Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > And no, I didn't... > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > If you can not legally get a minor to sign a contract then you can not expect an adult to have to agree to a different set of criteria in a contract of their own in the same property because that falls under Ageism which is discrimination. A company can not discriminate against employees already due to Ageism so one might assume they couldn't legally do that to their customers either. > > > > **Section 9**.a) By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are (1... 2...) 3) a minor age 13-17 **who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9© below**. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE. > > > > The 'contract', UA, is *the same* for everyone. > > Whether that minor sought permission or not, since the 'contract' is signed by said minor, the minor LIES to gain access whether a parent/guardian authorises to do so, therefore, the minor in question, has fraudulently gained access. > > > > C)i) You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf; > > ii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf; > > iii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” **You (parent/guardian/human responsible) are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor.** > > > > The childs account, is by law not owned by the child, it is owned by the responsible adult who takes care of said child. > > > > > > This is my favourite bit though; > > 9)C)iv) **the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible** under **all the provisions of this agreement**. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and **further agreed** that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes **both the adult at least 18 years of age** and otherwise legally **competent to read, understand and accept** the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, **as well as the minor** age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game; > > > > The UA when it comes to the game/company accessing minors, is also very clear. And since, account access is only granted upon agreement with the above, any repercussions are of the responsible adult, NOT that the 'contract' is invalid. > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. ESRB ratings are strictly for content alone. They have no legal binding at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why. > > But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot. > > Minors can not sign contracts. Again, since you want to join in the group of people who clearly havent read the [user Agreement](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/ "User Agreement"). Go read the User Agreement and then come back. I'll be here waiting for your moment of enlightenment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > Actually.... > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > it reads: > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. Got me there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why. > > > But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot. > > > > Minors can not sign contracts. > > Again, since you want to join in the group of people who clearly havent read the [user Agreement](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/ "User Agreement"). > > Go read the User Agreement and then come back. I'll be here waiting for your moment of enlightenment. Doesn't mean anything if no longer want to give them money, or others for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelliousChyld.6427 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX Again ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2? > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why. > > > > But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot. > > > > > > Minors can not sign contracts. > > > > Again, since you want to join in the group of people who clearly havent read the [user Agreement](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/ "User Agreement"). > > > > Go read the User Agreement and then come back. I'll be here waiting for your moment of enlightenment. > > Doesn't mean anything if no longer want to give them money, or others for that matter. What are you even on about ? Seriously first you attempt to devils advocate (poorly mind you) and now you're just being incoherent. Maybe its best you just stop since you don't want to educate yourself properly when it comes to this issue and are just here to company bash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. This line of argument is totally ridiculous. It IS the guardian's responsibility at these points. Anet is not liable for any of this if the other party doesn't come to the table. There are TWO parties involved in an agreement and Anet has covered the case where underage consent is necessary through a guardian. What's funny here is that you make out like Anet is an exception on how they deal with this situation ... you're not very familiar with online games in general I take it (or with your own privacy either, though you continue to profess how serious you take it). They all do the exact same thing for 'underage' players. I mean, it seems you advocate that these game companies are liable for the content of their games in the case where guardians are negligent. That makes no sense. The risk is ALWAYS on the player side, there is an expectation of compliance when you agree to something and an expectation that whatever agreement that was made is void if the player side doesn't meet the requirements of the agreement. I guess that's all just noise to someone that lives in a backwards country where the UA is just some bit of fluff that people can choose to ignore. Unfortunately for those players, it's real to Anet, and they are going to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > Actually.... > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > it reads: > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > Thanks for the work on finding your box His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. It doesn't say a 13 year old can register/agree to the ToS. It says 13 year old can play the game. Playing the game comes *after* accepting to the ToS, which the 13 year old can only do on behalf of the parent, with the parent's permission and agreement that any time the child clicks "I accept" the parent is fully responsible for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > Again > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. It also says inside with the installation manual that: Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. Guess what? That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > It doesn't say a 13 year old can register/agree to the ToS. It says 13 year old can play the game. Playing the game comes *after* accepting to the ToS, which the 13 year old can only do on behalf of the parent, with the parent's permission and agreement that any time the child clicks "I accept" the parent is fully responsible for it. It also says inside with the installation manual that: Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. Is that your stance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Being ignorant doesn't excuse people from the ToS ... period. The risk to violation is on the consumer side, not Anet's. It's clear what the spirit of the intent of the ToS is and if guardians are negligent, that doesn't default the liability to Anet. Your convoluted path of what is or isn't printed on what places doesn't change the spirit of what the ToS means between players and Anet. It's quite clear and if a player violates it, Anet will act on that. Despite the awesomeness of the country you live in where you say it's OK to ignore it, the ToS isn't just a formality. It has meaning and any broken link you think you have found in the agreement that you haven't even given any merit to doesn't invalidate that. That's just dishonest and irresponsible. It's not really clear what your intent is here anymore. Even if you point out some loopholes, so what? The people are still banned for violations that Anet defines ... and I don't doubt Anet would do it again in the same way to preserve the service they provide the responsible players that don't hide behind conspiracy theory and pedantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. > > The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. > > Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. > > Is that your stance? Actually accepting a user agreement does in fact not only imply that an adult has to be involved, it is explicitly so. This is by definition. Just as a it does not matter if a child is unaware that the law prohibits him from theft, it doesnt matter if he is unaware that he requires a guardian to sign a contract. This is why he has a guardian, parent, etc. They are expected to be knowledgeable, and informed of their responsibilities as parents. If they choose to refuse to fulfill their role as parent and guardian they can be held accountable. If they are disinclined to be parents they might want to consider avoiding having children and perhaps even consider giving up the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. > > > > > > The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. > > > > > > Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. > > > > > > Is that your stance? > > > > Actually accepting a user agreement does in fact not only imply that an adult has to be involved, it is explicitly so. This is by definition. > > > > Just as a it does not matter if a child is unaware that the law prohibits him from theft, it doesnt matter if he is unaware that he requires a guardian to sign a contract. This is why he has a guardian, parent, etc. They are expected to be knowledgeable, and informed of their responsibilities as parents. If they choose to refuse to fulfill their role as parent and guardian they can be held accountable. If they are disinclined to be parents they might want to consider avoiding having children and perhaps even consider giving up the child. > > So you are justifying exploitation of children and then requiring the parent to give them up for adoption? Nice strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelliousChyld.6427 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > > > Again > > > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. > > Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. > > > > They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. > > Guess what? > > That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore > Okay.... Okay.... you got me.... You got me.... You got me..... But seeing as you know, I picked up this game on 09/05/2012 per my receipt that I have to go along with my game.... and websites _NEVER EVER EVER_ change... You must POSSIBLY have me over a barrel. Or you know... websites actually _do_ change. Oh my, how you continue to thrust the information, wittle it down, and shove it into your paradigm. But here, for your own personal edification ONCE AGAIN.... You can read the following links here: http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-user-agreement.php http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.php http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/content-terms-of-use.php http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/privacy-policy.php [bTW since you are so nervous about your online privacy - these were updated in 2015, August to be exact. So that is almost three years ago. Just saying.] You continue to harp onto the fact that it doesn't wash, and wouldn't hold up. Simple fact of the matter is - the ToS And EULA actually goes directly against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 So . . . we're working this side of the rainbow now, eh? "Oh my God. What about the children!?" What's next? The computer made me do it? They've taken over! At this point, ANet should just start passing out tin foil hats for what this thread has tailspun into. Heck, give posters the Asuran Tin Foil Hat Award on our forum accounts for participating in this trainwreck of blaming everything _except_ the cheating itself.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelliousChyld.6427 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > So . . . we're working this side of the rainbow now, eh? "Oh my God. What about the children!?" What's next? The computer made me do it? They've taken over! At this point, ANet should just start passing out tin foil hats for what this thread has tailspun into. Heck, give posters the Asuran Tin Foil Hat Award on our forum accounts for participating in this trainwreck of blaming everything _except_ the cheating itself. > >  > ... I love that picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. > > > > The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. > > > > Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. > > > > Is that your stance? > > Actually accepting a user agreement does in fact not only imply that an adult has to be involved, it is explicitly so. This is by definition. > > Just as a it does not matter if a child is unaware that the law prohibits him from theft, it doesnt matter if he is unaware that he requires a guardian to sign a contract. This is why he has a guardian, parent, etc. They are expected to be knowledgeable, and informed of their responsibilities as parents. If they choose to refuse to fulfill their role as parent and guardian they can be held accountable. If they are disinclined to be parents they might want to consider avoiding having children and perhaps even consider giving up the child. While it's a little odd that it mentions a 13 year old being able to register, this is still true. A 13 year old is not legally able to accept the ToS (or UA as the manul calls it). Not only because the ToS/UA states than a adult approval is required, but because contact law in general does not allow a minor to enter into a contract on their own. I suppose it might say a 13 year old can register due to the wording in the ToS/UA allowing them to be the one that clicks "I accept", albeit with permission and agreement from the parent that it's being done so on the parent's behalf. It's a strange little maze of legalese...I hate trying to read these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I see this thread has devolved into petty sarcasm, name calling, and personal attacks again. GJ everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > > So . . . we're working this side of the rainbow now, eh? "Oh my God. What about the children!?" What's next? The computer made me do it? They've taken over! At this point, ANet should just start passing out tin foil hats for what this thread has tailspun into. Heck, give posters the Asuran Tin Foil Hat Award on our forum accounts for participating in this trainwreck of blaming everything _except_ the cheating itself. > > > >  > > > > ... I love that picture. That face...oh my. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelliousChyld.6427 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. > > > > > > The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. > > > > > > Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. > > > > > > Is that your stance? > > > > Actually accepting a user agreement does in fact not only imply that an adult has to be involved, it is explicitly so. This is by definition. > > > > Just as a it does not matter if a child is unaware that the law prohibits him from theft, it doesnt matter if he is unaware that he requires a guardian to sign a contract. This is why he has a guardian, parent, etc. They are expected to be knowledgeable, and informed of their responsibilities as parents. If they choose to refuse to fulfill their role as parent and guardian they can be held accountable. If they are disinclined to be parents they might want to consider avoiding having children and perhaps even consider giving up the child. > > While it's a little odd that it mentions a 13 year old being able to register, this is still true. A 13 year old is not legally able to accept the ToS (or UA as the manul calls it). Not only because the ToS/UA states than a adult approval is required, but because contact law in general does not allow a minor to enter into a contract on their own. > > I suppose it might say a 13 year old can register due to the wording in the ToS/UA allowing them to be the one that clicks "I accept", albeit with permission and agreement from the parent that it's being done so on the parent's behalf. It's a strange little maze of legalese...I hate trying to read these things. I am pretty sure it says that because on the box it says _children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play_ which is more than likely a way to reinforce the age restriction in the user manual. At least that's my thinking on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > It doesn't say a 13 year old can register/agree to the ToS. It says 13 year old can play the game. Playing the game comes *after* accepting to the ToS, which the 13 year old can only do on behalf of the parent, with the parent's permission and agreement that any time the child clicks "I accept" the parent is fully responsible for it. > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. It's almost like its saying if you're under 13, you can play as per stated in the UA, which you **also** have to agree too. But you're literally taking the individual parts instead of the totality of the contract because instead of being reasonable, you're being paranoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > > > > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > > > > > Again > > > > > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > > > > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > > > > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. > > > > Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. > > > > > > > > They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. > > > > Guess what? > > > > That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore > > > > Okay.... > > Okay.... you got me.... > > You got me.... > > You got me..... > > But seeing as you know, I picked up this game on 09/05/2012 per my receipt that I have to go along with my game.... and websites _NEVER EVER EVER_ change... You must POSSIBLY have me over a barrel. > > Or you know... websites actually _do_ change. > > Oh my, how you continue to thrust the information, wittle it down, and shove it into your paradigm. > > But here, for your own personal edification ONCE AGAIN.... > > You can read the following links here: > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-user-agreement.php > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.php > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/content-terms-of-use.php > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/privacy-policy.php [bTW since you are so nervous about your online privacy - these were updated in 2015, August to be exact. So that is almost three years ago. Just saying.] > > You continue to harp onto the fact that it doesn't wash, and wouldn't hold up. Simple fact of the matter is - the ToS And EULA actually goes directly against that. > Websites change yes. They can make you sign a different TOS/EULA before logging into the game at any time. Still doesn't change the argument that i've presented b/c the parent isn't playing the game or surfing the website. Now as Facebook and other high profile cases are starting to come to light we are going to see parents starting to ask questions. Very soon they will see what the MMO & video game companies are doing with their TOS/EULA's. There's going to be sweeping changes and lawmakers are going to get involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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