artemis.6781 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Could you imagine all the families that play together suddenly getting banned? I'd hate to be ANet if that ever happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > > > > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > > > > > > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > > > > > > > Opening paragraph mate > > > > > > That paragraph supports his position, not yours. > > > > No it literally says in game whereas he said not in game > > It says that the information is being restricted to the company. Everything listed there is the company. Did you skip the part it has relations and gives your info to google and other companies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Address the real issue. > > > Sure thing. > > > > > > The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation. > > > Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law. > > > > > > So stores are able to sell to whomever they want. > > > That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage. > > > > > > But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whats the first thing you see in that video? > > > > I rest my case. > > No one knows what you are talking about ... it's common knowledge GW2 is rated TEEN and doesn't invalidate anything he said ... You believe 13 year olds can legally give consent. If you don't understand what i'm talking about I'm ok with that. Have a great day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Address the real issue. > > > > Sure thing. > > > > > > > > The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation. > > > > Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law. > > > > > > > > So stores are able to sell to whomever they want. > > > > That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage. > > > > > > > > But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whats the first thing you see in that video? > > > > > > I rest my case. > > > > No one knows what you are talking about ... it's common knowledge GW2 is rated TEEN and doesn't invalidate anything he said ... > > You believe 13 year olds can legally give consent. If you don't understand what i'm talking about I'm ok with that. > > Have a great day No, they can't ... Read the UA. It's already covered on how that situation works ... AND another poster already explained it to you. I don't need to understand what you're talking about because clearly, you don't even know or care to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > Opening paragraph mate That opening paragraph is only a preface laying out what is included in the actual agreement following. It also makes no mention of what data is shared with anyone. The only section that brings up sharing personal data outside of Anet/NC is about the websites, sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and promotions. None of it involves data collected from the game servers or client. And it only mentions name, mailing address, and email address for everything but the websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > > > Opening paragraph mate > > That opening paragraph is only a preface laying out what is included in the actual agreement following. It also makes no mention of what data is shared with anyone. The only section that brings up sharing personal data outside of Anet/NC is about the websites, sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and promotions. None of it involves data collected from the game servers or client. And it only mentions name, mailing address, and email address. You do realize we are addressing purposely broad text. It says in game in the opening paragraph. That sets the precedence that you have no privacy in game and in the rest of the document they state they share your info with 3rd parties. The ToS/EULA didn't say they they were going to install spyware, but they did. You all argue that the extremely broad text of that document says we all agreed to it, but when I use that same argument you clam up saying "they didn't mean that" No we've already seen that they in fact DO mean it. You can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Address the real issue. > > > > > Sure thing. > > > > > > > > > > The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation. > > > > > Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law. > > > > > > > > > > So stores are able to sell to whomever they want. > > > > > That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage. > > > > > > > > > > But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whats the first thing you see in that video? > > > > > > > > I rest my case. > > > > > > No one knows what you are talking about ... it's common knowledge GW2 is rated TEEN and doesn't invalidate anything he said ... > > > > You believe 13 year olds can legally give consent. If you don't understand what i'm talking about I'm ok with that. > > > > Have a great day > > No, they can't ... Read the UA. It's already covered on how that situation works ... AND another poster already explained it to you. I don't need to understand what you're talking about because clearly, you don't even know or care to listen. Our debate is done. You lost and are now contradicting what you've posted already. Have a nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > Address the real issue. > > > > > > Sure thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation. > > > > > > Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law. > > > > > > > > > > > > So stores are able to sell to whomever they want. > > > > > > That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whats the first thing you see in that video? > > > > > > > > > > I rest my case. > > > > > > > > No one knows what you are talking about ... it's common knowledge GW2 is rated TEEN and doesn't invalidate anything he said ... > > > > > > You believe 13 year olds can legally give consent. If you don't understand what i'm talking about I'm ok with that. > > > > > > Have a great day > > > > No, they can't ... Read the UA. It's already covered on how that situation works ... AND another poster already explained it to you. I don't need to understand what you're talking about because clearly, you don't even know or care to listen. > > Our debate is done. You lost and are now contradicting what you've posted already. > > Have a nice day There isn't a contradiction here. Anet clearly outlines what happens in these cases in the UA ... you know that document you claim has no relevance where you live? It's YOU that is making it seem like there is some big conspiracy to market the game to underage kids ... when Anet clearly covers how this works in the UA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > > > > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > > > > > Opening paragraph mate > > > > That opening paragraph is only a preface laying out what is included in the actual agreement following. It also makes no mention of what data is shared with anyone. The only section that brings up sharing personal data outside of Anet/NC is about the websites, sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and promotions. None of it involves data collected from the game servers or client. And it only mentions name, mailing address, and email address. > > You do realize we are addressing purposely broad text. It says in game in the opening paragraph. That sets the precedence that you have no privacy in game and in the rest of the document they state they share your info with 3rd parties. > > The ToS/EULA didn't say they they were going to install spyware, but they did. You all argue that the extremely broad text of that document says we all agreed to it, but when I use that same argument you clam up saying "they didn't mean that" > > No we've already seen that they in fact DO mean it. You can't have it both ways. It is literally only the preface for the agreement. The actual terms of the agreement on separated into individual sections below. The only sharing of personal information is for sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and other promotions. Personal info in those instances of shared with express approval and only includes name, mailing address, and email address. Non-personal info is shared for advertising/analytics on their websites. That means cookies, trackers, etc There is one section that states other general, demographic, or aggregated information might be shared with third parties, specifying that no personal information will be shared in those instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > > > > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > > > > > Opening paragraph mate > > > > That opening paragraph is only a preface laying out what is included in the actual agreement following. It also makes no mention of what data is shared with anyone. The only section that brings up sharing personal data outside of Anet/NC is about the websites, sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and promotions. None of it involves data collected from the game servers or client. And it only mentions name, mailing address, and email address. > > You do realize we are addressing purposely broad text. It says in game in the opening paragraph. That sets the precedence that you have no privacy in game and in the rest of the document they state they share your info with 3rd parties. So if there was precedent set for no privacy in the game and share your info with 3rd parties, why does a person that is hyper sensitive to personal privacy like yourself even play this game? That makes no sense. You don't have much to complain about if you agreed to such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Whats the first thing you see in that video? > > I rest my case. A suggested content rating which has no defining factor on who can and can't purchase the game ? It doesn't matter that it's rated T, what matters is the user agreement. If you want to say that it shouldn't be sold that's great, but you're blaming the wrong people. Games don't self regulate in the manner you think that term is used. ESRB applies ratings based on literally mid 90's policy as to what it thinks may be in a game. It doesn't say who can/can't sell to whom nor does it say what the additional terms and services are. Which by the way are listed on any box copy of GW2. It will say in very specific words "Additonal Terms and Services may apply". That means you're ability to buy a product isn't carte blanch to use said product. Something you'd know if you were being reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now? > > > > > > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent. > > > > > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back > > > > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? > > > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!! > > > > > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud. > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks. > > It's real simple. The act of signing a contract is an affirmation that one is legally permitted to enter into the contract. By signing the contract the hypothetical 13 year old is claiming that he is not a minor a d so is engaging in a fraudelent act. Marketing is irrelevant to whether or not a minor is allowed to sign a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back > > > > > > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? > > > > > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!! > > > > > > > > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud. > > > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks. > > > > It's real simple. > > The act of signing a contract is an affirmation that one is legally permitted to enter into the contract. By signing the contract the hypothetical 13 year old is claiming that he is not a minor a d so is engaging in a fraudelent act. > > Marketing is irrelevant to whether or not a minor is allowed to sign a contract. For Anet to be in any legal jeopardy I think you would have to prove that Anet knew the account holder was a minor and that they accepted the agreement without permission/knowledge of a legal guardian. But why would Anet ever actually accept that? By any reasonable thinking they wouldn't, so they'd never be in that situation. Not that they even have any way of knowing it was done without a guardian's permission. Realistically, they could never even find themselves in such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud. > > > > > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks. > > > > > > It's real simple. > > > > The act of signing a contract is an affirmation that one is legally permitted to enter into the contract. By signing the contract the hypothetical 13 year old is claiming that he is not a minor a d so is engaging in a fraudelent act. > > > > Marketing is irrelevant to whether or not a minor is allowed to sign a contract. > > For Anet to be in any legal jeopardy I think you would have to prove that Anet knew the account holder was a minor and that they accepted the agreement without permission/knowledge of a legal guardian. > > But why would Anet ever actually accept that? > By any reasonable thinking they wouldn't, so they'd never be in that situation. Anet is not in jeopardy in a situation such as this. The hypothetical child lied about his age in order to gain access to ANet's servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud. > > > > > > > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks. > > > > > > > > It's real simple. > > > > > > The act of signing a contract is an affirmation that one is legally permitted to enter into the contract. By signing the contract the hypothetical 13 year old is claiming that he is not a minor a d so is engaging in a fraudelent act. > > > > > > Marketing is irrelevant to whether or not a minor is allowed to sign a contract. > > > > For Anet to be in any legal jeopardy I think you would have to prove that Anet knew the account holder was a minor and that they accepted the agreement without permission/knowledge of a legal guardian. > > > > But why would Anet ever actually accept that? > > By any reasonable thinking they wouldn't, so they'd never be in that situation. > > Anet is not in jeopardy in a situation such as this. The hypothetical child lied about his age in order to gain access to ANet's servers. The highly specific and unlikely situation I was talking about requires that Anet knew the child was lying, and still allowed it. Which would be practically impossible for that to ever happen. Just an example to show how absurd of a situation would need to exist for any of this nonsense to ever be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. 1. You don't know if they were wrongfully banned unless ArenaNet showed you their notes. 2. I have see _nothing_ outside of this forum about this banwave. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > 1. You don't know if they were wrongfully banned unless ArenaNet showed you their notes. > 2. I have see _nothing_ outside of this forum about this banwave. :) There were a number of articles on game news/blog sites earlier last week. The biggest I know of are Kotaku and Vice/Motherboard. There are also several large topics on the GW2 subreddit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. > > It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. You keep saying everything is confirmed. Sources, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. > > > > It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. > > You keep saying everything is confirmed. Sources, please? That bit actually does appear to be true. [From Anet's statement last week](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255) >Yesterday we suspended 1,583 accounts for a period of 6 months. 1516 accounts were **suspended because we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs** over a significant number of hours during a multi-week period earlier this year. We targeted programs that allow players to cheat and gain unfair gameplay advantages, **even if those programs have other, more benign uses.** It really looks like that the only information they were considering was the existence of a process while GW2 was running, not whether there was actual cheating in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I suggest this thread to be split in two: - False positive discussions - Conspiracy theories discussions The discussion about UNF was getting interesting earlier... it'd be great to come back to what actually make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > > > > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > > > > > > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > > > > > > > Opening paragraph mate > > > > > > That paragraph supports his position, not yours. > > > > No it literally says in game whereas he said not in game > > It says that the information is being restricted to the company. Everything listed there is the company. No you are flailing looking for a way out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at the whole picture. > > > > > > > > > > I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company. > > > > > > > > **Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you** > > > > > > > > Opening paragraph mate > > > > > > That opening paragraph is only a preface laying out what is included in the actual agreement following. It also makes no mention of what data is shared with anyone. The only section that brings up sharing personal data outside of Anet/NC is about the websites, sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and promotions. None of it involves data collected from the game servers or client. And it only mentions name, mailing address, and email address. > > > > You do realize we are addressing purposely broad text. It says in game in the opening paragraph. That sets the precedence that you have no privacy in game and in the rest of the document they state they share your info with 3rd parties. > > > > The ToS/EULA didn't say they they were going to install spyware, but they did. You all argue that the extremely broad text of that document says we all agreed to it, but when I use that same argument you clam up saying "they didn't mean that" > > > > No we've already seen that they in fact DO mean it. You can't have it both ways. > > It is literally only the preface for the agreement. The actual terms of the agreement on separated into individual sections below. The only sharing of personal information is for sweepstakes, contests, surveys, and other promotions. Personal info in those instances of shared with express approval and only includes name, mailing address, and email address. > > Non-personal info is shared for advertising/analytics on their websites. That means cookies, trackers, etc > > There is one section that states other general, demographic, or aggregated information might be shared with third parties, specifying that no personal information will be shared in those instances. Oh you trust them? They installed spyware on your computer and have stated they share your info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now? > > > > > > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent. > > > > > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back > > > > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? > > > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!! > > > > > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud. > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks. > > It's real simple. You're absolutely right that he's legally allowed to buy the game. You're absolutely wrong if you state that he is legally allowed to create an account by signing the contract without a guardian's permission. ANet's policy is that by agreeing, **the user if under the age of 18 has had its parent or guardian also agree to the terms as a co-signer.** This is the same thing as a dealer financing a car to a 16 year-old. Because the teen cannot legally be bound to a contract being under 18, the parent thus is and must abide to its financing agreement, despite being primarily owned by the teen. Thus, anyone over the age of 18 who sponsored the ToS agreement would be committing fraud by claiming they were unaware but deserved to keep using the product. The only legal action here which could be taken is a demanding of a refund of **only** the original purchase price of the game (underaged user lied at the time of account creation without consent from a guardian when agreeing to the ToS) which would also mean the account be permabanned/deleted altogether. (So at best, going to court for a $60 refund max as the extras are goods not associated to the license of using the game, because ANet cannot be implicitly accused of knowing an underaged person signed the contract at all and thus does not need to agree to refunds at all in this case). Any subsequent billings (gems, etc.) would not be available for refund, either. So while a kid can buy the disk in a store, he cannot legally play the game without parental consent, and thus, if that's the card being played, any agreement he would have made would come with an automatic legal responsibility for ANet to void the contract, which in this case would be permanent account termination/data deletion and a refund of the cost of the license at time of purchase (Digital extras/physical items are not included here as they are not part of the aforementioned contract). TL;DR: To follow this legally, the account would have a 0% chance of being restored and would be legally forced to be permanently banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > Whats the first thing you see in that video? > > > > I rest my case. > > > A suggested content rating which has no defining factor on who can and can't purchase the game ? > > It doesn't matter that it's rated T, what matters is the user agreement. > If you want to say that it shouldn't be sold that's great, but you're blaming the wrong people. Games don't self regulate in the manner you think that term is used. > ESRB applies ratings based on literally mid 90's policy as to what it thinks may be in a game. It doesn't say who can/can't sell to whom nor does it say what the additional terms and services are. Which by the way are listed on any box copy of GW2. It will say in very specific words "Additonal Terms and Services may apply". > > That means you're ability to buy a product isn't carte blanch to use said product. Something you'd know if you were being reasonable. > > ESRB is voluntary. They lead off advertisements with that rating. I listed the top retailers for video games policies on selling M rated games to children. I'll now point you to Apple iTunes 2011 class action lawsuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back > > > > > > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? > > > > > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!! > > > > > > > > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud. > > > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks. > > > > It's real simple. > > The act of signing a contract is an affirmation that one is legally permitted to enter into the contract. By signing the contract the hypothetical 13 year old is claiming that he is not a minor a d so is engaging in a fraudelent act. > > Marketing is irrelevant to whether or not a minor is allowed to sign a contract. Apple iTunes class action lawsuit 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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