > Care to try again,.. maybe this time with something remotely believable? > > > > > > > > > > also, if you haven't been vacationed.. then you are an enabler, which to be honest, is worse then a cheater. > > > > > > > > All I can say is.. wow... seriously, I'm rather hurt that you're calling me worse than a cheater and a liar, when I've explained multiple times why a program like CE might be open for days at a time -- ever heard of side/personal projects? Or freelancers whose home computer is also their work computer? I have a program open in IDA right now that I've been working on reverse engineering for **years** just for the fun of it and the learning experience (personal projects helped with getting my current job), and IDA has been open for the the past _two weeks_. The same thing happens sometimes with having a program open in a debugger -- when I get home from work I want to _get stuff done_ and be able to pick up where I left off in the middle of a function instead of spending time getting back to where I was the other day. It is up to you if you want to buy it or not, but it is the truth -- I know that, and if you don't want to believe it, well, nothing I can say will make you.. just kill me and don't bother replying, because I doubt you've worked on a reverse engineering project for fun, and probably never will -- which is why you will continue to find it unbelievable. > > > > > > First, I never called you a liar, and I am insulted that you have said that lie about me. > > > > > > Second: Yes, enablers are far worse then cheaters, as at least a cheater knows and understands what they are doing is wrong, that they are breaking the rules by cheating, and will get punished if caught, where an enabler tries to justify the actions of the cheater as not being wrong. > > > > > > Finally: If you want to enable cheaters and hack programs in the games you play, I can will at least respect that is what you want, and wish you good luck and good fortune in finding a game where you can play freely with them, but, I don't want it to be this game. > > > > > > Good day. > > > > > > You said that he was worse than a cheater. > > > > You said that you did not believe his claims. You further said that his claims were not remotely believable. > > > > The combination of these things does read as calling him worse than a cheater and a liar. > > Their claim is beyond ridiculous, in fact it is so audacious, I am insulted that they expect me to believe it. I mean, really, CheatEngine is not even considered a top level debugging program among the **free** debugging programs out there, and they expect someone to believe that a professional freelance programmer is going to use this program to do actual work.. really... how stupid do they think people are, and anyone that would believe that.. simply validates their contempt. I did not say that his claim was not ridiculous. I just reminded you that you shoukd not feel insulted that he claims that you stated that he was worse than a cheater and a liar, because you did just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason.5983 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Jason.5983" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > Well, to all the players that are taking a stand against this, and plan to leave the game, for whatever reasons. I hope you and the cheaters you are standing with, find a nice game that you can all play together, without anyone imposing any rules or regulations on you and how you want to play the game. > > > > > > > > Don't all games have game rules? > > > > > > You would think.. but after reading this topic, I have seen that some players get upset when those rules get enforced, so, to all of them, both the cheaters and the enables, I hope they find a wonderful game to play together.. that is not this one. > > > > "Enablers". It's troubling that you would insinuate that. By your own logic, at the other end of the spectrum, you could be called an enabler of unethical privacy intrusions. Sound fair? No? I didn't think so. > > You signed a contract saying you allow them to do this... explain to me how it's unethical? I shouldn't have to explain how/why it is unethical. There are 48 pages of this discussion - I suggest you peruse more of its contents to find the answer to your own question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDchiaScrub.3241 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 P.S. I have not been suspended or banned. It seems to me, spyware comparison or not, this was a decision based on correlation. Yes, people who modify all sorts of games can be correlated to using memory editing programs (cheat engine) listed in the general topic on the forums. The problem...is causation. **Was there proof of actual usage before the suspensions?** I don't envy a game companies' war on hacks and what not. This manner of doing things sets a bad precedent regardless of whatever means/ends justifications. **Was the less than 2,000 accounts worth it in the end?** Idk. I "don't have all the data." D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CETheLucid.3964 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Tinnel.4369" said: > Not going to read all of this, but have a question about a general trend I see. > > Is there evidence ANet banned for simply having the software and not interacting it with gw2 beyond the hearsay of the banned? > > It keeps getting said that this is what they did when their statement specified tampering with the game. > > Evidence of the contrary? There is no evidence that Anet banned people for simply having software like CheatEngine on their system. The ban came about for people with CheatEngine running while GW2 was also running. Everyone here making this argument is going to tell you they had CheatEngine running at the same time as GW2 but they certainly didn't have it hooked into GW2 and that's why they shouldn't be banned. I understand multi-tasking or playing some little game on the side while waiting for a meta event, but if you need CheatEngine to do that while also playing GW2... you need to decide what the hell you actually want to do at this point. If you're able to use CheatEngine to a reasonable degree of competence you're already an above average user. You know full well almost any modern online multiplayer game will flag you for using a memory editor. Do you play Overwatch? Want to take a vacation? Open CheatEngine and start up Overwatch for some vacation magic and possibly a permaban flag come the next ban sweep. By comparison Anet gave folks a 6 month time out. Now if you value your account, don't do that. No one should have to tell anyone not to run memory editors with online multiplayer games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said: > P.S. I have not been suspended or banned. > > It seems to me, spyware comparison or not, this was a decision based on correlation. Yes, people who modify all sorts of games can be correlated to using memory editing programs (cheat engine) listed in the general topic on the forums. The problem...is causation. **Was there proof of actual usage before the suspensions?** I don't envy a game companies' war on hacks and what not. This manner of doing things sets a bad precedent regardless of whatever means/ends justifications. **Was the less than 2,000 accounts worth it in the end?** > > Idk. I "don't have all the data." > > D: The ironic part is many of us, including myself, asked for this. And Gaile responded with a list. Those innocent breathed easier. But those not so much responded with, "But did you see me cheating in YOUR game?" Correlation and causation aside, that reads pretty guilty to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The thread derail so much, people keep talking about EULA and TOS, as if anyone of you here are legit lawyers. Banning because of cheat engine nevertheless is still a double standard. There are many debugging tools out there and cheat engine is simply one of the many. It really puzzling decision to ban people using cheat engine while excluding other debugging tools available which can technically do more than what cheat engine can do. It can even be seen as a immature, not well thought and unprofessional decision. Naturally, since it was decided to only ban cheat engine and not include other debugger, such decision can be easily seen as generalization than a professional one. Afterall, hackers will use more than one debugger tool while hacking a online game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Mokk.2397" said: > > Your playing Guild wars 2. That means you agreed to the Users agreement.Ethical or not, it's a binding agreement under the law.The law is not ethical or moral and under the law when you clicked (basically a electronic signature) you agreed to the Licensing agreement.Saying you didn't read it or you didn't know ,under the law , is not an argument for litigation. Also the licensing agreement is posted on the ANET web site and can be read prior to purchasing. So the EULA can be enforced in any country .It's called " due diligence" and its up to the person to inform themselves about any limitations and agreements prior to purchase. Possession is 9/10 of the law .You have possession of these programs running at the same time GW2 was running then it's very good chance that you use them to gain advantage in the game, ergo you were cheating.That is how the law will see it . So quit whining about it. > > At the end of the day, it's a court that decides which points of such an agreement are binding and how they are interpreted in regards to real law. Funny example from just today: The European Court of Justice has decided that the churches in Germany are not allowed to discriminate applicants that are not members of that church for all positions in general. Since the beginning of time you could only get a position in their organisation if you were a member of the church. The job offer in the case clearly stated that you must be a member of that church to apply. The women was not a member but applied anyway and got rejected because she was not a member. > > The argument of many here on these forums would be "well, the employer sets the rules, you agreed to follow these rules when you applied, so the employer is in the right to reject your application". Court said nay, despite there being a very long tradition of this kind of discrimination and nobody ever before sued. Most people just accepted this rule and simply didn't apply if they were not a member, and those who got rejected didn't bother to go to court. Until that women did :) > > As long as nobody here bothers to start a years long court battle with Anet, I don't think we'll ever agree to how the point about "monitoring" would be interpreted in regards to real law. Many companies invent EULAs with stuff in it that would be or were already destroyed in court. Yea, most of it is basically because nobody is going to take the time to dispute it. EULAs though, aren't just ironclad in any case. Consider: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/27/woman_microsoft_windows_10_upgrades/ This woman won 10k from Microsoft because Windows 10 installed without permission. Now she allegedly said the software installed without permission through automatic updates, but there's absolutely no way to prove that. A lot of people may just click buttons and not remember it happened. There's also no way to determine if Windows 10 is the sole culprit for the matter either. We don't know how the system was managed beforehand or if it already happened. So it becomes your word vs theirs. Also the EULA for Windows 7 did state you were limited to the value of Windows itself ($200 at most?) and Californioa allows such a thing. Oh, and... This code overrides any corporation's user agreement form. So what we gathered here is that despite Microsoft having all of this to protect themselves, this business owner being negligent and not having backups, while the loss of a single computer could cripple a business ($10 k worth of business!) and may have screwed up themselves, that Microsoft still gets held responsible for shady behavior. This is obviously not relevant to Guild Wars 2 here, but my point is rather to show that, no, EULAs aren't the law by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDchiaScrub.3241 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said: > > P.S. I have not been suspended or banned. > > > > It seems to me, spyware comparison or not, this was a decision based on correlation. Yes, people who modify all sorts of games can be correlated to using memory editing programs (cheat engine) listed in the general topic on the forums. The problem...is causation. **Was there proof of actual usage before the suspensions?** I don't envy a game companies' war on hacks and what not. This manner of doing things sets a bad precedent regardless of whatever means/ends justifications. **Was the less than 2,000 accounts worth it in the end?** > > > > Idk. I "don't have all the data." > > > > D: > > The ironic part is many of us, including myself, asked for this. And Gaile responded with a list. Those innocent breathed easier. But those not so much responded with, "But did you see me cheating in YOUR game?" > > Correlation and causation aside, that reads pretty guilty to me. Don't get me wrong. There were bad actors. To me though, **context matters.** [i am aware that the guilty will skew words, and act in the way you suggested]( "I am aware that the guilty will skew words, and act in the way you suggested"). As a private company ANET can do what they wish to an extent within their environment. When it exceeds beyond the product (e.g. the people that cry spyware) then issues of "privacy" get brought up. Dwayna forbid they add Denuvo. Which is why _I think_ this is all a really bad precedent that was not worth the 1500 accounts (temporary suspension mind you). Even if we assume those accounts adversely impacted other player experiences (which there isn't data for more than likely)...say like in Spvp/WvW where competitive balance is more key. I'd ask, *was it still worth it?* In those game modes yes I am sure this helps, but in PvE where NPCs don't complain...I think the social impact would matters less. You can argue in game economics. Sure. Given the official statement leans more towards correlation of programs running in the background (nice that there is data for how long they were used). I can't say for certain they were actually used, nor do I wish to weigh importance of game modes. Thus, I don't know if those 1500 people impacted the economy. Because, again, we were not given a strong statement of actual use in malicious ways (the causation stuff). Then again, we can go fully off the deep end and assert that game design decisions have lost far more players than 1500. Then make some silly comparison about PR backlash in regards to this account suspension stuff with past, present, or future game design. Alas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rankomonaut.4708 Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 Although ArenaNet had to do something about the real cheaters in the game, they choose poorly. I think they probably got a good amount of tampering suspended, but there are people (like me) that just fell victim to the lazy investigation. There's already bad pr about what happened and how it was done and if AN decided that they want to be this kind of corporation, so be it. Personally I see a grim future if the path is trodden further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Well, in my case, since my account works perfectly fine, the alleged use of data is naturally my main concern. If I have done nothing wrong, I think I have a right to question if my data is being handled securely or responsibly. I don't care if it's done as long as there's a degree of caution But I also know they have never been anything close to infallibility so I'd rather take into consideration towards people who may have been unfairly banned and that "no appeal" thing sounded ridiclous. Because who knows; it could happen to me; and if all I got were a bunch of smug high horses, that would be poor. I treat people as I want to be treated. It is no surprise to me that most of the people that are banned should stay banned, and 6 months seems pretty lenient. Even that Reddit post, I noted the OP had some flimsy justifications for cheating in other games and is probably untrustworthy. But I don't care about any of that or even if they stay banned forever. It's more about what information there is to know. My other pet peeve are just around the so called "You sign away your firstborn if you agreed to the EULA. DIDNT YOU READ?'/ EULAs ARE CARTE BLANCHE/Every other company spies on you anyways" edgelord mentality that permeates discussion. Because it can justify legit spyware tricking users into installing it (or just using other methods of deception). While nothing Arenanet has done here would ever be like that, I've spent a lot of time helping people deal with it. And sure, there's always some smug person that will be like "I'll never get malware; I'm 100% computer safe. I always close programs when I don't need them.". Well, I'm just going to say that kind of arrogance isn't going to do any favors that one day especially given how phishing, hacking, and malware have gotten more sophisticated than the "I am a Nigerian Prince" things that were happening 10 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Susy.7529" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Jason.5983" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > Well, to all the players that are taking a stand against this, and plan to leave the game, for whatever reasons. I hope you and the cheaters you are standing with, find a nice game that you can all play together, without anyone imposing any rules or regulations on you and how you want to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > Don't all games have game rules? > > > > > > > > You would think.. but after reading this topic, I have seen that some players get upset when those rules get enforced, so, to all of them, both the cheaters and the enables, I hope they find a wonderful game to play together.. that is not this one. > > > > > > "Enablers". It's troubling that you would insinuate that. By your own logic, at the other end of the spectrum, you could be called an enabler of unethical privacy intrusions. Sound fair? No? I didn't think so. > > > > You signed a contract saying you allow them to do this... explain to me how it's unethical? > > If you sign a contract you do that for the overall benefits it offers (aka playing the game you like in this case). It doesn't always mean that you agree on every single points of that contract, it just means you believe that benefits are greater than disadvantages (aka the points you consider unfair/unethical). Then you disagreed and shouldn't have created your account. You don't get to pick with parts of a contract you want to apply to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Jason.5983" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Jason.5983" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > Well, to all the players that are taking a stand against this, and plan to leave the game, for whatever reasons. I hope you and the cheaters you are standing with, find a nice game that you can all play together, without anyone imposing any rules or regulations on you and how you want to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > Don't all games have game rules? > > > > > > > > You would think.. but after reading this topic, I have seen that some players get upset when those rules get enforced, so, to all of them, both the cheaters and the enables, I hope they find a wonderful game to play together.. that is not this one. > > > > > > "Enablers". It's troubling that you would insinuate that. By your own logic, at the other end of the spectrum, you could be called an enabler of unethical privacy intrusions. Sound fair? No? I didn't think so. > > > > You signed a contract saying you allow them to do this... explain to me how it's unethical? > > I shouldn't have to explain how/why it is unethical. There are 48 pages of this discussion - I suggest you peruse more of its contents to find the answer to your own question. It's 48 pages of.. "I didn't bother to read what I signed" .. with that said.. being willfully ignorant does not make the other person unethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC.4521 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I dont know if anyone here still checking the reddit or not, but the post have update. Looks like anet did some filtering before they send the data to their server Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikigami.4013 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > The thread derail so much, people keep talking about EULA and TOS, as if anyone of you here are legit lawyers. > > Banning because of cheat engine nevertheless is still a double standard. There are many debugging tools out there and cheat engine is simply one of the many. It really puzzling decision to ban people using cheat engine while excluding other debugging tools available which can technically do more than what cheat engine can do. It can even be seen as a immature, not well thought and unprofessional decision. Naturally, since it was decided to only ban cheat engine and not include other debugger, such decision can be easily seen as generalization than a professional one. Afterall, hackers will use more than one debugger tool while hacking a online game. You know what the basis is for a government agency to determine which items are weapons, which items are weapons you need a licence for, and which items are completely illegal and may not even be owned? **They look primarily at what the item in question was made for.** The much cited "bread knife" is not labled as a weapon because it was not intended to be a weapon but to slice bread. A baseball bat is not classified as being a weapon because it was made to play baseball with and not to kill someone with a swing to his head, just like a brick of stone is not labled to be a weapon because it was made to build a wall and not hit a head. On the other hand, there are knives that are classified as a weapon because they were intended to be a weapon - even if you could slice bread with them. There are sticks of wood connected with a chain (Nunchaku) that are classified as a weapon because in this time and environment their sole reason to exist is being a weapon, although once long ago they were allegedly made as a threshing tool by farmers in japan. It is the **purpose** of an item that decides what the law and subsequently the public opinion decides in regards to being a weapon or being a tool. For that reason, "Cheat engine" is a cheat program, and not a "multipurpose tool" or a "powerful debugger". It is designed to cheat, and the fact that it can be used for other things does not make it less of a cheat program, just like the ability to slice bread with a combat knife like used by john rambo in the movies does not make it a bread knife. As I wrote in an earlier post, you will not be able to buy and drive a tank and then tell the police that you are not using it for war but only drive in it because you feel so safe. A tank is made for war, a car is made for driving. And to come back to what I wrote earlier in **this** thread: Because a car is made for driving and not for running people over with it, it is not classified as a weapon, although you can easily kill any pedestrian with a car if you decide to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 @"Shikigami.4013" Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Shikigami.4013" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > The thread derail so much, people keep talking about EULA and TOS, as if anyone of you here are legit lawyers. > > > > Banning because of cheat engine nevertheless is still a double standard. There are many debugging tools out there and cheat engine is simply one of the many. It really puzzling decision to ban people using cheat engine while excluding other debugging tools available which can technically do more than what cheat engine can do. It can even be seen as a immature, not well thought and unprofessional decision. Naturally, since it was decided to only ban cheat engine and not include other debugger, such decision can be easily seen as generalization than a professional one. Afterall, hackers will use more than one debugger tool while hacking a online game. > > You know what the basis is for a government agency to determine which items are weapons, which items are weapons you need a licence for, and which items are completely illegal and may not even be owned? **They look primarily at what the item in question was made for.** > > The much cited "bread knife" is not labled as a weapon because it was not intended to be a weapon but to slice bread. A baseball bat is not classified as being a weapon because it was made to play baseball with and not to kill someone with a swing to his head, just like a brick of stone is not labled to be a weapon because it was made to build a wall and not hit a head. On the other hand, there are knives that are classified as a weapon because they were intended to be a weapon - even if you could slice bread with them. There are sticks of wood connected with a chain (Nunchaku) that are classified as a weapon because in this time and environment their sole reason to exist is being a weapon, although once long ago they were allegedly made as a threshing tool by farmers in japan. It is the **purpose** of an item that decides what the law and subsequently the public opinion decides in regards to being a weapon or being a tool. > > For that reason, "Cheat engine" is a cheat program, and not a "multipurpose tool" or a "powerful debugger". It is designed to cheat, and the fact that it can be used for other things does not make it less of a cheat program, just like the ability to slice bread with a combat knife like used by john rambo in the movies does not make it a bread knife. > > As I wrote in an earlier post, you will not be able to buy and drive a tank and then tell the police that you are not using it for war but only drive in it because you feel so safe. A tank is made for war, a car is made for driving. And to come back to what I wrote earlier in **this** thread: Because a car is made for driving and not for running people over with it, it is not classified as a weapon, although you can easily kill any pedestrian with a car if you decide to. > > Oh? Using your logic, cheat engine is made for single player game, not multiplayer game thus again base on your logic, how is it applicable to multiple players game? You are simply using the category of weapon and not the item itself. Unfortunately, there are way **more powerful** debugger tools and thus easily the same category yet you conveniently denounce them. How absurd to call things that are technically much powerful more legal. You are double standard too and you are not objectively arguing about things. If you don't understand what are being said, I will phrase it the "weapon" way you are using, to you a gun is illegal but a shotgun is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos.7460 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 thers no discussion needed ...they use 3rd programs and that is against rules .... BAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexodia.5180 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"ffletcher.3468" said: > > > "Monitoring" in my view does not involve data transfers from my computer to their servers. > > > > How do they take action if what was monitored cannot be reported to them....... > > > > I feel like we're back two decade where people are slowly figuring out what the internet is. > > It's funny that it's mostly techies here (and on reddit) who can explain why the tool is spyware and violates your privacy. We know exactly how the Internet and computers work, what processes are and packages and how encrypting works. People who haven't figured out how things work usually have no issue with it. Those who only have a vague understanding of things tend to trust authorites more. > > @your question: They could have done the monitoring and filtering and getting positives locally, and only send the hits to their server. That way, Anet wouldn't have filled a database on their servers with personal information like IP addresses combined with all software you are running. I would have been fine with that. > > > @"Ubi.4136" said: > > > @"Yasi.9065" said: > > > The damage was done when Anet accessed data outside gw2 *and* send parts of that data to their servers. > > > > You do realize that just about every game company does this (actually, I think just about every "company" does now too). > > No, they don't. They do it in a less invasive way and don't send all the data to their servers. Your assumption is uninformed, but the information is even in this thread. Got it in 1. Techies are outraged the ignorant are supportive. I haven't played in years but regularly update in-case I want too. The fact they introduced spyware that could have done any number of things to the system and in the process inadvertently opened larger vulnerabilities into the system is disturbing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Shikigami.4013" said: > As I wrote in an earlier post, you will not be able to buy and drive a tank and then tell the police that you are not using it for war but only drive in it because you feel so safe. A tank is made for war, a car is made for driving. And to come back to what I wrote earlier in **this** thread: Because a car is made for driving and not for running people over with it, it is not classified as a weapon, although you can easily kill any pedestrian with a car if you decide to. > Well actually... at least in the USA... Modifications (to avoid damaging the road) and a special permit may be needed for road legality, and with additional permits it can be fully operational. And to think we’ve been arguing for 48 pages over a game, when there are so many other crazy things in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Don't. Let his arguments fall apart slowly, one by one. If he switched to "how is it used" from "what is it made for". I can highlight that fact and it will show everyone how conveniently he switched from one principle to another, then use his own fallacies arguments against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonstarmac.4603 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Simplest solution...bar use of all 3rd party apps or sticky a post that lists allowed 3rd party apps and state that using those not listed is a grounds for ban. See, very simple. As to those who argue TOS...if you do not want to agree to any Terms of Service for any product or software, simple solution...do not use it. Hint though, a majority of all products and software have a Terms of Server and EULA attached...if you feel this is unfair, again don't whine about it and just do not use that product or software. Again, very simple. As for cheaters after this point...if AreaNet does either option A or B regarding 3rd party apps, add a new notice that includes a perma-ban for those caught using non-approved apps to modify Guild Wars 2. Yes, I know my suggestion sounds overzealous, but believe me it would change how things work in the long run. PS: Please return the public DHUUM Bans like GW1. Thank you, have a nice die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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