Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway) And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway) > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi) The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account. They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible. It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware. We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelliousChyld.6427 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > > > > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > > > > > > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > > > > > > > Again > > > > > > > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > > > > > > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > > > > > > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. > > > > > > Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. > > > > > > > > > > > > They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. > > > > > > Guess what? > > > > > > That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore > > > > > > > Okay.... > > > > Okay.... you got me.... > > > > You got me.... > > > > You got me..... > > > > But seeing as you know, I picked up this game on 09/05/2012 per my receipt that I have to go along with my game.... and websites _NEVER EVER EVER_ change... You must POSSIBLY have me over a barrel. > > > > Or you know... websites actually _do_ change. > > > > Oh my, how you continue to thrust the information, wittle it down, and shove it into your paradigm. > > > > But here, for your own personal edification ONCE AGAIN.... > > > > You can read the following links here: > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-user-agreement.php > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.php > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/content-terms-of-use.php > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/privacy-policy.php [bTW since you are so nervous about your online privacy - these were updated in 2015, August to be exact. So that is almost three years ago. Just saying.] > > > > You continue to harp onto the fact that it doesn't wash, and wouldn't hold up. Simple fact of the matter is - the ToS And EULA actually goes directly against that. > > > > Websites change yes. They can make you sign a different TOS/EULA before logging into the game at any time. > > Still doesn't change the argument that i've presented b/c the parent isn't playing the game or surfing the website. > > Now as Facebook and other high profile cases are starting to come to light we are going to see parents starting to ask questions. Very soon they will see what the MMO & video game companies are doing with their TOS/EULA's. > > There's going to be sweeping changes and lawmakers are going to get involved. But..... > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > > > Again > > > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. > > Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. > > > > They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. > > Guess what? > > That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore > That had nothing to do with the post that I was responding to. I was responding to the fact that the link to the user agreement doesn't work anymore. I am sure that the new games that are physical copies are updated, however - mine is not. So yea... what I was responding to, is what you originally said - and since that theory was thrown out the window, you came back with a new one as if to offer new and further validity to your paradigm. Here's one for you... That will put a dead end to your circular reasoning. If the parent is not aware of the fact that their child is on this game - though it says in the TOS/EULA that an adult who takes responsibility for the 13+ Minor has to agree to the terms for that child play the game... And it is found out that the parent did not agree to this, the account is banned and that is that.. As the ToS is null and void, and the company in good faith went as far as it could to insure that the guidelines are being followed. There is no obfuscation in this, it is there - clear as crystal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > > > > > > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > > > > > > > > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > > > > > > > > > Again > > > > > > > > > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > > > > > > > > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > > > > > > > > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. > > > > > > > > Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. > > > > > > > > Guess what? > > > > > > > > That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore > > > > > > > > > > Okay.... > > > > > > Okay.... you got me.... > > > > > > You got me.... > > > > > > You got me..... > > > > > > But seeing as you know, I picked up this game on 09/05/2012 per my receipt that I have to go along with my game.... and websites _NEVER EVER EVER_ change... You must POSSIBLY have me over a barrel. > > > > > > Or you know... websites actually _do_ change. > > > > > > Oh my, how you continue to thrust the information, wittle it down, and shove it into your paradigm. > > > > > > But here, for your own personal edification ONCE AGAIN.... > > > > > > You can read the following links here: > > > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-user-agreement.php > > > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.php > > > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/content-terms-of-use.php > > > > > > http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2/privacy-policy.php [bTW since you are so nervous about your online privacy - these were updated in 2015, August to be exact. So that is almost three years ago. Just saying.] > > > > > > You continue to harp onto the fact that it doesn't wash, and wouldn't hold up. Simple fact of the matter is - the ToS And EULA actually goes directly against that. > > > > > > > Websites change yes. They can make you sign a different TOS/EULA before logging into the game at any time. > > > > Still doesn't change the argument that i've presented b/c the parent isn't playing the game or surfing the website. > > > > Now as Facebook and other high profile cases are starting to come to light we are going to see parents starting to ask questions. Very soon they will see what the MMO & video game companies are doing with their TOS/EULA's. > > > > There's going to be sweeping changes and lawmakers are going to get involved. > > But..... > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations > > > > > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > > > > > No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together. > > > > > > > > > > And no, I didn't... > > > > > > > > > > Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13.... > > > > > > > > > > But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits. > > > > > > > > > > So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein. > > > > > > > > > > And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge is at the time of purchase. Even a diligent parent who reads the box can be mislead when it's clearly stated a 13 year old can register an account. Remember you have to accept the TOS/EULA before registering. > > > > > > > > The fact all information on the box has zero indication of needing a parent to agree that's the case. > > > > > > Then that is on the parent, NOT on the company. > > > > > > And you missed the part in which I said on the BOX > > > > > > Again > > > > > > ***Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.*** > > > > > > No where does it say on there that the 13 year old CAN register the account, and in fact, as a parent - I wouldn't think it would. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at this game for my 13 year old child, I would take the time to do research. Again - as a parent, if I am looking at getting this game for my child, I accept the inherit responsibilities of monitoring what they are doing on the game, their behavior, as well as the behavior of those on the game. > > > > > > Again - you're poking holes to try and fit this into your own little paradigm. > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, **account registration [13+ to Register]** required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/. > > > > Right there on the back of the box 13+ to register. No where does it state that a parent is needed to agree to the terms. That creates a direct path from the time of purchase to the signing of the agreement that has zero instances of informing that a person has to be of the legal age of consent to sign the TOS/EULA. Since that happens you have an underage child being the first person who is laying eyes on the TOS/EULA that is to be signed. THAT will not hold up in court b/c you can't expect a child who is under the age of consent to know an adult is needed. It's been ruled in all previous cases this way. > > > > > > > > They then use that agreement to install spyware on the computers of children or exploit the signing of said TOS/EULA to install spyware on the family's computers. Since the agreement is voided they've never obtained explicit consent to put spyware on the computers. THAT is illegal. > > > > Guess what? > > > > That link to the user agreement isn't working anymore > > > > > Here's one for you... That will put a dead end to your circular reasoning. > > the company in good faith went as far as it could to insure that the guidelines are being followed. > How did they in good faith go as far as they could? They updated an agreement for a child to sign again. This isn't circular arguing it's simple a hard stop in regards of the TOS/EULA being legal consent to install spyware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB > > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway) > > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi) > > The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account. > > They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible. > > It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware. > > We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people. The ESRB rating and the age group the game is targeted/marketed to are not the same thing. They often align because if you want to target/market to 13 year olds, you aren't going to have a level of violence or language that would cause it to be rated M. But there are other games that despite E or E10+ ratings, are not intended for or marketed to children. This could be for a variety of reasons such as complexity, difficulty, or simply not aligning with common likes/interests of kids. Despite their kid-friendly ratings I don't see many young kids enjoying the difficulty of a puzzle game like The Witness or having much interest in the broad range of [insert dull job here] Simulator games. And I think just about every game trailer outside of indie games has an ESRB rating thrown on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaa.8475 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 ANET! i think its time to shut this thread down. its went from "i wasn't doing anything wrong (prison system is full of innocent people, just ask them) to mistreatment of children(don't know how they got there). :p B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Galaa.8475" said: > "i wasn't doing anything wrong (prison system is full of innocent people, just ask them) In many ways, that’s not too far from the truth for the US prison system. At least as far as punishment not matching the crime goes, and even more so once you include people who are awaiting trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > > > Gotta love how some people are acting like ArenaNet gave the game a T rating and not some separate entity called the ESRB > > > Nope, Arenanet apparently gets to decide what the ESRB rates their games (i mean i guess they could insert more gore and sex to raise the number... but im not sure that would appeal to them anyway) > > > And as we all know, until age of majority parents take responsibility for any wrongdoing of a child (provided that the child is not the one proven to be a total menace acting outside of any parents possible control... then we ship their little butts to juvi) > > > > The ESRB ratings is a voluntary process. The fact that Arenanet puts that rating before all advertisements and all over their product confirms they made the game for that age group. Then finally on their requirements they list that you need to be 13 years or older to play AND you have to be 13 years or older to register an account. > > > > They have in fact set precedence for the age group of the game in every which way possible. > > > > It is perfectly viable for a parent to read the ESRB rating & read the requirements at time of purchase and never be informed they are required to sign the UA. In these situations the act of installing spyware is illegal. This has nothing to do with a child using a cheat program on a game and everything to do with the way they implemented their anti-cheat spyware. > > > > We are not arguing at the removal of cheaters in the game. We are arguing the way it was done since it's already been established they falsely banned people. > > The ESRB rating and the age group the game is targeted/marketed to are not the same thing. They often align because if you want to target/market to 13 year olds, you aren't going to have a level of violence or language that would cause it to be rated M. But there are other games that despite E or E10+ ratings, are not intended for or marketed to children. This could be for a variety of reasons such as complexity, difficulty, or simply not aligning with common likes/interests of kids. > > Despite their kid-friendly ratings I don't see many young kids enjoying the difficulty of a puzzle game like The Witness or having much interest in the broad range of [insert dull job here] Simulator games. > > And I think just about every game trailer outside of indie games has an ESRB rating thrown on it. They specifically state 13+ to register. They specifically show their ESRB rating at the beginning of advertisements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... That get ya up to speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. > > The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. > > Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. > > Is that your stance? Are you intentionally ignoring or misreading others' posts? A 13-year old CANNOT register. They may be physically capable of doing so but everything from the time you buy a boxed copy or attempt to create an account says it is NOT PERMITTED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpelion.4562 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... > > > That get ya up to speed? So your argument is that because someone could feasibly get around one unrelated aspect of the agreement, the entire agreement is unenforceable? That's like arguing that since I can get away with Jaywalking, I should be allowed to murder you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said: > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract. > > > > > > > > > > > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law. > > > > > > > > > > Actually.... > > > > > > > > > > It is, however, mentioned on the box. > > > > > > > > > > The dust cover and the case itself. > > > > > > > > > > it reads: > > > > > > > > > > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.** > > > > > > > > > > It also says inside with the installation manual that: > > > > > > > > > > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game. > > > > > > > > You just lost the case for Arenanet > > > > > > > > It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement > > > > > > > > Thanks for the work on finding your box > > > > > > His quote of the box disclaimers makes no mention of the ability of a 13 year old to sign the agreement. > > > > The argument is there's nothing saying an adult is needed. Only that the game's content is for 13 year olds and that 13 year olds can register. Accepting a user agreement term never even comes close to implying that an adult has to be the one to do it. The implication is a 13 year old is perfectly capable of doing it by reading the text since that is the ONLY identified age on the entire box. We can also take it a step forward and see that to register an account you have to first agree to the terms. So a 13 year old will be the first person to see the actual agreement which voids the entire document and any infallibility that it contains. > > > > Unless you argue that a 13 year old is capable of reading through legal documentation, understand it, and then make decisions based of that process. > > > > Is that your stance? > > Are you intentionally ignoring or misreading others' posts? A 13-year old CANNOT register. They may be physically capable of doing so but everything from the time you buy a boxed copy or attempt to create an account says it is NOT PERMITTED. **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.** That is what is on/in the box of GW2 when you buy it. It SPECIFICALLY states 13+ to register. There goes your argument. Look I know this thread is rather large and we all miss things when coming back after a short time Thanks for you reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone > > > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. > > > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. > > > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... > > > > > > That get ya up to speed? > > So your argument is that because someone could feasibly get around one unrelated aspect of the agreement, the entire agreement is unenforceable? That's like arguing that since I can get away with Jaywalking, I should be allowed to murder you too. Can you clarify your position. The whole post really doesn't pertain to what I said unless you are saying the child is in the wrong and doing something illegal. I don't want to assume anything just want to have a clear idea what you are saying Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 how can a single person hold a conversation where multiple people disagree with him, and then just keep saying the same flawed points over and over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpelion.4562 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > > > > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone > > > > > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. > > > > > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. > > > > > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... > > > > > > > > > That get ya up to speed? > > > > So your argument is that because someone could feasibly get around one unrelated aspect of the agreement, the entire agreement is unenforceable? That's like arguing that since I can get away with Jaywalking, I should be allowed to murder you too. > > Can you clarify your position. The whole post really doesn't pertain to what I said unless you are saying the child is in the wrong and doing something illegal. > > I don't want to assume anything just want to have a clear idea what you are saying > > Thanks! My position is that whether a child can access the game or sign the agreement has no bearing on the overall enforceability of the contract. Contracts are not completely invalidated if a single provision fails, and the assumption must be made that contracts are entered into in good faith. The fact that a child is illegitimately accessing the game without ArenaNet's knowledge, does not in any way affect their ability to continue enforcing every aspect of the contract until such time as it is made known to them that the access is illegitimate (at which point the contract is terminated and the child is cut off from the game via a ban). Ergo, the fact that a child CAN play the game despite being disallowed does not impact any of ArenaNet's rights under the assumed to be valid contract until such time as the contract is SHOWN to be invalid, at which point the contract is terminated and ArenaNet is held harmless (meaning everything they did while under the assumption of validity is enforceable). All of contract law requires the assumption of good faith (the idea that both parties are both capable and permitted to engage in the contract). The only way around this assumption would be for game companies to require you to provide your ID, Birth Certificate, Credit Score, and other extremely personal information in order to confirm your identity before letting you log on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yseron.8613 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 All this buz made me curious as to how [cheating evolved](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6JKD_YiHuI) since 20 years ago and interestingly enough, along the usual Kevins (teeangers who love spiky armors with flames that come out of their backside and are convinced that people recognize them in the street because they are named "Ultimate Killator CowBoy of D34tH")... there are now people who are old enough to take care of a family ! You cant stop progress. Who knows, maybe the next generation is aiming for reaching maturity at age 50 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > how can a single person hold a conversation where multiple people disagree with him, and then just keep saying the same flawed points over and over? If we took this discourse off anet forums I would be in the majority. Just because there are more apologists here does not make them correct. As for my flawed points no one has refuted the points successfully. I've had to repeat myself over and over due to a lot of people either not reading previous posts or believing something is true just because they believe. Thank you > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > > > > > > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone > > > > > > > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. > > > > > > > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. > > > > > > > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... > > > > > > > > > > > > That get ya up to speed? > > > > > > So your argument is that because someone could feasibly get around one unrelated aspect of the agreement, the entire agreement is unenforceable? That's like arguing that since I can get away with Jaywalking, I should be allowed to murder you too. > > > > Can you clarify your position. The whole post really doesn't pertain to what I said unless you are saying the child is in the wrong and doing something illegal. > > > > I don't want to assume anything just want to have a clear idea what you are saying > > > > Thanks! > > My position is that whether a child can access the game or sign the agreement has no bearing on the overall enforceability of the contract. > > Contracts are not completely invalidated if a single provision fails, and the assumption must be made that contracts are entered into in good faith. The fact that a child is illegitimately accessing the game without ArenaNet's knowledge, does not in any way affect their ability to continue enforcing every aspect of the contract until such time as it is made known to them that the access is illegitimate (at which point the contract is terminated and the child is cut off from the game via a ban). > > Ergo, the fact that a child CAN play the game despite being disallowed does not impact any of ArenaNet's rights under the assumed to be valid contract until such time as the contract is SHOWN to be invalid, at which point the contract is terminated and ArenaNet is held harmless (meaning everything they did while under the assumption of validity is enforceable). > > All of contract law requires the assumption of good faith (the idea that both parties are both capable and permitted to engage in the contract). > > The only way around this assumption would be for game companies to require you to provide your ID, Birth Certificate, Credit Score, and other extremely personal information in order to confirm your identity before letting you log on. Answer me this what provisions did Arenanet have preventing a child from invalidating their UA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpelion.4562 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Answer me this what provisions did Arenanet have preventing a child from invalidating their UA? No such provisions are necessary. The law states that only persons age 18 or older may enter into legal contracts (which, by the way, includes purchasing the game so a 13 year old can't even legally buy things without their parents' consent). A contract does not need provisions that duplicate legislative requirements. That'd be like needing to have all contracts state that humans can't breathe chlorine. You don't have to state it because it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Answer me this what provisions did Arenanet have preventing a child from invalidating their UA? > > No such provisions are necessary. The law states that only persons age 18 or older may enter into legal contracts (which, by the way, includes purchasing the game so a 13 year old can't even legally buy things without their parents' consent). A contract does not need provisions that duplicate legislative requirements. That'd be like needing to have all contracts state that humans can't breathe chlorine. You don't have to state it because it is. So your premises is that Arenanet is safe b/c you have to be 18 to sign a contract period right? Can you register an account with Arenanet without signing the contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... > > > That get ya up to speed? Yes, you want to play a hypothetical and ignore the reality and facts of what actually happened. Once again, the topic is about why players got suspended. This latest detour is not swaying anyone as far as the actual discussion. All it's doing is telling everyone the thread has very much run its course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > how can a single person hold a conversation where multiple people disagree with him, and then just keep saying the same flawed points over and over? cos interweebs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > > how can a single person hold a conversation where multiple people disagree with him, and then just keep saying the same flawed points over and over? > > If we took this discourse off anet forums I would be in the majority. Just because there are more apologists here does not make them correct. As for my flawed points no one has refuted the points successfully. I've had to repeat myself over and over due to a lot of people either not reading previous posts or believing something is true just because they believe. > > Thank you > > > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > How did this thread go from "I didnt cheat!" to "But what about the children?" > > > > > > > > > > > > On a side note, I remember the Greek defense minister posting a picture of a tie with human male reproductive organs on twitter (I am not sure you can write p___s) , to humiliate the opposing party after winning a vote. And afterwards, he blamed it on his kid, who was supposedly tinkering with his phone > > > > > > > > > > By challenging the legality of installing spyware with use of an online TOS/EULA. People were so adamant that Anet did nothing wrong and their UA is a fail safe that pardons them from everything. > > > > > > > > > > So I simply posed the question about what happens when its a child who clicks agree since all their marketing, information at sale, etc is geared towards their T rating. This inevitably puts a child in front of the computer at the time of agreement which voids it & their perceived infallibility that Anet has. > > > > > > > > > > What you see now is a scramble to find a way around that to excuse Anet..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That get ya up to speed? > > > > > > > > So your argument is that because someone could feasibly get around one unrelated aspect of the agreement, the entire agreement is unenforceable? That's like arguing that since I can get away with Jaywalking, I should be allowed to murder you too. > > > > > > Can you clarify your position. The whole post really doesn't pertain to what I said unless you are saying the child is in the wrong and doing something illegal. > > > > > > I don't want to assume anything just want to have a clear idea what you are saying > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > My position is that whether a child can access the game or sign the agreement has no bearing on the overall enforceability of the contract. > > > > Contracts are not completely invalidated if a single provision fails, and the assumption must be made that contracts are entered into in good faith. The fact that a child is illegitimately accessing the game without ArenaNet's knowledge, does not in any way affect their ability to continue enforcing every aspect of the contract until such time as it is made known to them that the access is illegitimate (at which point the contract is terminated and the child is cut off from the game via a ban). > > > > Ergo, the fact that a child CAN play the game despite being disallowed does not impact any of ArenaNet's rights under the assumed to be valid contract until such time as the contract is SHOWN to be invalid, at which point the contract is terminated and ArenaNet is held harmless (meaning everything they did while under the assumption of validity is enforceable). > > > > All of contract law requires the assumption of good faith (the idea that both parties are both capable and permitted to engage in the contract). > > > > The only way around this assumption would be for game companies to require you to provide your ID, Birth Certificate, Credit Score, and other extremely personal information in order to confirm your identity before letting you log on. > > Answer me this what provisions did Arenanet have preventing a child from invalidating their UA? Why must they provide such provisions.. they make it clear as per the required ratings and they have a EULA in place.. the rest comes down to individual behaviour and bad parenting.. ANET are not those parents. ANET stipulate the rules, how players circumnavigate them to gain access is kind of inline with what this whole thread is/was about... 2 wrongs don't make a right so to say if you want to throw the child argument at this whole cheat = suspension = not fair malarkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theros.1390 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Why this thread hasnt been closed yet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpelion.4562 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Answer me this what provisions did Arenanet have preventing a child from invalidating their UA? > > > > No such provisions are necessary. The law states that only persons age 18 or older may enter into legal contracts (which, by the way, includes purchasing the game so a 13 year old can't even legally buy things without their parents' consent). A contract does not need provisions that duplicate legislative requirements. That'd be like needing to have all contracts state that humans can't breathe chlorine. You don't have to state it because it is. > > So your premises is that Arenanet is safe b/c you have to be 18 to sign a contract period right? > > Can you register an account with Arenanet without signing the contract? Let's say a 17 year old goes into a shop and buys some lottery tickets. Let's also say that one of those tickets wins a prize! When the 17 year old goes to collect his prize he gets informed that since he is 17, he cannot legally purchase a lottery ticket. He does not get a refund OR the prize. As long as you never attempt to claim a prize, the lottery will never know that you are underage and is acting in good faith with their belief that you are legally allowed to buy tickets. That is why they get to keep your money AND refuse to give you the prize. This is the same situation. As long as a child never tells ArenaNet that they are LYING to them when they sign up for an account, ArenaNet will have no reason to assume they are acting in bad faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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