Please Overhaul Raids.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > Hard-Lock would mean you can never access it. And this is just plain wrong. It just denies you the access to certain groups, not raids in general.

>

> It is an almost hard-lock. The majority of groups and raid-guilds have LI/KP-requirements. I already stated that it's understandable why that's the case (the games main-content is too easy, thus people don't learn to carry their own weight. That way though, it's unreasonably hard to simply create an own squad/static, since - having LI/KP as skill-indicator - these will also reflect on that matter. If you want to enjoy the content reasonably, you're in fact hard-locked by the combination of the aforementioned design-choices.

>

No not almost. Just from the faster groups.

Completely subjective. We can rephrase the last sentence. _If you want to enjoy the game on your terms you are hard-locked._

> > Most guilds need more than 1-3 tries to kill bosses the first time. Yes you need more tries unless you want to get carried. Bit cocky?

>

> Cocky? Certainly not. Self-confident? Yes. Like I've said multiple times, I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now. A lot of pve-mechanisms are quite recurring throughout every MMORPG. GW2 certainly hasn't re-invented the wheel and is nothing special in that regard. It's far from being a second Wildstar. Additionaly, I'm "only" playing a dps-class, so the balance-problem in also a factor. A dps-class has it rather easy in raids since most mechanics are handled by Chrono and Druid. Do I like that design-choice? No, I don't. I'd wish that the burded would be equally contributed. It isn't though. I don't need that much tries to internalize mechanics and do reasonable decent damage, being able to carry my own weight. GW2 certainly has a huge glorifying- and self-confidence-problems when it comes to raids.

>

So fake KP/LI and join groups?

> > Legendary armor is also available in PvP and WvW.

>

> WvW is (also by game-design) as niche as raids and not everyone likes PvP. PvE is the main-content of GW2, thus it should be possible for everyone to get legendary armor through PvE. It's ok that that requires some skill. It's not ok that the content which holds legendary armor is largely inaccessible for the majority of people. Game-design-wise, that isn't really a good thing.

>

Everything that is not open world is niche content. Why should it be possible?

> > No they don't. Especially not in WoW where you are already overgeared if you played between two raids, thanks to titanforged.

>

> Sure, WoW is the genres behemoth, but it's also just a dime in a dozen. So please stop only using WoW as an example. There are other games that are a lot more coherent and consistent in game-design.

>

Maybe bring examples?...

> > Molten Boss, Swamp changes. New rewards. Instability changes. We got actually 4 fractals not 3. There were multiple balance changes in different difficulties (but easy mode doesn't take time for balancing, right?) and as many said, difficulty scales are content so we actually got 16 fractals!

>

> That's some logic you have there. By that logic, W5 alone would consist of six raids (four encounters and two cms). Fact is that raids are actually quite favored by ANet. You have a sh*tload of lore, special skins, miniatures, legendary armor, the legendary ring, etc. locked behind raids. They're also a lot more massive than a single fractal. Raids are also fairly self-sufficient since you do get gold and gear out of them. You even get PoF-stats from HoT-items, which is quite a strong inconsistency compared to the rest of the game. You also seem to forget that raids are niche-content by intention.

>

>

 

Ah you finally reached the point. Yes GW2 is not raid focused, so they either slow the development for raids down to implement things like easy mode or they focus more on raids. The lore is available through living story. The head of the snake provides more information on the characters in the raid than the raid itself. You only get PoF stats from Wing 1-4 items when you actually have PoF. Same for fractals. Every game mode has it own skins, not an argument.

I never said difficulty scales are content. But other people said it.

>Why should ANet focus more on raids when content like fractals should be more important since more people do fractals on a daily basis?

This is a very important question and if you ask this to yourself you could see why many people here are against an easy mode because this would imply it.

 

[Tyson.5160]

More people playing raids = more resources = more raids...

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

>Do i have to quote you again ?

 

I'm not denying the quote, I'm denying when you dialed what I actually said up to 11 in your analysis. I want easier raids, I do NOT want "effortless" raids. I do not advoate for a difficulty level *below* the baseline difficulty of the rest of the game.

 

>But i'll humor this...I want an honest answer.

>Are you able to complete T4 Fractals and CM ?

 

No clue. I haven't participated in them because of the required investment in AR to even attempt it. I kind of doubt that I could, at least as not as easily as I expect from an easy mode raid, but then T4 content is well above the game's baseline as well.

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> >Do i have to quote you again ?

>

> I'm not denying the quote, I'm denying when you dialed what I actually said up to 11 in your analysis. I want easier raids, I do NOT want "effortless" raids. I do not advoate for a difficulty level *below* the baseline difficulty of the rest of the game.

>

> >But i'll humor this...I want an honest answer.

> >Are you able to complete T4 Fractals and CM ?

>

> No clue. I haven't participated in them because of the required investment in AR to even attempt it. I kind of doubt that I could, at least as not as easily as I expect from an easy mode raid, but then T4 content is well above the game's baseline as well.

>

>

 

No. I want you to read that quote again....Seriously, read it.

You want to "earn" it from a mode you find more enjoyable.

 

Now then what's to stop this exact logic being used from being applied to something that's below what you find "enjoyable" or are you the soul arbiter of all things enjoyment related ?

 

What if Bob derives all their enjoyment from RP'ing as a bartender in the Salma district, should he get to earn legendary armor for it ?

 

It's an unreasonable request from a greedy player, who doesn't value the gameplay experience and thinks this themepark MMO has to adhere to a singular difficulty.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

>No. I want you to read that quote again....Seriously, read it.

>You want to "earn" it from a mode you find more enjoyable.

 

Yes, I do.

 

>Now then what's to stop this exact logic being used from being applied to something that's below what you find "enjoyable" or are you the soul arbiter of all things enjoyment related ?

 

Again, I fully expect that if someone is playing Guild Wars 2, then they should find "Guild Wars 2" to be "enjoyable." People played GW2 for three years before raids were added, raids and their failure rate are not a part of what GW2 once was. I believe that they should offer *more* options, but that does not mean that they need to offer *infinite* options. They should make it *more* likely that at least one of the options available is *close* to what most players would enjoy, but obviously they can't guarantee that it would be an exact fit. I imagine that I'll still have minor quibbles with whatever mode they came out with, but hopefully *on balance* it would be much better than the only option currently available. Just as they present a PvP and a WvW option for players that prefer those modes, they should present a general PvE option for those that prefer that.

 

I am presenting a reasonable argument here, and the best response you can come back with is "yesssss. . . but what if *instead* you were to be *un*reasonable?"

 

 

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> > If its so easy to get the gold to buy full set of armor, everyone here asking for easy mode should just buy it and be done with it.

> > I rather have these 5 people that keep asking for easy mode just go and buy raids from sellers instead of wasting anet time developing a easy mode.

> > Its easy to farm 17k gold right, just do it and leave the forums in peace, unless of course the forums is so much fun that is not about getting easy mode anymore, you guys just enjoy posting in this forum arguing about the same thing for many months.

> >

> > Wish Gaile Gray would come and close all the threads asking for raid easy mode like she did with the "In-House DPS Meter" and "Request for world 3 and 4" threads, that in my opinion the in-house dps meter would be a much better feature to use development time.

> >

> You don’t have to answer or be like majority of gw2 players and ignore the forums all together. We have concerns and are voicing them. Why is that so wrong?

>

I believe it's partially because of how it's being done. Take the title of this thread for instance, demanding that the whole thing be overhauled just because the op doesn't like it, and their explanation as to why, points to the fact that the lfg does not work for them, or that they can't find 9 other people that they like playing with. Rather than asking for opinions on how the lfg could be improved, they use a tone that sounds like a demand that it, and what it is used for (raids in this instance), be overhauled. Additionally, from what I've been reading, people aren't so much looking for a middle ground to meet, as they are digging themselves in their positions and demanding others to proclaim that they are right.

 

tldr: Most people don't know how to effectively communicate.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Neutra.6857" said:

> > That means you get 3 LI, and that is for a non achievement run. Now multiply that by the at least 50 runs you need to get enough LI for the full set of legendary. Also add the amount you need to do the achievement part, and some of those achievements are rather difficult to get.

> Yep, full cost currently is around 17k for the first armor (that's 150 LI and all of the achieves) according to the pricing of a few big raid-selling guilds. That's like 2 years of doing SW RIBA farming for a hour each day (and even shorter if you go the way of Palawaloot+GH instead, or and/or spend more than 1 hour per day on it). That's at most 2 years of doing activity whose difficulty is practically limited to one thing: finding a squad.

> I really doubt any easy mode (even one designed by Ohoni) could ever be _that_ easy. Which means that (if the difficulty is the only point), it's simply not possible to devalue raid legendary armor by giving it an easy mode path. Because (still, following that original line of thought) legendary armor to be devalued from that spot would have to be literally offered through log-in rewards.

> Now, we both know that it _is_ bunk. Which can only mean one thing - time _does_ matter.

 

Well if its that easy, why dont the guy do it?

Simply they dont want to wait 2 years to get it.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Additionally, from what I've been reading, people aren't so much looking for a middle ground to meet, as they are digging themselves in their positions and demanding others to proclaim that they are right.

 

Agreed, this is why I just cut the nonsense and start from a middleground position. The problem is that the raider crowd seems completely uninterested in budging even an inch.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> > > If its so easy to get the gold to buy full set of armor, everyone here asking for easy mode should just buy it and be done with it.

> > > I rather have these 5 people that keep asking for easy mode just go and buy raids from sellers instead of wasting anet time developing a easy mode.

> > > Its easy to farm 17k gold right, just do it and leave the forums in peace, unless of course the forums is so much fun that is not about getting easy mode anymore, you guys just enjoy posting in this forum arguing about the same thing for many months.

> > >

> > > Wish Gaile Gray would come and close all the threads asking for raid easy mode like she did with the "In-House DPS Meter" and "Request for world 3 and 4" threads, that in my opinion the in-house dps meter would be a much better feature to use development time.

> > >

> > You don’t have to answer or be like majority of gw2 players and ignore the forums all together. We have concerns and are voicing them. Why is that so wrong?

> >

> I believe it's partially because of how it's being done. Take the title of this thread for instance, demanding that the whole thing be overhauled just because the op doesn't like it, and their explanation as to why, points to the fact that the lfg does not work for them, or that they can't find 9 other people that they like playing with. Rather than asking for opinions on how the lfg could be improved, they use a tone that sounds like a demand that it, and what it is used for (raids in this instance), be overhauled. Additionally, from what I've been reading, people aren't so much looking for a middle ground to meet, as they are digging themselves in their positions and demanding others to proclaim that they are right.

>

> tldr: Most people don't know how to effectively communicate.

 

It’s tough, when we have people saying we want legendary armor from login rewards and for Anet to give us 5000 gems for free. At the same time advising that the Legendary Armor should be received via effort, yet no one on the pro normal side is not up in arms on raid selling, which leads to the same conclusion. Something doesn’t seem right and it’s kinda off.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> More people playing raids = more resources = more raids...

 

A raid focus would kill this game. I would welcome a speed up for raid development but on the other hand I know that instanced content was never the focus of GW2 nor should it be the focus. I like that raids are in the game but I wouldn't like if they become a focus instead of side content they are right now.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > More people playing raids = more resources = more raids...

>

> A raid focus would kill this game. I would welcome a speed up for raid development but on the other hand I know that instanced content was never the focus of GW2 nor should it be the focus. I like that raids are in the game but I wouldn't like if they become a focus instead of side content they are right now.

 

A 100% raid focus would be awful. If, however, they did have a valid easy mode, one that any player could be expected to farm as easily as they farm LW map metas and the story chapters, then I could see justifying a slight resource migration in that direction. If the content is available to as many players as currently enjoy LW content, then they would not mind having the release cadence sped up a bit for raids, in exchange for LS updates being a couple weeks later. The issue *right now* is that raids are "zero content" to the vast majority of players. If raids were turned into something that players could actually participate in, could work towards the rewards within them, then they would suddenly become "new content," and players enjoy new content.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >It's only a design philosophy found everywhere in the game. You want Auric weapons? You grind Auric Basin for the Auric Ingots. You want Luminescent Armor? You grind Silverwastes. You want Aurora? You do LS3 maps.

>

> Apples and oranges. You're talking about "grind" there, about players *completing* relatively simple activities multiple times. That element would still be in place, at least in the case of easy mode raids. The difference between the current raids and *all* those examples you list is that those events can be completed by almost any player almost every time, which is not *currently* the case with raids. All we're trying to do here is bring raids *in line with* your own examples, not to make them more of an exception.

 

No, they aren't apples and oranges, and the "line" you speak of does not exist. Almost every player almost every time can do Chalice of Tears? I beg to differ. Almost every player almost every time can successfully complete HoT metas? I beg to differ. Try doing one on an empty map and you'll see what I mean. Almost every player almost every time can do the fractal challenges required for Ad Infinitum? Nope.

 

Every piece of content imposes its own requirements on the path to the rewards it offers. And while the requirements are quite different, they all share the same basic premise - they require a certain level of experience with the content in question. You don't complete Chalice of Tears on the first try, you do it after you've tried and failed over and over. You don't enter fractals for a first time and kill Mai Trin under 25 minutes, you do it after you've grinded your way into T4 and learning how to handle that.

 

Raids do precisely the same, and offer precisely the same opportunity to every player, just like every other piece of content does. The only thing that differs is *your own decision* to participate or not. Want to bring something in line with the rest? Try bringing your decision in said line.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> If its so easy to get the gold to buy full set of armor, everyone here asking for easy mode should just buy it and be done with it.

It isn't, of course. But not because of difficulty, but because of time investment involved. And only because of time investment involved. Thus, it is extremely easy _if we consider the time factor to not matter_ (as some people in this thread claimed we should do).

The fact that it isn't as easy as that in practice is a clear indication that this assumption is wrong - the time matters, and matters a lot. Thus, increasing time involved as a balance to lower difficulty _is_ a valid approach.

(buying raids is just that - it lowers difficulty to zero, but significantly increases the time. If that's okay, then anything in between should be okay as well)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen.

>

>

> Again, *literally* **nobody** is saying that.

 

Except everyone who wants easy mode to be able to get the standard raid rewards.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> >Do i have to quote you again ?

>

> I'm not denying the quote, I'm denying when you dialed what I actually said up to 11 in your analysis. I want easier raids, I do NOT want "effortless" raids. I do not advoate for a difficulty level *below* the baseline difficulty of the rest of the game.

>

> >But i'll humor this...I want an honest answer.

> >Are you able to complete T4 Fractals and CM ?

>

> No clue. I haven't participated in them because of the required investment in AR to even attempt it. I kind of doubt that I could, at least as not as easily as I expect from an easy mode raid, but then T4 content is well above the game's baseline as well.

>

>

 

Baseline most of the game IS effortless. If you dont have to focus on goal and reserch + plan before it is effortless.

 

My middle ground is this:

2 precursor collection (for easy and normal)

Easy one require more then just kill the boss (in specific time, without downed.....)

Easy raids dont provide LI

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > >Do i have to quote you again ?

> >

> > I'm not denying the quote, I'm denying when you dialed what I actually said up to 11 in your analysis. I want easier raids, I do NOT want "effortless" raids. I do not advoate for a difficulty level *below* the baseline difficulty of the rest of the game.

> >

> > >But i'll humor this...I want an honest answer.

> > >Are you able to complete T4 Fractals and CM ?

> >

> > No clue. I haven't participated in them because of the required investment in AR to even attempt it. I kind of doubt that I could, at least as not as easily as I expect from an easy mode raid, but then T4 content is well above the game's baseline as well.

> >

> >

>

> Baseline most of the game IS effortless. If you dont have to focus on goal and reserch + plan before it is effortless.

>

> My middle ground is this:

> 2 precursor collection (for easy and normal)

> Easy one require more then just kill the boss (in specific time, without downed.....)

> Easy raids dont provide LI

>

>

It’s not like you are a developer and we are bartering with you to implement an easy mode.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>No, they aren't apples and oranges, and the "line" you speak of does not exist. Almost every player almost every time can do Chalice of Tears? I beg to differ.

 

Well that's a Jumping Puzzle, not the sort of "grind" aspects you were referencing before. Addressing it though, you *only* need to complete it once, it's fairly easy to skip through using Mesmer portals, and it's much more likely that someone would be available to get you up there for free (or very cheap) relative to carrying you to Envoy armor via raids. But as we discussed, I'm by no means defending the Chalice, I think it's a poorly constructed and deliberately unfair JP, and that ideally they would make some alterations to its design, so "whataboutism" really doesn't fit here.

 

>Almost every player almost every time can successfully complete HoT metas? I beg to differ. Try doing one on an empty map and you'll see what I mean.

 

They aren't designed to be completed by empty maps, but finding and joining a map that stands a decent chance is, again, a far easier task than joining a successful raid party out of the blue. I hadn't done Silverwastes in years, but wanted to clear it during the New Years event for MF bonuses, and had no problem finding several active maps. My only real trouble at the time was my ISP was being unreliable and kept dropping me out of the map at random.

 

>Almost every player almost every time can do the fractal challenges required for Ad Infinitum? Nope.

 

Again, not the best example, but certainly easier than getting Envoy armor. I fully support any changes they care to make to Fractals to make acquiring Ad Infinitum easier, that's just not the hill I care to plan my flag on. Nobody has time to engage every cause, that does not devalue the causes they choose to address.

 

>Raids do precisely the same, and offer precisely the same opportunity to every player, just like every other piece of content does. The only thing that differs is your own decision to participate or not. Want to bring something in line with the rest? Try bringing your decision in said line.

 

OR, ask the developers to improve their product.

 

I choose the latter, in case that was unclear.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>(buying raids is just that - it lowers difficulty to zero, but significantly increases the time. If that's okay, then anything in between should be okay as well)

 

It actually *reduces* the time involved considerably, since you can buy gems with cash. Most players can earn the several hundred dollars required in less time than it would take to master each of the raid encounters, so if raid selling is considered a valid approach, it's clearly the most efficient way to get the armor. Again though, I do not believe it *should* be considered valid.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen.

> >

> >

> > Again, *literally* **nobody** is saying that.

>

> Except everyone who wants easy mode to be able to get the standard raid rewards.

 

Nope, none of them. That's just a basic reading comprehension issue, apparently.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Baseline most of the game IS effortless. If you dont have to focus on goal and reserch + plan before it is effortless.

 

This is a matter of opinion that I strongly disagree with. I feel that people who *genuinely* believe that the baseline difficulty of GW2 is literally "effortless" really should have no place in shaping the direction of GW2. GW2 did perfectly well for three years before raids, and two years after in which most players still don't raid. MOST of the players who play GW2 ENJOY the non-raiding portions of the game, so claiming that anything short of raiding is "effortless" just kittens all over them, and kittens all over the people who made that game that those players loved.

 

>My middle ground is this:

>2 precursor collection (for easy and normal)

>Easy one require more then just kill the boss (in specific time, without downed.....)

>Easy raids dont provide LI

 

What is the path to Envoy armor through easy mode alone? It sounds like you're basically setting up a domino course with a bunch of those little walls in the middle so that it can't possibly complete.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > >Do i have to quote you again ?

> > >

> > > I'm not denying the quote, I'm denying when you dialed what I actually said up to 11 in your analysis. I want easier raids, I do NOT want "effortless" raids. I do not advoate for a difficulty level *below* the baseline difficulty of the rest of the game.

> > >

> > > >But i'll humor this...I want an honest answer.

> > > >Are you able to complete T4 Fractals and CM ?

> > >

> > > No clue. I haven't participated in them because of the required investment in AR to even attempt it. I kind of doubt that I could, at least as not as easily as I expect from an easy mode raid, but then T4 content is well above the game's baseline as well.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Baseline most of the game IS effortless. If you dont have to focus on goal and reserch + plan before it is effortless.

> >

> > My middle ground is this:

> > 2 precursor collection (for easy and normal)

> > Easy one require more then just kill the boss (in specific time, without downed.....)

> > Easy raids dont provide LI

> >

> >

> It’s not like you are a developer and we are bartering with you to implement an easy mode.

>

 

I already said i am not a developer. Dont know which one of you said that noone wants to go to middle ground. This is what i would be ok with. Dont want to go further. If it gets easier then i am against it

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Additionally, from what I've been reading, people aren't so much looking for a middle ground to meet, as they are digging themselves in their positions and demanding others to proclaim that they are right.

>

> Agreed, this is why I just cut the nonsense and start from a middleground position. The problem is that the raider crowd seems completely uninterested in budging even an inch.

 

Let's be fair here you're not really starting from a middleground position.

If you disagree please tell me wat the extreme positions are.

 

Multiple people have already stated they wouldn't mind under certain conditions. Who are the ones not budging?

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > More people playing raids = more resources = more raids...

> >

> > A raid focus would kill this game. I would welcome a speed up for raid development but on the other hand I know that instanced content was never the focus of GW2 nor should it be the focus. I like that raids are in the game but I wouldn't like if they become a focus instead of side content they are right now.

>

> A 100% raid focus would be awful. If, however, they did have a valid easy mode, one that any player could be expected to farm as easily as they farm LW map metas and the story chapters, then I could see justifying a slight resource migration in that direction. If the content is available to as many players as currently enjoy LW content, then they would not mind having the release cadence sped up a bit for raids, in exchange for LS updates being a couple weeks later. The issue *right now* is that raids are "zero content" to the vast majority of players. If raids were turned into something that players could actually participate in, could work towards the rewards within them, then they would suddenly become "new content," and players enjoy new content.

 

You wastly overestimate the content from raids for one playthrought. People complain already that LS is too slow, slowing it down further would be one of the worst things to happen. Raids won't fill the content gap. A one day per week activity doesn't fill weeks of nothing. Daily cap instead of weekly is the opposite of casual friendly.

The content is available right now for them. There is nothing that stops them from entering it besides their own decision. Content that is already present doesn't become magically new if you paint it green instead of yellow.

Also some numbers for your 'vast majority'. Didn't we agree we to stop the tea leave reading?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"yann.1946" said:

>Let's be fair here you're not really starting from a middleground position.

>If you disagree please tell me wat the extreme positions are.

 

The extreme positions to the left of me would be things that you accuse us of constantly, but that we do *not* actually believe, such as:

* Legendary armor mailed to every player

* Easy mode as the ONLY option for raiding

* No raids at all!

* Easy modes with the exact *same* amount of rewards as hard mode.

 

The extreme positions to the right of me are:

* No easy mode at all

* If there is an easy mode, it will offer no rewards, making it non-viable out the gate, mwhaha. . . haha.

 

>Multiple people have already stated they wouldn't mind under certain conditions. Who are the ones not budging?

 

Typically the "conditions" they offer are ones that violate the entire point of having easy mode, such as "no Envoy armor, ever," or even "no loot worth playing over at all."

 

My position has two hard lines to it:

1. It must provide a path to Envoy armor, although this path can be slower and involve more repetitions than the current model, short of being punitive.

2. It must have difficulty equivalent to dungeon and living story content, something a random, untrained pug can be reasonably expected to complete.

 

Beyond that, I'm pretty flexible. I feel that the hard mode should be allowed to remain intact and continue to be developed as it has been. I've agreed that perhaps the baseline rewards for existing raids should be *raised* to make them more attractive once easy mode is an option. I've agreed that there could perhaps be a unique signifier for people who have completed the existing raids, like a unique title, nametag flair, or trophy item, similar to Twice Told Legend, something that is *not* a weapon or armor skin, but that they can use to display their achievement to others. I've agreed that the path to Envoy armor via easy mode could be longer to complete than the existing path, even though everyone will be starting it two years later than those who had been playing hard mode.

 

I could choose to argue that the game would be better off without raiding at all, and there's plenty to support that position, but I choose to believe that we can reach a solution in which both sides can get what we want, and the only thing either side would lose would be "the other side isn't allowed to get what they want."

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> OR, ask the developers to improve their product.

 

That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen...

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>You wastly overestimate the content from raids for one playthrought.

 

I don't think it would just be one playthrough. I think that if the rewards were appropriate, players would want to farm it at least as much as they farm the LS maps. It would be something that most players would complete at least a dozen or more times between releases, likely more.

 

>People complain already that LS is too slow, slowing it down further would be one of the worst things to happen.

 

Again, if it was a *significant* slowdown, like the post HoT one? Sure. But I **do not believe for half a second** that easy mode raids would require a *significant* slowdown. I fully believe that any slowdown that occurred would be imperceptible to the average player, it would mean that the patch was finished on a Wednesday rather than a Monday the week before the patch goes out, or maybe that they'd have to push it back a week or two, tops. I know some of you disagree, but I can't run on that faulty premise.

 

> Daily cap instead of weekly is the opposite of casual friendly.

 

I hadn't really considered a daily cap, but one thing they could do is have a split cap. Make it so that the "grand prize," the really interesting thing people would be going for, would have a weekly cap to it, but you could still complete the raid daily to get a decent amount of loot out of it for the limited time invested. That way, the really casual players could stick to one weekly clear (and without speeding up Envoy armor access), while players who were really having fun with it could still do it as one of their daily things and feel their time was well spent. It wouldn't be *so* good that they'd be incapable of resisting it.

 

>The content is available right now for them. There is nothing that stops them from entering it besides their own decision. Content that is already present doesn't become magically new if you paint it green instead of yellow.

 

You can never advance this topic until you give up on that position. Just understand that however much you want to believe this to be true, *it is not true.*

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >No, they aren't apples and oranges, and the "line" you speak of does not exist. Almost every player almost every time can do Chalice of Tears? I beg to differ.

>

> Well that's a Jumping Puzzle, not the sort of "grind" aspects you were referencing before. Addressing it though, you *only* need to complete it once, it's fairly easy to skip through using Mesmer portals, and it's much more likely that someone would be available to get you up there for free (or very cheap) relative to carrying you to Envoy armor via raids. But as we discussed, I'm by no means defending the Chalice, I think it's a poorly constructed and deliberately unfair JP, and that ideally they would make some alterations to its design, so "whataboutism" really doesn't fit here.

>

> >Almost every player almost every time can successfully complete HoT metas? I beg to differ. Try doing one on an empty map and you'll see what I mean.

>

> They aren't designed to be completed by empty maps, but finding and joining a map that stands a decent chance is, again, a far easier task than joining a successful raid party out of the blue. I hadn't done Silverwastes in years, but wanted to clear it during the New Years event for MF bonuses, and had no problem finding several active maps. My only real trouble at the time was my ISP was being unreliable and kept dropping me out of the map at random.

>

> >Almost every player almost every time can do the fractal challenges required for Ad Infinitum? Nope.

>

> Again, not the best example, but certainly easier than getting Envoy armor. I fully support any changes they care to make to Fractals to make acquiring Ad Infinitum easier, that's just not the hill I care to plan my flag on. Nobody has time to engage every cause, that does not devalue the causes they choose to address.

>

> >Raids do precisely the same, and offer precisely the same opportunity to every player, just like every other piece of content does. The only thing that differs is your own decision to participate or not. Want to bring something in line with the rest? Try bringing your decision in said line.

>

> OR, ask the developers to improve their product.

>

> I choose the latter, in case that was unclear.

>

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> >(buying raids is just that - it lowers difficulty to zero, but significantly increases the time. If that's okay, then anything in between should be okay as well)

>

> It actually *reduces* the time involved considerably, since you can buy gems with cash. Most players can earn the several hundred dollars required in less time than it would take to master each of the raid encounters, so if raid selling is considered a valid approach, it's clearly the most efficient way to get the armor. Again though, I do not believe it *should* be considered valid.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen.

> > >

> > >

> > > Again, *literally* **nobody** is saying that.

> >

> > Except everyone who wants easy mode to be able to get the standard raid rewards.

>

> Nope, none of them. That's just a basic reading comprehension issue, apparently.

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Baseline most of the game IS effortless. If you dont have to focus on goal and reserch + plan before it is effortless.

>

> This is a matter of opinion that I strongly disagree with. I feel that people who *genuinely* believe that the baseline difficulty of GW2 is literally "effortless" really should have no place in shaping the direction of GW2. GW2 did perfectly well for three years before raids, and two years after in which most players still don't raid. MOST of the players who play GW2 ENJOY the non-raiding portions of the game, so claiming that anything short of raiding is "effortless" just kittens all over them, and kittens all over the people who made that game that those players loved.

>

> >My middle ground is this:

> >2 precursor collection (for easy and normal)

> >Easy one require more then just kill the boss (in specific time, without downed.....)

> >Easy raids dont provide LI

>

> What is the path to Envoy armor through easy mode alone? It sounds like you're basically setting up a domino course with a bunch of those little walls in the middle so that it can't possibly complete.

 

I started playing after raids and f2p was added. Friends were trying to get me to game but they couldt tell me anything that interested me in endgame. Some time after game went f2p and i heard about dragonstand and raids i tried it and fell in love with combat and style of teamplay.

And thats what i do in this game. Fractals, raids and story.

Core game wasnt interesting for me as a potential buyer.

 

I didnt understand what you were trying to say in second part but my idea is: you can get precursor from easy raids. Its just not for kill but for example kill under time, kill when you were not downed, kill when you were not ported on vg and so on. When everything hit only for 50% you can focus on this and even if you fail you get rewards from the boss.

You dont get Li but you can get it from normal escort (every day there is escort run in lfg) or any other boss if you want to speed things up. Time depends on how many bosses you want to try in normal mode

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > OR, ask the developers to improve their product.

>

> That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen...

 

Again, the easy mode might be more boring for you. That's fine, you will NEVER have any reason to participate in it. For those that would, however, it would not make the game more boring *to them,* and that's the point.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>I started playing after raids and f2p was added. Friends were trying to get me to game but they couldt tell me anything that interested me in endgame. Some time after game went f2p and i heard about dragonstand and raids i tried it and fell in love with combat and style of teamplay.

 

Well, then keep in mind that the game had a much larger population before you got here. I want you to feel welcome, but I also need you to understand that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other players *actually enjoy* the gameplay elements that you are taking a kitten on.

 

>I didnt understand what you were trying to say in second part but my idea is: you can get precursor from easy raids. Its just not for kill but for example kill under time, kill when you were not downed, kill when you were not ported on vg and so on. When everything hit only for 50% you can focus on this and even if you fail you get rewards from the boss.

 

Do you believe that it would be easier for players to achieve those milestones than it would be for them to be carried by a hard mode raid group? If not, then what would be the point?

 

>You dont get Li but you can get it from normal escort (every day there is escort run in lfg) or any other boss if you want to speed things up. Time depends on how many bosses you want to try in normal mode

 

Who would benefit by having them run escort for a couple years to get their LI, rather than running the wider variety of easy mode missions, which they would get bored of less quickly?

 

I'd like you to ask yourself, are these suggestions that you believe would make those players have a fun time, or are these suggestions intended to *punish* them for not enjoying the version you currently play?