ilmi.5369 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief. > > > > Let me quote you: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > >YOU said thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE > > I said 'up to 10' and not 10+. I did not claim that as the always go to style but as an extreme example that any thief on offhand pistol and short bow can do with shadowstep. I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded). > > > > > I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon. > > Fine with me. Besides you have preferred to understand my comment as an attempt to describe p/p as a perma stealth build that can dps for ages while being invisible and argue about the typical and most efficient fighting style of a p/p hief , while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. > > > > > Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini. > > Stealth as such does not remove anything but gives an advantage to anyone. What you probably mean and what I can agree with, is that draining your whole initiative and then starting a battle before it got reimbursed does not allow to spam 3 unloads in a row. That's obvious and can be said for basically any skill that requires initiative. > > Lol, but unload is the entire point of this thread. Why are you commenting about something that removes the ability to spam unload? Context please. Just read what I wrote and on what I commented. I already answered your question (if it is a question and not just a lol comment) in my previous comment: > @"ilmi.5369" said: > I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise > > which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded). Stealth came into play as ONE way to prepare attacking someone without being noticed and does not remove anything if you do not overextend the ini invest. BTW, this thread is actually not only about spamming but about unload in general. But since it has gone a long way and some people focused on the spam topic while justifying the spam factor as being typical for thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"pah.4931" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > > > > > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point. > > > > > > > > > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best... > > > > > > > > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk. > > > > > > > > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed). > > > > > > > > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds. > > > > > > > > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two. > > > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned. > > > > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload. > > > > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload. > > > > > > Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit. > > > > > > Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves. > > > > P/P thief has poor mobility and poor stealth access. Added to that your Necro using Gravedigger and wearing Zerker is going to have 8000 more health over your Thief in zerker using unload. The Necro does not have to hit as often to take away just as great and more a percentage of that thiefs health. > > > > People CONTINUE to ignore the fact that the Zerker thief has 8000 less health then things like warrior and necro. A thief hitting a Necro or Warrior with a 10k burst removes 50 percent of that players health if that player in Zerker. To remove 50 percent of that same Thiefs health in a single attack takes 5500 damage on a single attack. Why is it ok to remove 50% of another persons health as long as you are not a thief or are people claiming that Necro and Warrior do not have attacks that hit for 5500? > > Again, I cannot take you seriously if you're comparing Unload to Gravedigger -- just because "they both do lots of damage." Landing Gravedigger is exponentially harder to do than Unload. If you miss the Gravedigger it's on cooldown. Gravedigger has a slow wind-up (you can literally walk away from it without dodging lol) and no range. There is no way to "surprise" a player with Gravedigger, barring an ally giving us stealth (and even then, who opens with GD from stealth?)... Necros can't teleport into a fight mid-animation like radiant hammer. > > "Poor mobility and stealth access =/= no mobility and stealth access. > > Bottomline, Thieves can engage from stealth, spam a high damage ability without any drawbacks (not punished for missing or it being dodged cause you can just re-position and try again), and then disengage if things get hairy. Necros lumber into battle and hope you're dumb enough to stand in their slow attacks ;) > > If you're +1'd by a Power Reaper by surprise, which is really why people hate PP thief so much, then you should consider taking a long break and thinking about life choices :D I never said a reaper against a p/p thief would prevail. This however has little to do with p/p thief and more to do with range as a ranger would come out on top versus a reaper as well. The drwbacks of spamming a skill on a thief are many and have been mentioned here ad nauseum. . All of their skills are punished when they MISS an attack.If I miss an attack on p/p thief I just lost 1/3 of my INI meaning all of my weapon skills will have less access. If I miss rapidfire on my ranger, I can still use knockback , barrage hunters shot or switch to longsword for maul. You stated specifically that a p/p thief had tons of stealth and mobility. They do NOT. of the thief specs it at the bottom of most of their builds when it comes to such and the only real thing that can make them tick is that high damage potential. That this limited mobility and stealth might allow them to keep out of the clutches of a reaper does not translate to tons of mobility and escape. My ranger in a ranger versus reaper matchup has more mobility and escape. P/P Thief can certainly narrow this edge by taking SB off hand for Infiltrators but when they use that to escape they just burned the INI they need for that unload. Other ranged builds on other classes do not have to make this choice. This facet of gameplay is how the thief ability to spam a skill is balanced. Again in claiming there no downside to missing an attack on thief, you show a lack of understanding of how they tick. The consequences of missing with an attack are significant. If facing a d/p thief daredevil just as example, and missing with two of those unloads , D/p thief with its HIGHER mobility , its extra dodges via daredevil and its much easier stealth access will wreck that p/p user. At the same time that d/p thief will have a harder time with a reaper or a scourge especially than will a p/p thief. When you mention your "botomline" on thieves and attribute high stealth access and mobility to the very specific p/p build we are talking about you are ignoring the fact that stealth and mobility are the very things p/p thief generally gives up. They rely on RANGE and high damage bursts to prevail more then they do stealth and mobility. There nothing in the p/p set that provides either stealth OR mobility. That stuff has to come from the utilities or reliance on a different weaponset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > [...] > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > >There's tons of things a thief will still be able to do while waiting for Unload charges to come back, go decap a point, snare someone with immobilize, interrupt with headshot, rush in and blind people, swap to the other weapon set, /point @ and /laugh at enemies... Anything other than repeating the same move again. > > Alas, this is the level we've come to. I think a more appropriate thing to do is /cry. > > Let's talk about this whenever we remove the cooldown from weapon swap or give separate initiative pools to each weapon set. The Thief already has TOO MANY limits on what it can do. It doesn't need any more. > > Heck, just make D/P and S/D as lethal and survivable as Unload, and I'll be happy. That's the true problem for the Thief. Our strongest attack is from range. Not only does it avoid all of the lethal AoE, but it can be done more than once every 4+ seconds. Instead of increasing melee lethality (which should always outdamage ranged skills), Anet decided to drive it into the ground. > > The sad truth is this... you're wanting Anet to "fix" a problem that they created by breaking something else. > > I prefer D/P. I prefer S/D. Neither is as effective against the majority of players as Unload is. It's not due to the skill itself. It's due to the nature of the Thief's fragility and vulnerability. The Might-stacking should be moved to melee sets instead if it exists anywhere. > > [...] No. I want ANet to address an issue that will keep rearing its head again and again until it is addressed. And I see a lot of people talking about power and weaknesses and counters and all sorts of things that have been changed and adjusted again and again without ever affecting the issue, because they are not the source of the issue. The problem isn't that Unload is too powerful, the problem is that the way it works along other effects make it people use it in a way that is bad for the flow of the battle. No change other that skill ammo will fix this for thief skills affected by this issue, because any other changes possible at this time with the current existing mechanics will always result in the skill being too nerfed and discarded, or too powerful and overused, or completely out of line with thief playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best... > > > > > > > > > > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk. > > > > > > > > > > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed). > > > > > > > > > > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned. > > > > > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload. > > > > > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload. > > > > > > > > Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit. > > > > > > > > Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves. > > > > > > P/P thief has poor mobility and poor stealth access. Added to that your Necro using Gravedigger and wearing Zerker is going to have 8000 more health over your Thief in zerker using unload. The Necro does not have to hit as often to take away just as great and more a percentage of that thiefs health. > > > > > > People CONTINUE to ignore the fact that the Zerker thief has 8000 less health then things like warrior and necro. A thief hitting a Necro or Warrior with a 10k burst removes 50 percent of that players health if that player in Zerker. To remove 50 percent of that same Thiefs health in a single attack takes 5500 damage on a single attack. Why is it ok to remove 50% of another persons health as long as you are not a thief or are people claiming that Necro and Warrior do not have attacks that hit for 5500? > > > > Again, I cannot take you seriously if you're comparing Unload to Gravedigger -- just because "they both do lots of damage." Landing Gravedigger is exponentially harder to do than Unload. If you miss the Gravedigger it's on cooldown. Gravedigger has a slow wind-up (you can literally walk away from it without dodging lol) and no range. There is no way to "surprise" a player with Gravedigger, barring an ally giving us stealth (and even then, who opens with GD from stealth?)... Necros can't teleport into a fight mid-animation like radiant hammer. > > > > "Poor mobility and stealth access =/= no mobility and stealth access. > > > > Bottomline, Thieves can engage from stealth, spam a high damage ability without any drawbacks (not punished for missing or it being dodged cause you can just re-position and try again), and then disengage if things get hairy. Necros lumber into battle and hope you're dumb enough to stand in their slow attacks ;) > > > > If you're +1'd by a Power Reaper by surprise, which is really why people hate PP thief so much, then you should consider taking a long break and thinking about life choices :D > > I never said a reaper against a p/p thief would prevail. This however has little to do with p/p thief and more to do with range as a ranger would come out on top versus a reaper as well. The drwbacks of spamming a skill on a thief are many and have been mentioned here ad nauseum. . All of their skills are punished when they MISS an attack.If I miss an attack on p/p thief I just lost 1/3 of my INI meaning all of my weapon skills will have less access. If I miss rapidfire on my ranger, I can still use knockback , barrage hunters shot or switch to longsword for maul. > > You stated specifically that a p/p thief had tons of stealth and mobility. They do NOT. of the thief specs it at the bottom of most of their builds when it comes to such and the only real thing that can make them tick is that high damage potential. That this limited mobility and stealth might allow them to keep out of the clutches of a reaper does not translate to tons of mobility and escape. My ranger in a ranger versus reaper matchup has more mobility and escape. P/P Thief can certainly narrow this edge by taking SB off hand for Infiltrators but when they use that to escape they just burned the INI they need for that unload. Other ranged builds on other classes do not have to make this choice. This facet of gameplay is how the thief ability to spam a skill is balanced. > > Again in claiming there no downside to missing an attack on thief, you show a lack of understanding of how they tick. The consequences of missing with an attack are significant. If facing a d/p thief daredevil just as example, and missing with two of those unloads , D/p thief with its HIGHER mobility , its extra dodges via daredevil and its much easier stealth access will wreck that p/p user. At the same time that d/p thief will have a harder time with a reaper or a scourge especially than will a p/p thief. > > When you mention your "botomline" on thieves and attribute high stealth access and mobility to the very specific p/p build we are talking about you are ignoring the fact that stealth and mobility are the very things p/p thief generally gives up. They rely on RANGE and high damage bursts to prevail more then they do stealth and mobility. There nothing in the p/p set that provides either stealth OR mobility. That stuff has to come from the utilities or reliance on a different weaponset. I've faced PP thieves who have engaged from stealth, then re-stealthed to disengage when I switched targets and started destroying them. Compared to a reaper (which I didn't bring up first), that is a lot of stealth. Sure they don't have AS MUSH access to it as other builds, but they do have access to it. Not sure how that's a point of argument. I was originally commenting on how you cannot compare pure damage number abilities across builds. Unload is nowhere near the same as Gravedigger. If anything, Unload should hit slightly weaker and Gravedigger should hit harder. For a class that can come out of nowhere and then disappear, Unload is a lot of damage and FEELS terrible for people playing against it. I don't think the amount of damage is necessarily broken (I usually kill PP thieves with ease), but saying "other classes have high damage abilities" is a terrible defense of the class balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"pah.4931" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best... > > > > > > > > > > > > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk. > > > > > > > > > > > > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed). > > > > > > > > > > > > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned. > > > > > > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload. > > > > > > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload. > > > > > > > > > > Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves. > > > > > > > > P/P thief has poor mobility and poor stealth access. Added to that your Necro using Gravedigger and wearing Zerker is going to have 8000 more health over your Thief in zerker using unload. The Necro does not have to hit as often to take away just as great and more a percentage of that thiefs health. > > > > > > > > People CONTINUE to ignore the fact that the Zerker thief has 8000 less health then things like warrior and necro. A thief hitting a Necro or Warrior with a 10k burst removes 50 percent of that players health if that player in Zerker. To remove 50 percent of that same Thiefs health in a single attack takes 5500 damage on a single attack. Why is it ok to remove 50% of another persons health as long as you are not a thief or are people claiming that Necro and Warrior do not have attacks that hit for 5500? > > > > > > Again, I cannot take you seriously if you're comparing Unload to Gravedigger -- just because "they both do lots of damage." Landing Gravedigger is exponentially harder to do than Unload. If you miss the Gravedigger it's on cooldown. Gravedigger has a slow wind-up (you can literally walk away from it without dodging lol) and no range. There is no way to "surprise" a player with Gravedigger, barring an ally giving us stealth (and even then, who opens with GD from stealth?)... Necros can't teleport into a fight mid-animation like radiant hammer. > > > > > > "Poor mobility and stealth access =/= no mobility and stealth access. > > > > > > Bottomline, Thieves can engage from stealth, spam a high damage ability without any drawbacks (not punished for missing or it being dodged cause you can just re-position and try again), and then disengage if things get hairy. Necros lumber into battle and hope you're dumb enough to stand in their slow attacks ;) > > > > > > If you're +1'd by a Power Reaper by surprise, which is really why people hate PP thief so much, then you should consider taking a long break and thinking about life choices :D > > > > I never said a reaper against a p/p thief would prevail. This however has little to do with p/p thief and more to do with range as a ranger would come out on top versus a reaper as well. The drwbacks of spamming a skill on a thief are many and have been mentioned here ad nauseum. . All of their skills are punished when they MISS an attack.If I miss an attack on p/p thief I just lost 1/3 of my INI meaning all of my weapon skills will have less access. If I miss rapidfire on my ranger, I can still use knockback , barrage hunters shot or switch to longsword for maul. > > > > You stated specifically that a p/p thief had tons of stealth and mobility. They do NOT. of the thief specs it at the bottom of most of their builds when it comes to such and the only real thing that can make them tick is that high damage potential. That this limited mobility and stealth might allow them to keep out of the clutches of a reaper does not translate to tons of mobility and escape. My ranger in a ranger versus reaper matchup has more mobility and escape. P/P Thief can certainly narrow this edge by taking SB off hand for Infiltrators but when they use that to escape they just burned the INI they need for that unload. Other ranged builds on other classes do not have to make this choice. This facet of gameplay is how the thief ability to spam a skill is balanced. > > > > Again in claiming there no downside to missing an attack on thief, you show a lack of understanding of how they tick. The consequences of missing with an attack are significant. If facing a d/p thief daredevil just as example, and missing with two of those unloads , D/p thief with its HIGHER mobility , its extra dodges via daredevil and its much easier stealth access will wreck that p/p user. At the same time that d/p thief will have a harder time with a reaper or a scourge especially than will a p/p thief. > > > > When you mention your "botomline" on thieves and attribute high stealth access and mobility to the very specific p/p build we are talking about you are ignoring the fact that stealth and mobility are the very things p/p thief generally gives up. They rely on RANGE and high damage bursts to prevail more then they do stealth and mobility. There nothing in the p/p set that provides either stealth OR mobility. That stuff has to come from the utilities or reliance on a different weaponset. > > I've faced PP thieves who have engaged from stealth, then re-stealthed to disengage when I switched targets and started destroying them. Compared to a reaper (which I didn't bring up first), that is a lot of stealth. Sure they don't have AS MUSH access to it as other builds, but they do have access to it. Not sure how that's a point of argument. I was originally commenting on how you cannot compare pure damage number abilities across builds. Unload is nowhere near the same as Gravedigger. If anything, Unload should hit slightly weaker and Gravedigger should hit harder. > > For a class that can come out of nowhere and then disappear, Unload is a lot of damage and FEELS terrible for people playing against it. I don't think the amount of damage is necessarily broken (I usually kill PP thieves with ease), but saying "other classes have high damage abilities" is a terrible defense of the class balance. > Other classes having damage that hits for just as much as p/p unload is a valid counterpoint to claiming p/p overpowered and especially when you factor in the fact that those other classes can have as much as 8k more health without any sacrifice other then choosing that class. So again. If unload hits too hard because it can take 10k of health away from a Necro in a single hit (which is 50 percent) Why do YOU think it "balanced" to have a skill on some other class that can take 90+ percent of that Thiefs health in a single hit? I can use Zerker warrior and hit a zerker thief for 10k just using bulls charge. That that skill has an ICD is immaterial given I can follow up with a multitude of other hard hitting skills (eviscerate , the Chop chain, headbutt , final blow etc) that will hit just as hard all while having an 8k head start in health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiden The Beast.3016 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Any thief that does significant damage is too powerful, and their playstyle is cheesy and annoying regardless of how fragile/easily countered it is. > > > > Because shortbow and stealth. > > Guardian block, heal, and aegis spam - cheesy and annoying > Warrior regen and invuln and FC - cheesy and annoying > Ranger knockback + rapid fire then let pet do all the work - cheesy and annoying > Mesmer 40 page thread - cheesy and annoying > Engy photon forge rotation spam - cheesy and annoying > Necro aoe condition *spam* - cheesy and annoying > > Is there anything besides current state of ele and rev that *isn't* cheesy and annoying? > None of these are or will ever be as easily countered as P/P thief. So true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned. > > > > > > > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload. > > > > > > > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves. > > > > > > > > > > P/P thief has poor mobility and poor stealth access. Added to that your Necro using Gravedigger and wearing Zerker is going to have 8000 more health over your Thief in zerker using unload. The Necro does not have to hit as often to take away just as great and more a percentage of that thiefs health. > > > > > > > > > > People CONTINUE to ignore the fact that the Zerker thief has 8000 less health then things like warrior and necro. A thief hitting a Necro or Warrior with a 10k burst removes 50 percent of that players health if that player in Zerker. To remove 50 percent of that same Thiefs health in a single attack takes 5500 damage on a single attack. Why is it ok to remove 50% of another persons health as long as you are not a thief or are people claiming that Necro and Warrior do not have attacks that hit for 5500? > > > > > > > > Again, I cannot take you seriously if you're comparing Unload to Gravedigger -- just because "they both do lots of damage." Landing Gravedigger is exponentially harder to do than Unload. If you miss the Gravedigger it's on cooldown. Gravedigger has a slow wind-up (you can literally walk away from it without dodging lol) and no range. There is no way to "surprise" a player with Gravedigger, barring an ally giving us stealth (and even then, who opens with GD from stealth?)... Necros can't teleport into a fight mid-animation like radiant hammer. > > > > > > > > "Poor mobility and stealth access =/= no mobility and stealth access. > > > > > > > > Bottomline, Thieves can engage from stealth, spam a high damage ability without any drawbacks (not punished for missing or it being dodged cause you can just re-position and try again), and then disengage if things get hairy. Necros lumber into battle and hope you're dumb enough to stand in their slow attacks ;) > > > > > > > > If you're +1'd by a Power Reaper by surprise, which is really why people hate PP thief so much, then you should consider taking a long break and thinking about life choices :D > > > > > > I never said a reaper against a p/p thief would prevail. This however has little to do with p/p thief and more to do with range as a ranger would come out on top versus a reaper as well. The drwbacks of spamming a skill on a thief are many and have been mentioned here ad nauseum. . All of their skills are punished when they MISS an attack.If I miss an attack on p/p thief I just lost 1/3 of my INI meaning all of my weapon skills will have less access. If I miss rapidfire on my ranger, I can still use knockback , barrage hunters shot or switch to longsword for maul. > > > > > > You stated specifically that a p/p thief had tons of stealth and mobility. They do NOT. of the thief specs it at the bottom of most of their builds when it comes to such and the only real thing that can make them tick is that high damage potential. That this limited mobility and stealth might allow them to keep out of the clutches of a reaper does not translate to tons of mobility and escape. My ranger in a ranger versus reaper matchup has more mobility and escape. P/P Thief can certainly narrow this edge by taking SB off hand for Infiltrators but when they use that to escape they just burned the INI they need for that unload. Other ranged builds on other classes do not have to make this choice. This facet of gameplay is how the thief ability to spam a skill is balanced. > > > > > > Again in claiming there no downside to missing an attack on thief, you show a lack of understanding of how they tick. The consequences of missing with an attack are significant. If facing a d/p thief daredevil just as example, and missing with two of those unloads , D/p thief with its HIGHER mobility , its extra dodges via daredevil and its much easier stealth access will wreck that p/p user. At the same time that d/p thief will have a harder time with a reaper or a scourge especially than will a p/p thief. > > > > > > When you mention your "botomline" on thieves and attribute high stealth access and mobility to the very specific p/p build we are talking about you are ignoring the fact that stealth and mobility are the very things p/p thief generally gives up. They rely on RANGE and high damage bursts to prevail more then they do stealth and mobility. There nothing in the p/p set that provides either stealth OR mobility. That stuff has to come from the utilities or reliance on a different weaponset. > > > > I've faced PP thieves who have engaged from stealth, then re-stealthed to disengage when I switched targets and started destroying them. Compared to a reaper (which I didn't bring up first), that is a lot of stealth. Sure they don't have AS MUSH access to it as other builds, but they do have access to it. Not sure how that's a point of argument. I was originally commenting on how you cannot compare pure damage number abilities across builds. Unload is nowhere near the same as Gravedigger. If anything, Unload should hit slightly weaker and Gravedigger should hit harder. > > > > For a class that can come out of nowhere and then disappear, Unload is a lot of damage and FEELS terrible for people playing against it. I don't think the amount of damage is necessarily broken (I usually kill PP thieves with ease), but saying "other classes have high damage abilities" is a terrible defense of the class balance. > > > > Other classes having damage that hits for just as much as p/p unload is a valid counterpoint to claiming p/p overpowered and especially when you factor in the fact that those other classes can have as much as 8k more health without any sacrifice other then choosing that class. > > So again. If unload hits too hard because it can take 10k of health away from a Necro in a single hit (which is 50 percent) Why do YOU think it "balanced" to have a skill on some other class that can take 90+ percent of that Thiefs health in a single hit? I can use Zerker warrior and hit a zerker thief for 10k just using bulls charge. That that skill has an ICD is immaterial given I can follow up with a multitude of other hard hitting skills (eviscerate , the Chop chain, headbutt , final blow etc) that will hit just as hard all while having an 8k head start in health. lol to "without any sacrifice" ... I think doing that much damage can and can't be "balanced" ... there is way more to consider than just X does XX damage and Y has YY health, therefore BALANCE. Balance isn't JUST a numbers game in a game as complex as GW2. Warrior and Necro have the same base health (most in game) and you still wouldn't compare their abilities with a 1:1 mindset because their entire kit is completely different. Necros have just about zero defense except shroud (which is oddly, and poorly designed, also Reapers most reliable burst as well). Warriors have more access to defensive abilities (especially invulns). Then there is group support to consider. Mobility is another factor. Disengage abilities. Etc. Even if we simplify everything, I think a bruiser profession (Reaper) made deliberately slow should without a doubt do more melee damage and have more health than a ranged stealth ganker glass cannon (PP thief). Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majirah.5089 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > [...] > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > >There's tons of things a thief will still be able to do while waiting for Unload charges to come back, go decap a point, snare someone with immobilize, interrupt with headshot, rush in and blind people, swap to the other weapon set, /point @ and /laugh at enemies... Anything other than repeating the same move again. > > > > Alas, this is the level we've come to. I think a more appropriate thing to do is /cry. > > > > Let's talk about this whenever we remove the cooldown from weapon swap or give separate initiative pools to each weapon set. The Thief already has TOO MANY limits on what it can do. It doesn't need any more. > > > > Heck, just make D/P and S/D as lethal and survivable as Unload, and I'll be happy. That's the true problem for the Thief. Our strongest attack is from range. Not only does it avoid all of the lethal AoE, but it can be done more than once every 4+ seconds. Instead of increasing melee lethality (which should always outdamage ranged skills), Anet decided to drive it into the ground. > > > > The sad truth is this... you're wanting Anet to "fix" a problem that they created by breaking something else. > > > > I prefer D/P. I prefer S/D. Neither is as effective against the majority of players as Unload is. It's not due to the skill itself. It's due to the nature of the Thief's fragility and vulnerability. The Might-stacking should be moved to melee sets instead if it exists anywhere. > > > > [...] > > No. I want ANet to address an issue that will keep rearing its head again and again until it is addressed. And I see a lot of people talking about power and weaknesses and counters and all sorts of things that have been changed and adjusted again and again without ever affecting the issue, because they are not the source of the issue. The problem isn't that Unload is too powerful, the problem is that the way it works along other effects make it people use it in a way that is bad for the flow of the battle. > > No change other that skill ammo will fix this for thief skills affected by this issue, because any other changes possible at this time with the current existing mechanics will always result in the skill being too nerfed and discarded, or too powerful and overused, or completely out of line with thief playstyle. > > Skill ammo on thief weapon skills would defeat the purpose of initiative. Initiative already functions as ammo, but is much more restrictive in that it also locks out all other abilities on both weapons sets as initiative is used. The whole point of initiative is to allow the thief to use a particular skill multiple times at the cost of losing the ability to use any other weapon skill if they use too much initiative. The weapon skills are balanced by initiative cost. It doesn’t need another restriction. It really seems like people don’t understand initiative. And also seem to think that thieves have unlimited initiative. You know the thief that can spam shortbow 5 four times to get somewhere, switch to dual pistols and immediately unload 6 times, switch again and shortbow away off into the sunset all with no downtime. That example is a bit hyperbole, but many seem to think thief initiative pool is much larger than it actually is. PP is easily countered. Bring reflects, blocks, projectile destroyers, use an evade skill, dodge, or LOS. The last two are available to any build. The others are available to almost any class that decides to work it into its build. It would be like me complaining endlessly about condi, but not bringing any condi clear or resistance even though it’s available to me. It’s a non-issue. If you don’t want to die to PP change your build. If you don’t want to change your build even though you can, then that is your problem not a problem with PP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiden The Beast.3016 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Any thief that does significant damage is too powerful, and their playstyle is cheesy and annoying regardless of how fragile/easily countered it is. > > > > Because shortbow and stealth. > > Guardian block, heal, and aegis spam - cheesy and annoying > Warrior regen and invuln and FC - cheesy and annoying > Ranger knockback + rapid fire then let pet do all the work - cheesy and annoying > Mesmer 40 page thread - cheesy and annoying > Engy photon forge rotation spam - cheesy and annoying > Necro aoe condition *spam* - cheesy and annoying > > Is there anything besides current state of ele and rev that *isn't* cheesy and annoying? > None of these are or will ever be as easily countered as P/P thief. So true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Majirah.5089" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > > [...] > > > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > >There's tons of things a thief will still be able to do while waiting for Unload charges to come back, go decap a point, snare someone with immobilize, interrupt with headshot, rush in and blind people, swap to the other weapon set, /point @ and /laugh at enemies... Anything other than repeating the same move again. > > > > > > Alas, this is the level we've come to. I think a more appropriate thing to do is /cry. > > > > > > Let's talk about this whenever we remove the cooldown from weapon swap or give separate initiative pools to each weapon set. The Thief already has TOO MANY limits on what it can do. It doesn't need any more. > > > > > > Heck, just make D/P and S/D as lethal and survivable as Unload, and I'll be happy. That's the true problem for the Thief. Our strongest attack is from range. Not only does it avoid all of the lethal AoE, but it can be done more than once every 4+ seconds. Instead of increasing melee lethality (which should always outdamage ranged skills), Anet decided to drive it into the ground. > > > > > > The sad truth is this... you're wanting Anet to "fix" a problem that they created by breaking something else. > > > > > > I prefer D/P. I prefer S/D. Neither is as effective against the majority of players as Unload is. It's not due to the skill itself. It's due to the nature of the Thief's fragility and vulnerability. The Might-stacking should be moved to melee sets instead if it exists anywhere. > > > > > > [...] > > > > No. I want ANet to address an issue that will keep rearing its head again and again until it is addressed. And I see a lot of people talking about power and weaknesses and counters and all sorts of things that have been changed and adjusted again and again without ever affecting the issue, because they are not the source of the issue. The problem isn't that Unload is too powerful, the problem is that the way it works along other effects make it people use it in a way that is bad for the flow of the battle. > > > > No change other that skill ammo will fix this for thief skills affected by this issue, because any other changes possible at this time with the current existing mechanics will always result in the skill being too nerfed and discarded, or too powerful and overused, or completely out of line with thief playstyle. > > > > > > Skill ammo on thief weapon skills would defeat the purpose of initiative. Initiative already functions as ammo, but is much more restrictive in that it also locks out all other abilities on both weapons sets as initiative is used. The whole point of initiative is to allow the thief to use a particular skill multiple times at the cost of losing the ability to use any other weapon skill if they use too much initiative. The weapon skills are balanced by initiative cost. It doesn’t need another restriction. > > It really seems like people don’t understand initiative. And also seem to think that thieves have unlimited initiative. You know the thief that can spam shortbow 5 four times to get somewhere, switch to dual pistols and immediately unload 6 times, switch again and shortbow away off into the sunset all with no downtime. That example is a bit hyperbole, but many seem to think thief initiative pool is much larger than it actually is. > > PP is easily countered. Bring reflects, blocks, projectile destroyers, use an evade skill, dodge, or LOS. The last two are available to any build. The others are available to almost any class that decides to work it into its build. It would be like me complaining endlessly about condi, but not bringing any condi clear or resistance even though it’s available to me. It’s a non-issue. If you don’t want to die to PP change your build. If you don’t want to change your build even though you can, then that is your problem not a problem with PP. Nope. Giving the skill a recharge would defeat the purpose of initiative. Anything that makes the skill not usable consecutively. Skill ammo still allows it to be usable consecutively, but only up to a point. The point that needs to happen less often. The point at which projectile hate and retaliation do not work as often as they should against it. Up to that point, Unload is fine. And any change to improve Unload would not affect it except when that point is reached. And it's already too late to say "no" for using skill ammo on thief weapons, thanks to the rifle. Enter Kneel. Kneel is not meant to be used over and over. Kneel still costs initiative, with an increased cost as Sniper's Cover. A higher cost to Sniper's Cover like Cloak and Dagger would consume too much initiative, making the weapon less usable after kneeling. Requiring it to hit targets would not help, since it's much easier than Cloak and Dagger as a ranged weapon. A fixed recharge would not only not go well with the feel of thief weapons, what if you accidentally press it, or have to quickly move because of an unpredicted event? It should be usable soon right away. But not too often. You could think of many other possibilities other than skill ammo, but none would work nearly as well to solve the problems of a Sniper's Cover being always usable. The only way to make it usable just a few times in a row was skill ammo. And it works, it does the job just the right way it needs to be done. Unload may not be quite like Sniper's Cover, but the fundamentals of the problem boil down to the same thing. Of course having that little ammo for Unload would not do, there would have to be enough charges for it to be used several times in a row, but not too many, like 4 to 5 charges. And it would not work very well if the ammo count was recovered slowly over time like other skill ammo skills, maybe for other skills like Vault and Death Blossom that'll do, but not for Unload. So it would be much better if all charges were recovered at the same time instead one by one. And the count recharge would have to make all charges usable often enough, with a good timing to take advantage of openings, while still leaving times of respite to enemies, like 10 to 15 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief. > > Let me quote you: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > >YOU said thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE > I said 'up to 10' and not 10+. I did not claim that as the always go to style but as an extreme example that any thief on offhand pistol and short bow can do with shadowstep. I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded). > > > I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon. > Fine with me. Besides you have preferred to understand my comment as an attempt to describe p/p as a perma stealth build that can dps for ages while being invisible and argue about the typical and most efficient fighting style of a p/p hief , while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. > > > Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini. > Stealth as such does not remove anything but gives an advantage to anyone. What you probably mean and what I can agree with, is that draining your whole initiative and then starting a battle before it got reimbursed does not allow to spam 3 unloads in a row. That's obvious and can be said for basically any skill that requires initiative. Stealth does remove things, it removes your ability to cap a node and your ability to do damage to enemies if you want to stay in stealth. And it provides nothing specifically to your team. While you are hiding your team is getting hit. Also more to the point, you claim I told you thief cannot attack from a surprise, which is false. I never once stated a thief cannot catch an opponent by surprise, any class can get any other class by surprise. This is a discussion about P/P thief specifically, and about your opinion that thief is using stealth to ambush unwary opponents with surprise unloads: > @"ilmi.5369" said: > while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. which is also false. Just because it's POSSIBLE, doesn't mean it's IDEAL or even SENSIBLE on the build that would be enacting such a play. Here is a video with vallun playing P/P thief: While, yes, he does stealth regularly, he NEVER ONCE walked up to somebody while he was in stealth and surprise unloaded them. He DID unload a few times from stealth, but ALL of these opponents knew he was there fighting them before he did so, which means the attack was BOTH PREDICTABLE AND AVOIDABLE. The problem is you're confusing POSSIBILITY with something a reasonably skilled P/P thief WILL ACTUALLY DO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Cutter.9376 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"ilmi.5369" said: So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. So you want it to go back to being a worthless joke build, like it was before they gave it those things? Refreshingly honest of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said: > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. > So you want it to go back to being a worthless joke build, like it was before they gave it those things? Refreshingly honest of you. > Yep, once ricochet removed no one used the build at all. They added more damage to unload and no one used it. They added might to Unload and while some few began to use it the build was sill seen as limited as even with that might it was an INI hog and the weak AA could not make up for damage when INI lacking. They then added that INI refund and it became somewhat useable and somehow people think by once again limiting damage done via unload people will continue to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > Heck, just make D/P and S/D as lethal and survivable as Unload, and I'll be happy. That's the true problem for the Thief. Our strongest attack is from range. Not only does it avoid all of the lethal AoE, but it can be done more than once every 4+ seconds. Instead of increasing melee lethality (which should always outdamage ranged skills), Anet decided to drive it into the ground. > > +1 on that. A spammable range skill should not be that powerful compared to its mellee relatives. On my d/p I must use 4 skills in one combo to get comparable burst results and add in a 5th skill in order to stick to my target. > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. > > > > I don't understand. What kind of P/P Thief is sitting somewhere with a full initiative bar waiting to ambush someone from Stealth? And what good does a single Unload do? Why would any decent driver start a race with his gas tank half empty against someone with a full tank? I can understand the frustration if a P/P Thief continuously jumps into Stealth and Unloads every few seconds (had it happen to me when I was S/D)... but that's the exception to the rule. Stealthing with Shortbow is a one-time use thing in a fight, and can only be Unloaded from as an opener. Blinding Powder gives up the Assassin's Signet or a stun breaker. As with everything else with the Thief, Stealth is a trade-off with something else extremely valuable. > > Since you asked: A single unload is enough to bring my own thief on marauder amulet down if it gets me from behind while for example running from mid to capture a side node and while coming with a little less than 100% health. While it is the spammability abuse of this skills that makes it so frustrating, one unload by itself still does hurt enough to bring me in trouble. > Also, I don't want to be misunderstood. I haven't meant that stealth is the best tactic to win a match or it is the pattern of a typical p/p thief. Yes, blinding powder is a trade off. You could swap it against roll for initiative or whatever or you dont slot it. Yes, you would not use cluster bomb stealth in fight but could use it as a prep before moving out for a side node decap in order not to be seen on the way. I find it not at all surprising that you used ANOTHER THIEF as an example of someone you can easily kill rofl. You won't do this against non-thieves. Most non-glass pvp builds will NOT die to a single unload, and if you're glass and you got downed by a single unload - well no shit, you were glass and you got hit by someone else's cannon. Were you expecting to still be standing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > if a glass cannon can counter a tank build then it will by definition autokill anything that isn't a tank > > As it should be a big threat to non-tanks. Just as anything can easily kill a glass cannon. > > > which then begs the question of what run anything that isn't a glass cannon > > Different playstyles. Tanks should be more forgiving to play, slower and more passive. > If the above post is true, and tanks can 1v2, then why play anything other than a tank? Is it better that no one can kill each other? > > I'm not saying a glass cannon should be able to 1-shot a tank. But it should be able to be a heavy threat if not focused on. > > It's just as a Scourge is to a Thief now. Good luck to the Thief if he's playing Dagger or Sword. But good luck to the Scourge if the Thief has Pistols. Builds and counter-builds. Playstyles and counter-playstyles. But there was no point in time before hot/pof were anyone would tell you that in order to not be one shot you need to bring xx skill. So why is it ok now? In the past P/P was countered by retaliation, P/P wouldn't one shot a user with ret nor would ret instantly kill them. But it would discourage 33333. Now retaliation no longer matters, because P/P damage is so high that there won't be enough ret ticks to even be mildly threatening. Reflect has sort of become a scapegoat to justify the absurd damage that P/P does. Every time someone mentions reflect as the answer, it shows me how out of control Unload is with all of the ease of access boons going around and other random traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mechanic.3567 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 PP is hard to counter if you dont see it coming, and/or if you have no dodges and your cool downs are all used. so basically when your already vulnerable. i main a meta thief D/P build, if i can tell a thief is going to spam 3 (unload), i just spam 4 (headshot) and its game over for the P/P thief. if im caught off guard i always have bandits defense with a really low cool down block, and steal will interrupt as well. There are plenty of ways to counter this with a thief. I wont comment on other classes because i am not skilled with them. but i do really enjoy blocking on my warrior and having a full unload reflected back on the thief. .. ......that kitten makes my day. i occasionally die to this build when i play poorly or do not pay attention. i hate dying to it. its the most annoying thing to die to because you know the guy who killed you just presses 3 to win. but that doesn't mean this needs a nerf. im not trying to defend the build, since i kitten hate it, but if you die to it, its probably your own kitten fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > if a glass cannon can counter a tank build then it will by definition autokill anything that isn't a tank > > > > As it should be a big threat to non-tanks. Just as anything can easily kill a glass cannon. > > > > > which then begs the question of what run anything that isn't a glass cannon > > > > Different playstyles. Tanks should be more forgiving to play, slower and more passive. > > If the above post is true, and tanks can 1v2, then why play anything other than a tank? Is it better that no one can kill each other? > > > > I'm not saying a glass cannon should be able to 1-shot a tank. But it should be able to be a heavy threat if not focused on. > > > > It's just as a Scourge is to a Thief now. Good luck to the Thief if he's playing Dagger or Sword. But good luck to the Scourge if the Thief has Pistols. Builds and counter-builds. Playstyles and counter-playstyles. > > But there was no point in time before hot/pof were anyone would tell you that in order to not be one shot you need to bring xx skill. So why is it ok now? > > In the past P/P was countered by retaliation, P/P wouldn't one shot a user with ret nor would ret instantly kill them. But it would discourage 33333. Now retaliation no longer matters, because P/P damage is so high that there won't be enough ret ticks to even be mildly threatening. Reflect has sort of become a scapegoat to justify the absurd damage that P/P does. Every time someone mentions reflect as the answer, it shows me how out of control Unload is with all of the ease of access boons going around and other random traits. > Um, again, you don't HAVE to bring reflect to beat pistols thief. We're telling you to bring it because it AUTOWINS against the build. You can just as easily interrupt, block, or dodge the unloads 2 times and autowin that way as well. But obviously since everyone is whining about the build, they aren't capable of doing that, so we're telling them to bring a reflect. The only thing that's out of control is the fucking whining about a build that isn't good. Even the people complaining about it admit it isn't good, we've literally been arguing about changing it for 5 pages despite everyone agreeing that the build is trash tier. It doesn't even make any fucking sense. In the epic long mesmer thread, everyone admits mesmer is OP and still arguing about whether to change it or not. In this thread everyone admits the build is shit and still arguing whether to change it or not. Life of a goddamn thief, ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 It’s ridiculous to call for Nerfs on things like this while Mesmer continues to go mostly unchecked and any random can smash his face against the keyboard to be a successful scourge. Someone said there is no meta projectile counters... most of those builds have at least one flexible slot where you can easily take a reflect or block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyger.5429 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 So p/p being op is the new meme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmi.5369 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief. > > > > Let me quote you: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > >YOU said thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE > > I said 'up to 10' and not 10+. I did not claim that as the always go to style but as an extreme example that any thief on offhand pistol and short bow can do with shadowstep. I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded). > > > > > I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon. > > Fine with me. Besides you have preferred to understand my comment as an attempt to describe p/p as a perma stealth build that can dps for ages while being invisible and argue about the typical and most efficient fighting style of a p/p hief , while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. > > > > > Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini. > > Stealth as such does not remove anything but gives an advantage to anyone. What you probably mean and what I can agree with, is that draining your whole initiative and then starting a battle before it got reimbursed does not allow to spam 3 unloads in a row. That's obvious and can be said for basically any skill that requires initiative. > > Stealth does remove things, it removes your ability to cap a node and your ability to do damage to enemies if you want to stay in stealth. And it provides nothing specifically to your team. While you are hiding your team is getting hit. > > Also more to the point, you claim I told you thief cannot attack from a surprise, which is false. I never once stated a thief cannot catch an opponent by surprise, any class can get any other class by surprise. This is a discussion about P/P thief specifically, and about your opinion that thief is using stealth to ambush unwary opponents with surprise unloads: > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. > > which is also false. Just because it's POSSIBLE, doesn't mean it's IDEAL or even SENSIBLE on the build that would be enacting such a play. > > Here is a video with vallun playing P/P thief: > > > While, yes, he does stealth regularly, he NEVER ONCE walked up to somebody while he was in stealth and surprise unloaded them. He DID unload a few times from stealth, but ALL of these opponents knew he was there fighting them before he did so, which means the attack was BOTH PREDICTABLE AND AVOIDABLE. > > The problem is you're confusing POSSIBILITY with something a reasonably skilled P/P thief WILL ACTUALLY DO. No, the problem is that you are confusing what you believe people think and experience with what seems to be written in your handbook of skillful p/p play while winding your way through this argument to prove something that does not make a difference. I made some comments about a range build with easy to apply and spammable burst that has access to stealth and can use it to engage or disengage a battle while giving some examples of how a p/p thief has access to stealth and mobility (what you denied inititally - yes, except blinding powder). And from my response you pick what you want to hear to then give a lecture about skilled game play. I have now been shown a video with some p/p deadeye that hops in and out of stealth at will while being able to maintain high burst which ist just proving my point. You are basically saying that stealth, as a battle mechanic, does more harm than good. Sure, a thief should ideally not stealth so that he can face tank a little bit to support his team mates? Ideally also fight on point at all times, to get the node capped. And as if the play in the video would be the only pattern for all p/p thieves out there and if this was a reasonable excuse for having such range burst spam in the game. He is still mawing down these totally "aware" and "unsurprised" foes with ease. If you find that cool, sure why not. Entertaining to watch it sure is. > I find it not at all surprising that you used ANOTHER THIEF as an example of someone you can easily kill rofl. You won't do this against non-thieves. Most non-glass pvp builds will NOT die to a single unload, and if you're glass and you got downed by a single unload - well no kitten, you were glass and you got hit by someone else's cannon. Were you expecting to still be standing? Indeed, that is not at all surprising, as I mentioned my d/p it in one of my first comments so that my perspective should have been clear. What I expect? Maybe that a melee build does more damage than a range build: An attack streak of a melee thief does not down me in a second and usually leaves more time to disengage, reset or fight back. And while it is true that most other classes will not die to a single unload they can sure die to the second one. This imho is slightly overtuned and needs a change (which could also come with a buff on another skill to make it a better build overall). But I already heard your opinion to that, so we don't have to go over it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief. > > > > > > Let me quote you: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times. > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > >YOU said thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE > > > I said 'up to 10' and not 10+. I did not claim that as the always go to style but as an extreme example that any thief on offhand pistol and short bow can do with shadowstep. I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded). > > > > > > > I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon. > > > Fine with me. Besides you have preferred to understand my comment as an attempt to describe p/p as a perma stealth build that can dps for ages while being invisible and argue about the typical and most efficient fighting style of a p/p hief , while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. > > > > > > > Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini. > > > Stealth as such does not remove anything but gives an advantage to anyone. What you probably mean and what I can agree with, is that draining your whole initiative and then starting a battle before it got reimbursed does not allow to spam 3 unloads in a row. That's obvious and can be said for basically any skill that requires initiative. > > > > Stealth does remove things, it removes your ability to cap a node and your ability to do damage to enemies if you want to stay in stealth. And it provides nothing specifically to your team. While you are hiding your team is getting hit. > > > > Also more to the point, you claim I told you thief cannot attack from a surprise, which is false. I never once stated a thief cannot catch an opponent by surprise, any class can get any other class by surprise. This is a discussion about P/P thief specifically, and about your opinion that thief is using stealth to ambush unwary opponents with surprise unloads: > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially. > > > > which is also false. Just because it's POSSIBLE, doesn't mean it's IDEAL or even SENSIBLE on the build that would be enacting such a play. > > > > Here is a video with vallun playing P/P thief: > > > > > > While, yes, he does stealth regularly, he NEVER ONCE walked up to somebody while he was in stealth and surprise unloaded them. He DID unload a few times from stealth, but ALL of these opponents knew he was there fighting them before he did so, which means the attack was BOTH PREDICTABLE AND AVOIDABLE. > > > > The problem is you're confusing POSSIBILITY with something a reasonably skilled P/P thief WILL ACTUALLY DO. > > No, the problem is that you are confusing what you believe people think and experience with what seems to be written in your handbook of skillful p/p play while winding your way through this argument to prove something that does not make a difference. I made some comments about a range build with easy to apply and spammable burst that has access to stealth and can use it to engage or disengage a battle while giving some examples of how a p/p thief has access to stealth and mobility (what you denied inititally - yes, except blinding powder). And from my response you pick what you want to hear to then give a lecture about skilled game play. I have now been shown a video with some p/p deadeye that hops in and out of stealth at will while being able to maintain high burst which ist just proving my point. You are basically saying that stealth, as a battle mechanic, does more harm than good. Sure, a thief should ideally not stealth so that he can face tank a little bit to support his team mates? Ideally also fight on point at all times, to get the node capped. > And as if the play in the video would be the only pattern for all p/p thieves out there and if this was a reasonable excuse for having such range burst spam in the game. He is still mawing down these totally "aware" and "unsurprised" foes with ease. If you find that cool, sure why not. Entertaining to watch it sure is. > > > I find it not at all surprising that you used ANOTHER THIEF as an example of someone you can easily kill rofl. You won't do this against non-thieves. Most non-glass pvp builds will NOT die to a single unload, and if you're glass and you got downed by a single unload - well no kitten, you were glass and you got hit by someone else's cannon. Were you expecting to still be standing? > > Indeed, that is not at all surprising, as I mentioned my d/p it in one of my first comments so that my perspective should have been clear. What I expect? Maybe that a melee build does more damage than a range build: An attack streak of a melee thief does not down me in a second and usually leaves more time to disengage, reset or fight back. And while it is true that most other classes will not die to a single unload they can sure die to the second one. This imho is slightly overtuned and needs a change (which could also come with a buff on another skill to make it a better build overall). But I already heard your opinion to that, so we don't have to go over it again. > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. Let's go back to what we agree with: 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row Here's what we do not agree with so far: 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kageseigi.2150 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > if a glass cannon can counter a tank build then it will by definition autokill anything that isn't a tank > > > > As it should be a big threat to non-tanks. Just as anything can easily kill a glass cannon. > > > > > which then begs the question of what run anything that isn't a glass cannon > > > > Different playstyles. Tanks should be more forgiving to play, slower and more passive. > > If the above post is true, and tanks can 1v2, then why play anything other than a tank? Is it better that no one can kill each other? > > > > I'm not saying a glass cannon should be able to 1-shot a tank. But it should be able to be a heavy threat if not focused on. > > > > It's just as a Scourge is to a Thief now. Good luck to the Thief if he's playing Dagger or Sword. But good luck to the Scourge if the Thief has Pistols. Builds and counter-builds. Playstyles and counter-playstyles. > > But there was no point in time before hot/pof were anyone would tell you that in order to not be one shot you need to bring xx skill. So why is it ok now? > > In the past P/P was countered by retaliation, P/P wouldn't one shot a user with ret nor would ret instantly kill them. But it would discourage 33333. Now retaliation no longer matters, because P/P damage is so high that there won't be enough ret ticks to even be mildly threatening. Reflect has sort of become a scapegoat to justify the absurd damage that P/P does. Every time someone mentions reflect as the answer, it shows me how out of control Unload is with all of the ease of access boons going around and other random traits. Hmm, not quite sure where I mentioned anything about reflects or certain skills being required, though I will say this... I am completely fine with Unload losing its damage output if, and ONLY IF, the Dagger and Sword receive it in return. Between the different weapon sets, the risk/reward ratio is completely out of balance. Dagger and Sword both require melee distance which is extremely high risk for fragile Thieves, yet their reward for committing to such is very low when compared to a Pistol/Pistol Thief who deals a lot of damage from relative safety at range. Other than that, I'm kind of curious to know what non-Thief builds out there actually get one-shot by Thieves. I don't believe I've ever one-shot anything outside of another Thief... when I was using a trapper/signet Berserker build. And even then, I emptied all of my utilities to set it up and ambushed from Stealth... got a 17.8k Backstab... he had no clue what hit him. But that build only works for one attack from complete surprise when the planets align, and has absolutely no fighting potential outside of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > I am completely fine with Unload losing its damage output if, and ONLY IF, the Dagger and Sword receive it in return. Why would you want dagger and sword to receive the damage? That is the problem with the game, damage is TOO HIGH. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbes.3620 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Lets make this easy: - just decrease the Damage of Thiefs in General by 50% - Disable em from being able to stealth - Reduce core health it's far too high - Cuz thiefs are supposed to be squishy .. reduce armor by 50% - remove initiative - add 10 second cooldowns on all weapon skills - remove the ability to stun (completly .. 1/4 secon stuns are WAY TOO LONG) - no teleports .. thats completly Coward - no range wepons also .. cuz only ranger or engeneer makes sense on range.. oh and Guardians or warrior revenent elementalist mesmer ofcourse - alternate the armor viability and make em able only to wear Clown costumes - i think with that the Problems would be cleared and thief would finally be balanced an the whining stops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilli.2976 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 discuss ALL you want suggest ALL you want - your opinion or suggestions are pointless and if and it will get nerfed you won't see this for another 3+ months or maybe longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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