TexZero.7910 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > Yeah, but you were screaming about people wanting to log in have all characters in legendary armor automatically and a kitten load of gems... for free. That is why I said you were taking it to the extreme. No one said that... > People no. A certain individual who has such an extreme position that it may as well be a handout, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > People no. A certain individual who has such an extreme position that it may as well be a handout, yes. Even Ohoni isn't asking for that. It's just some people i won't name that keep equating any and every effort that is not raids to logging in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >You have to understand that some players (most?) are driven by rewards and since raids are hardest content reward should also be best. > > Only if it doesn't prevent players who don't want to do that content from getting those rewards. Raiders are not entitled to superior rewards. > Every gamemode has a right for their one exclusive rewards, doesn't matter if it's raids, fractals, conquest,WvW etc. Altough this is probably a point we can never agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > People no. A certain individual who has such an extreme position that it may as well be a handout, yes. > Even Ohoni isn't asking for that. It's just some people i won't name that keep equating any and every effort that is not raids to logging in. You sure about that ? > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I just want to earn it from a gameplay mode that I enjoy more than the current raids. Considering he want's it from modes he enjoys....It's safe to say his boundaries could quite easily be stretched to just existing. I mean what's to stop his logic from being applied by anyone else ? What if i just want to log-in and collect Legendary via mail is that okay too ? Should i come into every thread and spread such a fantasy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogri.1935 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Can you imagine what a nightmare a raid quickjoin would be? I think I'd rather try my luck at ecto gambling Unless they actually do overhaul the system, not by making different difficulty levels or making it easier, but maybe some sort of rank that players get based on something like what %HP you've gotten the boss down to, and when you've cleared the boss, what is the best clear time. That way you'll be matched with people who will likely be of similar experience/skill level as yourself. There will need to be a different ranking for each boss though. And possibly for each character on a person's account. They could possibly extend the same system to fractals and dungeons. I have a feeling that it's not technically possible for GW2 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. > > The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. Ok wait, hold on, Zealex brought up the same point, however no complained about raids being sold to people though, that Legendary armor that can be obtain by no effort, with just a simple credit card transaction or someone who hoards gold. Why aren’t you up in arms about that “the mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort...” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. > > The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. Nah doing daily 10 ap for 7 months straight requires alot of effort and should be as rewarding as raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 19, 2018 Author Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. > > > > The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. > > Ok wait, hold on, Zealex brought up the same point, however no complained about raids being sold to people though, that Legendary armor that can be obtain by no effort, with just a simple credit card transaction or someone who hoards gold. Why aren’t you up in arms about that “the mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort...” I mentioned this as well, nobody seems to acknowledge the elephant in the room or seem to care while making arguments directly counter to the fact that people can buy legendary armor outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > > > > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > > > > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. > > > > > > The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. > > > > Ok wait, hold on, Zealex brought up the same point, however no complained about raids being sold to people though, that Legendary armor that can be obtain by no effort, with just a simple credit card transaction or someone who hoards gold. Why aren’t you up in arms about that “the mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort...” > > I mentioned this as well, nobody seems to acknowledge the elephant in the room or seem to care while making arguments directly counter to the fact that people can buy legendary armor outright. Do you know how much gold raidselling cost? Because i guess its not that cheap. I am against raidselling but i guess raidselling is more on tgan easymode for legendary because the amount of gold whole set wiuld cost you is enormous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > People no. A certain individual who has such an extreme position that it may as well be a handout, yes. > > Even Ohoni isn't asking for that. It's just some people i won't name that keep equating any and every effort that is not raids to logging in. > > You sure about that ? > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > I just want to earn it from a gameplay mode that I enjoy more than the current raids. > Considering he want's it from modes he enjoys....It's safe to say his boundaries could quite easily be stretched to just existing. > I mean what's to stop his logic from being applied by anyone else ? Nope, that's an extreme case of a slippery slope fallacy. _Noone_ is asking for that. Legendaries as login rewards is just a fake argument used by some raiders, nothing more. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > What if i just want to log-in and collect Legendary via mail is that okay too ? Should i come into every thread and spread such a fantasy ? Please, go ahead. As long as you would be honestly wanting it and not trolling, of course. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Do you know how much gold raidselling cost? Because i guess its not that cheap. So? Getting gold is not difficult, it's only the amount that might be a problem, so we're talking not about difficulty, but about time. If the only thing that matters is how easy the activity is, and how long repeating it would take is irrelevant, then it doesn't matter if buying raid set would costs 10 gold, 1000 or 20k. The mere fact that it can be bought greatly devalues it. Probably more than a potential easy mode path, because,even if it would be dungeon level difficulty, Palawaloot is still easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > People no. A certain individual who has such an extreme position that it may as well be a handout, yes. > > > Even Ohoni isn't asking for that. It's just some people i won't name that keep equating any and every effort that is not raids to logging in. > > > > You sure about that ? > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > I just want to earn it from a gameplay mode that I enjoy more than the current raids. > > Considering he want's it from modes he enjoys....It's safe to say his boundaries could quite easily be stretched to just existing. > > I mean what's to stop his logic from being applied by anyone else ? > Nope, that's an extreme case of a slippery slope fallacy. _Noone_ is asking for that. Legendaries as login rewards is just a fake argument used by some raiders, nothing more. > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > What if i just want to log-in and collect Legendary via mail is that okay too ? Should i come into every thread and spread such a fantasy ? > Please, go ahead. As long as you would be honestly wanting it and not trolling, of course. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Do you know how much gold raidselling cost? Because i guess its not that cheap. > So? Getting gold is not difficult, it's only the amount that might be a problem, so we're talking not about difficulty, but about time. If the only thing that matters is how easy the activity is, and how long repeating it would take is irrelevant, then it doesn't matter if buying raid set would costs 10 gold, 1000 or 20k. The mere fact that it can be bought greatly devalues it. Probably more than a potential easy mode path, because,even if it would be dungeon level difficulty, Palawaloot is still easier. > Yes, this is what I was getting at. It takes even less if you simply buy it with gems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 19, 2018 Author Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > > > > > > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > > > > > > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. > > > > > > > > The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. > > > > > > Ok wait, hold on, Zealex brought up the same point, however no complained about raids being sold to people though, that Legendary armor that can be obtain by no effort, with just a simple credit card transaction or someone who hoards gold. Why aren’t you up in arms about that “the mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort...” > > > > I mentioned this as well, nobody seems to acknowledge the elephant in the room or seem to care while making arguments directly counter to the fact that people can buy legendary armor outright. > > Do you know how much gold raidselling cost? Because i guess its not that cheap. I am against raidselling but i guess raidselling is more on tgan easymode for legendary because the amount of gold whole set wiuld cost you is enormous Yah like 500-600 gold for full clear. Not very much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutra.6857 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it though? If easy mode raids had half the rewards you are looking at double the amount of time if not more. Again if it was one Legendary insight per wing you would be looking at 7 months of grinding it out. I would imagine that some people would be happy grinding it out, while others may want to get to that goal faster, gain experience, confidence and then try it normal mode for even faster results. > > > > > > > > > > The time it takes is not important. The mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort greatly devalues it since it is supposed to be the highest reward in question. It simply ceases to work like one, as seeing one now tells you nothing. Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. > > > > > > > > Ok wait, hold on, Zealex brought up the same point, however no complained about raids being sold to people though, that Legendary armor that can be obtain by no effort, with just a simple credit card transaction or someone who hoards gold. Why aren’t you up in arms about that “the mere fact that you *can* obtain it with basically no effort...” > > > > > > I mentioned this as well, nobody seems to acknowledge the elephant in the room or seem to care while making arguments directly counter to the fact that people can buy legendary armor outright. > > > > Do you know how much gold raidselling cost? Because i guess its not that cheap. I am against raidselling but i guess raidselling is more on tgan easymode for legendary because the amount of gold whole set wiuld cost you is enormous > > Yah like 500-600 gold for full clear. Not very much money. That means you get 3 LI, and that is for a non achievement run. Now multiply that by the at least 50 runs you need to get enough LI for the full set of legendary. Also add the amount you need to do the achievement part, and some of those achievements are rather difficult to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > People no. A certain individual who has such an extreme position that it may as well be a handout, yes. > > > Even Ohoni isn't asking for that. It's just some people i won't name that keep equating any and every effort that is not raids to logging in. > > > > You sure about that ? > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > I just want to earn it from a gameplay mode that I enjoy more than the current raids. > > Considering he want's it from modes he enjoys....It's safe to say his boundaries could quite easily be stretched to just existing. > > I mean what's to stop his logic from being applied by anyone else ? > Nope, that's an extreme case of a slippery slope fallacy. _Noone_ is asking for that. Legendaries as login rewards is just a fake argument used by some raiders, nothing more. Im well aware it's a slippery slope hence the point. Why is he the only person asking for such an extreme change to not earn rewards via raids allowed to have his way. I'm sure i can find you a much more carefree person whom would love to have all the "unique gear" in the game handed to them. Is that okay with you, because if it's not than neither should his extreme position of catering the game specifically to his greedy design. The design of raids and their rewards are done in such a manner as to reward groups of players for overcoming specific challenges. The unique items are carrots however, this is not the only mode of play with its unique loot. A brief glance can show you that Fractals, WvW and PvP all have unique gear only acquired through said content. As further evidenced by unique itemsets being required to have you stay in specific zone like Luminescent Armor, Bladed Armor, Auric Backpack etc .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Neutra.6857" said: > That means you get 3 LI, and that is for a non achievement run. Now multiply that by the at least 50 runs you need to get enough LI for the full set of legendary. Also add the amount you need to do the achievement part, and some of those achievements are rather difficult to get. Yep, full cost currently is around 17k for the first armor (that's 150 LI and all of the achieves) according to the pricing of a few big raid-selling guilds. That's like 2 years of doing SW RIBA farming for a hour each day (and even shorter if you go the way of Palawaloot+GH instead, or and/or spend more than 1 hour per day on it). That's at most 2 years of doing activity whose difficulty is practically limited to one thing: finding a squad. I really doubt any easy mode (even one designed by Ohoni) could ever be _that_ easy. Which means that (if the difficulty is the only point), it's simply not possible to devalue raid legendary armor by giving it an easy mode path. Because (still, following that original line of thought) legendary armor to be devalued from that spot would have to be literally offered through log-in rewards. Now, we both know that it _is_ bunk. Which can only mean one thing - time _does_ matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackheartgary.8605 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 grrrr.... okay... i think I can settle this debate. for one thing, i agree with the majority here. raids are supposed to be challenging group content, but are rather easy to do, theoretically. creating a "easy mode" for raids, is like putting training wheels on a car. for starters, the car works just fine on it's own, and training wheels are not needed. secondly, that same car, if used, has already been driven by someone else just fine, and if new has been driven at least once by someone who put it in the lot, therefore making it completely necessary to put an easy mode on the car. if we can't do it for a car, then we cannot do it for raids. my rationale? for starters, raids are considered end-game content... meaning that by end-game, you should already be aware of the capabilities of your class, what it can and cannot do, and how it can or cannot contribute in a group fight(there are several in the world... world bosses for example). by level 80, you have probably bounced around on several manifestations of what you think works for your class, and as such could very well determine whether you are geared more for a support role, dps, conditions, etc. that being said... I know for a fact that in today's game people have instant 80's and haven't the foggiest on how their class works. when i teach new players, i often suggest that they hold on to that level 80 booster and learn at least one class from start to finish(it's always about the journey). However, a lot of people will go for that level 80 booster to play the xpacs, living world episodes, pvp/wvw/fractals etc... and yes, they will look for the raids, yet have little, if any, how their class actually works. that's a shame. there are TONS, and i mean TONS of videos, twitch streamers, websites, build sites, guides, how-to's, etc on what to do with your class in gw2. also, if you announce on a random map that you are interested in working on strengthening your class, someone will no doubt pipe up and listen. However... when it comes to raids... a raid group is like a well maintained car. a bunch of moving parts that, when properly taken care of, will perform and produce results every time. like with any group content, each player in that raid group assumes a specific role, and before the raid begins, each team attempts to go over who is going to be doing what... especially when it is a teaching guild. does this make it an all exclusive elitist thing? NO. what it does, is it takes your abilities into factor and places you with a task so that the team collectively scores a win. does that make it challenging? definately. I can't even get one person(my daughter) to organize a movie night with me once per week without some form of conflict(she's busy playing gw2), let alone organizing 10 prople to coordinate their abilities in a team-based strategic assault on a virtual boss with specific game mechanics. so yes... it is challenging. BUT, it's not the most difficult thing to do in this game. on the other side of this coin... you do have the inexperienced player wanting to get into raids, consistently seeing the LFG ads for "experienced raiders only" and of course they are going to get frustrated. if you were told that the only way you will ever ride a Ducati motorbike was that you had 10 years racing experience, you'd never buy that darn bike. you'd try your best to get that experience so you could, but by the time you get there you are so frustrated because of all the hoops you had to jump through that the ducati isn't worth it. I hear this from a lot of players... and to them, i say... it's okay, but never give up and start flaming raid groups or calling them elitists. yes it can be a pain, but at the same time, you are in the driver's seat of your own game... if you want that raid, put an lfg up and ask for help learning the raid. watch some vids, work on your build, and find a guild that isn't afraid to put you through the wringer but in a nice way. at the same time, we as a community need to understand that yes, there are people wanting to learn the raids, the rotations, etc, and not be so quick to push them away because we have a better way of doing things. REMEMBER.... we were ALL new once. in short, Raiding does not need an easy mode. but it also does not need to be a barrier to your success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Neutra.6857" said: > > That means you get 3 LI, and that is for a non achievement run. Now multiply that by the at least 50 runs you need to get enough LI for the full set of legendary. Also add the amount you need to do the achievement part, and some of those achievements are rather difficult to get. > Yep, full cost currently is around 17k for the first armor (that's 150 LI and all of the achieves) according to the pricing of a few big raid-selling guilds. That's like 2 years of doing SW RIBA farming for a hour each day (and even shorter if you go the way of Palawaloot+GH instead, or and/or spend more than 1 hour per day on it). That's at most 2 years of doing activity whose difficulty is practically limited to one thing: finding a squad. > I really doubt any easy mode (even one designed by Ohoni) could ever be _that_ easy. Which means that (if the difficulty is the only point), it's simply not possible to devalue raid legendary armor by giving it an easy mode path. Because (still, following that original line of thought) legendary armor to be devalued from that spot would have to be literally offered through log-in rewards. > Now, we both know that it _is_ bunk. Which can only mean one thing - time _does_ matter. It’s essentially it’s 750 dollars us, if you want the legendary armor without using in game gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 7 easy payments of 107.00 and you too, can be Legendary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 If its so easy to get the gold to buy full set of armor, everyone here asking for easy mode should just buy it and be done with it. I rather have these 5 people that keep asking for easy mode just go and buy raids from sellers instead of wasting anet time developing a easy mode. Its easy to farm 17k gold right, just do it and leave the forums in peace, unless of course the forums is so much fun that is not about getting easy mode anymore, you guys just enjoy posting in this forum arguing about the same thing for many months. Wish Gaile Gray would come and close all the threads asking for raid easy mode like she did with the "In-House DPS Meter" and "Request for world 3 and 4" threads, that in my opinion the in-house dps meter would be a much better feature to use development time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >It's only a design philosophy found everywhere in the game. You want Auric weapons? You grind Auric Basin for the Auric Ingots. You want Luminescent Armor? You grind Silverwastes. You want Aurora? You do LS3 maps. Apples and oranges. You're talking about "grind" there, about players *completing* relatively simple activities multiple times. That element would still be in place, at least in the case of easy mode raids. The difference between the current raids and *all* those examples you list is that those events can be completed by almost any player almost every time, which is not *currently* the case with raids. All we're trying to do here is bring raids *in line with* your own examples, not to make them more of an exception. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > If you made them easier to get -> less time/effort to get them. No, the time and effort would be maintained, just not the challenge factor. >Without the time you have to do something specific you can just play the game and one day you have it. It would still take many, many months to earn, even with an easy mode. Any talk of "you could just get it in a day" or "instant gratification" is just nonsense talk completely out of touch with anything anyone is saying here. >I dont read minds and i dont know you but have you ever done something for others and get nothing from it? Most people do. The real heroes (which I am not) are those that give many hours of their own life to the service of others, and as I say, I wouldn't go that far, but there have been plenty of cases where I've donated to worthy causes, or given my time to help people through a problem where I really had no benefit from doing so. I think on balance that I'm much more self-interested than most, I try to be better about that as best I can, but the average person benefits others every day in some way, with no expectations of reward. Without that aspect, human society would have crumbled millennia ago. >Btw doesnt wvw also have legendary armor? If so isnt legendary armor accesable to you even when you dont play raids? It doesn't have the skins. In terms of Legendary armor specifically, I am *only* interested in the skins, and I would prefer a purely PvE method of acquiring it, not WvW, not PvP, not Raid. I engaged in PvP just long enough to get The Ascension, and I hated the entire experience and would not care to repeat it. Guild Wars 2 can provide better than that. >But you cannot get Ad Infinitum nor ascended boxes in T1. And that is also an issue, one that I would support anyone pushing to change it, but it is not one that I personally invest time in. > @"Cynn.1659" said: > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. Exactly. That's why if they ever do commit to another raid mode, it needs at bare minimum to provide enough reward to keep it *balanced* verses other content options, to offer enough that it is a *fair* competitor for their time with other activities in the game, so that they are likely to repeat it. Making the content to offer "junk" rewards that would not compel a repeat visit would be a waste of development effort. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. Again, *literally* **nobody** is saying that. > @"TexZero.7910" said: >Considering he want's it from modes he enjoys....It's safe to say his boundaries could quite easily be stretched to just existing. I mean what's to stop his logic from being applied by anyone else ? Reductio ad abserdum. I have never advocated such a position, so it's unreasonable to assume it. I've noted this in the past, my belief is that *this game* presents a certain difficulty baseline. Most content in the game is within a margin of error of this baseline. If you cannot complete content of this baseline, then you have no reasonable expectation of reward, but if you *can,* then I don't believe any rewards in the game should require performance above that baseline. I believe this should be true for all games, if a game was *mostly* super hardcore difficult, then players should have no expectation of getting anything for less than hardcore efforts. If a game is *mostly* just log-in rewards, then players should reasonably expect access to anything the game has to offer for zero effort. For a game like GW2, which presents *most* content at a difficulty level that raiders seem to regard as "fairly casual," that level of skill should be the benchmark for access to *anything* the game has to offer. The solution to *any* slippery slope argument, by the way, is to not make one. >I'm sure i can find you a much more carefree person whom would love to have all the "unique gear" in the game handed to them. Is that okay with you, because if it's not than neither should his extreme position of catering the game specifically to his greedy design. Perhaps save your counterarguments to that until someone actually *makes* the argument in question? > @"Feanor.2358" said: >Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. That point is moot, as a player can *already* obtain the armor merely by logging in every week and handing a raider some gold. The situation proposed would involve *more* player skill and engagement than the existing options require. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > It’s essentially it’s 750 dollars us, if you want the legendary armor without using in game gold. Honestly? While I'm ideologically opposed to raid-buying and so would never do such a thing on principle, that's really a bargain compared to the suffering of having to actually play the raids in their current form. And it would be a drop in the bucket compared to what people spend in Fate right now. I mean tons of people spent twice that rolling for Jalter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I have never advocated such a position, so it's unreasonable to assume it. Do i have to quote you again ? > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I just want to earn it from a gameplay mode that I enjoy more than the current raids. That is an unreasonable position based on gameplay design. But i'll humor this...I want an honest answer. Are you able to complete T4 Fractals and CM ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said: > If its so easy to get the gold to buy full set of armor, everyone here asking for easy mode should just buy it and be done with it. > I rather have these 5 people that keep asking for easy mode just go and buy raids from sellers instead of wasting anet time developing a easy mode. > Its easy to farm 17k gold right, just do it and leave the forums in peace, unless of course the forums is so much fun that is not about getting easy mode anymore, you guys just enjoy posting in this forum arguing about the same thing for many months. > > Wish Gaile Gray would come and close all the threads asking for raid easy mode like she did with the "In-House DPS Meter" and "Request for world 3 and 4" threads, that in my opinion the in-house dps meter would be a much better feature to use development time. > You don’t have to answer or be like majority of gw2 players and ignore the forums all together. We have concerns and are voicing them. Why is that so wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >It's only a design philosophy found everywhere in the game. You want Auric weapons? You grind Auric Basin for the Auric Ingots. You want Luminescent Armor? You grind Silverwastes. You want Aurora? You do LS3 maps. > > Apples and oranges. You're talking about "grind" there, about players *completing* relatively simple activities multiple times. That element would still be in place, at least in the case of easy mode raids. The difference between the current raids and *all* those examples you list is that those events can be completed by almost any player almost every time, which is not *currently* the case with raids. All we're trying to do here is bring raids *in line with* your own examples, not to make them more of an exception. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > If you made them easier to get -> less time/effort to get them. > > No, the time and effort would be maintained, just not the challenge factor. > > >Without the time you have to do something specific you can just play the game and one day you have it. > > It would still take many, many months to earn, even with an easy mode. Any talk of "you could just get it in a day" or "instant gratification" is just nonsense talk completely out of touch with anything anyone is saying here. > > >I dont read minds and i dont know you but have you ever done something for others and get nothing from it? > > Most people do. The real heroes (which I am not) are those that give many hours of their own life to the service of others, and as I say, I wouldn't go that far, but there have been plenty of cases where I've donated to worthy causes, or given my time to help people through a problem where I really had no benefit from doing so. I think on balance that I'm much more self-interested than most, I try to be better about that as best I can, but the average person benefits others every day in some way, with no expectations of reward. Without that aspect, human society would have crumbled millennia ago. > > >Btw doesnt wvw also have legendary armor? If so isnt legendary armor accesable to you even when you dont play raids? > > It doesn't have the skins. In terms of Legendary armor specifically, I am *only* interested in the skins, and I would prefer a purely PvE method of acquiring it, not WvW, not PvP, not Raid. I engaged in PvP just long enough to get The Ascension, and I hated the entire experience and would not care to repeat it. Guild Wars 2 can provide better than that. > > >But you cannot get Ad Infinitum nor ascended boxes in T1. > > And that is also an issue, one that I would support anyone pushing to change it, but it is not one that I personally invest time in. > > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > Exactly. That's why if they ever do commit to another raid mode, it needs at bare minimum to provide enough reward to keep it *balanced* verses other content options, to offer enough that it is a *fair* competitor for their time with other activities in the game, so that they are likely to repeat it. Making the content to offer "junk" rewards that would not compel a repeat visit would be a waste of development effort. > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > Again, *literally* **nobody** is saying that. > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > >Considering he want's it from modes he enjoys....It's safe to say his boundaries could quite easily be stretched to just existing. > I mean what's to stop his logic from being applied by anyone else ? > > Reductio ad abserdum. > > I have never advocated such a position, so it's unreasonable to assume it. I've noted this in the past, my belief is that *this game* presents a certain difficulty baseline. Most content in the game is within a margin of error of this baseline. If you cannot complete content of this baseline, then you have no reasonable expectation of reward, but if you *can,* then I don't believe any rewards in the game should require performance above that baseline. > > I believe this should be true for all games, if a game was *mostly* super hardcore difficult, then players should have no expectation of getting anything for less than hardcore efforts. If a game is *mostly* just log-in rewards, then players should reasonably expect access to anything the game has to offer for zero effort. For a game like GW2, which presents *most* content at a difficulty level that raiders seem to regard as "fairly casual," that level of skill should be the benchmark for access to *anything* the game has to offer. > > The solution to *any* slippery slope argument, by the way, is to not make one. > > >I'm sure i can find you a much more carefree person whom would love to have all the "unique gear" in the game handed to them. Is that okay with you, because if it's not than neither should his extreme position of catering the game specifically to his greedy design. > > Perhaps save your counterarguments to that until someone actually *makes* the argument in question? > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >Maybe the player in question was an active raider, or maybe he just grinded some meaningless instances for months. The effort is vastly different, you can't reward it in the same way. It just doesn't work. > > That point is moot, as a player can *already* obtain the armor merely by logging in every week and handing a raider some gold. The situation proposed would involve *more* player skill and engagement than the existing options require. > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > It’s essentially it’s 750 dollars us, if you want the legendary armor without using in game gold. > > Honestly? While I'm ideologically opposed to raid-buying and so would never do such a thing on principle, that's really a bargain compared to the suffering of having to actually play the raids in their current form. And it would be a drop in the bucket compared to what people spend in Fate right now. I mean tons of people spent twice that rolling for Jalter. And it’s not considering any gold that you might have stored up or gems you already have, so it could be cheaper, you could spend 100.00 a month for seven months. Which is strangely similar to my Legendary insight idea, go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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